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netcraft 4 days ago

>Less than a month after four towering dams on the Klamath River were demolished, hundreds of salmon made it into waters they have been cut off from for decades to spawn in cool creeks

Do we understand the mechanisms of this "genetic memory" (my words, no idea if its accurate or if there is a better word for it)? Butterflies knowing where to fly even though it was their grandparents that last did it - eels traveling thousands of miles to breed in a place theyve never seen - countless bird migrations - even something as simple as how it takes a human baby 12-18 months to walk but many animals walk as soon as they are born. I would love to understand better how this knowledge is inherited

UniverseHacker 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Salmon have no "genetic memory" - if you release baby salmon from a hatchery that were bred from adults caught elsewhere, they remember where they were released- not where they are genetically from-, and swim back to the area of the hatchery. It appears to be regular memory learned from experience. It is believed to be mostly chemical sensing, e.g. specific smells that they are remembering and returning to.

Salmon are not 100% effective at making it back to their birthplace, and some small fraction stray randomly- which is what allows them to populate new areas and re-populate others where they were wiped out. This article isn't about a lot of salmon - only hundreds, so this is probably the amount that would naturally stray to this region from others, with or without a healthy returning population.

For example, some ~120k chinook salmon returned to the Columbia river this year, so if 0.01% of them strayed to the Klamath river, you'd get about this many.

soulofmischief 4 days ago | parent [-]

Salmon have also displayed possible geomagnetic navigation capabilities, similarly to homing pigeons.

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsbl.2017.075...

tyre 4 days ago | parent [-]

This is how sea turtles do it, too, and why sea turtle release has to happen on the beach despite the higher risk of predators.

They get sand up their nose and calibrate based on the magnetism of the iron, iirc

PittleyDunkin 4 days ago | parent [-]

Humans may be capable of geomagnetic sensing as well. As a human myself, I've got to imagine this is extremely difficult to control for sensing vs other forms of navigation (sun, stars, moon, wind, animal migration, etc.)

soulofmischief 4 days ago | parent [-]

Well for example we've shown that red foxes have strong preference to pouncing in a north-eastern direction, and in other directions their accuracy plummets. It's believed that this is due to geomagnetic sensing.

We've studied how the blue photoreceptors in our retinas are actually magnetoreceptive, meaning in the right conditions, suspended in a fluid, they'll align the the Earth's magnetic field just like a compass needle.

I'd read before that this technique was theorized to be used in fruit flies, with the photoreceptors suspended in a fluid in the eye. But more recent studies have failed to replicate the geomagnetic sensing capabilities of fruit flies.

It's still nuts to imagine what that might look like. Distortions in your vision from magnetic sensing sounds so neat.

wbl 3 days ago | parent [-]

So when will prey evolve to always face southwest?

soulofmischief 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Oh well that's the funny thing, Southwest is the next best direction given that it's on the same axis as northeast.

> a large majority (74%) of successful attacks in high cover were confined to a cluster centred about 20° clockwise of magnetic north with a small (15%) secondary cluster at due south, while attacks in other directions were largely unsuccessful.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3097881/ (there's a nice little chart showing angular preference.

The researchers also mention a previous study they'd worked on in the first paragraph of the introduction, dealing with the geomagnetic alignment of grazing cattle. I hadn't read this one before so I took the time, and it's equally fascinating. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2533210/

wbl 3 days ago | parent [-]

If the fox jumps northeast preferentially prey facing that way will see the fox more often. There is some equilibrium here I can't calculate but that was the thinking behind my joke.

soulofmischief 3 days ago | parent [-]

Oh, yeah that went over my head, that's actually pretty funny.

noworriesnate 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

This is actually a common tenant of rabbit religions FYI

tokai 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Looking at salmon research literature I found a study[0] with the following conclusion:

This study provides convincing empirical support for fine-scale local selection against dispersal in a large Atlantic salmon meta-population, signifying that local individuals have a marked home ground advantage in reproductive fitness. These results emphasize the notion that migration and dispersal may not be beneficial in all contexts and highlight the potential for selection against dispersal and for local adaptation to drive population divergence across fine spatial scales.

Seems like it might simply be that they go where they adapted to thrive.

[0] https://www.science.org/doi/full/10.1126/sciadv.aav1112

tsimionescu 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

That doesn't really explain how they know to find this place, decades after the last time any member of their species visited it. It explains why evolution selected for this behavior, but the more interesting part is how it happens in an individual salmon.

