Every org has a code of conduct and this is nothing new. How seriously it is taken in each case is a different issue. Code of conduct usually amount to some rules that say “don’t be an asshole to others”. Can’t see why this is problematic or “virtue signaling”.

Not even virtue, codes of conduct just signals leftist control over an organisation.

CoC are the HR department of open source.

A relic from the ZIRP era when people had time and job security to engage in politics and creating drama on Twitter instead of doing their job.

Ah the good old days!

It's helpful when people are being assholes to point to a document describing how they're being an asshole and to cut it out

CoCs are useful at least for autists. They don’t have to be unique for every project.

A good CoC for most projects is: “tl;dr: don’t act rude or illegal”, followed by a detailed explanation of what is rude or illegal, ending with “project maintainers have final discretion”.

Microsoft is actually just a group of people as well.

I have no connection to Microsoft but I think this take is terrible.

Part of maturing and growing up, for me, was realizing that there are really very few people who truly deserve scorn and disrespect[1]. Those I disagree with politically, mostly think they’re doing the right thing and they think that if people only understood, they’d change their tune (and that’s basically what I think of them). Those “big companies” like Microsoft, Atlassian, etc, their incentives line up - and literally must line up - in a fashion where they make software that frustrates many users constantly. It really isn’t malice or incompetence - no one, from the intern that wrote some snippet of JS on GitHub dot com, to Satya Nadella, is either intentionally phoning it in nor waking up in the morning asking himself, “how can I frustrate the efforts of people out there?”

And anyway, because most people are trying their best, regardless of how the outcomes line up to affect my life and my interests personally, really do not deserve my scorn and derision. If I were in their situations, very little if anything would actually change. So spouting insults at these people who I don’t know, and whose roles I don’t really understand, is really not a mature, productive, nor fair thing to do.

[1] if you are curious I’d say murderers, etc. dominate that group.

They are blasting the product tbf. The people part is a small part of it. And apparently at least distracting the HN Community from their point.

You cannot divorce a product from the people who built it. The product reflects their priorities and internal group well-being. A different group of people would have built a different product.

The product isn't some result of a series of "oopsies". The worst aspects of bad and/or user-hostile software products are that way because the people working at these companies want them to be that way.

Unless you want to call them just that incompetent. I assume they'd complain about that label too.

In short: No it's not "the product", the people building it are the problem. Somehow everyone working in big tech wants all the praise all the time, individually, but never take even the slightest bit of responsibility fro the constant enshittification they drive forward..

The product was made by people. Or by AI which was made and controlled by people.

There's no stupid product, only stupid people.

The original loop is:

while (time() != timeout) {;}

The fixed loop is:

while (time() < timeout) {;}

Would you perhaps have preferred if they referred to it as "unprofessional" or "sloppy" instead alluding of monkeys?

To me all those mean the same thing, except the latter is more flavorful and makes my eyes less likely to glaze over.

> Imagine how you would feel if you were the person who wrote this code, and now you are being called a monkey in front of thousands of people on the internet.

Er.. so? Why should anyone be allowed into a position of responsibility where their code impacts millions of people if they can't handle the tiniest bit of strong feedback? It was, after all, a pretty egregious bug.

> Certainly you've made mistakes in your code before...or are you saying you've always written flawless code without errors?

I've definitely made mistakes, and also accept that my output might have on occasion been "monkey-esque". I don't see what's insulting about that; we are all human/animal.

> Is a racist screed acceptable to you as long as the following paragraph references technical issues correctly?

I'm not the morality police. Nobody should be. I'd still take the article on its technical merits. As a random example, if Satoshi's paper called people using the banking system cattle, I'd still continue reading it.

> Imagine how you would feel if you were the person who wrote this code, and now you are being called a monkey in front of thousands of people on the internet

It would be absolutely fine, nobody is named specifically. He wasn't like Josh Examplemann working on Actions is a piece of shit that botches any feature he touches. Nobody is going to remember a blog post and forever hold anyone that worked on Actions to an unhirable status. And personally, I think it would be good for people to feel some shame for having implemented a feature in such a terrible way. It's not like they were told by their managers to commit these the way that they did. Calling into the sleep binary wouldn't even be more work.

Whoever is behind the new React Start Menu in Windows

along with whoever is responsible for the Chrome Web Environment Integrity

along with whoever is behind the design of OSX Tahoe

along with anyone who is working on Windows Copilot that screenshots your screen

should be ashamed of themselves. The more articles that do that, the better. They are not doing good.

> You can express dissatisfaction and anger „naturally“ without calling people losers and monkeys.

I can't speak for others. But if I am screwing up as badly as GitHub is, I'd rather someone calls me a loser and monkey for it. It's like someone splashing ice cold water on my face and showing me the reality. It's going to be very uncomfortable, yes. But I'll learn from it and try not to screw up so badly again. I find this kind of natural outburst refreshing really.

