Remix.run Logo
georgeecollins 4 hours ago

OK, but the model that Valve pioneered is the model that supports 90% of all commercial PC games made today, a higher percentage if you cut out MMOs and free to play games, which you certainly don't own.

I love GoG and I have worked closely with a lot of people there on projects they are great. This announcement seems like good news.

No one has to sell games on Steam. No one has to use a model where they "rent licenses". They could sell you everything DRM free. They don't because too many people pirate games to make that a viable business.

ninth_ant 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> They don't because too many people pirate games to make that a viable business.

This is an opinion, stated as if it’s fact.

There are many factors contributing to the ongoing success of steam. Ease of access, a strong network effect, word of mouth from satisfied customers, a strong ecosystem of tools and a modding platform, willingness to work across many platforms and a variety of vendors including competitors, and more.

Boiling this down to one factor of “too many people pirate” is dramatic oversimplification.

cogogo 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I grew up playing pirated games on the Apple II 35 years ago. The fact that many people pirate is not an opinion.

dmantis 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It doesn't prove that DRM free is not a viable business.

I also grew up pirating, but I haven't been pirating games for more than 10 years now.

A few bucks costs much less to me these days than a headache with finding a cracked version and installing potential malware on my computer. Not even talking about supporting the artists and developers.

Gabe is right that piracy is a service problem. If you have proper easy installers, easy buying, easy refunds and you are from a middle class and higher - it doesn't make sense to download random executables from the internet. And if you have low-income, you won't buy stuff regardless of DRM and just wait someone to crack it.

djtango 42 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Yeah this - people who grew up gaming in the 80s and 90s now have significant disposable income and are time poor. A game that offers tens or hundreds of hours of entertainment is seriously cost effective when a movie ticket costs half a videogame or a round of drinks.

Malware is potentially very expensive if you have any capital (tradfi or defi) that is anywhere near your gaming rig. Even a brokerage of 5 figures isn't worth touching something that could have malware.

Most the games young players play are all service oriented games anyway

2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
Sayrus 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

People pirate Steam Games anyway. Stating that people pirate too much to make it viable is purely opinion and not based on numbers. Sure, for AAA games you get 2 to 3 months without a cracked version, but this stops afterward. For non-AAA games, the steam version is usually crackable from day-1.

CDRdude 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

“Many people pirate” is a different statement than “too many people pirate games to make that a viable business”.

nalekberov an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Games are cracked at day one, sometimes hours after. Apparently DRM is not a solution here. If pirates know that, people at Valve certainly do.

ekianjo 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Piracy is much less endemic nowadays.

Ygg2 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Yeah, because rather than pirating from cracxxxed.warez I can buy the game on Steam/GoG sale for $1.4.

Telaneo 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> They don't because too many people pirate games to make that a viable business.

Given how many games on Steam are sold either DRM free (you can just transfer the files over to another PC and they just work) or functionally DRM free (Steam's DRM is trivially bypassed, so one step removed from DRM free), this doesn't really scan. Other than games with Denuvo and multiplayer games, DRM is a non-issue for actual pirates.

It seems a lot more likely to me that the people in charge will have a fit at the idea of releasing the games DRM free, but don't actually care to know anything about the details. So long as the DRM checkbox is ticked, and they don't know about the fact that Steam's DRM is trivially bypassed, everybody mostly gets what they want.

HeavyStorm 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Also, many such games are on gog DRM free, and certainly pirates don't care where they get their games.

hhh 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes they do. When I used to pirate a lot of games because I was broke I was gleefully happy to see a GOG release.

The scene exists for a reason, it is a very trust based ecosystem.

guizadillas 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Yeah I usually trust anything a girl who is particularly fit repacks

867-5309 3 hours ago | parent [-]

good luck sourcing the (supposedly) malware-free release

computerex 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

People only pirate games because the publishers make it too painful to play games legally. I have pirated games that I own simply because it's easier to play. This pattern has been shown time and time again. When people pirate, it's usually due to a problem with the experience. People pay for convenience.

Now a days a lot of people are pirating games because the quality of games has gone down the drain. Publishers are releasing unfinished games and pricing them at record high. Consumers are pissed at the lack of value.

oriolid 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I'm not completely convinced. When I was a teenager I pirated games because I didn't have money (and games were incredibly expensive back in the day). The people who I copied them from did it to show off their collection and connections, or just because they were my friends.

buran77 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

For people who have no money to spare for games it really doesn't matter if games come with DRM or not. They wouldn't afford them anyway so "for free" is the only option that matters.