Suppafly 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

>That doesn't really explain how they know to find this place, decades after the last time any member of their species visited it.

Because that's not what happened. These fish managed to get there because it was a good place for them to go, not because they were 'returning' to a place they had been before. The 'return' in the title is more about the fact that they are coming back to fill a niche in an area fish were blocked from, not that these specific fish were returning to a place they had been before. It almost seems like they were intentionally muddying the waters with the language used.

idunnoman1222 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Clearly, the story that salmon go back to spawn and their birth pool is not 100% true

jimnotgym 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They don't. They knew how to find the river already, they just went further up the river now the dam had gone. This is no great feat of navigation, to follow the river until you find nice gravel to spawn in.

inciampati 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In order to survive, you wouldn't want to be wiped out if your home stream vanished. You'd want at least the likely chance of going to another stream to spawn and breed. Probably the salmon just swim upriver when they want to spawn. And it happened to be that now the Klamath is open.

Yeah, there's clearly tendencies for the fish to return to where they were born. I'm sure that's driven by all kinds of complex genetic memories and probably more importantly selective advantage due to adaptation to the specific characteristics of the given stream, but genetic memories for a specific stream seems a little bit unlikely.

RaftPeople 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

This is total and complete speculation, but possibly some sort of genetic or epigenetic driven system favoring some sort of chemical gradient/fingerprint unique to each river, maybe?

jewayne 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> a large Atlantic salmon meta-population

I don't think this finding is necessarily relevant here, because Atlantic salmon are totally different. Pacific salmon always die right after spawning. Atlantic salmon return to the ocean after spawning, and will often spawn multiple times.

jimnotgym 4 days ago | parent [-]

* a proportion of Atlantic salmon return to the sea after spawning, mostly females. Most still die

joe_the_user 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If some salmon group had been simplistically "programmed" to go up these waters, they would have been trying and failing to go up the river during the entire time the dam was there and so likely wiped out as a group/subspecies.

It seems like the fish would have to have had some kind of way to test if the river lead to adequate spawning grounds. And if they had that, they wouldn't really need any memory of any given river.

cutemonster 4 days ago | parent [-]

Another comment says that some salmons (a small fraction) swim up the randomly "wrong" rivers, instead of back to where they were born.

So, a bunch of salmons have been trying each year in the river with that dam? But:

"hundreds of salmons failed to swim past a dam"

didn't break the news

jimnotgym 4 days ago | parent [-]

No. Thousands have been entering and spawning all these years but below the dams. Now the dams are gone some are spawning higher up the river. Not really suprising that they spread out a bit into new habitat, is it?

cutemonster 3 days ago | parent [-]

But that's what I wrote?

> > swim up the randomly "wrong" rivers

And the reason for that is discovering new habitats. But the other comment I referred to, mentions this already so I left that out.

Didn't know about this though:

> spawning all these years but below the dams.

I thought, however, that it'd been funny if such a non-event (the fish didn't ...) had been in the news.

shkkmo 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Do we understand the mechanisms of this "genetic memory"

I don't think there is particular evidence for "genetic" memory here. The salmon were already further down river, they just kept swimming upstream. While most salmon do return to the place of their birth, a small percentage always stray, which is how salmon are able to colonize new habitats and survive things like ice ages.

Suppafly 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

>While most salmon do return to the place of their birth

I wonder to what degree that is even true. Like sure they probably return to the same rivers, but how far up the river they swim is likely unrelated to where they were actually born. If you extend that river further or introduce side streams that didn't exist when they were born, they're probably just as likely to end up in one of those places.

jimnotgym 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Exactly that. They also need the right kind of gravel to spawn in. The kind you find in mountain streams.

Glad they are doing well.

hinkley 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This news is about the end of a dam removal project. I believe this is also the end of the oldest dam removal project. The Klamath and IIRC the local tribes were the original test for salmon restoration/dam breach projects in the PNW, and subsequent programs are copying their success.

One of the things that makes salmon ladders more effective is introducing artificial noise of falling water. Turns out when salmon find themselves in still water they head for the sounds of the inflow, which dams either don't have, or are from spillways that the salmon cannot navigate.

