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In Praise of Print: Reading Is Essential in an Era of Epistemological Collapse(lithub.com)
240 points by bertman 11 hours ago | 212 comments
mlsu 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The experience of passive consumption (cable TV, tiktok, etc, pointed out in another comment here) is essentially the experience of psychological obliteration.

When you get sucked into reels, you go from "here" to "there," and in the process, while you are "there," your entire whole self is destroyed. The same psychological phenomena happens to gambling addicts, alcoholics, or users of heroin. It has fewer physiological downsides and side-effects as those things; the only material loss you have is the loss of time.

But far more remarkable than that it's simply a waste of time, and rarely articulated, is this psychological loss. The destruction of the self. That echoes through a person's life, to their relationships, their self-construction, etc. It is those echoes that we are now dealing with on a mass sociological scale.

By the way. "There" has a lot of upsides too. People can be creative, productive, expressive while they are "there" too. Creating, being funny, being social, etc. That's why this is so hard.

kleinsch an hour ago | parent | next [-]

You’re commenting on an article about reading, which is also a solitary passive consumption activity. I suspect you’re not trying to make the point that reading books destroys relationships and self construction, so this seems like a roundabout way of saying that your favored passive consumption activity is better than what other people choose.

diob an hour ago | parent | next [-]

I will say that it is different to me, but perhaps others consume things like tiktok or instagram like I do books.

To me, I do not reminisce or think about tiktoks / instagram posts having an impact on my life or how I think or how I interact with others. Five years from now I do not think I will fondly remember a post, but probably I'll think about the books I read. I kind of know this, as I'm thinking about books I read in highschool over 20 years ago at the moment.

I suppose they give me things to think about beyond the moment I'm reading them, they make me feel things I otherwise wouldn't etc. It's possible for these things in media like movies, and even tiktok too I would imagine.

The reverse is also possible for books to be junk that you read and enjoy in the moment but soon forget.

But I also think the algorithm / profit motive behind tiktok and social media in general tends to mean that it's more likely to be junk, and it's not the person's fault who gets pulled into that. They're brutally effective skinner boxes, imo. Just like some games (mmos and now live service for even shooters).

There's something missing in the current media landscape that the old one did have, which was finality. You read a book, it's over. Similar with older movies, but now we have a bit of the "keep up with the starwars or marvel" thingy which is a bit live service like if you think about it. A constant desire to make folks feel like they have to keep up. Yeah things had sequels before, so I'm probably just waxing nostalgic here.

I'm rambling, sorry, just wanted to share some of my current thoughts.

I'm sure if tiktok didn't exist, these folks would be putting on 24/7 soap operas instead. The desire for a background thing to passively consume has likely always existed. Be it radio, whatever.

The algorithm does seem to be ruthless these days though, god if I know what I mean by that.

aziaziazi 44 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

I wouldn’t consider reading as a passive consumption. You have to 1. Lead and follow a tempo, essentially moving your eyes at the speed of you thought 2. Using imagination to associate what you read with other knowledges.

TV and ticktock don’t need 1. You can interact with a remote or you scrolling-thumb but interaction is not required to consume.

2. Isn’t a necessity neither but people do use TV, ticktock or music to "empty their mind" by thinking to nothing else but the consumption flow. You can do that with reading, but that’s not an experience people usually like and they come back to the place their mind left.

swatcoder 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> When you get sucked into reels, you go from "here" to "there," and in the process, while you are "there," your entire whole self is destroyed.

I think many can personally attest that either your use of "you" is waaaaay too presumptive or that your use of sucked into represents a mode of engagement that only certain people experience at certain times.

Your rhetorical flourish of making it all sound universal and damning is pretty, but it doesn't really hold.

Most people, most of the time, even if they are heavy total consumers, are just idly filling bits of time the way they might nervously chew on their lip or pick at a finger. They may get regularly caught up in the behavior without conscious intent but are far from "obliterated" and easily escape it when other concerns arise. That's a long long way from the addictions you compare it to.

pests an hour ago | parent | next [-]

But then you have people like my one friend, who is scrolling non-stop literally from waking to sleep. It's hard to even have a 3 sentence conversation as he's constantly elsewhere.

yawboakye 37 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

pretty optimistic review of the power of the individual/mind contra the really fine-tuned algorithms of engagement. the hook is the “filling bits of (idle) time.” the accounting when all the filling of bits of time is done seems to add up to a huge sum. the extra time definitely would have been borrowed (read: stolen) from somewhere.

swatcoder 29 minutes ago | parent [-]

I agree that algorithmic feeds and even just having endless distractions in a hip pocket are terribly unhealthy. I thinks its wise to be very mindful with both and that they can quietly steal from other experiences that one might prefer in hindsight.

But I don't have a way to square that perspective with what the original commenter suggested about "psychological obliteration" and "addiction akin to gambling or heroin"

People won't even pay for most of these pocket distractions. They're clearly not consuming or addictive in the same way as those others things, where people often make explicit wantonly destructive choices in service to their addiction.

And realistically, that they're a different kind of risk with a different kind of impact may make them even more dangerous from a health-of-society perspective, because we don't have great cultural insight or hygeine practices to deal with them. If we want to change that, we need to recognize that they don't represent the same danger we're used to.

So I'm not dismissing that they're bad. I'm just dismissing the original commenters' deeply strained and distracting characterization.

nataliste 24 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

>But far more remarkable than that it's simply a waste of time, and rarely articulated, is this psychological loss. The destruction of the self. That echoes through a person's life, to their relationships, their self-construction, etc. It is those echoes that we are now dealing with on a mass sociological scale.

Cervantes, 1605:

>In short, he became so absorbed in his books that he spent his nights from sunset to sunrise, and his days from dawn to dark, poring over them; and what with little sleep and much reading his brains got so dry that he lost his wits. His fancy grew full of what he used to read about in his books, enchantments, quarrels, battles, challenges, wounds, wooings, loves, agonies, and all sorts of impossible nonsense; and it so possessed his mind that the whole fabric of invention and fancy he read of was true, that to him no history in the world had more reality in it...

Now we're all Men of La Mancha.

bostonwalker 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Just finished reading Amusing Ourselves to Death on the recommendation of some commenters here.

Strange that Neil Postman's work is not once mentioned in the article. His basic argument in 1985 was that the shift from print to TV was already causing epistemological collapse through the transforming of not just education, but also news reporting, political discourse, and the functioning of government into forms of entertainment.

One thing that stuck out for me was his description of TV news as a "psychotic" series of "Now... this" context switches, where each event had to be over-simplified into a basic narrative that people could grasp within 15-45 seconds, and where the most disturbing story (e.g. a gruesome rape and murder) could be chased up in the next second by a fluff piece about a group of grannies having a bake sale, with no ability of the viewer to reflect on and absorb what they just saw and heard.

Viewed that way, the YouTube algorithm and TikTok represent a natural progression of the way that TV news has already primed us to consume information. In fact, almost all of the arguments made in Amusing Ourselves to Death have only become more relevant in the age of social media. More than ever, we are losing our ability to place information in context, to think deeply, and to tolerate what makes us uncomfortable. No doubt these things would be reflected in test scores.

On the other hand, the one possible saving grace of an internet world vs. a TV world could be the relaxing of the restrictive time and ratings constraints. I would argue there are niche content producers out there doing better contextualizing, deeper thinking, and harder-hitting investigative work than was ever possible on TV, and that this content is hypothetically available to us. The only question is: are we able to withstand the firehose of highly available, highly irrelevant short-form dopamine hit entertainment in order to find it? On the contrary, I think most of us are getting swept up in the firehose every day.

bloomingkales 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

One thing that stuck out for me was his description of TV news as a "psychotic" series of "Now... this" context switches, where each event had to be over-simplified into a basic narrative that people could grasp within 15-45 seconds, and where the most disturbing story (e.g. a gruesome rape and murder) could be chased up in the next second by a fluff piece about a group of grannies having a bake sale, with no ability of the viewer to reflect on and absorb what they just saw and heard.

David Milch kind of touched on this when he talked about John from Cincinnati. He goes to say that TV News is actually TV shows that we watch, like the Iraq War, and the American public basically get bored of television shows and thats when the news changes shows. The show is exciting at first, thats why we watch, but then we get bored. The implication here is that we don't get outraged, we get bored.

exceptione 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

    The only question is: are we able to withstand the firehose of highly available, highly irrelevant short-form dopamine hit entertainment in order to find it?

Simple but effective solution:

1. You bring news or debate? You will have to comply with a journalistic code.

2. You want to optimize revenue? You think about infotainment, click bait etc? You better not, because you will have to comply with the journalistic code. No pretending here.

3. The board of journalistic media should be 100% separate from any commercial interests.

Or democracy will perish eventually.

RiverCrochet 3 hours ago | parent [-]

The following item counters and possibly invalidates the above assertion "simple":

- News reporting is straightforward insofar as requiring a code. Opinion about news is where it gets messy - if someone has a TV or radio show where they render their opinions or thoughts about news events, that's first amendment territory.

The following item counters and possibly invalidates the above assertion "effective":

- Journalism probably must be scalably funded to scalably exist. We see currently that people are not willing to do that and that opinion heads pervade the "news and information" space. So requiring compliance to a code in order to profit off of journalism doesn't work for the same reason minimum wage doesn't really work - people can just choose not to interact with code-compliant journalism much like companies can just not hire people.

The following item counters and possibly invalidates both the above assertions "simple" and "effective" at once.

- You cannot separate any board of X from political interests, which are much more important if commercial interests are explicilty separated from X.

> Or democracy will perish eventually.

None of the above counters or invalidates this statement.

exceptione an hour ago | parent [-]

(Although the response is not gibberish, I can´t feel certain that I reply to a chatgpt response (?))

You take it too static. If you are waiting for the type-safe, leak free hammered approach, you will achieve nothing.

I want you to take this approach to get you going in the right direction.

  Opinion pieces
- Opinion pieces are indeed a way where editorial boards go cheap, outsourcing meta thinking to external entities/influence. Those editorial boards going of the rails there is not an act of nature, but like in the case of the NYT a consequence of commercial ownership. As part of the code any opinion piece should be clearly marked as such, as well as the interests of the author.

  Journalism probably must be scalabe

There is no need for scalable mega media corporations. In countries with 1) public news organizations[*] and 2) required independent editorial boards, commercial titles are not as going overboard as in the US.

  You cannot separate any board of X from political interests
You can, but you can never be absolute 100% perfect.

A peculiar, mindset has been programmed that ethics in society is defined in what what terms the lawyer wrote. A good society is all about what you collectively allow or disallow, no scheme, no law can perfectly defeat all bad actors all the time.

The social part of "society" is an activity. If you as normal people don't show up, then it will be a Murdoch party.