Yeah, its rude to actual monkeys - they did nothing wrong!

I think it's a breath of fresh air. Don't want to be called out like this then stop fucking up.

If you call people at work monkeys when you don't like their work, you're closer to Kindergarten than you think.

A lot of us here have real world jobs where people don’t call us losers or monkeys when we fuck up. This isn’t some kind of hypothetical Big Rock Candy Mountain of professional conduct. It’s just what working life is like for a lot of people.

if they call their employees monkeys, certainly. I think every big tech company is well aware of lawsuits regarding a hostile work environment, work place bullying, etc.. they all have company wide training on these topics.

Having been in that situation before, if I even get a hint that I would be treated this way, I'm backing out of any interview. I won't say for no amount, but for no amount they would consider reasonable compensation would I think it's worth it. People commit suicides over this stuff. This isn't a joke. Life is too short. I mean just seeing other people treated this way is horrible on its own. I can't believe people defend this stuff. People need to learn to be ashamed again.

Linus losing is temper over a contributor messing up is not the same as calling people who maintain a free service (github - unless Zig was paying) monkeys. Correct me by all means, but did Linus call someone a personally denigrating name like that?

Either way, I like linux but I've avoided operating systems like freebsd and openbsd for less, so I agree. I've said plenty enough against Linus when he did lose his temper and started cussing at people.

And to be clear, I consider people who defend him (and in this case Andrew) far worse of an individual than the original offenders. People mess up, they're led astray by being put in positions of leadership and authority. That I get, and that's why i'm calling him out here. If he was random person, I wouldn't have bothered. But the enablers and defenders are the real problem. I hope you're not one of them. If you are, I consider you people responsible for every single work place bullying and toxic environment out there. People do great things without being classless uncivilized bullies.

I don't know about that. in my view, you can call him a murderer, genocidal, sociopath, anything related to his actions. But calling him an epithet, comparing him to an animal is a different thing. Even physical violence is more tolerable. of course people can say whatever they want in private, i'm talking about public discourse. terms like "monkey" and "dog" have been used across cultures to mean really nasty things. It's dehumanizing (literally!), it says as much about the speaker as it does about the subject.

Clearly, my distrust is based on Andrew's publicly displayed character, not an analysis of historical behavior. When you see a Chef not wash his hands after using a restroom, you should avoid eating at their restaurant, even if you have no proof they don't wash their hands in the kitchen prior to cooking.

The important observation for me is that he didn't know where to draw the line, and this is regarding people he doesn't work with, unknown/random Microsoft employees. Will he cross the line if someone he does know and trust does something he disagrees with? I would like to give him the benefit of the doubt, but the bar is high when it comes to trusted software like programming language compilers.

I wish Zig all the success, but only if it's community and the tech community as a whole can hold it's leadership accountable instead of making excuses and defending him like this. It's ok to tell people you admire and respect they screwed up.

Yes, calling people monkeys is a bad decision.

I wish :)

It sure reads like it was meant satirically to me. Whether one finds it funny or offensive is up to the reader though, and I assume the GP is basically saying an article should be written such that "or offensive" isn't reasonably on the table.

Here’s a “high performer” realising that it was his toxicity that was the problem, and he needs to fix it.

> This week people in our community confronted me about my lifetime of not understanding emotions. My flippant attacks in emails have been both unprofessional and uncalled for.

> Especially at times when I made it personal. In my quest for a better patch, this made sense to me. I know now this was not OK and I am truly sorry. The above is basically a long-winded way to get to the somewhat painful personal admission that hey, I need to change some of my behavior, and I want to apologize to the people that my personal behavior hurt and possibly drove away from kernel development entirely.

And he did. And the project he heads is better for it. You don’t need to call people names to run a project well. Linus learned that. It’s time that other people who failed to grow up learn it too.

He’s talking about people who wrote the code. Those are actual people. You’ve abstracted them away as “Microsoft” and decided they don’t deserve any empathy.

Apparently there's some specific US cultural history of people calling black people "monkeys" as a racist insult, and so some people from there immediately leap to assume that any use of "monkey" as an insult is that.

Because they deserve to know they're making the world a worse place.

A high-profile repository like Zig moving off of Github is as loud a message as one can give. Tossing in "losers" and "monkeys" only muddies the delivery.

The most effective message GitHub can receive is when they don’t get to invoice you.

GHA in particular is a hot mess, I’m as surprised as a decade ago that anybody is using this crap. IMHO it’s bugs as a service kind of product, and the bugs start at the core design with the ‘pretend yaml but actually an unholy mix of shell, js and json’ language.

