It was useful for paper because it helped save time in cutting, folding, printing etc. None of that matters for a phone.

This is such a non issue given that iOS developers already have so many resolutions to test.

But it's not really the same aspect ratio, is it?

Because one is used predominantly vertically, and the other horizontally.

As long as there's this landscape vs portrait difference, how does the aspect ratio similarity actually help?

I always forget the US doesn't use A4 etc. (or do you?)

There are compromises to any proportion decision. A tall rectangle is much more natural to hold than a fat rectangle, especially at the size of this device. The user also has to relearn the location of on screen buttons that have always had a consistent location.

Too wide to fit in anyone's pocket, but the ratio is the sine of 45 degrees! Seems like a very non-Apple thing to do, honestly. My jeans don't care about math.

Surely the next version will unfold twice to reach A3 size

That's not far off the 4:3 of the Samsung Z fold 8. Around 4.24:3.

You mean all two states?

But what's the point?

I mean, I wouldn't hate it if they got into cars

9-9-26 marks a historic day: the day Hacker News discovers how paper sizes work. Though for a group of people who have never handled let alone folded an actual engineering drawing, this isn't surprising.

The American sizes do this too by the way, this isn't some unique ISO eurotrash magic.

Nor did Apple hire origami artists to design this overpriced monstrosity no one asked for.

One big difference from Steve: it isn't the Steve show anymore. The people showing this stuff off are the people who lead the the teams that work on these things.

It's so much cooler to me to see the people closer to the work talking about it rather than just Steve Jobs, as amazing as he was to watch. I'll take slightly stilted any day of the week as a tradeoff.

Ternus did introduce a new rhetorical thing, though. He framed some of the guiding principles during the opening and throughout as ideas originating from himself, not Apple. Cook rarely said "I" in relation to a claim, other than "I'm so proud of" X, Y, Z. That's a bit more product guy, a bit more Opinionated. I am hoping for more of that.

People under estimate how hard it is to talk naturally in front of a camera.

There’s a reason why acting as a profession exists.

Don’t forget about how they desperately try to figure out what to do with their hands.

I do hope John Ternus & his team change it up, but I wasn’t expecting it from this event. He’s only been CEO for 9 days & this was probably shot before then.

There is no matching Steve, but I would like to see Apple try at least one live event again a year. Covid is what brought around the super rehearsed video presentation, and it fit Cook well, but are the days of live keynotes really done?

Apple needs to bring back live keynotes instead of this overproduced TV show.

> Relative to Steve's emotionally-rich casual-coded excited-to-share delivery.

Example 1,494,298 of “most people aren’t Steve Jobs.” Can’t believe we are still doing this comparison. In a few weeks it will be 15 years old.

apple needs to rethink so much more fundamentally. Ternus talks identically to Tim Cook. Indistinguishable. It’s like when Jobs left, Apple became a reflection of the superficial touchstones that Jobs left behind, rather than the CEO defining what the culture is, and evolving it.

I loved the disclaimer at the end of the iPhone Pro model that felt distinctly non-Apple and more akin to a drug commercial, "Usage of heavier models may be limited. Subscribers to certain iCloud+ plans will likely receive higher usage quotas. Now here's Sri to talk about electronics!"

Brand is brand. CEO is not brand.

That’s something I noticed as well. It was very subtle, but my brain was telling me that something was off and the way people spoke was very artificial.

Give him 6 months... usually it takes a bit to change things around (including marketing / pr presentations).

But, he has been part of Apple for too long, and probably has internalized that style.

Hope he brings good change though...

Craig F with his constant foot-shuffling...

a very neurotypical response

People are insufferable with the amount of criticism

Like no one is above reproach and def everyone is open to criticism, it to open a thread with 1200 comments and see this as the first comment was super annoying

So much stuff to discuss and we are focusing on some presenters tone? jfc

> Who is like, "damn I wish I had a tablet that I could fold up and still barely fit in my pocket"?

Me. I get why people like small phones. But, I've have the iPhone Jumbo Huge edition for a long time now. I use my phone as a pocket tablet 10X more than as a phone.