___

* independent from but financed by the state

heresie-dabord 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Both composing text and reading map closely to thinking.

The physical act of writing , especially with pen, pencil, or quill, involves planning and structuring (both on-page planning and grammatical construction).

For generations of learners to have lost this ability must eventually have a heavy social cost.

asdff 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think there is an assumption being made of the pre tv “informed person” that either never really existed as such, or merely modernized into someone who might consume their internet content in the form of Atlantic articles over tick toks and pod casts. Most people have always been poorly informed and driven to emotional content over the plain facts. A tale as old as the first chieftain we chose to emotionally believe as sacred and elevate above fact and ourselves in the premodern times.

bostonwalker an hour ago | parent [-]

Naively, I would think the same. But in the first part of AOTD, Neil Postman argues pretty convincingly that America in the 18th and 19th centuries was the most literate, bookish society on Earth and in the later parts of the book that that heritage was lost with the invention of the telegraph, radio, and later TV.

In other words, TV and the internet as technologies are not "neutral" in their effect on society, they have actually made us dumber in a real sense.

alexashka 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Strange that Neil Postman's work is not once mentioned in the article

Strange that religion isn't mentioned in the article.

Religion is the bedrock of epistemological 'collapse'.

magic_smoke_ee 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Amusing Ourselves to Death

From 2010-2017, I observed young men in cafes who were housing- and economically-insecure retreat into video games, conspiracy theories, scapegoating groups of people and organizations they knew nothing about, unhealthiness, and sleep deprivation. So much for the utopian delusion of automation "freeing up people for leisure", instead addiction and escaping from reality are becoming more commonplace.

MichaelZuo 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Is there any other viable method for organizing TV?

I doubt even the median HN reader can hold a dozen complex ideas in their head at the same time, certainly not for longer than 45 seconds without starting to confuse them.

Let alone the median general public.

marcosdumay 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

You can stop pretending that the contents of the news-show has any relation to reality.

IMO, the entire problem comes from this one lie. But you see... a lot of people wants this propaganda machine.

Also, nowadays you can stream deep journalism that people can adjust to their time availability. We usually call those "documentaries". Most of the stuff that carries that name is psychotic garbage too, but informative ones do exist.

MichaelZuo 2 hours ago | parent [-]

How does the relation of news shows content to ‘reality’ matter?

Even if the announcers were reading complex fan fiction stories they would still need to break it up into tiny chunks.

wholinator2 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Probably not, as long as we continue the requirement that all information conveyed to the public must be done in a way that is maximally profitable to the producer. As long as information must be profitable, it will inevitably cease to be information and turn into entertainment soon enough. When was the last time you saw a TV Station that wasn't majority ads?

asdff 3 hours ago | parent [-]

At the same time its not like the harder information isn’t available. One can find factual news and pieces of information. This is what the policy wonks who craft policy that the pr wonks spin into soundbites have to be able to find and read to understand the world after all.

Its simply not fun nor satisfying for most people. News isn’t to be informed for most people. It is for entertainment like any other fodder content shoehorned into some free minutes of your day. And that’s ok because as long as some technical people need to actually get things done, there is good information and data out there for you to actually learn about the world. It just will be in some dry .gov website or some other source perhaps instead of distilled down to a 2 min article written to a 6th grade reading level with a catchy headline on cnn.com, but thats OK. You will learn to appreciate the dryness and technical language.

southernplaces7 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The title and apparent argument of this confound me somewhat. For those of us who read many, many books very frequently, but stick mostly to digital versions simply out of space and access convenience, it's not hard to feel as if we're somehow being looked down upon because we're not hauling around a bundle of weighty tomes..

Why should print be so specifically necessary if a book's content is what defines it? That I might read, say, Umberto Eco, in digital makes it no less intellectually valuable than if I bought a paperback version, or if you want to get really fancy about things, a hard cover, if those are still even released...

If anything, being able to carry hundreds of books of all kinds around with me nearly anywhere on my Kindle, or even on my cell phone, makes it all the easier to read more voraciously. With this it requires no extra effort beyond that of having with you a device that you'd in any case carry, and thus taking advantage of many more spare moments between daily activities..

IncreasePosts 33 minutes ago | parent [-]

I read digital and dead tree, but there is a spatial understanding I gain from books that I don't get with ebooks. Like, if I want to re find a passage, I usually have a physical sense of where in the book it is, and can flip to it within 10 or 20 pages. That's the major difference for me at least between the two.

Sam6late 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

My 2 cents: 1- 'The Department of Education’s most recent survey, released in June, was sensational: it found that text comprehension skills of 13-year-olds had declined an average of four points since the Covid-affected school year of 2019-2020, and more alarmingly that the average drop was seven points compared with the 2012 figure. The results for the worst-performing students fell below the reading skill level recorded in 1971, when the first national study was conducted.' More here https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/why-printed-books-a...

2-Bloomberg has this one recently 'The Print Magazine Revival of 2024: Several factors are driving this revival but the focus is a niche and on high quality which translated into resources,aka money, it also cites the following:

Nostalgia and Tangibility: Many readers still appreciate the tactile experience of reading a physical magazine. -Niche Markets: Smaller, independent publications are thriving by catering to specific interests and communities. -Strategic Repositioning: Established brands like Bloomberg Businessweek and Sports Illustrated are adapting by reducing frequency and focusing on high-quality content.

I have been in print media since CMP Media Win Magazine and it will end next month. I can assure you that resources for high quality print journalism is no longer there, I am talking about capable editorial talents and other production means, photographers, graphic designers etc. From 20 photographers pre-COVID to one with a dozen freelancers for example that applies to the rest departments.

SoftTalker 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The COVID school closures and remote learning years will prove to be the biggest negative educational/developmental impact on a generation that we've seen in a long time.

MarcScott 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

And it disproportionately hit the poorest in society the most. My kid had his own room to work in, his own computer to work on, and WFH parents to help him out. He was not, massively, negatively impacted.

In my work, I was in touch with families with multiple children at home, no computers, maybe one or two phones, and no broadband connection. The kids, for all intents and purposes, just lost two years of education.

analog31 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

At least it will lay to bed the sentiment that nothing is learned at school, and that we all could have just stayed home and taught ourselves to code.

It also challenges the belief that what education needs right now is disruption.

archagon 4 minutes ago | parent [-]

I don’t think it will. See: https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/nov/27/republican-b...

oidar 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>I have been in print media since CMP Media Win Magazine and it will end next month. I can assure you that resources for high quality print journalism is no longer there, I am talking about capable editorial talents and other production means, photographers, graphic designers etc. From 20 photographers pre-COVID to one with a dozen freelancers for example that applies to the rest departments.

What happened to the talent? Have they moved industries or is there just not enough cash to pay them? Something else?

igor47 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

In "Slouching Towards Utopia" there's a lot of emphasis on "communities of practice". I think HN is a great example for software people. I wonder if the hollowing out of print media begins a vicious cycle where the community of practice also decays. People leave the industry, connections don't persist across jobs, fewer events, fewer new people coming in and getting excited, etc...

xethos 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

First lack of budget to keep them there full time, then they'll re-skill and change industries due to lack of job opportunities. Sooner or later they won't be able to easily go back, because tools, styles, and publisher and reader tastes change, as well

If you spend a decade or three learning and perfecting your trade, and spend a decade away from it without practicing, you'll be rusty (at best) regardless of what the job actually is

This fuels everything from shipbuilding to the military industrial complex - you practice and improve by constantly doing and refining, and your nation can end up a world-leader in designing microprocessors or building supersonic fighters

randysalami 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The middle class is being liquidated

typewithrhythm 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Are demographics controlled for here? We know the proportion of foreign born has been increasing since the 70s, are these results attempting to remove the effect of non-native speakers?

hmmm-i-wonder 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

>foreign born

Its probably more useful to distinguish between foreign educated vs born here.

Interestingly the last stats I remember seeing about ESL students is they tend to out-perform english students in a number of subjects depending on the age group, so factoring them out might lower the overall stats and show an even worse trend among native born english speaking American students.

bayindirh 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

There's another, more global research: https://www.afterbabel.com/p/the-edtech-revolution-has-faile...

red_trumpet 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Funny typo in the subtitle.

> Ed Simon on What Sven Birkerts Got Right in “The Guttenberg Elegies"

The book is called "The Gutenberg Elegies". Gutenberg was the inventor of the printing press. Guttenberg[1] is a german politician who became famous for plagiarizing in his PhD thesis.

[1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl-Theodor_zu_Guttenberg

tomgp 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

For me Guttenberg is an actor famous for Police Academy, Short Circuit, and Three Men And A Baby https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Guttenberg

rpeden 5 hours ago | parent [-]

His role in The Day After is the one that always stands out in my mind.

Anthony-G 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

There’s also a confusing typo in “the ceding of material books to the ephemeral gauze of the online”. I presume “gauze” was intended be “gaze”.

edflsafoiewq 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Why presume that? "Gauze" makes sense.

Anthony-G 5 hours ago | parent [-]

I read the sentence a couple of times to try to figure out what the phrase “ephemeral gauze” was intended to convey but failed to make sense of it. So, I figured that “gaze” may have been the intended word, i.e., readers pay particular attention to text while they’re in the process of reading it (gaze) but that it’s quickly forgotten when they move on to the next unrelated thing they see on the Internet (ephemerality).

I’m only familiar with gauze in the context of first-aid kits and other medical usage so I’d appreciate hearing your interpretation of “ephemeral gauze”.

edflsafoiewq 4 hours ago | parent [-]

As opposed to the solid materiality of books, the "material" of the internet is an "ephemeral gauze", a thin and shifting fabric (a mesh, literally a web) on which it would be impossible to apply ink, to hold rigid, etc.

Anthony-G 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Thanks. That makes sense.

bux93 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's not what you know, but who you know. Any type of mass-media is fodder for the have-nots, while the haves get their information from trustworthy sources through their in-group. The more addictive facebook, tiktok and twitter are, the bigger the premium is of being part of the right group. Whether the memes you consume are in print is entirely incidental.

alexashka 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Any type of mass-media is fodder for the have-nots

Tautology.

> The more addictive facebook, tiktok and twitter are, the bigger the premium is of being part of the right group

There is no causal link here.

It's been important to be at the right place (group) at the right time always.