I have a lot of understanding for such personalities too, I'm probably quite like this myself although I try my hardest to not open my mouth like this. For example I got blocked by Jonathan Blow over a simple question on twitter but I don't think too badly of him now, it's just a miscalculation on his part or him trying to optimize his life as a passionate person. But you really need to make sure to be right when you are putting other people down. I mean REALLY right, you need to tripple check that what you are doing is going to help an honest person to improve themselves. So my opinion is: You can be super critical but you have to be right.

I'm not going to touch the political parts. But my main point is that the migration itself is obviously not well done, he isn't even migrating issues nor migrating perks for sponsors, splitting the community and attention apart. You could even say that he's critical of people who keep using github sponsors. In my view the text is implying that you are hurting ziglang if you keep using this thing that is a liability for ziglang... oh the horror of giving someone money in a way he doesn't like. People like this forget that contributors are doing free work for them too, it's not just one way. Everything that creates friction for them is real work you just caused them.

not the dichotomy we're actually talking about here...

> blowing it up out of proportion is just as toxic

One person decided that something wasn't for them. How is that in the same league as someone in a leadership position being unprofessional?

When confronted about LLM writing completely broken tests the guy said the funniest thing: "It knows what it’s doing but tends to be… lazy."

I'm a big fan of LLMs but this guy is just a joke. He understand nothing of the code the LLM generates. He says things like "The LLM knows".

He is not going to convince anybody to merge is PRs, since he is not even checking that the tests the LLM generates are correct. It's a joke.

As an aside, he originally titled the thread "A complete guide to building static binaries with Julia (updated for 1.12)", with no mention of AI. That got me excited every time I opened the Discourse, until I remembered it was this slop. :/

This one https://x.com/joelreymont/status/1990981118783352952?s=20

I made the mistake of poorly documenting that PR.

Lmao absolutely right

It wasn't their stated goal, if you read linked article. The commenter got it wrong.

There's technically a way[1], but you'd have to do it every 6 months which is not great.

https://docs.github.com/en/communities/moderating-comments-a...

I guess you could make a bot that closes any opened PR with a message that PRs are not accepted on Github and a link to the contribution docs.

Yikes, the PRs on the Linux repo are quite terrible. At least there's a bot to auto-reply with the correct procedure.

https://github.com/torvalds/linux/pull/1370

As another poster noted, you can disable it by limiting all interactions (6 months at a time). It is not ideal, but it does work to for PRs. You should also close all current PRs when you do that so users cannot push to those branches as well.

Oh come on.

Micros$$$$ft owns github.

We don't need to give some pretend sympathy.

When you can afford to have good things, and you're not, don't come crying about getting called bad names.

Actions is bad.

> I dare anyone who is delusional enough to think they can create something better to actually make something better

Actions speak louder than words.

Zig is leaving because of the issues they mentioned.

> People tried other services like GitLab and realized it is slower, uglier and overall worse than GH and came crawling back.

Maybe. I guess we'll see.

I think the OP has been pretty clear that they're not happy with it, and, they're putting their money where their mouth is.

Clearly, just complaining about broken things isn't working.

Maybe a couple more big moves like this is what GH needs to wake up and allocate some more resources (that they, can categorically afford) to fixing things.

Yes I want to know too. Where can I run this test matrix for less than $100/mo unbilled (where half the “cost” is from macOS alone): https://github.com/ncruces/go-sqlite3/wiki/Support-matrix

I built a similar matrix to test wazero (of which I'm a maintainer).

> Where else would the CI service for a Microsoft product be invented?

FYI Azure has its own CI service and that's pretty bad too.

I agree it’s unprofessional, but at least we’re talking about GHA, even if tangentially, because there’s a lot to talk about and not much of it is good.

I would agree if they weren't so clearly deserved. Calling shit out as being shit is fine.

And yet the amount of work time I've missed out on from github being down is slightly concerning in retrospect. I imagine the smaller scale of codeberg will actually lead to more uptime despite chaos monkey's best efforts.

Maybe, but isn't it too soon to be mainstream anyway? Until the language and standard libraries hit 1.0, it seems like Zig is for early adopters. Having too many of the wrong kind of users is just going to be frustrating for everyone.

Well maybe we are seeing this the wrong way. Maybe that's exactly the mindshare they want.

People who get angry when they see bad code, so much to call the developers lackeys and monkeys.

And an organization whose code base doesn't have to be on a mainstream server to attract exactly those who agree with this choice.

And I wonder why Codeberg and not a self-hosted Forgejo/Gitea instance? I also don’t like GitHub but this bandwagon to Codeberg doesn’t seem quite alright to me. There must be another way than jumping from one centralized git hosting service to another.

Thanks. My information was outdated.

I’m glad they have robust support for email based patching but it’s a hard sell for people getting in to the platform.

I'm confused, the incident is that he wrote a document detailing repeated bad behaviour from a well known community figure? And this is a bad thing?