Looking at the Duo specs https://www.apple.com/iphone-duo/specs/ vs my current 12 Max Pro specs https://support.apple.com/en-us/111874 it looks like the differences I care about are

1) 1878 pixels over 4.64" vs. 1284 over 3.07" 2) Default camera mode is 48 MP vs 12. Other modes are surprisingly similar. 3) A much faster CPU

I'm sure there are 1,000 more small differences. But, my 12 Jumbo Huge from late 2020 still runs great. If I were to upgrade, I'd get the Duo. We'll see how much longer I keep waiting, I guess.

> Who wants bigger phones? Who is like, "damn I wish I had a tablet that I could fold up and still barely fit in my pocket"?

I have bad eyesight. I've worn bifocals since I was 16, and I'm twice that age now. I literally used to carry around a 7" tablet in my pocket in college because I didn't have a smartphone yet. I want to be able to make things big so I can read them easily and not have to scroll constantly.

The other night I was at an event and pulled out my iPhone 13 mini to show some people a video I had taken -- the two people on either side of me exclaimed and pulled out their iPhone minis and we all laughed about holding on to them until they turn to dust.

At this point it's feeding screen addiction.

When I go for walks I only bring my smart watch. If I break an ankle or someone has an emergency we can talk. But I can't pull up a bench and doomscroll for an hour.

A tablet the folds up and fits in my pocket is perfect. Tablets are better for reading and watching things - they just kinda suck to carry around.

> Why do they insist on every new phone being bigger than the phones before them?

Folded, I get, I want it to be a "regular size", but the only reason I don't like big devices is because they are clumsy to store in my pocket and use/grab one handed. If I can use it BOTH ways, now I have a choice. One handed for quick usage, and two handed for extended sessions. For $2K, yeah, I'm going to want a full fledged computer in my pocket.

I can't help but notice how many times they mention "viewing content" during the demo.

It almost feels like they make smartphones not to be handy tools for the digital age (who am I kidding), but for ultimate content consumption.

Lots of people. There’s a reason folding phones have been a big story for years.

Maybe they only sell to 5% of users but they sell and at top prices, meaning more possible profit.

And you can’t grow the iPhone at the current sizes. Everyone who once wants at one of those sizes already has one. You either have to convince them to upgrade or switch, and those are both hard.

However, if you give them a choice of something they haven’t had before, it’s way easier. Get the people who wanted to fold and went to android and would like to come back. Get the people who have a max and want something bigger. Get the people with an iPhone 13 who are simply curious enough to do the upgrade, but otherwise would’ve stood still.

Gotta sell.

I like my Apple phone 4s too it was fine in its time but these days I need a bigger phone because the eyesight isn’t exactly what it used to be. I don’t need a giant phone, but I need something a little bit bigger than a 4s.

You are, I'm afraid, in the minority.

Apple produces a "small" phone (S or Mini series) only every few years because that's enough to saturate that market.

Well, I'm with you and I was very excited when the iPhone Mini came out. However, the capabilities weren't equivalent to the regular-sized Pro (probably due to space reasons). So I didn't buy one despite loving the size and now cannot complain that it was discontinued.

IMHO, one of the reasons I've been delaying an upgrade is because the standard sized iphone 13 ( not even pro ) I've had for a few years now is big enough already, anything larger just would not be ergonomic ( and I have large hands )...

I want the rest of you to have big phones, so that the concept of "mobile friendly websites" can die. This is my sole interest in phones. So I hope the Duo can be held comfortably in landscape orientation, but I guess in fact it can't be held comfortably at all. Oh well.

I carry an iPhone because I love the size. I carry an iPad to read. This would be nice, although I prefer to keep these devices separate. The iPad isn't connected to my life, so it can enter my bedroom.

It's not a 2000 buck problem though.

The answer is people want that. It's not a novel idea. Huawei's folding phones are even bigger and they sell like hot cake at least in China.

I also want a small phone. I was happy with a Sony Xperia X Compact which is one inch shorter than my current Samsung A40, which is shorter and lighter than almost everything else.

Me. I love my Pro, and this year I'm switching to Max. My eyes (at 48) aren't what they used to be.

My iPad is my primary computer so... me.

"Who wants bigger phones?"

Everyone who buys larger phones instead of the iPhone Mini. The market decided that.

That's why I prefer the flip format, over fold. Typing this on a Flip 3 I've had since 2021, very happy with it.

The obvious answer is that people actually want bigger phones and you're in minority. But no, let's pretend what you personally want trumps that and ridicule them for it instead.