Most salmon want to go back exactly where they are born, and on a three year cycle (or at least, that's the pattern on the Klamath). So if you were to introduce hatchery salmon in 2024, in 2027 and every three years after you'll have a full run, and only a small number of fish in the remaining years. Which probably isn't good for genetic diversity. So you end up having to stock at least 3 times, or just wait and see what happens.

NOAA page listing the history of work on this river (could use a timeline):

https://www.fisheries.noaa.gov/west-coast/habitat-conservati...

Whites Gulch Dam, ca 2008:

https://www.fisheries.noaa.gov/feature-story/building-networ...

astura 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> how it takes a human baby 12-18 months to walk but many animals walk as soon as they are born.

This is because humans are born with, comparably, extremely immature brains. The animals that can walk after birth are born with more mature brain development than humans are born with, so they are capable of walking.

https://www.livescience.com/9760-study-reveals-infants-walk....

evilduck 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

It's not completely brain development, look up the stepping reflex in human babies. Humans are just as neurally pre-wired to walk as foals are on day one but we're also born long before we're anywhere near strong enough to do it, it takes at least another 6 months of physical growth and strengthening out of the womb before babies even try.

netcraft 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

sure - but how did a horse foal learn how to walk within an hour of their legs being in contact with the ground? Or even for human babies, how are they hard wired to search for milk or even breathe?

gherkinnn 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Humans and horses don't share the same evolutionary pressures. A foal gets eaten if it can't walk right away, we don't. Evidently our super brains are worth all the hassle. Unsatisfactory answer, maybe.

4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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gambiting 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

>>or even breathe

The same way your heart "knows" how to beat - it's a lower level function that happens without your conciousness. That's why people who are brain dead still live and breathe and swallow and digest and their hearts livers and kidneys still do their job.

>>how are they hard wired to search for milk

The ones who didn't died, to put it bluntly. Obviously not human babies, this evolutionary step happened long long time before the earliest hominids.

JumpCrisscross 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

> same way your heart "knows" how to beat - it's a lower level function that happens without your conciousness

Heart cells in a Petri dish will happily beat away.

s1artibartfast 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That isn't an explanation of how it works.

This is kinda like explaining how a car works with "you fire and replace engineers until it moves".

netcraft 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

totally - but to be clear the question I have is more like "where in the body is this knowledge encoded (for lack of a better term)"

Do you have neurons in your brain that are pre-wired for these things? Is that encoded in your DNA? Like physically how is it inherited and the selective pressures applied?

zamfi 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Yes, yes, and you got it. Largely it’s DNA that controls development of neurons/muscles/etc. that mediate nursing, walking, and so on.

On selective pressures: human babies that aren’t born with the ability to nurse, or foals born without the ability to walk—because their in-utero development didn’t allow it—historically don’t survive, and thus don’t reproduce.

detourdog 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I think it's a chemical structure reacting to an energetic stimulus.

kranner 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There could be an environmental feature they prefer in that spot.

Edit: the article mentions lower concentration of harmful algae and a cooler temperature.

joseda-hg 4 days ago | parent [-]

But then how are they aware of those conditions Also, the preference usually is more on the side of where they're born vs optimal proper placement

chmod775 4 days ago | parent [-]

Nice water flows downstream, terminates in the ocean. They simply follow it back upstream.

jagged-chisel 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

I’m with you on this. Found some tasty water? Swim towards it. It gets tastier the further we go? Keep going.

rightbyte 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

So how do they find the river outlet into the ocean? There surely is some bird compass thing involved. I am only half joking when I write that Venus guides them.

That nature works at all is astonishing.

jaggederest 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

It's all chemoception, the same as with single cell organisms. They swim towards a saline gradient ( which they can taste, for sure ) and follow it up into fresher and fresher water.

bad_haircut72 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Word gets around? Animals probably have way better communication than we think. One crab says to a friendly eel "hey dont tell those damn Salmon but this estuary is good again" and before you know it, everyone's favourite restaurant is booked out till March.

cruffle_duffle 4 days ago | parent [-]

I used to go to this estuary until it became too crowded.

monknomo 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Yeah, no need to make this complicated.

Angostura 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Thanks, I was bang my head on this one, until you suggested a nice simple solution

conradev 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The book Bird Sense by Tim Birkhead covers birds’ magnetic sense in Chapter 6. Research has demonstrated that seabirds have a magnetic map and compass that they use to navigate home, but it doesn’t discuss how this knowledge is inherited.