Social media being more or less addictive or existing at all changes this banality not.

ndjdjddjsjj 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Well just change your URL to something better, right. The curse is not the lack of information but the lack of will to change the channel from whatever feeds their (our!) biases.

mihaic 9 hours ago | parent [-]

If drugs flood my community, you can't say the solution is simply "just don't do drugs, duh". If you put the burden on the population when everything in society works against them, it's not productive in any way.

nverno 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> you can't say the solution is simply "just don't do drugs, duh"

But that is obviously the solution at the individual level, and it is always productive to put the burden of solving your own problems on yourself like OP suggests.

pjc50 9 hours ago | parent [-]

But it's not an individual problem! Me not doing drugs doesn't prevent me from being impacted by people who do, and the same goes for people who consume poisoned information sources.

nverno 8 hours ago | parent [-]

I mean, it's both right? It's easier to work on fixing policy if you're not a drug addict reading poisoned info.

mihaic 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Sure, it is both. And in this type of situations I think the more important one to tackle is the systemic one, so that putting the burden on the individual is made manageable.

To give another analogy, if you want people to recycle, you need to create recycling stations in their area, and not force them to drive 50 kilometers to recycle a plastic bottle. That burden of infrastructure is on the government unfortunately in some part.

TeMPOraL 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The individual solution is insufficient in this case. Once a problem like this becomes a strong signal at the level of population statistics, it means there's a systemic cause that's stronger than most people's willpower.

blackoil 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Society is flush with lots of drugs tobacco, alcohol, sugar, junk food, social media, reels... At society level, better laws and campaigns may work best but at individual level you'll get best ROI by focusing efforts on disciplining yourself and your family and friends.

ndjdjddjsjj 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

My main point is there isn't some Illuminati with access to good info you can't get for free.

In the drug analogy I am saying most addicts know about rehab. The conspiricy isn't hiding all the NA groups.

exceptione 4 hours ago | parent [-]

You would have a better main point when you started to question how this accident could happen:

  Oh oopsie, I am the owner of highly popular media, that by accident does everything to not talk about subjects that are highly damaging for society, but that, if they would, would be highly detrimental to my and my business partners interests. Also, by accident, instead of bringing real investigative journalism looking at the big picture, my media brings a firehose of addictive, emotionial pulp of no relevance.

The problem is: we are naturally attracted to junk that tickles are emotional belief systems, for example some ideas we have about immigrants. It takes active THINKING to go against your gut feeling.

How do you do that when you

  1. were never taught to take that painful step of doubting your deepest held memes
  2. were brainwashed by endless affirmation via infotainment
  3. are living in an infotainment environment were half of your countrymen believe things like "the election was stolen"?

You are proposing to bank on someone already deeply burdened by debt.
mandmandam 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> the haves get their information from trustworthy sources through their in-group

Then why are their actions more harmful than any other class? I see them:

* Starting proxy wars, fueling climate doubt, lobbying/destroying governments to allow every kind of degradation of every commons.

* Paying people 6 or 7 figures to confuse and divide the people earning 5 or 6 figures.

* Apparently utterly ignorant of their legacy, which will be one of murderous self-interest and absurd delusion.

Do all their "trustworthy sources" feed their biases and class interests, their self-delusions, their greed? It's astounding how people can have all the facts and teachers in the world, while dodging genuine understanding of everything most important.

asdff 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Part of it is a sort of pascals wager being done, where it becomes rational and logical to play this game as it is for yourself however unsavory, because the incentives for playing it as such are high enough where people will always do it. Altruism towards the collective species fundamentally takes a backseat for individual and kin survival. There are plenty of species where the mother will even eat any offspring who don’t flee them after birth soon enough because the incentives for the mother even out way that small affordance of altruism to kin. Biology is about entropy not emotions at the end of the day.

pjc50 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There's two things going on here:

- things like the FT and the Bloomberg terminal continue to be reliable, because people are paying them to be reliable and are making decisions based on the news; but those are for the "financial middle class" who are still doing something that could be called a "job"

- people like Musk pick news sources which confirm their biases, and are at risk of spiralling off into a Fox News hole of untruths, because they're too rich to be adversely affected by poor decisions or things that turn out not to be true.

mandmandam 8 hours ago | parent [-]

> things like the FT and the Bloomberg terminal continue to be reliable

"Reliable" doing some heavy lifting here.

Sports figures and statistics are reliable. Stock tickers are reliable. Neither will ever lie to you, but neither are they likely to teach you anything of real value.

FT and Bloomberg are extremely biased toward class interest; in what they choose to cover, in how they cover it, etc.

Did they ever speak out against torture, or illegal war? How much? Did they ever go into the long term advantages of Jill Stein's economic plans; or Bernie's? How much?

The fact that we spent over $8 trillion in a murderous money laundering scheme should have been front page news every day for years. The costs of our incredible and historic inequality are rarely discussed, and if they are, it's in the most limp manner imaginable. The opportunity cost of all this fuckery, from a rational economic perspective, is mind blowing.

The Overton Window is now looking onto bipartisan genocide, after decades of bipartisan illegal war and an extreme agenda of Islamophobia.

> people like Musk pick news sources which confirm their biases

People like Musk buy news sources to spread their biases. Same for Murdoch, Turner, Bezos, etc.

seabass-labrax 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I think the reason why the FT, among others, don't spend much space on human rights issues is because they are inherently transactional publications in nature. You have to pay to subscribe, and those who do expect something in return - I suspect that this is usually a sense of being 'in the know' on business matters. Obviously knowledge of Jill Stein's manifesto is not going to make its readers any money in the foreseeable future.

I suppose I'm defending the FT in the sense that there is no alterior motive, I believe. Compare this to the tabloids, which don't charge for online access and make money by peddling particular business or political interests - mostly shady business, I think most would agree. I'd therefore trust FT on the facts, albeit probably not for wide coverage.

mandmandam 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> I suppose I'm defending the FT in the sense that there is no alterior motive, I believe

No ulterior motive? I really don't know about that.

They're better than most, because they generally tell the truth - a shockingly low bar - but it's a specific type of truth, as seen from a specific and very narrow window, from a deliberate vantage point.

Always viewing the world from that specific window belies a motive, conscious or not, to maintain a highly destructive status quo. They are not seeing the forest for the trees, while writing factual and detailed reports on the least consequential tree bark facts.

Which is fine, if tree bark facts are your bag, I guess - but I'm more concerned about the rapidly deteriorating forest.

mistermann 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> How much?

Such an important (and often unpopular) followup question.

hmmm-i-wonder 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>Then why are their actions more harmful than any other class? I see them:

Lets assume all people when given the opportunity will do what is in their own best interests first.

The less power you have, the more working with others is in your own best interest.

The more wealth you have, the more power you have and the less you _need_ to work with others to achieve what you want or need, so you have an increased ability to weigh what is best for you vs what is best for everyone.

At some point the wealth/power split is so much that you can effectively stop caring about what everyone else wants and pursue what you want and what benefits you.

So while they may have better information, they aren't incentivized to decisions that are less harmful to everyone.

> Starting proxy wars, fueling climate doubt, lobbying/destroying governments to allow every kind of degradation of every commons. Paying people 6 or 7 figures to confuse and divide the people earning 5 or 6 figures. Apparently utterly ignorant of their legacy, which will be one of murderous self-interest and absurd delusion.

All of those can be leveraged for profit if one is cynical and self-serving enough. Most of 'them' that fall into these categories know to some degree the actions they take are harmful to others, and frankly they don't care. Either in their own self-interest, or deluded interests of whatever group they identify with.

alexashka 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Maybe what's most important to them isn't what's most important to you.

Have you contemplated such possibility?

mandmandam 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes, the ultra wealthy have different priorities to what I would call important. The yachts, deregulation, tacit (or not) support for torture, illegal wars, pollution, private jets, ostentatious displays of conspicuous and pointless wealth, etc, leave that in no doubt.

Were you trying to say that maybe all that destruction in the pursuit of insatiable greed could be 'good' somehow? Like Zorg's little speech [0] about the benefits of destruction (the broken window fallacy)?

0 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkFAcFtBD48

alexashka 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> It's astounding how people can have all the facts and teachers in the world, while dodging genuine understanding of everything most important.

You said they are dodging 'genuine understanding'.

I am saying you aren't the final word on what 'genuine understanding of everything most important' is.

In other words - you are using lots of words to say 'I want others to do more of the stuff I want them to do and less of the stuff they are doing because the stuff I want them to do is obviously good and the stuff they are doing is obviously less good'.

Thing is, almost everyone thinks this. Given that almost everyone already thinks this way and the world isn't what you want it to be, maybe something about such a worldview is off. Or maybe we just need more of people like you in positions of power and you'll fix it :) Where have I heard that one before?

exe34 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

profit. they have the best information money can buy and they use it to make profit.

Hanlon's razor doesn't take into account the fact that they have a perfect motive.

mandmandam 7 hours ago | parent [-]

> a perfect motive

It comes across almost trite, but it's still perfectly relevant:

> Canada [and The West], the most affluent of countries, operates on a depletion economy which leaves destruction in its wake. Your people are driven by a terrible sense of deficiency. When the last tree is cut, the last fish is caught, and the last river is polluted; when to breathe the air is sickening, you will realize, too late, that wealth is not in bank accounts and that you can’t eat money.

- Alanis Obomsawin

This isn't rare or hidden knowledge. Billions of people know this for a fact. Versions of this phrase go back well over a hundred years.

Yet the media and political classes do everything they can to diminish such "sentiment" as "naive" and "childish" "wishful thinking"; with or without the tacit understanding that this is what their owners demand.

cafard 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Will the last tree be cut? New England has much more three cover than it has a couple hundred years ago.

mandmandam 4 hours ago | parent [-]

> Will the last tree be cut?

It's a metaphor (though in many parts of the world it's a simple fact); but yeah, it could be global some day. I wouldn't put it past us. We've lost countless species already.

We've been abysmal to trees. If we were to keep losing forest at our current global rate we'd lose the last tree in 400-800 years (though tbf this is decelerating right now).

New England has more tree cover than 200 years ago - great. Europe too. Is 200 years ago a good reference point though? Isn't that when we chopped like 80% of our forests down for industrialization?

Anyway, so the centers of Empire are green(ish). How's the Amazon doing though? How's South-East Asia? Central Africa?

And our new forests - are they old growth and diverse, or monoculture Sitka spruce? Organic, or doused with glyphosate?

And then there's the climate, which we are fucking up faster than scientists predicted... Can trees adapt in time? ... Would trees survive nuclear holocaust?

I'm not saying Bladerunner was a documentary. But we're on course for catastrophe, no doubt about it; and the relentless pursuit of ever more capital via externalized costs is why.

cess11 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You really think the elites are generally better informed than the rest? They don't fall prey to stuff like celebrities, gossip media and so on?

I haven't seen any sign that this is the case among politicians where I live, or among the few quite rich people I've looked into the lives of, mainly through their email and interviews. Compared to the leftists in my "in-group" they're generally very uncritical, poorly informed and pretty narcissistic.

Nevermark 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

"Elite" has so many meanings, it is near worthless without some tight context.

Most people who are really good at something, and became successful for it, primarily became good by doing. Some of those people read and developed complex thought, and likely and rightly give great credit to that. But many others? Not so much.