They tried mini iPhones. They didn’t sell well. Unfortunately the market is just not there.

> Who wants bigger phones?

That's a mix, people like phones of all sizes.

> Who is like, "damn I wish I had a tablet that I could fold up and still barely fit in my pocket"?

But this question is silly. When your reference point switches from people buying phones to people buying tablets, there's a huge demand for tablets that are more portable.

the iphone mini unfortunately did not kill nor do most small iphones

Yeah I’d love another mini, but alas.

>I want smaller phones.

You want a Zanco phone. They are tiny. Apparently designed to be small enough for prisoners to keep in their orifices.

How many times do HN users have to be told they are not the majority?

If you look at phone sales Pro Max out-sells the regular Pro

Regular people like big phones

As a dev who regularly works on apps for both platforms, I think one of the main causes for poor support for form factors beyond a standard smartphone on Android boils down to Google refusing to give developers fully fleshed out APIs to support said form factors.

Instead, they just hand you some poorly documented loose parts in a box and tell you, “good luck” and you’re on your own to fill the gaps. Compose is a little better about giving the tools you need than the preceding Android Framework, but it’s still much more “assembly required” and “batteries not included” than the UIKit+SwiftUI world is.

Many iOS apps built using system components will behave 90%+ correctly on the Duo by just compiling against the iOS 27.1 SDK because there are well supported methods of doing things that Apple can leverage to reduce dev work. In contrast, on Android there's 10 ways of doing anything none of which get full-throated support (on top of all the other ways devs invent), and so any time it gains support for a new form factor almost nothing is automatic and it all falls on the devs’ shoulders.

> "A large fraction of the flaws in software development are due to programmers not fully understanding all the possible states their code may execute in."

This is a quote from John Carmack and should sit over every developers monitor. At the same time, OS designers should be doing everything in their power to reduce the number of states a developer has to think about.

It would depend on the sales volume. For a long time the iPad has been available and many developers simply are content to have a stretched version of their iPhone app on their iPad, because the sales volume isn’t sufficient. If foldable phones sell like iPads, this could very well happen to them too.

I don't want to be pessimistic, but I can see a single app now showing two different feeds to doomscroll.

Developers will design apps for Apple's foldables.

100%. It was so funny to see how for years, everyone on HN was harping on about how well a smaller iPhone would sell. Then Apple finally released the iPhone mini and nobody was buying it, so they had to kill it after a couple of iterations.

Basically, try to do the opposite of what HN is saying and you might just create a successful product.

Contrary to popular belief, Apple did not kill the mini because iphone 13 mini sales were poor. And they were poor.

Apple killed it because Mini 14s are illegal in Europe. There are tons in the US though.

Being average person is like winning lottery. Everyone is making products for you.

I agree. The demos were great. They really showed off how things you already do today are "better" on two screens. This is in contrast to the Vision Pro where the demos were of things that were neat but I can't see myself needing (watching 3D captures, watching a big virtual cinema screen).

I think this will be a hit, but the $2k is a bit much for me to even consider getting one. Obviously they'll likely drop that price over time.

Is it really the first generation though? The screen is obviously 1st gen for Apple, but you'd think the rest of it is not: OS, battery, camera.

I find it sad that they're doing it all pre-recorded.

The Apple Vision Pro was a rare early entry into a field. Usually they wait until the technology is established and the userbase is just starting to take off, as is currently the case with folding phone displays.

Samsung has already worked out the major kinks for folding displays, over dozens of products used by multiple phone manufacturers including themselves, and Android has worked out how to handle the various use cases between the outer screen and inner screen, when closed, open, or partially open, so Apple can pull from the current state of the art and launch with a more fully developed product, as they usually did before the Apple Vision Pro.

They're still as cringe as they've been for years; with fake hand movements and marketing-pilled bs postures.

10% wider than a pro max. I can't imagine that's going to feel good in your pocket

“Useful computer” is subjective. It seems to be difficult for HN users to imagine a device that doesn’t have a terminal for example, but the overwhelming majority of users simply do not care. Many of them manage just fine with a smartphone as their primary (if not their only) computer, so clearly they are useful enough.

Globally, mobile+tablet crossed 50% of web traffic in October 2016 (51.3% vs. desktop's 48.7%) [0]. For the world minus HN, we’re entering the second decade of phones being useful computers for the most common definition of useful.