I believe Salmon use a similar mechanism, but it might be supplemented with chemical signatures. For Salmon, it’s possible that they genetically inherit the capability but learn the location at birth.

Aurornis 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

> seabirds have a magnetic map and compass that they use to navigate home, but it doesn’t discuss how this knowledge is inherited.

It’s not something that was decided by one ancestor and then inherited by everyone else.

It was something that certain birds had a tendency to prefer. Those birds thrived and reproduced at a higher rate, while birds without that preference presumably found less suitable homes.

It’s just natural selection and normal genetic variance. Some offspring every year will be born with slightly difference preferences due to the influence of various genetic differences. Some of those differences will be more beneficial for finding a good “home”, others less so.

There was a recent report of a very confused penguin showing up on a beach far from their normal habitat. Apparently this happens every once in a while. Those cases did not win the genetic lottery (though hopefully it made it back to a more suitable climate)

s1artibartfast 4 days ago | parent [-]

For animals like seabirds, a big part of the location could be non-genetic, as birds have different home roosts.

I would add that there can be many local maxima, so it isnt always about finding less suitable homes. Birds of the same species can have different homes.

shkkmo 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Salmon do use magnetic senses to navigate the oceans as well, but it is an acute sense of smell (among other things) that allows (most of) them to return to the headwaters of their birth.

idunnoman1222 4 days ago | parent [-]

None of those salmon were born there because the Damn was in the way

jimnotgym 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

They were born in the lower part of the river, below the dam. They just followed it up a bit!

4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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shkkmo 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Water flows downstream. The water the Salmon were born is smells substantially the same as the water that is from up river, that chemical content will change as tributaries enter the river but you'll probably see greater variations between forks than between spots of the same river.

senord 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

these are hatchery fish; they were born on the klamath and they're returning to it. the only difference is that now they can make it to tributaries and spawn naturally, instead of being collected and having their eggs harvested and fertilized by humans back at the hatchery

withinrafael 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I was also curious about how a popular beaver [1] was raised by humans and "instinctively" knew how to build dams.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DggHeuhpFvg

BurningFrog 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's not a genetic memory. They return to the place they were born. This is probably based on the "scent" of that place, and maybe other factors.

Some percentage either accidentally or deliberately go up a different river, which is how the species spreads. That's very likely who this story is about.

EasyMark 4 days ago | parent [-]

I think the point is if they "return to the place they are born" then why would they go back to the waterways freed up by destroying this damn. Clearly they have some heirachy in where they prefer to spawn and this place is at or near the top, or they would have opted to return to where they were born

BurningFrog 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Most of them go back to their birthplace, but some end up elsewhere.

If that's a "deliberate" evolutionary strategy or just that 100% navigation success doesn't happen is unknowable.

piuantiderp 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Might just be some kind of salinity thing. Upstream -> Less minerals dissolved

MrMcCall 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I know it's going to sound like a bunch of hooey, but information really is the most intrinsic element of all aspects of this universe, especially when it comes to life. The life force is a thing that is interrelated with our physical bodies, but is not the physical body. It's just like the zen concept of "Not 2, not 1". Our minds have the same relationship with our brains. They're not separate, they're not the same; they're interrelated.

That we can't "see" the other side of the connection with our science is due to our science being built with our physical world's constituents (matter & energy), thus those other dimensions are immeasurable with our science's tools. Rupert Sheldrake speaks of this when he says that the genetic code's protein construction genes do not and can not account for the resulting organism's shape. That coordinated construction requires a separate guiding force. That interrelationship is similar to the "memory" that creatures such as salmon have, which is intrinsic to their entire being, not just their physical body, which is only half of our being's totality.

snowwrestler 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Whether or not this is “true,” it’s not explanatory.

Someone asked how a thing works, and the answer above is essentially just restating that it does in fact work, for some ineffable, immeasurable reason.

So while interesting to think about, it’s not a useful response to the question.

MrMcCall 4 days ago | parent [-]

We understood that Mercury's orbit was wrong per Newton's laws long before Einstein came along to explain to us why.

Whether or not something is true is always the beginning of a scientific exploration.

snowwrestler 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Of course, but if we don’t know how something works, it’s ok to just say “we don’t know yet.”