And that second link is really grasping at straws lol

Holy shit this escalates completely. I had no idea any of this was going.

Is sr.ht tainted now or still a decent place to host code? I can't quite tell.

> dmpwn

Kinda horrible to see that the 4chan bigots use the same strategy to try to discredit drew devault, and implying things of ownership through their own created fake accounts and smearing campaigns. Pretty much all allegations on that page are circumstantial evidence, especially the bot ownership parts that sircmpwn even took down while citing those bigots using it to scrape child porn.

And then the dude of dmpwn posting things on image boards with the tag dmpwn, and forgetting to remove that from screenshots? lol, really?

Having experienced the same kind of doxxing attempts by 4chan bigots, /pol/ and kiwifarms, I think I am qualified to comment on how they operate.

Maybe someone needs to summon the Antichrist a second time to thin out the herd, huh?

DeVault's controversial takes are pretty similar to the ones that Kelley expresses in this post, so I don't see much misalignment here.

Not all of us sold out to corporations.

Admittedly some of those may be a bit ... unusual. Like the guy who created TempleOS.

That is fine, but they adopt or delegate corporate opinions onto others. I feel that if you need to lie to people because of money, your job is not honest. (I don't mean you; I mean people who need to do this because otherwise they may lose their job etc...)

Except for the "disabilities" part, which is problematic to classify, wouldn't your description broadly fit the word "losers"?

EDIT: I don't understand the downvotes. It's not a value judgement on Github employees, it's about the meaning of the word "loser". Go back to your teenage years. What's a loser? Someone, often through no fault of their own, keep being in a bad situation, having the "short end of the stick". What characteristically makes them losers is that they lack the audacity to snap out of it.

Isn't that an accurate definition of what "loser" generally means?

Anyone being forced to use Azure has, at least temporarily until they can find a new job, lost at life, not necessarily through any fault of their own. The poor souls probably also have to use Teams.

> works flawlessly

> intermittent outages

Those seem like conflicting statements to me. Last outage was only 13 days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45915731.

Also, there have been increasing reports of open source maintainers dealing with LLM generated PRs: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46039274. GitHub seems perfectly positioned to help manage that issue, but in all likelihood will do nothing about it: '"Either you have to embrace the Al, or you get out of your career," Dohmke wrote, citing one of the developers who GitHub interviewed.'

I used to help maintain a popular open source library and I do not envy what open source maintainers are now up against.

My thinking as well. If people don’t like Microsoft, the last place to start their quixotic adventure would be GitHub.

I don’t use Azure or Windows. At work I push against Teams and actively try to persuade customers not to use Microsoft products. The reason isn’t even ideological - most of the time their products suck and the dev support is bad. VScode may be an exception, I’ll give them that.

Given the trajectory of Microsoft products it stands to reason Github’s future is uncertain. Also Git is ultimately a hosting platform that any competent software shop can recreate; the people behind the platform matter more than the platform itself.

So you are ok with 2FA, right? If you contribute code there.

Now - what if you are not ok with it? What can you do?

> Almost offensively usable

I think you conflate two points here. One is how useable github is. The other is: control. At which point are you no longer ok with what a private company does? This is not solely about Microsoft alone by the way.

> intermittent outages

The outages have gone from "almost every Friday" to "several times per week".

Denying code not on it's merits but it's source is childish.

This argument obviously makes no sense. Especially when one of the examples is a 7 character diff.

But it's fine to say "this PR makes no sense to me explain it better please" and close it.

> A blanket ban on LLM-generated code is at least arguably a reasonable policy.

No, I don't think it is. There's more nuance to this debate than either "we're banning all LLM code" or "all of our features are vibe coded".

A blanket ban on unreviewed LLM code is a perfectly reasonable way to mitigate mass-produced slop PRs, but it is not reasonable to ban all code generated by an LLM. Not only is it unenforceable, but it's also counterproductive for people who genuinely get value out of it. As long as the author reviews the code carefully before opening a PR and can be held responsible, there's no problem.

Purity testing. I mean, one of the first lines in their announcement is relating to politics.

Libel LOL

Bro you need to go touch grass. There’s a whole world outside of online forums and programming.

Ziglang is a small organization supported by donations, Microsoft is one of the largest companies in the world. If anything, they're punching up.

Calling people losers isn't classy, but if I were a well-paid Microsoft employee I'd laugh all the way to the bank that some community funded purist called me that. If it's supposed to be bullying he isn't very good at it.

Hmm, that seems plausible, yeah. It's unfortunate munchler didn't say something like that. But it seems like now people on HN are dogpiling on this Andrew guy? I imagine he'll feel the same way reading this thread, won't he? Surely there's a solution for bullying other than more bullying?

Regardless, it's hard for me to imagine that many readers will find great intellectual interest in a long thread about what a terrible person Andrew is.