For people who have money for games but don't want to pay, the presence of DRM matters very little. 99% of games are usually trivially cracked, especially if you are willing to wait for some days or weeks after launch (an important sales window for the publishers).

For people who have money for games and are willing to pay, DRM turns out to be maybe an inconvenience, but definitely a guarantee that they don't actually own the game. The game can be taken away or even just modified in a way that invalidates the reason people paid in the first place.

mindcandy 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> especially if you are willing to wait for some days or weeks after launch (an important sales window for the publishers).

“Important” is an understatement. Even for long-term success stories, the first three or four months often accounts for half of a game’s revenue.

And, despite so many people theorizing that “pirates don’t have money and wouldn’t pay anyway”, in practice big publishers wait in dread of “Crack Day” because the moment the crackers release the DRMless version, the drop in sales is instant and dramatic.

fwipsy 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Do you have a source for sales data when a crack becomes available? If so, that seems like definitive proof that piracy does affect sales.

badsectoracula 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I'm not completely convinced. When I was a teenager I pirated games because I didn't have money

Yes, but if it was impossible to pirate, you'd still have no money to buy the games, so in the grand scheme of things nothing would change.

andrepd 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The thing is teenagers or poor people or people from third world countries that pirate for financial reasons just would not buy those games regardless. I'm unconvinced that those pirates affect sales in the end to any meaningful degree.

NegativeLatency 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Also teenagers grow up eventually having money to buy the games on their own.

I’m a Diablo and StarCraft fan because of pirated games played during my childhood when I couldn’t convince my parents to let me buy them.

Ygg2 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As a broke ass teenager, yeah I didn't pay for them. Now as big money adult I bought them almost 1.5 times over. Once on GoG and sometimes on Steam.

nurettin 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

When I was a kid, piracy was the norm. If your friend had a game you liked, you would just grab the tape, go home, insert into the recorder and make a copy. I didn't know about buying games or what I did was bad until well into the 90s.

technothrasher 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> I didn't know about buying games or what I did was bad until well into the 90s.

Really? When we were pirating games off each other as teenagers in the early 80s, we absolutely knew we were getting games for free that the publishers wanted us to pay for.

jamespo 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

No, paying nothing is very compelling for a lot of consumers, you can see this in many other areas of content as well.

Mathnerd314 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Research from the University of Amsterdam’s IViR “Global Online Piracy Study” (survey of nearly 35,000 respondents across 13 countries) found that for each content type and country, 95% or more of pirates also consume content legally, and their median legal consumption is typically twice that of non‑pirating legal users.

rvnx 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Fun fact, this study was financed by YouTube to create a legal shield.

In 2017/2018, they were in the position where MPAA and RIAA were saying: "Piracy costs us billions; Google must pay" + they had European Parliament on their ass.

Google financed that 'independent' study to support the view "Piracy is not harmful and encourages legal spend".

So the credibility of "independent" studies, is something to consider very carefully.

fn-mote 3 hours ago | parent [-]

My real world observations agree with the direction of the study, so I don’t entirely dismiss it as fake based on its funding source.

I am cautious about the conclusion, though. It seems clear there is a spectrum from “unscrupulously pirate everything” to “consume legitimately after pirated discovery”, and quantification is necessary.

eviks 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Why do you think this contradicts anything? Heavy users hit a budget limit and continue consuming more via pirating.

You really need something way better than some shoddy survey to counter the obvious fact that price matters

afiori 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Yeah but if a pirate would have not paid the full price why care? It is by definition not a lost sale, the most likely outcome is just an increase by one the player count

eviks 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Because the price isn't binary? Also, the total spend isn't fixed either, it depends on how easy it's to pirate. So it's by definition still lost revenue, even if later/at reduced price

Tarball10 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Not paying full price is not a "lost sale". People unwilling to pay full price wait for a discount or price reduction. Look at how popular the seasonal Steam sales are. Pirating the game very likely means they never purchase it at any price, which _is_ a lost sale.

hsjdndvvbv 17 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

There is more to this RE: perceived value of respective sides.

Edit: missed a word

danaris 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It contradicts the post it was replying to, which was saying, effectively, that people don't want to spend any money on stuff.