There may in fact be physical, measurable mechanisms that govern these types of animal behavior. Just like there was a physical, measurable explanation for Mercury’s orbit.

MrMcCall 4 days ago | parent [-]

Yes, but it was Einstein's imagination that provided the theoretical framework that allowed the longstanding physical measurement to line up. If his imagination was limited by Newton's laws, he would have never come up with GR. If he had said that mass causes time to vary, he would have been laughed out of the room, with much ad hominem shouting.

What I'm saying here is that we need to push beyond our current scientific paradigms to find out how these inexplicable corner cases actually work. As well, I do realize that the depth of exploration required will be further than most people are willing to plumb, which is demonstrated by the in-their-feelings reactions to my ideas.

cruffle_duffle 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

And now dark matter is throwing a wrench in Einstein’s stuff. Like Newton’s laws, Einstein’s stuff gets is mostly right (impressively so, even!) but breaks inside black holes and doesn’t seem to exactly line up with what we observe about what keeps galaxies in tact.

And I’m sure whatever we discover that “solves” for dark matter will eventually start showing cracks as well, prompting another deep inquiry into the nature of our universe.

Good times.

MrMcCall 4 days ago | parent [-]

5/6ths of the universe's matter is missing, or thereabouts. That fact aligns with there being six vibrationally distinct dimensions in our 3-space (our physical dimension being just one of them, our soul inhabiting its counter-dimension, all things in our universe having been created in pairs). The matter/energy from each dimension are distinct, so we can't detect the others using instruments made with ours, yet -- somehow, I don't know how -- the mass combines to contribute to the gravitational inertia that keeps the galaxies from flying apart.

That said, when we slam particles together at high enough energies, we do see crossover (briefly) in the form of anti-particles. I couldn't begin to explain the mechanisms behind this, but the structure can be known to seekers of compassionate existence. This is also a hint to the solution to the question of why, after the Big Bang, we don't have an anti-matter left; the answer is that it's where it is, but that we can't detect it with our current tech (or maybe any tech, for all I know).

The universe was made to be known by we human beings, we being the information processors designed to work in harmony with this information-theoretic universe, which is fully queryable by a suitable trained mystic.

A Sufi Murshid (teacher) lived his entire life in a single town that consisted of a single pair of roads that met in the center of town. Late in his life, he stated that, he "knew the stars of the Milky Way better than he knew his town". (A love-consumed mystic remains conscious as our souls leave our bodies when we sleep. What is called astral travel is not limited by our physical body's speed laws; it is bounded only by the "speed of thought".)

Sufi stories are glimpses of corner cases meant to spur us to push past our "known" boundaries. We need to get this world at peace before we can explore our advanced abilities. As Louis Armstrong said, "If lots more of us loved each other, man, this world would be a gasser!"

hiatus 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

> A Sufi Murshid (teacher) lived his entire life in a single town that consisted of a single pair of roads that met in the center of town. Late in his life, he stated that, he "knew the stars of the Milky Way better than he knew his town". (A love-consumed mystic remains conscious as our souls leave our bodies when we sleep. What is called astral travel is not limited by our physical body's speed laws; it is bounded only by the "speed of thought".)

Do you have any suggested material/resources where I can learn more?

MrMcCall 4 days ago | parent [-]

This appears to only be in German: https://zwwa.de/

But this site has a few different languages, selectable in the upper-right corner of the page: https://mihr.com/

Note that the bulk of the teachings are about self-evolution via transmuting our vices into their corresponding virtues. It is that transformation that unlocks our ability to consciously travel during sleep.

The key to all such teachings is that becoming consumed by compassion is the real goal; all else is just added benefit.

As Steel Pulse put it so eloquently so long ago, "Love is the golden chord that binds all commandments." It is also the scaffolding that boosts our abilities to their greatest height; but, in reality, the spiritual path is really about stripping away our selfish ego-nature that impedes our realizing our full potential.

Peace be with you.

lupusreal 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> our soul

Is there any empirical test for such things?

idunnoman1222 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

And they’re never will be > without faith, God is nothing > If there was proof in God, you would have to worship him. That’s not the world we live in.

MrMcCall 4 days ago | parent [-]

Loving God is not for God's benefit, for It can gain nothing from us. Loving It reflects back into our consciousness, thereby helping us become love-oriented.

Our free will is so sacrosanct that we are free to deny that we even have it, and free to be self-defeating fools living in the misery of our selfishness.