On the other hand, I think the quality (or the direction of quality) of a society as a whole has a very strong correlation with the percentage of people who read deeply and widely.

I am not only surprised by how simplistic many people's views and reasoning are, but how unaware they are of the world. And how unaware they are that there are people around them that know so much more.

They are not just myopic, they don't have a map, and are unaware other people have them and expand them.

I had a desktop wallpaper of a visualization of a large part of the universe, the beautiful webbing and voids, where galaxies are pixels or less. An aquaintance asked what it was. When I told her, she stared at it like her brain had just crashed. She couldn't process, couldn't believe, the picture, the concept.

People unfamiliar with that artifact is no big deal. But people not having anything to mentally connect it to when they encounter it is scary.

cess11 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Power, like money, is mainly inherited.

FredPret 4 hours ago | parent [-]

This sounds more like a slogan, a belief, than a fact.

It’s not true for the extreme top end: [0]

Here’s a Yahoo Finance article citing several efforts to investigate inheritance vs self-made wealth in the upper middle class: [1]

We keep electing new politicians and buying the latest and greatest thing. Technology keeps revolutionizing everything.

This leads to a ton of churn at the top as incumbents are replaced.

What may fool you though is that all successful people are similar in important ways (Anna Karenina principle). But they are not the same people.

[0] https://www.chicagobooth.edu/review/billionaires-self-made

[1] https://finance.yahoo.com/news/79-millionaires-self-made-les...

latexr 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> It’s not true for the extreme top end

Any extreme is, by definition, unusual. You don’t need to be a billionaire (which is what the articule you linked to focus on) to be considered powerful or wealthy.

Tellingly, that articles notes that:

> The proportion of those in the list who grew up poor or had little wealth remained constant at roughly 20 percent throughout the same period.

Which suggests that inheriting power and money does make a difference in your chance of success. They continue:

> Most individuals on the Forbes 400 list did not inherit the family business but rather made their own fortune.

But one does not follow from the other. Inheriting a business is not the only way to have a leg up. If you’re well off you have the opportunity to risk going into some venture on your own and fail, because you have a safety net. Furthermore, your affluent family can and probably will make a difference in your business. I’m reminded of a piece of news a while back where a couple of rich kids were bragging they made their company successful “from scratch” but upon further inspection into it was revealed their customers were rich friends of their parents.

cess11 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

There is no self-made wealth. You can't become wealthy without the labour of other people.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/apr/03/all-billion...

The article you linked was a bit fuzzy, seems they counted people like Thiel and Musk as 'entrepreneurs' rather than inheritance because they didn't keep running a family company. But them being wealthy is absolutely connected to their families being privileged and the nasty, nasty crimes they profited from.

FredPret 3 hours ago | parent [-]

You know you’ve gone off the deep end when you call Musk an “entrepreneur” in quotes instead of what he is - a regular, if excellent, entrepreneur.

Having a leg up due to coming from a well-off background invalidates nothing. These top entrepreneurs and politicians typically grew up upper-middle class or as members of the minor rich; they rise to positions of prominence from there.

That’s fundamentally different from inheriting power even if you’re a dunce as kings once did.

ninalanyon 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

But they are better informed about and better placed to exploit the things that are profitable. The rest is just background noise.

cess11 3 hours ago | parent [-]

My impression is that generally they surround themselves with people that are well informed and rely on them.

hmmm-i-wonder 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This seems to conflate short-form media as "digital" and long-form media (books) as paper. This is patently untrue.

I can experience the disconnection same while 'digital' reading on my e-reader in a cozy chair in the middle of nowhere, with much less RSI and eye strain.

Magazines, newspapers, short stories and other short-form written paper works pre-digital age are as guilty (or not guilty) of changing the consumption experience the author attempts to pin on 'digital'.

When it comes to the cultural impact of what we consume, there is I think a quantity vs quality argument that can be made with the introduction of digital and the lowering of barriers. There is also a counter argument that 'quality' was subjectively gate-kept by small groups that colour and bias the narrative intentionally and unintentionally. The weighing of these two arguments seems to come down to personal views on culture and media and I find its often a grey area for many.

asdff 2 hours ago | parent [-]

The biggest eye roll for me is the underlying assumption that these behaviors are new with the internet, new with even ticktock. We have a blindness towards how we used to receive our propaganda. No one probably noticed it was the prince paying off the town cryer to speak their praise. Or that it was the chief telling the shaman what to utter in prophecy to control their position. It has always been useful to control the mindshare of a people and emotional half or less than truths can always be dressed up in ways that innately satisfy us like music notes completing a chord progression. Rationality, fact, and logic often has no such advocate crafting the message towards maximal monkey brain compatibility. It just exists.

Yawrehto 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I recently read Reader, Come Home by Maryanne Wolf, which makes many similar arguments, and found myself agreeing with this. I've been finding it harder and harder to lose myself in a book, to finish books, to read as I used to read. It's as if the lens through which I view reading and books has shifted - from a way to be thrust into another world, to something to be browsed in short, easy-to-read snippets, like social media but with things like covers and jackets and spines.

I'd also like to note that, while the printed book is certainly not perfect at staying through the ages - something like stone tablets are probably best for that - it's a lot more reliable than online things. Maybe that'll change, but for now, tech companies go out of business a lot more frequently than floods or fires or other disasters strike the average house. And while, if Simon and Schuster go out of business, that doesn't do a thing to the books you have purchased from them, if Amazon goes out of business, there's no guarantee any of your Kindle will be readable anymore.

vacuity 4 hours ago | parent [-]

I envision that meme of having large bookshelves filled with books, something I could show off to friends as a proof that there is still plenty to be found in books, that I've found valuable in books. That on some days I might take the time to sit down, brew some tea or something, and read a book.

nataliste 3 hours ago | parent [-]

>The writer Umberto Eco belongs to that small class of scholars who are encyclopedic, insightful, and nondull. He is the owner of a large personal library (containing thirty thousand books), and separates visitors into two categories: those who react with “Wow! Signore professore dottore Eco, what a library you have! How many of these books have you read?” and the others — a very small minority — who get the point that a private library is not an ego-boosting appendage but a research tool. Read books are far less valuable than unread ones. The library should contain as much of what you do not know as your financial means, mortgage rates, and the currently tight real-estate market allows you to put there.

spudlyo an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Electronic books are, in my opinion, far superior to that "living animal with flesh of paper and ink of blood". I can go to Standard Ebooks and quickly download incredible works of imaginative fiction[0] in EPUB format that sync to my phone, my tablet, and my laptop. My notes and highlights[1] also sync. I can select a word that I don't know from the text and quickly look it up in my Electronic copy of Webster's 1913 dictionary. Best of all, I can prop up my tablet on the elliptical trainer and read for an hour while my heart rate moves through the first four zones as increasing amounts of oxygenated blood rush through my brain causing the words to burn like fire in my mind.

Also, I'm learning Latin, and it's been an incredible experience to read graded readers with optional interlinear translation[2] as well as the ability to hear the text expressively narrated in Latin at a touch of a button. None of this is possible with paper.

[0]: https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/george-eliot/middlemarch

[1]: https://muppetlabs.com/~mikeh/middlemarch.png

[2]: https://muppetlabs.com/~mikeh/latin.jpg

absoluteunit1 an hour ago | parent [-]

This. I couldn’t agree more. The text is searchable, indexable, word definitions can be searched right within the text, highlights are saved and indexable, etc.

Anytime I hear the arguments for print vs digital, aside from the personal preference of holding a physical book ( and the experience that comes with it; the smell of the books, the feel, etc), digital is by far superior in every other aspect.

rixed 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Internet is a faster printing press therefore more people can be subjected to more lies than before, but the issue at hand, the one mentioned in Sagan's quote, is orthogonal to that question and predates it. Did the printing press started a revolution in knowledge, or wars of religions?

Can printed books save us?

I admit I oftentime rejoice that printing felt out of fashion, so the printed books that are left are saved from the progress of psyops and the invasion of AI, which may make it easier for future generation(s?) to see through the blindfold of fantasies that will be setup for them.

The article site 1984 as an illustration of how printed books can help resist surveillance. Well, it did not turn out that great for the main character of that book.

Books are a sedative not a cure.

marcosdumay 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Did the printing press started a revolution in knowledge, or wars of religions?

That's a great question.

The answer is very well known. It started both.

bookofjoe 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Quote of the day.

d_burfoot 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Reading great books has been one of the best experiences of my life. But even as an ardent bibliophile, I can't deny that the medium has several serious shortcomings. Books are often far too long. Their quality is uneven (anyone remember the Wheel of Time series?). In the modern era, the production, marketing, promotion, and review of books has become highly politicized. Internet text - blogs, tweets, etc - has the potential to repair these issues.

retskrad 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Times have changed. Students who use podcasts, YouTube, and ChatGPT to complete their academic tasks aren't shallower or less educated than those who have spent years mastering the skill of extracting information from dense books.I have younger relatives who can't sustain their attention to read a book to save their life but still earn excellent grades because they were born into a world of technology. Their way of finding and extracting information is different—not better, just different.

bayindirh 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Disclosure: I worked on developing smartboard technology for students in my country.

Unfortunately research doesn't agree with you on this part: https://www.afterbabel.com/p/the-edtech-revolution-has-faile...

On top of that research, my personal experience mirrors these findings. Not having hands-on labs, not reading/writing but just listening prevents things from being committed to longer term memory. How many podcasts they remember? How many interesting things they have watched made a change in their lives?

There's also mounting research that writing is different than typing, and using a real pen and paper changes how brain fundamentally works.

I also experience this daily. I take notes and make lists on notebooks all day, and it allows me to concentrate and build a better picture of my day ahead. My longer term plans are stored in "personal project planning" software, but it failed to replace paper for the last 4-5 years consistently. So, now they work in tandem. Not against each other.

From my personal experience, designing code on paper results in compacter, more performant and less buggy code in my endeavors. Writing/designing on the spot doesn't scale much longer term, and always increases the "tidying rounds" in my software.

We still romanticize SciFi movies and technological acceleration via external devices. Nature has different priorities and doesn't work as we assume. We're going to learn this the hard way.

If you can't internalize some basic and advanced knowledge, your daily and work life will be much harder, period. Humans increase their cognitive and intellectual depth by building on top of this persistent building blocks by experience. When you externalize these essential building blocks, building on top of them becomes almost impossible.

The only thing I found which works brilliantly is eBook readers. Being able to carry a library in a distraction-free device with a screen tailored for long reading sessions is a superpower. Yes, it kills the sense of "progress" due to being constant thickness and lacking pages, but it works, and beats carrying a 2000+ page tome in every aspect.

aquariusDue 6 hours ago | parent [-]

That's why I'm excited about the new batch of PineNote devices, e-readers running Linux with a custom GNOME theme and a passive stylus.