[0](https://gs.statcounter.com/press/mobile-and-tablet-internet-...)

I think it's clear that Apple has recognized that their target markets don't care to have useful computers. Just look way back to when Steve Jobs was still alive and he was talking about how "PCs are going to be like trucks. Fewer people will need them. And this is going to make some people uneasy."

They could certainly add features to make them more like general purpose computers, but there's a bit of product development and engineering "tax" they'd have to pay over time to maintain that aspect. Much easier from a product development standpoint to create products that provide a walled-garden experience, especially if that's what most customers want.

Apple has had a patent[1] for like a decade at this point which involved placing an iPhone into a slot on a laptop so it could be used in a laptop form, with the phone itself serving as the touchpad.

[1]: https://www.tomsguide.com/news/apple-patents-device-that-doc...

Edit to add: the phone itself is intended to be the main processing unit, the “laptop” is just a screen and keyboard.

Samsung dex really excited me when I tried it, but it still had a little ways to go. I am shocked it's not a bigger priority.

Android is getting close, with Google adding desktop support akin to Samsung's Dex when the phone is connected to a dock.

Have you seen how the average person uses their phone?

You want what, a terminal that you type on w/an onscreen keyboard?

At this point I don't even really need a phone. Nobody makes calls anymore and I can use my watch for 911 calls.

What I need is a more portable iPad. But that would cannibalize iPhone sales.

That seems to be entirely the purpose of this device. Instead of just a larger display, it's meant to provide a "second monitor" for multitasking or more context.

With terminal emulators, tailscale, local and remote agents, there's never been so much computing capability accessible from your pocket before.

It's easier to make an existing thing better. But far harder to come up with a new idea.

The moment apple ship MacOS on their iPads, sales for their macbooks will all but collapse.

Apple's lack of vision and fear of innovation. Jobs is gone. We're back to 90s Apple. Dumb ideas become dumb products, and no one has the balls to say, No.

How are you gonna do mandatory age verification on a full fledged computer?

You can get something quite useable these days by plugging a pixel into a USB dock with a monitor and a keyboard + mouse

do you not consider your phone a "useful computer"?

Artificial limitations open many new avenues for new and exciting revenue streams.

This is the biggest disappointment, imagine running a full blown "Ubuntu Touch" that gives you the freedom of Linux with full root access. This is the biggest failure of legislation in the 21st century so far that has enabled a strict Android/iOS duopoly.

I sincerely hope one day we can free these hardware devices from the shakles of their software and run anything that's possible.

Until such a time iOS devices are strictly off limits until at least a grapheneOS can run iOS at a minimum.

> I worry this will suffer from the same lack of developer interest as the AVP did

Pretty sure that developer interest is not to be a problem. The Duo will sell more units in a month (or less) than every AVP ever sold.

Apple told developers in June at WWDC to not assume fixed screen sizes. Well-written apps will work on any screen size thanks to Apple's APIs.

Some apps will need to be tweaked to take advantage of some Duo features no doubt, but I suspect that's not going to be a deal breaker.

> I worry this will suffer from the same lack of developer interest as the AVP did

Apple can force iOS devs to do whatever they want. It may be basic support, but Apple devs will do whatever Apple tells them to do.

Wait for 2nd gen, always

To get close to the same functionality as the Duo, you'd buy an iPhone 18 Pro ($1199) plus an iPad mini ($599); that gets you to $1,798. If you want more storage than the entry level iPhone 18 Pro or iPad mini, you're going to surpass $2000 pretty quickly.

Just checked the price in my home country (Brazil) and it's fantastic: the Duo starts at BRL 21999, which is roughly USD 4300.

You could do the leasing route if you upgrade every year. Might pinch less.

It's high, but Apple's financing arm has it at $84/month, which is a bit more stomachable if you really want it.

I don’t think it’ll face the developer interest problem. Devs go where the money is and consumers seem to love foldables.

I like that blue though.

I don't know, $1999 seems almost kinda reasonable considering how much an iPhone Pro costs and how utterly fucked the current memory prices are.

I would think it has far more to do with content consumption than it does eyesight.

Screen size would have always been big, absent production costs and marketing price. Over time display tech just got better and cheaper to finally do it.