There is a better way, though. The choice is yours, my friend.

Tijdreiziger 4 days ago | parent [-]

You hypothesize that a god/creator exists, yet you do not show any convincing argument that this is the case.

If you want to make the argument that a god/creator does in fact exist, it’s up to you to show why.

cruffle_duffle 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There may well never be. Not everything about our existence is knowable. An uncomfortable fact, indeed.

MrMcCall 4 days ago | parent [-]

It is not uncomfortable once we realizing that we are but a mote, a talented mote in charge of the Earth, but a mote nonetheless. Once reaching humility, we are then free to bask in the glory of being a human being with the power to choose selfless love or selfish foolery, the power to learn and explore this magnificent universe full of wonder.

Reaching out to become love, we find peace in service, joy in our every interaction.

And, yes, via Castaneda's Don Juan, there is the known, the unknown, and the unknowable. The Creator of all that will ever exist is Unfathomable, Timeless, the Ultimate Loner, but we are capable of communing in some small extent with It, learning a tiny sliver of Its Nature.

MrMcCall 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

The test is to connect with our Creator and ask for the proof you seek. It is why we are here, but we are free to choose to ignore our potential, because our free will is so freely given that we are free to choose ignorance over fulfilling humanity's highest purpose.

In the clarity of communing with love, our subjective reality is harmonized with the truth of existence, thus our knowing transcends thinking. It is our highest purpose, but like all great loves, it is freely given with no obligation, only responsibility for our choices and their effects upon others.

As Rumi said, "The Way goes in." I have described this process more fully in other comments.

Peace be with you.

lupusreal 4 days ago | parent [-]

Okay sure, faith is fine and I don't oppose people being religious, but it seems very strange to slot this stuff into a discussion about physics if it's not empirical.

EasyMark 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

what you're saying is basically untestable and that's why most scientific minded people only talk about such things over beers or dismiss it entirely. It's not unlike religion or crystals. I mean we can't necessarily disprove them as they are based mostly on faith in an untestable conclusion.

MrMcCall 4 days ago | parent [-]

I suggest that our universal resistence to such ideas is the result of a concerted effort upon our minds and hearts to convince us to embrace selfishly ignorant foolishness rather than selflessly wise service.

There is talk here on HN about mathematical reasoning but no one talks about how our systems would affect the Earth differently if we used compassion as our modus operandi instead of for-profit plundering of the Earth for selfish profit. That is because selfishness is our default state -- an animalistic state -- and we must choose to transcend it by self-evolving ourselves beyond our selfishness, and into humanitarian systems that cooperate instead of compete.

If you wish to find out how to know the truth in your own subjectively objective reality, browse my other comments. You have your own internal connection that allows the unlocking of your full human potential. Becoming consumed with compassion is a necessary part of that transformation, but we are each free to choose selfishness, and, indeed, most have and are choosing the selfish path. That selfishness is behind every single atrocity ever perpetrated, as well as the spoiling of the Earth for our future generations. For people that choose to become better, the changes come slowly and with drawbacks, but with all art, perseverance and steady effort to improve is the key to success.

We each have the power to rise above that animal selfishness and instead choose to design societies of compassionate service to one and all. That path of love is our only hopeful path forward.

Tijdreiziger 4 days ago | parent [-]

If selfishness were our default state (as you state) no baby would ever be nursed. No wounded person would be treated. No missing person would be searched for.

MrMcCall 4 days ago | parent [-]

There are degrees; complete sociopathy is unlikely because it defeats self-preservation. Most people are mostly selfish towards out-groups. But, yeah, some mothers are really selfish.

roughly 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Rupert Sheldrake speaks of this when he says that the genetic code's protein construction genes do not and can not account for the resulting organism's shape. That coordinated construction requires a separate guiding force.

Of course there's a separate guiding force. It's the biochemical environment around the cell. Cells operate on chemical signals they receive from their environment and generate the same; these cause cells to differentiate themselves based on their genetic code, which where the resulting organism's shape comes from. This isn't some kind of mystery, we know how this works, and matter & energy are indeed sufficient to explain it.

Aurornis 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Rupert Sheldrake speaks of this when he says that the genetic code's protein construction genes do not and can not account for the resulting organism's shape.