And yeah, no matter what note-taking and productivity software I try I still end up longing for pen and paper. Sometimes I think scanning my notes and tagging them might be a good enough compromise.

bayindirh 6 hours ago | parent [-]

I exclusively use fountain pens and higher quality wirebound notebooks and notepads.

I number the notebook, and write the start date at first page. Then I number the pages as I go, and date every page.

When the notebook finishes, I remove the binding, scan it at 600DPI, store it as a PDF.

I'll be training a local Tesseract installation with my hand writing one day, but I'm not there. However, these notebooks saved the day more than once in their current form.

I'm using smart devices since Palm/Handspring era. Nothing can replace the paper for me, and I don't want to change my ways from now on. So this is the method I use for quite some time.

clarionbell 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The question is if they actually are just as capable, or if they are gaming the metric used by educators. My money is on the latter, but then again I do tend to have a negative outlook.

zusammen 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The point these focus-deprived children could accurately make is that our adult world is also about reward hacking and bullshit metrics. I’m old but I will tell you that everything I dislike that I see in the young is society’s fault. We did a truly terrible job of giving them a world in which to become better, rather than worse, people.

In 1400, actually reading books deeply was for autistic weirdos who were usually sent to monasteries. In 1950, you could actually mention reading literary fiction on a job interview and it would help, rather than hurt, you. In 2024, actually reading books deeply is for autistic weirdos again and “well-adjusted” people realize that their ability to afford food and housing relies on the use of information to form a collage beneficial to one’s personal image—not deep understanding of high-quality information, and certainly not the high-risk generation of anything new.

Yeul 7 hours ago | parent [-]

Kids see adults who don't read so why should they?

It makes me kinda sad. Videogames need voice acting now to become successful because nobody has the reading or concentration skills. When I was a child I taught myself English by playing Planescape Torment.

Mistletoe 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I often find the voice acting to be interminably slow and distracting and immersion breaking somehow. You are just waiting for the voice actor to slowly emote it all. I like how Morrowind did it when questing. Some flavor voice to set the mood and then great writing you read. Full voice acting for important parts and scenes.

oytis 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I also see that in real world too. Too many times I wished a book existed to learn this or that and got an answer that you really need to hang out in multiple Discord groups to stay up-to-date. Newer generation apparently has less difficulty with that.

Also I found videos to be of enormous value to learn visual tools like CAD. Just watching someone do the job and explaining how they do it lets you fill the gaps that theoretical education leaves open.

tayo42 an hour ago | parent [-]

Maybe they just think they do because they don't know any better?

Or constant stream of information gives them the illusion of staying informed

n4r9 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yeah. I struggle to understand how podcasts and youtube are an efficient learning resource. They are slow, unstructured, and unsearchable. Whilst some software can ameliorate some of these (e.g. playback speed control), there's no analogue to the process of "can skip this paragraph, can skip this paragraph, let's search back for the definition of this term, let's cross-reference this term with this other text, let's see how many pages are left in this chapter...".

I think most people just find it easy to put a podcast and pay semi-attention on while they do tasks or go on their phone. And the education sector is having to adapt to that and make it possible for students to achieve good grades by learning like that.

high_na_euv 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The good thing about videos is that you can literally see somebody doing something from end tonend

Not just the critical part described in an article

n4r9 7 hours ago | parent [-]

Surely an article can cover a process end-to-end, just as a video can focus on only a critical part. Do you mean that the medium of video encourages the author to be more thorough?

high_na_euv 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Sometimes I like to watch how someone does something cuz you can see interesting things

E.g watching developer write software can show you things about OS usage, IDE usage, automation and other tricks and habbits

n4r9 3 hours ago | parent [-]

That's fair. Someone commented in a different fork that videos are good for DIY jobs, and I totally agree. You want to see a person doing it live, so you can imitate their motions. I was thinking about learning something theoretical, like mathematics or history.

short_sells_poo 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Perhaps I'm old fashioned but I despise this new fad of everything having to be a video. I can read much-much faster than the goober on youtube can talk, and I can easily skip sections which are uninteresting because I can see at a glance what the paragraph is about. But these days everyone has to be a Content Creator and a Personality and there's just no money or celebrity in written text, even though it is a vastly better medium for a lot of knowhow. So if I want to know something that could be a paragraph, I have to seek through a 15 minute video padded with 10 minutes of "Like, comment and subscribe and don't forget to smash that bell because it helps me so much"...

</old man yells at cloud>

torlok 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It's not about being old fashioned. If you can't maintain focus to read a book, you're obviously not truly engaging with the material. How far are you going to get in a field, if you're reliant on having everything explained to you in simple terms.

fiforpg 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Not only written text is a faster way to communicate information, it is so because it has much bigger context window:

"A moment" in a video is exactly that, a moment of time, either a frame or a couple of seconds that will stay in short term memory.

"A moment" in a text is a page or two facing pages. There can be diagrams or formulas there. It is extremely easy to direct attention to parts of these pages, in any order.

In a video, "moments" in the above sense are generally low information, quickly changing in linear order. In a text, they are fewer and of higher density. It seems that the second type is easier to commit to long-term memory, to understand, etc.

A4ET8a8uTh0 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There is a place for everything. I absolutely love video for home improvement stuff, because instructions for those tend to be not great or inaccurate pictographs. The problem is that we forgot that for each task, there is an appropriate tool. Video is a good tool for some things. Raw text is a better tool for other.

1aqp 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Hear! hear!

xorcist 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

From my experience it is obviously the latter. Reading well, on paper or on screen, really requires you to put your complete attention to it. Audio (podcasts) and video (youtube) have the advantage of not requiring your complete attention. Everything else follows from that. Of course it can fit some people better. Just not where it matters.

llamaimperative 7 hours ago | parent [-]

There’s no such thing as multitasking. It is a literal illusion and is one big reason why people who can’t sit down and actually read a book (or lie down with eyes closed and LISTEN to a podcast/lecture) produce for themselves the illusion of understanding.

ethernot 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I am not sure this is the case. I work with a mix of younger and mature students and there is a distinct inability for the younger students to compose complex abstract processes.

When people do well as a cohort they are usually normalised against their peers. It requires a little more academic comparison across age groups.

sudahtigabulan 8 hours ago | parent [-]

Isn't it also because of a change in testing methods? It seems to me that multiple choice tests are more and more widespread. These can be gamed more easily, since you can often eliminate some of the choices based on knowledge unrelated to the correct answer.

For comparison, during my own education, a couple decades ago, I don't recall having a multiple choice test ever. Maybe 1 to 4 grade in primary school. Maybe. Everything was problems, proofs, or essays.

lolc 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Yes it was uncommon for me too. Our teacher in electronics back then did give us a multiple choice test because we asked so persistently. He wanted proof for why the option was chosen though. I thought he was just taking the piss but for one answer I could use proof by elimination and he accepted that. That proof was probably more work than just adding up a bunch of resistors, but it was also more fun :-)

ethernot 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I haven't seen an increase in multiple choice tests in my area (mathematics). We still require written answers and proofs. Some testing is computer-based but it requires entry of formulated results properly.

Really I spend my days shovelling PDFs around.

torlok 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

YouTube and podcasts are fine as an introduction to a topic, but they are and do encourage passive consumption. It's fine for reciting shallow factoids in class and getting grades, but won't make you an expert in a field. If you can't maintain enough attention to read, you'll always have to rely on processed, second hand information. That's why reading needs to be taught as a skill, and heavily encouraged.

7222aafdcf68cfe 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I find three challenges with YouTube and podcasts:

1. In my experience, there is a lot of introductory material to be found, but I find there are distinctly fewer people discussing more advanced topics, or they are much harder to discover.

2. Audio/Video just isn't as information-dense as a book can be.

3. YouTube and podcasts tend to be much more "infotainment" than "education". And sure, we can find lectures on there, but students get lectures in school too.

nkrisc 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I have younger relatives who can't sustain their attention to read a book to save their life

That’s sad. There are many times in life one will need to do what is essentially the equivalent of reading a boring book and these kids are being set up for failure.

switch007 8 hours ago | parent [-]

It's sad on the human level too. A family member or friend may have a difficult issue that takes more than 2 minutes to discuss, but a person won't have the attention span to listen.

No wonder therapists are raking it in and short supply.

dagw 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Students who use podcasts, YouTube, and ChatGPT to complete their academic tasks aren't shallower or less educated than those who have spent years mastering the skill of extracting information from dense books

The problem is that while YouTube and ChatGPT will get you through high school and perhaps a year of university, you'll eventually reach a point where you need information that is only available in dense books. And if you haven't learnt that skill of reading dense books, you have a problem.

There was actually an article in the newspaper just today about how a record number of university students in Sweden are struggling and failing because they are simply incapable of reading and extracting the necessary information needed from the textbooks.

Jedd 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Students who use ChatGPT ... to complete their academic tasks aren't shallower or less educated ...

Is your evidence for this assertion constrained to your observations of your younger relatives?

Certainly 'excellent grades' may not be linearly correlated with deep learning, but I'm curious how you correlate 'years spent mastering' with LLMs.

beezlebroxxxxxx 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I have younger relatives who can't sustain their attention to read a book to save their life but still earn excellent grades

Can they sustain their attention on dense and technical things at all, or when there is no grade involved?

Pointing to school grades is not really a good measure of "can these people actually digest and understand complex and longform information and narratives?" The relevance of that requirement should be obvious: at many points in your life you will need to manage boredom and your attention, to understand boredom and focusing for a longtime as a part of life and learning.

When I was a TA in uni 5 years ago, many students found reading anything longer than 8 pages to be interminable or downright impossible, which I found rather pathetic. They would give up. These were all kids who got excellent grades. They couldn't accept or manage their boredom at all, even if it was just a part of learning to do things. They constantly wanted summaries, which to my mind is worse --- they wanted someone to tell them what and how to think about something without engaging with that thing themselves. We all have to do that sometimes, of course; but, we should not expect that to be the default. What they lacked more than anything was intellectual curiosity.

gonzo41 8 hours ago | parent [-]

Remember when films used to be a tight 90 minutes of snappy editing. Now everything is getting close to 3 hours, it's not because the stories are better or more complex it's people not being ruthless in their editing.

I remember struggling to read dense texts at university. As I've aged and read more, I'm pretty comfortable in the belief that most of the stuff i had to read wasn't that good and was just a boring slog purely because the author liked writing words.

Writers like writing, Readers like reading, and sometimes what they both would benefit from is a ruthless editor to focus their effort.

gitanovic 8 hours ago | parent [-]

That is very true, although I also have the opposite example: some math books at Uni (e.g. the recommended one for calculus) were so dense with information that I could not make head and tails

I often had to buy a second book where the content was... well digestible

tgv 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Times have changed.

