| ▲ | grumbel 18 hours ago |
| I really don't get those takes. AI is the best thing that ever happened to the Free Software world, it is basically turning any software into Free Software. You can just throw file formats, protocols or even plain binaries at the AI and it'll reverse engineer everything in a pinch. Users can finally modify software themselves, which was always the goal of the Free Software world, but very rarely happened in actuality, since it was just so damn complicated. AI lowered the barrier of entry tremendously, not just in terms of required knowledge, but especially time. Same with Creative Commons, sharing art and stuff, was a nice gesture, but rarely useful, since the level of work to modify a work to fit your project was pretty close to just doing it from scratch anyway. With AI everybody can toy around with image generators and get what they want. Is a social contract being broken? Yeah, kind of, but the problems that that contract existed to solve are no longer a thing. Creation is now easy and commodified. We finally have computer we can interact with in natural language, something people tried to do for at least 70 years and never made any significant progress on until LLM arrived. If you want to gatekeep or only create stuff to boost your own ego or portfolio, then AI might be an issue, if you actually want to build stuff, AI is godsend. We are essentially living in the StarTrek future with Holodecks and replicators and people still find reason to complain. |
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| ▲ | geraneum 17 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| The reality is that no one was gatekeeping you or anyone else from doing whatever you wanted with free software. The barriers were knowledge, understanding, expertise, and hard work, none of which AI fixes for you. The premise here is that you can accomplish what you couldn’t before without actually understanding the concepts or putting in the same effort. _There is undeniably utility in that_, but I don’t see any strong argument for why it is beneficial to free software in general. It's not even clear whether it has been a net positive or negative so far, though it is undeniably a win for the corpos. Relieving yourself of thinking and effort, whether through a machine or another human, is not the liberating force you think it is, especially when that effort isn't just grunt work, but the very process that helps you develop and grow. |
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| ▲ | genghisjahn 17 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I’m not sure why the lights come on when I flip the switch. I can hand wave and say “electricity” but I suspect there’s more to it. | | |
| ▲ | geraneum 16 hours ago | parent [-] | | For anyone interested, this is misapplied “reductio ad absurdum”. It doesn’t work. | | |
| ▲ | mitxela 16 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I thought it was an analogy to people handwaving "free software" without truly understanding that people sacrifice their entire lives to make it work and that's still insufficient. | |
| ▲ | joquarky 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | That doesn't even make sense unless you are intentionally projecting a specific outcome. | | |
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| ▲ | itsalwaysgood 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The reality is same for your angle: nothing is gatekeeping or stopping anyone from developing the craft the old way, and keeping 'thinking' so strong. Perhaps there are other ways to strengthen thinking, though? The sole issue here is compensation. The answer is an uncomfortable one, or one with a lot more regulation that can't be enforced on a global level. Oversimplifying to see if there's anything worth examining...but imagine:
subscriptions to organizations whose sole purpose is to train AI. They're compensated as the AI service is consumed by the public. The public pays a tax to finance AI growth, and the tax is divided to the organizations, to pay out to members. Members are incentivized to 'keep the craft alive' and train incoming members. Since that is a huge change and I'm talking out of my ass, I'll point out something more realistic: we'll probably just write up some more red tape and hope for the best on the global stage. It's a complex topic for sure. | | |
| ▲ | geraneum 13 hours ago | parent [-] | | > The reality is same for your angle: nothing is gatekeeping or stopping anyone from developing the craft the old way That’s not my angle, but I’ll grant you that for the moment: > The sole issue here is compensation. Not the case here. Majority (as in contributors) of open source work is selfless uncompensated work. Note that it’s not to disagree/agree with the broader point of AI’s impact. It’s just beside my point. | | |
| ▲ | itsalwaysgood 13 hours ago | parent [-] | | Free software has two cases for free: free as in 'free drink', and free as in 'free to change'. The first use of free is definitely improved by AI, it's the second use of free that bothers the author. There's too much AI slop and PRs, and it's impossible for the author to identify 'good PRs' from bad ones. There's too much volume of change to sift through, and so the ability to change software is stifled. What can you do then? Either close the repo to the public, or limit who can send you feedback: as it is now, there's too much volume for reviewers to keep. It's too difficult to validate 'AI Slop' from quality code written by someone who 'has put in the time' and done their due diligence. Someone who has done this wastes less time for the reviewer, and probably improves the quality of the 'free beer' product. Are you suggesting, AI hasn't improved the first case of free, 'free drink'? It's certainly an issue for the second case, 'free to change', but it seems like there are things that can be done to help with those problems: but it adds more churn and probably requires more time (unless I'm misunderstanding things here: which is very possible). |