> That interrelationship is similar to the "memory" that creatures such as salmon have, which is intrinsic to their entire being, not just their physical body, which is only half of our being's totality.

This is all pseudoscience and borderline religious thinking. Rupert Sheldrake and others pushing this line of thinking are not grounded in reality or science.

I’m surprised this is the most upvoted sub comment at the time I’m responding. Is pseudoscience like this really becoming so pervasive that comments like this pass as good information?

MrMcCall 4 days ago | parent [-]

Well, when your science explains where the 5/6ths of the missing matter in the universe is, or where the "dark energy" is, I'm all ears.

Also, you can try to explain how individual proteins arrange themselves into bilaterally symmetrical, organ-infused organisms of astounding complexity, using only protein recipes.

I know you can't explain it, but that doesn't mean you won't try.

There is the known, the unknown, and the unknowable. For many, entire branches of the unknown are unknowable because they refuse to expand their criteria for how they evaluate the facts. Sherlock Holmes' father had a quote to the effect about once you have eliminated the possible, all that's left is the impossible (bad paraphrase, I know).

Aloisius 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

That’s beyond bad paraphrasing - that's the polar opposite of the original.

When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

MrMcCall 4 days ago | parent [-]

Thanks for that. I stand corrected.

But my comment was geared towards those who believe that what I am suggesting is impossible, so to them, the only possibilities left are what they consider impossible.

My favorite quote from Holmes is the slightly modified one in Jeremy Brett's version of "The Naval Treaty":

"What a lovely thing a rose is. There is nothing in which deduction is so necessary as in religion. It can be buit up as an exact science by the reason. The highest assurance of the goodness of Providence seems to me to rest in the flowers. It is only goodness which gives excellence, and so I say again, we have much to hope from the flowers."

[The entire high-def Jeremy Brett Sherlock Holmes tv show series can be found on YouTube.]

Aurornis 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> Also, you can try to explain how individual proteins arrange themselves into bilaterally symmetrical, organ-infused organisms of astounding complexity, using only protein recipes.

The problem is that you’re conflating “I don’t understand it” with “it must be magic”

A hallmark of charlatans and pseudoscience pushers has been to find something they can claim is the boundary of scientific knowledge (often incorrectly) and then assert that everything past that line therefore is magic.

It’s a tale as old as time. Yet every time we make new discoveries they just move the line a little further and claim the magic must be over there now.

Another classic move is to make extraordinary assertions (magical hidden forces) but then when anyone objects they try to push the burden of proving the opposite on to the other person. That’s something you’re doing throughout this thread perhaps with realizing how irrational it all is.

abid786 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

This is a bunch of pseudoscience that isn't proven by anything at all and isn't peer reviewed either

MrMcCall 4 days ago | parent [-]

And your proof that it's wrong is ... ?

That would make your counterargument a pseudo-counterargument, no?

It's just reaching into one's feelings/nether-regions and blabbering out some words.

You don't even have a sensible counter-theory, right?

calfuris 4 days ago | parent [-]

The vast majority of possible explanations for anything are wrong, so "correct unless disproven" is not a sensible default. Your evidence that it's right is ... ?

MrMcCall 4 days ago | parent [-]

I can't provide what is, by definition, subjective proof. You must seek and find it yourself, in accordance with our shared universe, which has the same interface with you as it does with me. You could not look at me and comprehend the truth of what my life's choices have wrought upon my being, the happiness my family experiences, even within our poverty. No, you surely can easily deny that as well, and it is your free will's ability to do just that.

But it is also within your potential to treat me better than Eugene Parker's or Boltzman's contemporaries treated them, and instead keep an open mind and open heart and follow the path laid in front of us all that allows us to cure ourselves of our destructive selfishness and begin a new path forward.

If you look through my other comments you can find a more detailed description of the key that unlocks the necessary doors, and with them our latent abilities, which include knowing instead of just thinking.

thaumasiotes 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> even something as simple as how it takes a human baby 12-18 months to walk but many animals walk as soon as they are born.

That's just a matter of muscular development. Human babies are born early; I believe this is usually attributed to the difficulty of getting the head through the birth canal.

ssnistfajen 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

My 100% speculation is emergent behaviour from the brain itself. Same way human interactions have remained largely the same over thousands of years. Also, we don't notice the salmon that swam up dead ends elsewhere.

locallost 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The story about eels is especially fascinating. I was told in my fishing course they can even get across small patches of land to continue on their journey. I did not bother to fact check it though.

jncfhnb 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Human babies physically cannot walk. It’s not merely a knowledge check.