Yeah sure, but that's a platitude that doesn't warrant anything.

> Students [...] aren't shallower or less educated than those [...].

Proof needed. You can't just say that.

> I have younger relatives who can't sustain their attention to read a book to save their life but still earn excellent grades because they were born into a world of technology.

The tests and grading norms have changed. It's been shown that (in some countries), secondary school pupils aren't able to pass maths and physics exams from 30 or 40 years ago. Being born into a world of technology only makes you apt to using that technology. It doesn't make you smarter or provide you with more knowledge. As a counter anecdote: quite a few secondary school pupils know that there's an infinite number of primes, and that E=mc^2. However, they've got no clue at all to what that means or what it's good for. It's just factoids, not maths or physics.

And in relation to the linked article, those excellent grades are irrelevant. And you even admit it. Young people don't read. Won't read. Can't read. Literature is pretty much doomed. Your cultural relativism doesn't assuage that.

seabass-labrax 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> ...secondary school pupils aren't able to pass maths and physics exams from 30 or 40 years ago.

On its own, that isn't a particularly useful observation, because more than just the test has changed since that time. For instance, teachers who seek to help their pupils pass a test teach, to a greater or lesser extent, 'to the test'. Are the present-day students being taught to a test from four decades ago? This is just one of many factors which one would need to control for in order to accurately compare performance over time. Although there are certainly people who specialise in that research, I think it is more useful to ask what skills our present-day society needs, and work back from there. There are vanishingly few professions in which a knowledge of the number of primes, say, has any relevance. What do people need to know now, and what books should be read by students in order to learn it?

rixed 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> secondary school pupils aren't able to pass maths and physics exams from 30 or 40 years ago

But can pupils from 30 or 40 years ago pass today's exams?

tgv 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I actually did a few math exams recently (I was helping someone study for them), and they were really too easy. I had a hard time catching up with uni maths after breezing through secondary school, but if they nowadays enter with that level, it must be a nightmare.

youoy 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Both approaches are not incompatible. It's probably more efficient to build a high level map of the subject using podcasts/YouTube videos than reading a dense book. Once you have that high level map, you have the tools to choose the dense book that is more appropriate for what you are looking for. That way the number of dense books that you have to read is reduced compared to a world without YouTube/podcasts, and the end result is the same.

Of course, if you stop just after the podcasts/YouTube, you end up with a biased map of a subject which ends up probably not being very useful if you want to apply that knowledge successfully.

Most schools will only ask for the first part, so that is enough for the kids. But I mean, they were already doing similar things beforehand to avoid having to study dense books...

lordnacho 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think it is two-sided.

The kids who actually have curiosity will use the internet to speed way, way ahead of anything we've seen before. They will use the resources in the "right" way: getting access to more materials, getting better feedback, getting more motivation from social groups.

The same device will be used by everyone else to just feed addictions: more videos about useless crap. More time spent simply tickling mental itches, getting more and more exposed to things that are very harmful.

jprete 6 hours ago | parent [-]

I don't see any serious "right way" as you describe it. In particular I don't see a lot of motivation from social groups, and the Internet is horrible for good feedback because lots of people respond to things from a purely emotional place.

lordnacho 4 hours ago | parent [-]

For instance, if you want to use the internet to get ahead of your curriculum, you can watch Khan Academy videos and do exercises. Not all that different from doing the same with a book, but with the internet you get a lot of curated material for free.

You can connect with other learners, you can ask questions on forums.

GeoAtreides 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> extracting information

> excellent grades

have nothing to do with interiority -- the main thrust of the article

carlosjobim 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They get excellent grades because they make sure the professor feels that they agree with them on political and ideological issues. Be a nice and friendly person, and agree with the academics on their political beliefs and you will get good grades. Knowledge has nothing to do with academic grades.

You could as well have written that you know young people who get excellent grades because they pay the smart kid to do their school papers.

cglace 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What will they do when there isn't a podcast or video to teach them a concept?

pimlottc 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think it’s far too early to state that with any confidence.

high_na_euv 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Grades are irrelevant

We all know students with good grades who struggle at exams

Cthulhu_ 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Keep in mind that some of the criteria have changed as well over time, probably not as fast as technology itself, but skills like reading comprehension are tested for less in favor of e.g. tech literacy.

dyauspitr 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don’t think ChatGPT belongs with the other two. It essentially counts as reading.

anal_reactor 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Every time I read about the next generation not being able to read, I recall all the boomers falling for penis enlargement pill scams again and again. Exactly the people who complain about standard tests being too easy nowadays are the people who panic at the sight of a self-checkout.

blackoil 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I agree with two major issues raised here. Importance of reading long form content and harms of environment full of distractions.

Saying that solution is not turning back and giving up on digital. It would be same as giving up on printing to embrace a teacher focused learning.

nileshtrivedi 9 hours ago | parent [-]

Exactly. Most of the author's complaints can be answered with: "Use decent software. And make copies."

And I found it disappointing that the author did no attempt to recognize that digital #reading is what enables himself to reach people at all? Where is the accounting for accessibility and reach?

vacuity 4 hours ago | parent [-]

I think the author would say that certain forms of content, like blogs, can be useful. I don't think they're completely eschewing digital reading, but instead pushing for far more print reading than is common now. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

usrbinbash 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The issue isn't about "screen vs. print", the issue is about "critical, discerning, questioning mind" vs. "mindless consumerism".

The epistemological collapse we are experiencing wasn't caused by information being online and disseminated via browsers.

It was, and is, caused by a mass of uninformed people, with strong tribal behavior, shutting out any information that doesn't fit their preconceived world views, and industries and politics designed to benefit from that behavior.

And btw. misinformation can be, and has been, spread via print [even today][1].

[1]: https://english.nv.ua/nation/russia-delivers-nine-tons-of-pr...

everdrive 8 hours ago | parent [-]

I think it's much more fundamental than this; the new speed and new methods with which information can be spread are themselves the problem. Misinformation is downstream of this. The more fundamental problem seems to be tribalism, which sort of information can be spread quickly, (anything with strong emotional content, outrage, etc.) and the uncomfortable fact that most people acquire knowledge through social transfer than through actual understanding. (eg: do most people really understand the geometry or science to prove the earth is round? Or, do they know the earth is round because this is what they've been taught. I'll bet most of HN does understand this, but most people could no produce this if asked without any sort of preparation.)

The new methods of spreading information are the problem, and it's unclear just exactly how we're all going to adjust.

lordnacho 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> the uncomfortable fact that most people acquire knowledge through social transfer than through actual understanding

This hits the nail on the head. In the end, I am trusting other people to do the experiments and reporting the findings.

I can regurgitate a lot of stuff about science, but in the end I believe it because I grew on the scientist side of the fence. If you look at conspiracy theories, the thing they always do is come up with a reason not to believe in the established authorities.

anal_reactor 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> eg: do most people really understand the geometry or science to prove the earth is round?

During the "there are flat-earthers" fad I realized that for the majority of people it doesn't matter whether it's flat or not, the question whether it's flat or round actually only arises when they need to perform an action which depends on the Earth's shape, which is never, because most people are not pilots, not astronauts, etc., so for them, the model of Earth being flat works perfectly well.

It's the same as people saying that Earth is round for most intents and purposes, and then a smart-ass saying "actually, it's not a perfectly round ball". Yes, it's not a perfectly round ball, but we're discussing time zones here, not local weather patterns.

Most people say that Earth is round not because they believe it's the correct model for their use case, but because they want to belong to the club of people perceived as smart, and that's the view expected of a "smart" person. The flat-earthers perfectly uncovered this charade, by showing that most people just parrot "Earth is round" because that's the social consensus which just so happens to be true.

karel-3d 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This article is too long, I will let NotebookLM make a fake podcast out of it

blackoil 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

IIRC one of the common factor with genius/prodigies of yesteryears is they all worked 1:1 or in a small group with some reasonably talented teachers. Unfortunately that is not scalable for mass, so may be custom designed Device + LLM may work better than giving up digital.

A4ET8a8uTh0 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Birds of feather and all that. I was lucky enough to end up in a class full of kids much smarter than me.

As for LLM replacement for talented teacher,even though I kinda worry that it would be subverted by organizations and various interests intent on stripping anything of value from LLM thus rendering LLMs role as a talented guide/teacher role largely useless, I personally found exploring new subjects even more engrossing than ( at one point in time, following down the rabbit hole of Wikipedia entries on some obscure subject ).

Part of the problem is that this thing would need to be marketed as safe, but safe is staying within rigid parameters that do not allow for a genius level individual to grow. Smart is probably a lot easier so safety features will likely not be triggered that often.

The other problem is that only some kids will take advantage of that mode. Not everyone is inclined to explore like that.

I have no real solution here. My kid is not at the age I need to worry about it yet, but I am slowly starting to plan my approach and I think tuned LLM with heavily restricted digital access will be the initial approach.

pavlov 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I suspect print magazines are undergoing the same kind of cycle of destruction and resurrection as happened to vinyl records.

In the 1990s, vinyls were the clunky old things that your mom gave away in a yard sale. Now they’re produced again as a high-end tactile media experience and sales are increasing every year.

Magazines can make a similar comeback for niches like fashion and arts. But they will probably be funded rather differently from the ad-filled old media products.

privong 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Magazines can make a similar comeback for niches like fashion and arts. But they will probably be funded rather differently from the ad-filled old media products.

This has been attempted in the outdoors world for 20+ years. E.g., Alpinist[0] and The Surfers Journal[1]. It works, kinda. Alpinist now has more ads and is a smaller physical size and lower-quality paper than it was at the start. I think it's also had a couple close calls with bankruptcy. I wasn't reading TSJ over a long enough time span to tell if they had similar issues.

[0] http://www.alpinist.com/ [1] https://www.surfersjournal.com/

bradfa 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Totally agree! I subscribe to one magazine which is published once a quarter, it costs me about $40/year for the subscription but is well worth it to me as the content is not available anywhere else. Definitely a niche market but the rag does a very good job of catering exactly to its market. There’s still some ads but only a handful per issue that normally has 60-100 pages total.

Mistletoe 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

We still get Architectural Digest and I enjoy looking at it in a way I never would online.

tapanjk 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> "What's been sacrificed is not reading in the most prosaic sense, but the particular experience of a certain type of reading, perilously endangered among all of us attracted to the alluring siren-call of the smartphone ping."

Product idea: I think it's just a matter of time that the basic e-reader technology will be so cheap that it should be possible to order one with a set of prepackaged books. You can read the books on the device, period. No internet, no word look-up (a dictionary can be a standalone book in the library), no highlighting / commenting, no adding or buying new books, no nothing else except the text of the books in the library. It will be so cheap that once you are done, you can just toss is out.