> After a while, I think dust would inevitably get in the hinges and wouldn't fold flat. I've seen demos in stores of newer gen Samsung foldable phones and it looks like those wouldn't fold flat

For your first point, the iPhone duo is rated IP 68 Dust and Water protection. Literally none of Samsung's book foldables so far have achieved this IP rating.

I trust Apple to do better here; for example, after about ten years, no one has caught up to Face ID yet.

I trust Apple likely did better, though they’ve made bad decisions before (Studio Display camera).

My biggest worry is the lack of Face ID. I love Face ID so much. I know I can do the Apple Watch unlock, but I don’t want to. I just want my phone to immediately look unlocked to me. and Face ID did that the vast majority of the time.

So I’m very curious to hear what the hands-on impressions from people are. Is the screen good? Can you notice or feel the crease? Is there anything else wrong? Is not having Face ID as annoying as I suspect?

At least there’s something really interesting this year. It’s more than just faster and better cameras, which is nice. And having actual aperture blades on the pro is great.

But this is more interesting.

Is an inner screen camera really worth it? There's already a camera cutout on the outer screen, plus you can open the phone and use the full-size camera with the outer screen, which results in much more flattering imagery than the wide-angle lenses selfie cameras use. It's like taking the difference between an under-screen selfie camera and a regular selfie camera, and applying that again.

It makes sense to have one screen for an as-large-as-possible uninterrupted display, and another for maximum utility.

I like that Samsung doesn't cut as much corner off as Apple, but ideally I'd like to find a manufacturer that doesn't cut corners at all. Even though I'm not likely to buy another iPhone product, I am excited that Apple doesn't cut holes in their interior display, because that'll probably get other manufacturers to do the same.

> It's priced identical to the Samsung Fold 8.

Not around here it isn't. The iPhone Duo starts at $2999 for the base storage. The Fold 8 is $2399 and even the Fold 8 Ultra is $2699. This only confirms that Apple has been steadily pricing themselves outside what I'm willing to spend. Can I afford it? Yes. Will I get $3k of value from it? No. This one is not for me at this price.

I suspect there are plenty of people out there who habitually buy the most expensive of what Apple has to offer in any category. I guess Apple was leaving money on the table by not having anything in this price range in the first place.

> It's priced identical to the Samsung Fold 8.

The Fold8 is $1,899.99 (street price significantly lower as usual), the Duo is $1999.

The under-screen camera essentially doesn't matter. For the three times you're in a meeting with it, it'll hold. For everything else, you'll use the primary camera and the front screen.

Apple usually gets heat for not being the first to a feature, even when they’re the first with an implementation that’s actually good, not just a gimmick

Of all the ISO standards I wish the US would adopt, ISO216 would be it for me, hands down. I recently needed to buy some A6 thermal paper, a size no one seems to offer anymore. And who cares! Why would they! I can just buy an A4 sheet and cut it in half twice, no fuss.

The aspect ratio is the biggest problem with foldables.

The main reason I'd want a bigger display is for more immersive content like videos, which are typically 16:9. On a Pixel Fold, you have all the added complexity of the fold to make the videos you watch on the train 1cm taller.

The iPhone Duo unfolds to be the same height as the iPhone Pro Max. Sounds like it has the exact same problem - a bunch of added complexity without a practical use for it.

-----

> Touch ID is integrated into the side button

Another major flaw with the foldable form factor - it's hard to distinguish holding the device e.g. to pocket it and holding the device to use it. My foldable does the smartphone equivalent of butt-dialing way more often than any phone I've had before because it likes to unlock itself when I'm putting it in my pocket

I enjoyed the subtle shade (presumably at Samsung) when they discussed existing foldables having an awkward size, and choosing their new ratios and the asymmetric form factor. One edge square, one edge rounded, so all edges are rounded when open.

My pockets don’t care much about ISO paper standards (not sure why you call it metric? That doesn’t have much to do with the metric system as far as I’m aware?)

But it makes it really weird to type one handed I think.

As a reading device that is great, but as a phone that is wide.

I see a possible future where we have ultra thin devices that can be successively unfolded to larger formats based on this ratio, making size-based product variety obsolete. After that we get screen origami.

Nearly impossible to actually buy A4 paper in the US

Apple's submarine introduction of A* papersizes to the US.