Pretrained brain modules aren’t the most surprising thing. Humans have plenty of pre trained behaviors, some of which kick in a while after birth.

DFHippie 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

> Human babies physically cannot walk. It’s not merely a knowledge check.

They physically cannot walk, but they also don't know how to. We know this because they need to practice and acquire skill. If they are deprived of opportunity to learn but their body continues to mature, their mature body does not give them the mature skill.

jncfhnb 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

It may be that humans practice things, but they’re still mostly pretrained capabilities that activate. Most of walking and balance is subconscious and not “learned” via experience. We have dedicated neural hardware for this.

Language processing is another example. There’s dedicated neural hardware designed for this specific task.

Retric 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Practice itself is an instinctual behavior.

Evolution isn’t limited to direct methods, as long as it works that’s enough.

mekoka 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Are you saying that a human left to their own devices would not eventually walk? That walking erect is mimicry?

jncfhnb 4 days ago | parent [-]

I think they’re saying a human that was not able to practice walking would not be able to walk even if their muscles were fine; like an inverted Neo waking up from the matrix.

It’s hard to imagine it being possible to test but I think they’re wrong.

mekoka 4 days ago | parent [-]

That's why I'm asking to clarify what they meant. Because from observing how quickly other animals (including other apes) acquire motor skills from birth, I don't see why we should attribute walking to a practiced skill for human infants, rather than a physical sturdying of their body to sustain the activity.

MisterBastahrd 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I never crawled. My parents were worried, they went to doctors who assured them that I was mostly alright, and then one day, I got up and started walking.

I saw the exact same behavior with my ex-gf's sister's son, who we took in after he was in foster care from birth. The child had clearly not been engaged with properly... the back of his head was bald because he was always on his back in a cramped bassinette and at 11 months he hadn't even learned to turn over. Within 3 months of being with us, he was walking.

snowwrestler 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The simplest answer in this specific case is that there is no genetic memory involved, and salmon will just swim upstream into any fresh water stream they come across.

lawlessone 4 days ago | parent [-]

Could be very very simple.

Swim until you can't anymore?

Swim until the current is very weak?

Swim until the water smells/tastes nice?

Someone could probably simulate these and see which matches reality the most.

Aurornis 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Do we understand the mechanisms of this "genetic memory" (my words, no idea if its accurate or if there is a better word for it)?

It’s not actually a memory that gets encoded in genes.

It’s a tendency to behave in certain ways as influenced by combinations of genes

Ancestors who had the same tendencies, drives, and preferences would have some similar behaviors, resulting in some of them going toward the same places.

So not an actual memory that gets inherited, more like personality traits (but in a more general sense) that lead to similar outcomes.

There is a field of epigenetics which studies heritable changes in cells that occur without DNA alteration, but these signals are much simpler than memories and not a mechanism for carrying memories across generations. A lot of pseudoscience has been written around epigenetics right now so you have to be careful about where you source info on this.

tejtm 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

magnets...

but I am not even kidding. they include a tiny bit of magnetic material in their ear. but it must be a genetic construct that informs them what to do with north, they use it to move to particular undersea canyons out in the ocean they have never been to.

nf3 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It is a mystery, like lots of other phenomena that science fails to explain. Personally I think all those creatures are much more intelligent and aware than we give them credit for. Viewing these creatures as simple automatons is as silly as viewing humans as such.

baxtr 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I’d assume that evolution in salmon is just not fast enough to catchup with the dam.

EDIT: I don’t mean that as a joke. I think on the timescale of evolution the dam was never there.

mulmen 4 days ago | parent [-]

Ok but the first generation to hit the dam died there and had no offspring. Any salmon spawning in these streams have no connection to pre-dam salmon.

baxtr 4 days ago | parent [-]

Right. But their genes do.

You assume: hit the dam > died.

mulmen 4 days ago | parent [-]

Yeah pretty much. That’s why the dams were breached.

jimnotgym 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

No it isn't. The remaining salmon population spawned below the first dam because their habitat was cut off. This reduced spawning and juvenile habitat meant less salmon. Now they have the whole river they are spreading out and the numbers can increase again

baxtr 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

And why there still left then?