SoftTalker 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

That seems a bit wasteful? Any time you want to read a new book you buy a whole new reading device? It might be cheap but that's more e-waste we don't need.

Why not a re-usable e-reader that reads books from an SD card? You can order or download books onto the cards, the reading experience can then be totally offline as you describe.

vegetablepotpie 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> It will be so cheap that once you are done, you can just toss is out.

Oh no, that’s just… why?

At least with a paper book you can give it away, sell it to a book reseller, or put it in one of those little lending library boxes people put in front of their houses. If nothing else, if it has no more value, you can recycle it for paper pulp.

I mean if you’re a publisher, hoping to cash in on people wanting to disconnect, and trying to evade the first sale doctrine, sure. That is a way to do it. But the environmental consequences are just bad. Maybe have the sleep screen list what books are on the device and make it repairable. At least make it possible to open, and replace the battery.

lazystar 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

this type of situation is not unique in human history - it happens after the invention of any device that disseminates information on a mass scale. for example, see the printing press:

> The spread of mechanical movable type printing in Europe in the Renaissance introduced the era of mass communication, which permanently altered the structure of society. The relatively unrestricted circulation of information and (revolutionary) ideas transcended borders, captured the masses in the Reformation, and threatened the power of political and religious authorities. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printing_press

in my opinion, the author of the blog post wastes the readers time by not delving into historical comparisons; no effort is spent analyzing the solutions that society implemented in the past when faced with this problem.

vacuity 4 hours ago | parent [-]

I think the Internet medium is sufficiently different from past advancements that such analogies don't work. It's not necessarily that the Internet brings fundamentally different capabilities, perhaps we can reason about how its new scale makes some capabilities emerge as others, but it's the same outcome either way.

dr_dshiv 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

“when awesome technological powers are in the hands of the very few… [and] when the people have lost their ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority” the nation would “slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.”

Hmm. Or, when tech is in the hands of everyone and they excessively question those in authority…?

vacuity 4 hours ago | parent [-]

> Or, when tech is in the hands of everyone and they excessively question those in authority…?

At least today, that doesn't actually happen. The sense of authority has just shifted from "nebulous leader figures" to (implicitly) "producers of this content I trust". And then when the conventionally powerful people own the content producers...even for an example like Snowden or Assange, there are plenty of competing narratives. Hell, my opinion of Assange as an example of morally rejecting authority has shifted recently because I was exposed to another narrative. It's not simple at all, who to listen to.

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What's special about the book? It's the cost, proof of work if you will. If costs nothing to write or read an internet post, so bots, cheap workforce and gullible people can be employed. Only selected few buy books, because it costs money, so it's their vote that counts for the author, the publishers and for fellow readers.

falcor84 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I see it from the other end - what counts is not the cost of producing the book, but the opportunity cost of the reader sitting down with a particular book. A computer or phone allows you to context switch to a million different things, and even an e-reader allows you to easily switch between hundreds of books. But with a physical book, you commit yourself to carrying, holding and focusing on a particular work.

There's something deep about this commitment, and I think we would get almost the same result if we had digital devices that were made to hold exactly one book, and you had to take yours to the library/store to return the old one and download a new one - such that even if the cost of copying the bytes is zero, you pay the cost of physically carrying that one book that you took the time to pick out.

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 8 hours ago | parent [-]

That's true too. Both costs matter.

nileshtrivedi 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Writing digitally is cheaper but that's exactly why distributing or getting reach is not cheap at all. You still need cost and proof of work in getting noticed by algorithms, as well as people who usually set trends. In fact, the lower cost of production means that more niche things get written than there would have been a market for.

JumpCrisscross 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Only selected few buy books, because it costs money

I doubt money is the limiting factor for book uptake in the West, particularly in towns with a library. You're instead selecting for curiosity, intelligence and attention span. (Say this as someone without enough of the last.)

xtiansimon 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> “Wen Stephenson at the Chicago Review claimed […] he experienced no difference in parsing Seamus Heaney on the page as opposed to the screen, asking “does it matter that it is transmitted to me, voice and word, through a computer? …the question is beginning to bore me by now.”

Well said. For the act of reading digital origin changes the quality but only in minor ways. What we all failed to anticipate we’re the gross effects of segmentation, disintegration, infinite duplication of media.

grantmuller 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The irony of reading this article surrounded by a cacophony of flashing and scrolling ads is not lost on me.

grey-area 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The title seems to make the incorrect assumption that print (ink on paper) is the only way to read.

ByteExplorer 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Ed Simon's reflection on Sven Birkerts' The Gutenberg Elegies in In Praise of Print thoughtfully challenges the prevailing assumption that digital media will inevitably replace print.

renewiltord 40 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The reason for epistemological collapse is that people peeked behind the curtain and found that the experts were just normal people endowed not with some magical knowledge but just making things up as they go.

I can do that, too, and sometimes I am better at it. Given that, I prefer reader-side filtering over writer-side filtering.

cafard 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>> Mine is an estimably materialist variety of mysticism though,

Esteemed by whom?

nataliste 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Cronus eats his children.

In 1494, Johannes Trithemius printed De laude scriptorum, "In Praise of Scribes" assailing the development of the printing press. The same argument was made, but from the perspective of the manual scribe, that a printer doesn't understand a work as well as a scribe does, as the speed of reproduction doesn't have the same intent that a person lovingly copying by hand does.

Similarly, Plato made the same argument aginst books themselves in the Phaedrus (circa 370BC): "If men learn this, it will implant forgetfulness in their souls; they will cease to exercise memory because they rely on that which is written, calling things to remembrance no longer from within themselves, but by means of external marks."

And I'm sure in the murky recesses of human evolution, a curmudgeonly man felt the same about speech itself: "How will child know own breath when choked by breath of others?"

And I'm also certain in the near future, when ergodic literature has replaced the solitary linear author, there will be nostalgia for the same: "When everyone chooses for themselves which path the large language storyteller takes, we deprive ourselves of the common ground that is the unchanging epub. As Chesterton wrote one hundred and fifty years ago, 'Chaos is dull; because in chaos the train might indeed go anywhere, to Baker Street, or to Bagdad. But man is a magician, and his whole magic is in this, that he does say Victoria, and lo! it is Victoria.' We might write today 'In chaos, the Tolkien model might take Frodo to Erebor, or the Southron Lands, but the author is a magician, and his whole magic is in this, that he writes Mordor, and lo! It is Mordor.'"

In short, Cronus eats his children.

le-mark 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Thanks this is the perspective I was looking for. Like how television was imagined to bring Shakespeare to the masses, but instead met the masses where they are. And how people in the losing party lament the ignorance of the voters when it has always been so, or worse.

selimthegrim an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

<golf clap>

vacuity 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It's basically constant that many people will fearmonger and some will embrace new technology. I think this is basically independent of the actual merits and drawbacks of the given technology. Regardless of these strange asymptotes, I would say technology has been advancing from less benefit/risk to more in time, and so we will get closer to the fearmongerers being right. I suppose it could mean that we harness the benefits and waive the risks, but in practice it seems unlikely.

tempodox 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Now, consider what the Nazis were able to do with flimsy IBM punch cards, and the difference today, the sheer amount of data concerning all of us, saved on servers owned by the very people now enabling authoritarianism.

Not really news by now but it merits repeating again and again.

iandanforth 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is a frustratingly bad article.

The primary argument is hedonistic. The author is arguing that the state of mind created by reading books is what's valuable, and not the content.

This infuriating for me. This is like writing an article in defense of pistachio ice cream. The author has a sensation they enjoy that they want more people to enjoy. I would have trouble coming up with a more trivializing case for physical books. You might as well just talk about the joy of the smell of old books. It's pleasurable, unique, and completely missing on the internet.

The author fails to connect that pleasurable sensation to anything meaningful and so can be easily dismissed.

Whereas other writers, ones the author quotes even, have pointed out how long form content trains concentration, short and long term memory, and critical thought, this author fails to convince that books are anything more than a warm blanket for the mind.

vacuity 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Perhaps the author doesn't make the case well, but the implication is that reading print primes the mind in a way that presents better emotional and intellectual consumption of the content.

bookofjoe 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

How do e-readers fit in here?

benreesman 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

We really fucked up when we didn’t regulate smart phones like weapons grade uranium.

It’s so fucking toxic. And I’m well aware there are gems in the museum of YouTube math lectures after walking through kilometers of gift shop TikTok shit (and it’s plausible that YouTube will be Alphabet’s undoing because YouTube is great for education and a well educated body politic would hang Pichai and his ilk from a dockyard crane).

Our system (call it capitalism if you like, got a lot of rent in it to appeal to Adam Smith: the father of capitalism thinks low capital gains are rape) can’t cope: it’s no longer just implicated in mental health crisis after mental health crisis, society destabilizing radicalization of (dumb) politics, human sexuality being substantially mediated by people who consider a successful match “churn”, and just every godawful thing.

The HN guidelines quite sensibly admonish everyone to strive for the “best version of the argument”.

Smartphone social media whatever is the worst form of the argument that biological humans can put a morally human life form in charge of anything worth a billion dollars.

There are gems, it’s not all garbage, but if every smartphone on the planet was hit with a hammer tomorrow humanity would look less suicidal in a week. People would start going back to third places, even more importantly fucking at any kind of plausibly sane level, bankers / sociopaths / serial genocidaires / Chamath would go back to being the pariahs with jet skis.

And humanity looks awfully, awfully glum for however awesome GDP astrology says things are.

m-i-l 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A couple of references to the Nazis, but no reference to the Nazi book burnings, an incredibly symbolic physical manifestation of knowledge and information destruction, which I'd have thought would be very relevant in this context, i.e. in the praise of physical books? Perhaps it wasn't mentioned because it doesn't quite fit in with the narrative of digital being all bad, given digital knowlege can be more resistant to suppression and physical destruction.

Also some great quotes from 30 years ago, e.g. Carl Sagan's "when awesome technological powers are in the hands of the very few" the nation would “slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness". But did it actually have to end up this way? And is it still possible (with enough collective will power) to push Big Tech profiteering back enough to deliver some of the society enhancing changes originally envisioned in the mid-1990s? Just as it took decades for the full positive implications of the invention of the printing press to come to fruition, perhaps we still need more time before we decry the internet as a net negative?

Barrin92 5 hours ago | parent [-]

> an incredibly symbolic physical manifestation of knowledge and information destruction

Important distinction here, book burnings are an example of knowledge destruction, but not all information is knowledge, and not all knowledge is truth.

That is why this isn't applicable to the internet age, or in fact even the reverse is true. In an environment of digital mass communication there's much more information than knowledge, and the way to destabilize knowledge and truth is not to destroy knowledge but to flood you with information. This is why the most important skill today has shifted from finding knowledge to filtering out noise. The Nazi of today isn't going to hunt a library for a book, he's instead going to create an environment so entropic that truth and fiction become indistinguishable.