I don't think it's required to be making some universal point when you clearly respond to the argument put forward in the post you reply to, do you?

eviks 2 hours ago | parent [-]

No, you misunderstood the comment, it said that paying nothing is compelling, not that paying something was inconceivable or something; it was a response to a comment with a common misconception that pirating is only some "service problem"

rvnx 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Before it was really expensive and difficult to get access to movies or music. Then came Netflix or Spotify. So money is the primary discriminator now, not access. And users without money would not bring revenue anyway

basisword 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>> I have pirated games that I own simply because it's easier to play.

Can you share some examples of instances where the legal route is too difficult? I haven't felt this way in a long time. What are the changes necessary for you to purchase?

yeputons an hour ago | parent | next [-]

One does not have a debit/credit card at all (e.g. they're young, or don't have enough documents, or are an immigrant from a sanctioned country).

Alternatively, the card is rejected because "fraud prevention", see e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46424584

Or the game is not available in my "account's region", which is chosen arbitrarily based on God knows what.

crtasm 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They say they own the game so presumably did purchase it.

Not having to deal with Ubisoft/similar game launchers frequently forgetting my login, nagging to update itself, etc. is one reason I might choose to run a cracked copy.

afiori 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The main reason that Russia had a fame for pirating a lot of software was that a lot of publishers either skipped it as a market or did shitty localisations and pirates offered a far better service.

andoando 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

No they don't. I am tired of this feel good nonsense. I pirated games because it was free and I did not want to pay $60.

Just make your games a donation model if you really believe this. Or lets put up a version of Steam where all the games are free cracked copies of the game and see how it affects sales.

People pay precisely because they dont want to deal with the hassle pf pirating

stavros 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I can pirate games easily, but I buy them on Steam because it's more convenient. If it's too expensive for me, I just never play it (or wait for a deal). I can't be bothered dealing with the installers and the potential viruses and the hassle.

walletdrainer 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I’m fabulously wealthy and still mostly pirate things just because I can’t be bothered dealing with online credit card payments.

Half the time I try to sign up for any of these services I get blocked for fraud because I’m in one country, my billing address in another and my bank in a third. Oh, and when something does work, it only works for a while until they lock the whole account with a bunch of paid content on it.

andoando 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>because it's more convenient

Yes, now imagine if we just removed the barrier to piracy completely. An easy to use client just like Steam, except all the games are free cracked copies.

There is no way thats not going to drop sales.

afiori 2 hours ago | parent [-]

What has been proven many times is that people overwhelmingly choose the least effort/risk option.

A free Steam full of certified pirates games with official games updates would obviously drop sales but this is moot as it will never exist.

Tarball10 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Isn't that exactly what companies use as justification for DMCA and DRM protection?

Without those, you'd have sites full of pirated game downloads easily found through search engines. DMCA takedowns force those sites into shady corners of the internet, making them harder to find and riskier for the average user. And (effective) DRM makes users have to wait for a crack which may take weeks or months.

The result is that it's easier for the average person to just log into Steam/Epic/PSN/eShop and spend $60 to play immediately.

pfisch 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You really can't though, not if the games have an online component or you want the game to be patched/updated as frequently as it would be on steam.

Almost all games these days are basically like a work in progress, so if you pirate them then the game doesn't stay up to date.

Pirating games is just really inconvenient compared to tv/movies/music.

afiori 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If someone pirates 100 60$ games it does not mean that had piracy been impossible they would have spent 6000$ on those games

Tarball10 2 hours ago | parent [-]

They might spend $600 on 10 of those games, though. It's not all-or-nothing.

nh23423fefe 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

thieves lie to protect their self-image. i pirated because free games let me spend my money on stuff i couldn't steal like food at the mall.

i don't pirate anymore because i have a job now.

danielbln 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Copyright infringement is not stealing, and it's not a given that a sale would have happened at all - even if the llicit copy was unavailable.

rantallion 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> They don't because too many people pirate games to make that a viable business.

This is what we've been told since time eternal but it seems more likely that those pirating are those that wouldn't be inclined to pay at all.

4 hours ago | parent | next [-]
[deleted]
doctorpangloss 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

people are commenting in this HN thread like piracy hasn't been thought about, deeply, by many thousands of people for ages in the games industry. i could link to numerous people writing very wise things about it - the CEO of a certain competitor to GOG and Steam comes to mind, he basically wrote the Luther thesis on games piracy - but then i'd be downvoted.

jonasdegendt an hour ago | parent [-]

I’m interested, please link!

sallveburrpi 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

How is GOG a viable business if everything gets pirated?

Kim_Bruning 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This is a really old question and a really old solution.