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| ▲ | grumbel 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > The barriers were knowledge, understanding, expertise, and hard work, none of which AI fixes for you. The biggest barrier was time, there are only 24 hours in the day and no amount of hard work or knowledge is going to change that. There are just some fundamental limits of what you can accomplish as a single person in that time. And good luck trying to find contributors who want to work for free, when they already are busy with their own projects. AI just fundamentally turns that around and gives you a whole bunch of extremely capable co-workers that you can let deal with all the problems you do not want to waste your time on and they let you focus on the stuff that actually matters to you. | | |
| ▲ | II2II 16 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > The biggest barrier was time I am going to agree, albeit from an entirely different perspective. My job has nothing to do with programming. Aside from administrative tasks, my job has nothing to do with computers. Yet I know how to program and I realize that automating those administrative tasks will have huge benefits for me. The problem is my employer doesn't pay me to write code, so I never got around to that automation. Realistically speaking, writing that code without AI would not offer much in the way of understanding or expertise. Most of it is: "look up X, if A then B, else C, iterate" type tasks. There is a barrier in knowledge with respect to library calls, but that's pretty close to junk knowledge (it's rapidly obsoleted, and useless if I need to interface with different software). So the choice is between doing without, or spending a lot of time picking up tasks that are of no value to me. Time was the barrier. These arguments also remind me a lot of the microcomputer revolution: a heck of a lot of mainframe COBOL and FORTRAN developers were critical of underpowered computers and toy programming languages. The reality is that it opened up opportunities for a new generation of developers, and new types of software was created because the problem solvers were closer to the problem. | |
| ▲ | rafterydj 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | AI does not fundamentally turn that around, with "that" being as you say the fact that there are only 24 hours in the day and that a single person could only accomplish so much. Your mistake is one I see everywhere these days, and that is the belief that a given problem with which YOU do not want to waste your time, are actually problems which are not worth doing by anyone. When examined I think this idea is obviously wrong, and misanthropic at heart. People prioritizing different things are still valuable. The reason free software has progressed up until AI has been a combination of economic conditions and unrivalled passion on the part of the developers. The SQLite project has taken 20 years to optimize, and the creator still says there is work to be done. Contrast that career spanning work with a pattern AI encourages of builders: offload the difficult or boring parts, get something barely functional, move on to the next thing. Building like this leaves you with no more experience than you already had to begin with. As another commenter said, there is undeniable and very exciting utility in that being an option! The class of "easy pickings" in projects has widened tremendously in size. I agree with you when you say that it has the power to let you focus on the stuff that actually matters to you. Software configurability is going to be a major priority! However, and I think you'd agree since we both feel free software was and is inherently complicated, configurability of software is only useful with the knowledge of how to put it to best use, like any other tool. If we were to give a laptop with Claude to a technical layperson, would they not immediately attempt to build without taking the time to understand (for example) what a database is? And when encountering problems beyond their understanding and only expecting the AI "to fix it", would they not be turned away from the tool entirely? These problems may not matter to one who DOES understand the nature of software, but they do matter overall. | |
| ▲ | wpietri 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The biggest barrier for people with knowledge, understanding, expertise, and the willingness to work hard was certainly time. But there were a lot of people with plenty of time that never got anything done. In the beforetimes there were a lot of would-be founders running around looking for people who actually knew things and could do things (that is, technical cofounders). Will some of those people use Claude Code to make successful products on their own? A few, I'm sure. But I expect a lot of them will stay ignorant fools who have prompted their way to a pile of garbage. I can be confident of that because there were plenty of founders with FFF money who could suddenly hire "capable coworkers" that produced garbage. "AI" is certainly removing barriers. But as I deal with a big increase in polished but idiotic email and PRs, I have to think that barriers were helpful both to the world at large (by keeping fools at bay) and to the promising but incompetent (by giving them a chance to build character and wisdom). | |