And that's also of course why you find people in that camp today as defenders of free flow of information. Because you need to realize that the signal to noise ratio has been turned on its head. When Google deletes 90% of my emails this isn't because they pursue evil plans like someone who burns 90% of a library down, quite the opposite, it's the only way I don't end up being scammed.

https://philosophicalsociety.com/html/BaudrillardsThoughtsOn...

wobbles1995 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

When you live in a society that no longer values knowledge or compassion, there’s no point is wasting your time trying to go back to the old golden years. Maybe just accept anti intellectualism is the only way to succeed in the world and work around that? Elon Musk, the most successful man in the world is anti intellectual, why would you fool yourself into thinking there might be another future?

yawpitch 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The irony of praising print and rhetoricizing reading on a website that is nearly unreadable due to intrusive visual ads is kind of a sign that collapse is an era behind us.

promiseofbeans 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I went and checked the page in another browser with my adblocker off. Wow. Just wow. I started using ad blockers on everything a few years ago because they became a little too annoying. I somehow missed when the web became nigh unusable from them.

llm_trw 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The irony is that even the ads on the site are so terrible they take a good 30 seconds to fully load.

When I opened the page initially it just looked the same like it did with an adblocker on, but eventually: https://imgur.com/a/L7F7uNm

dwayne_dibley 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I thought you were exaggerating until I clicked the link.

porridgeraisin 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I disabled brave shields for a moment and wow. Especially the youtube-like iframe that slid in from the right. Crazy.

devnullbrain 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>“If anything has changed about my reading over the years, it is that I value the state a book puts me in more than I value the specific contents,”

This is a great representation of everything I've come to hate of the way reading is praised as a means to an ends, divorced from the writing itself. I assume this comes from people being praised for reading as children - when they're developing a novel skill - and carrying the same value into adulthood, uncritical and unchanged.

So we end up with bookshops full of erotica with cutesy covers, proudly read by people who think they're doing something intellectual. We end up with the 'Torment Nexus' argument, where a political view becomes an unassailable truth as soon as it's committed to sci-fi print. If you're doing anything in technology, pray that it doesn't bear superficial resemblance to Skynet. Pray that it doesn't sound like Soylent Green.

TFA starts with the Terry Pratchet anecdote about Holocaust denial. It's an impressive prediction - but it's a also a prediction made by every other Usenet nerd in 1995 that didn't have a financial interest in being ignorant of it. His and Sagan's arguments are elevated above expert contemporaries just because they wrote fiction and pop-science. Ironically, it's the loathed Silicon Valley nerds who might more fairly celebrate the prescience of people like rms.

Terry Pratchet didn't write to advocate for truth of the Holocaust. He wrote fun fiction, without much to take from it other than boot-themed economics. It doesn't stop being entertainment - or escapism - just because it's a book.

>Dean Blobaum of the University of Chicago Press castigated how The Gutenberg Elegies makes electronic media the “whipping boy for the ills of western society,” claiming that Birkerts’ argument is too all-encompassing, blaming computers for the “Decline in education, literacy, and literate culture.” Here’s the thing some thirty years later, however—Birkerts was right.

Except, here's the thing: he wasn't.[1] Ignore the demise of truth propagated by this online article, because literacy rates are rising rapidly globally. And I can think of no invention - not even the printing press - that can be thanked for this as much as the personal computer. Even in developed nations, literacy rates continue to rise.

But the most damning part is what the author shows this belief results in. Do unqualified 'reading', and you too can write guff like:

>The frenetic, interconnected, hypertext-permeated universe of digital reading is categorically a different experience. Even more importantly, a physical book on a shelf is a cosmos unto-itself, while that dimension of interiority and introspection—of privacy—is obscured in the virtual domain.

No need for evidence, or argument, or even decent prose. Maybe this self-satisfaction is why so many book protagonists are quiet, misunderstood children who long to be librarians. You're just reading. You're grown adults. Get over yourselves.

[1] https://uis.unesco.org/sites/default/files/documents/fs45-li...

hunglee2 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That we are entering a crisis of epistemology is a positive sign that we are recognising all produced information is unavoidably narrativization. We can't - and shouldn't want to be - certain of anything. Buyer beware and we'll be ok

jl6 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> all produced information is unavoidably narrativization

This is a future possibility but it has not yet come to pass, and we can still avoid it. We are not yet adrift in a sea of epistemological relativism where everyone has their own truth, and no objective truth can be discerned. We don't need to succumb to this kind of nihilism. Truth and objective reality are still discernable and approachable. Philosophical objections to the Truly objective viewpoint are not the limiting factor.

"Everything is just a narrative" is the cry of those who don't have truth on their side. The current state of mass media is the result of their cries becoming louder. We don't have to go along with it.

pjc50 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The problem is, you can't live like that. Not in an advanced society. There simply is not time and effort enough available for everyone to check everything. You can't do your own medical trials and your own long-term toxicity studies.

llm_trw 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

>You can't do your own medical trials and your own long-term toxicity studies.

I can quite easily do a meta study with LLMs and chat with the corpus of works.

In fact I did this just today and came to my doctor, who happens to be a tenured professor at a top 20 world university, with a bunch of tests to hone in on possible customized treatments which we're going to be doing over the next 6 months.

Out of the 30 studies I cited he'd never seen 25 and they were all by people who he knew as experts in his field and was keen to read them after I left. Luckily he had access to all the journals legally unlike the average person.

nonrandomstring 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> you can't live like that

Indeed its psychological torture but it doesn't just tear up the individual, it undermines all social institutions.

A minor nitpick, TFA author uses the term "Epistemological Collapse". That's the "science/philosophy and study of knowledge and meaning" and for that to collapse would be different from what people talk about more widely which is "epistemic crisis"... a deterioration in common knowledge and disappearance of meaning, trust, truth, veracity.

Historians call it an 'interregnum'. We're very definitely in one. With another author I co-wrote about it here [0]. You can see it everywhere. But I argue that no single technology is the cause of it - rather what people do and how tech alters their behaviour. Look at this adjacent thread on whether "Malware can turn off webcam LED and record video". This rather simple debate raises a more or less "unfalsifiable question", even if you have sophisticated electronic test equipment and nation-state level of dedicated expertise,, what do you really know about the relation between an LED and covert surveillance.

In an epistemic crisis we are forced to confront how we use knowledge and maybe to use it in a different way.

[0] https://cybershow.uk/blog/posts/radical-disbelief-and-its-ca...

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42259278

mistermann 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

If one is able to be comfortable with the unknown (a state that can't be escaped except through a simulation), checking everything isn't required.

It's like juggling three balls in a way: if you can't do it, it isn't necessary to believe you can. So too with knowledge, except it's like a thousand times as hard.

DanielBMarkham 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I feel both strong agreement and strong disagreement with your comment.

Epistemology is probably the only topic that I would recommend being 30+ before you read. Before that, in my opinion most folks aren't ready for it. You need to both accept ultimate uncertainty and also deliberately create your own certainty in your life. That's a tough ask even for many older people.

I've come to believe that an important part of any society is creating a series of positive narrative myths that are increasingly-detailed and nuanced. Why positive? Because introducing negativity in any form early in the education process turns the kids off to receiving anything more on that topic or from that viewpoint. We need optimistic learners, not pessimistic curmudgeons.

So yeah, we're going to lie to you about the number line. We're going to lie to you about history. We're going to lie to you about damned near everything, and a simple search online will prove the lie. But we lie in order to encourage you to rebel, not to indoctrinate. Find the problems and fix them. It's not our business to tell you what they are. Hell, we don't know ourselves. We're in the same boat you are.

This is not a declarative, literal topic. Already comments here decry the big words. So while I agree with you, epistemology is just like any other intellectual super-power: you gotta be able to deal with the repercussions or you shouldn't dive in. The water's deep.

You lose all of that googling around for Wikipedia articles. Long-form books are the only way forward, along with the confidence and intellectual curiosity needed to eventually make a difference.

ganzuul 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

We presume that it is us who have digested the thinness of the veil of reality who should be deciding epistemological questions but it is the younger generations who have grown up in this environment of 'Hacking the Matrix' who have the moral right to do it.

DanielBMarkham 8 hours ago | parent [-]

I'm all for that. Sounds great.

I very well might be wrong. I hope I am, since I can't of any other way to make things work.

mistermann 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Epistemology is probably the only topic that I would recommend being 30+ before you read.

I think you may be on to something, but I would also add that maybe you should consider whether prior to the age of 13 may also be a viable range. I think 13 to it depends is when the problem (roughly, the mind/ego "coming into its own", or something like that) manifests.

hayleyest 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The message is fair and valid, and seemingly true, but cripes, that's some thick reading unless you are literally a scholar. Dial it back. Talk about never use 5 words when an opaque and obscure reference will do.

ryandv 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I'd rather view it as a celebration of good diction, and vocabulary, and the expressiveness of the English language. Maybe some of the literary references are obscure, and most escaped my own knowledge of the literature, but it seems apt to revel in the art of good writing and hold one's self to a higher standard in a piece about literature and written media and books.

Writing for the lowest common denominator is very much characteristic of modern social media and the Internet, where long-form content gives way to shorts and soundbytes and Tweets, and much content is tailored to the algorithm, serving its whims and desires, instead of those of the author and perhaps even the audience. This is what is meant by the character of the medium tinting the messages it carries a shade of digital sepiatone, all the subtleties and nuances of hue lost to oversimplified palettes and cut to 15 seconds before your attention is whisked away by the next item in your feed, or notification sitting in your dock.

Literate content can exist on the Internet but its form will be dictated and constrained by the pressures of the medium, and it's refreshing to see content try to push back against the walls of the medium by resisting the urge to oversimplify.

mathgeek 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I can’t help but imagine some of the folks this message is referring to as “needing to read more” seeing this and dismissing it as using language of “the elites”. There’s a certain irony to it, although the message is a good one.

the-smug-one 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don't think so, I suspect that this is standard fare for the audience of a website called 'lithub.' In the words of gamers: git gud, scrub. (<- light hearted jab)

Mvandenbergh 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Which of those references are obscure?

beezlebroxxxxxx 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I put random paragraphs into a Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level assessment calculator, which suggests the US school grade level required to understand the assessed text. It consistently returned between Grade 8 and 9.

Veen 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Essays have traditionally been discursive, referential, and elaborate. The genre is not intended to be a pragmatic information dump digested in the shortest possible time, but an occasion for laying out an argument while taking pleasure in possibilities of English prose.

cess11 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It's for people that read books and have done so for a long time. That's all it takes to appreciate it, you really don't need to be a scholar.