It turns out that piracy is actually a service problem. Services like Steam and GOG provide a decent enough service that piracy becomes less common.

ThrowawayR2 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Many games on GOG are at the tail end of their sales cycle (i.e. were released on Steam long ago) trying to eke out a few more sales, are from small indies for whom any attention at all is good attention, or are very old^H^H^Hclassic games that garner purchases for nostalgia's sake by older gamers that can afford more discretionary spending.

delaminator 2 hours ago | parent [-]

And many aren’t.

I bought Factorio early access on Gog, and Timberborn, and Loop-Hero.

KronisLV 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> They could sell you everything DRM free. They don't because too many people pirate games to make that a viable business.

Depends on the game and DRM. Nowadays I buy all of my games (a little bit safer than running who knows what on my PC), but when I didn't have a job or money I used to pirate a lot - most DRM protected games would eventually be cracked and made available regardless. If an uncrackable DRM was in place, I wouldn't buy the game - I just wouldn't play it. Depending on the mindset, the same logic applies to someone with money, they might never be a customer regardless of whether it can or cannot be pirated, especially for games that never go on big discounts and sales. I say that as someone who by now owns about ~1000 games in total legally (though mostly smaller indie titles acquired over a lot of years and sales).

The good online stores at least make the act of purchasing and installing games equally if not more convenient than pirating them - something all of those streaming companies that crank up their subscription prices and want to introduce ads would also do well to remember. I like Steam the best because it's a convenient experience, the Workshop mod support is nice, as well as Proton on Linux and even being able to run some games on my Mac, just download and run. I think the last games I pirated were to check if they'd run well on my VR headset, because I didn't want to spend a few hours tweaking graphics settings and messing around just to be denied a refund - in the end they didn't run well, so I didn't play or buy them, oh well.

Also, despite me somewhat doubting the efficacy of DRM (maybe it's good to have around the release time to motivate legit sales, but it's not like it's gonna solve piracy), it better at least be implemented well - otherwise you either get performance issues, or crap that also happens with gaming on Linux with anti-cheat, where you cannot even give the companies money because they can't be bothered to support your platform. Even worse when games depend on a server component for something that you don't actually need for playing the game on your own, fuck that. It's like the big corpos sometimes add Denuvo to their games and then are surprised why people are review bombing them.

SXX 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Valve and Steam dont force DRM on anyone either. Downloader client is ofc DRM in itself, but a lot of games run just fine without Steamworks.

Hammershaft 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Steam uses outsized market power to take an enormous %30 cut so it also does major damage to the games industry.

SXX 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This. As game developer this is a huge problem since outside of top 1% industry is shit poor and platforms squeeze it badly.

Unfortunely needs of game developers and customers are not exactly align. Valve is good steward of their outsized market share when it's comes to gamers interests.

Epic Games tried to shake market with "gamers dont matter" policy (no reviews, no community, worse services) and low fees and failed miserably.

As game developer I'd love to see platform fee of 10%, but as gamer I dont want to buy my games and give power to Tencent, Microsoft or Google.

I could only dream that customer-first platform not owned by VC / PE money like GOG could compete with Steam. Unfortunately unlikely to happen.

TulliusCicero an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

The 30% cut is standard, and was so at retail even before Steam existed IIRC.

Kim_Bruning 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> They don't because too many people pirate games to make that a viable business.

You're saying this about Steam, the 'Piracy is a service problem' company.

EA-3167 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Piracy is widespread, that's undeniable. The question that industry groups and lawmakers love to avoid or lie about however is how much of that piracy represents lost sales, and how much represents people in the third world finding a way to participate with all of the people who can afford it. I pirated a lot as a kid because I had no money, there were no lost sales there. As an adult I don't pirate at all, because I have money, because it's inconvenient now compared to legitimate access.

So I'm perfectly prepared to believe that Steam is a good option (I personally love it), and frankly if the worst happens and the games I pay for go away on Steam... there are options. Once I pay for something I no longer feel any guilt about seeking a backup for example, and neither should you, even if the industry groups count that as a full-sale price theft.

kgwxd 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Once you pay who? Money going to the wrong people is far worse for "creators" in the long run than if you had just copied it. Every digital industry has proven the argument billions of times over. If you're going to bother feeling guilt, aim it at actual injustice.

EA-3167 an hour ago | parent [-]

You’re adding a lot of dimensions to the act of buying something than I care about. I’m not trying to fight injustice when I buy most things, I’m just following the realistic legal requirements to use the thing.