| ▲ | geraneum 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > The biggest barrier was time. Only if you have all the rest sorted, and that’s a big if. It’s also circular. You need time to achieve most of it. > And good luck trying to find contributors who want to work for free, when they already are busy with their own projects. Nothing against that. As I mentioned, there’s utility there. I don’t think it’s bad to put these tools to use. But this idea of having “a bunch of extremely capable co-workers that you can let deal with all the problems” without understanding what they do or reviewing their output (due to whatever reason), in other words putting the effort and understanding the output, is exactly what I was talking about. | |
| ▲ | hparadiz 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | A lot of these people didn't really care about those virtues they claim they represent. They just wanted power and control over something. |
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| ▲ | teaearlgraycold 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | New layer of abstraction. Someone needs to understand how to build that old C library and reprogram that embedded controller, but it doesn't need to be me. Give someone infinite possibilities. Tell them they can have any software change they want. Everyone will have some good ideas. Some people will be head and shoulders above the rest. Being able to do anything (not that LLMs exactly deliver on that goal) doesn't mean you'll do something interesting. It doesn't mean you'll invent a product worth paying for, or impress many people, or make anyone particularly happy or inspired. |
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| ▲ | r053bud 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| None of your arguments hold any water if big-corpo AI restricts open-weight models - which they very clearly want to do. AI is NOT “the best thing that ever happened to the Free Software world” if our only option is to pay a select few companies to use it. |
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| ▲ | roenxi 17 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Those arguments are independent of the state of OSS models. There appears to be no moat whatsoever on creating state of the art models commercially - the US threw the kitchen sink at China in terms of sanctions and barriers ... yet it has been unable to keep Chinese companies away from the frontier (arguably ahead in small local models with Qwen). Even if all the models were proprietary we'd expect the costs and capabilities to be widely available. The Europeans might even be able to field their own advanced models eventually. OSS models are strategically important, but that is a different matter to getting value out of them for OSS software development. | | |
| ▲ | amlib 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Consumers are way too fickle to pursue open models en masse. Even if they are 90% as good and fairly easy to use (works acceptably on most machines, easy installation, whatever), they will still go for the ones controlled by big corportions/big tech. Look at how consumers deal with free, open source software, alternate Operating Systems, alternate social networks, alternate search engines, alternate chat protocols... even when the barriers are low they just don't give a damn. I honestly think most people would choose to join the Borg out of sheer convenience. It's futile to think this won't happen with AI. | |
| ▲ | shevy-java 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | IMO, AI will have the same problems no matter which area or country uses it to dominate over others. |
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| ▲ | TeMPOraL 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Big corporations can't do shit about open-weight models that already exist, because those are... just bags of floats. Once released, there is no unreleasing them. The Internet never forgets. Download the files as they come out if you're worried, but there's no way to roll LLMs back beyond what we have in open-weight models right now. It's a ratchet. | |
| ▲ | LogicFailsMe 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Big entertainment has been trying to restrict the distribution of movies online since that became possible, how's that going for them? | | |
| ▲ | ThrowawayR2 13 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The long term trend seems to be in their favor as governments want to include more traceability and ability to shut down sites into the Internet for their own reasons which will help the entertainment industry as a byproduct. Plus they can use LLMs just as much as anyone else in their quest to build better roadblocks. | |
| ▲ | wpietri 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Pretty well, honestly. Somebody with both technical knowledge and familiarity with a particular subculture can get access to entertainment videos with some work. But they've managed to keep piracy economically negligible. Basically everybody uses streaming services, 90% of US households pay for at least 1, and the average household pays for 4. [1] Brand was wrong. Information doesn't want to be free, just cheap. [1] https://variety.com/2026/tv/news/how-much-us-households-spen... | | |
| ▲ | 998244353 13 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | You can watch a lot of TV series online on some random pirate sites by simply googling "show x free online". It doesn't even require the relatively simple technical knowledge of using a BitTorrent client. | |
| ▲ | Marha01 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | This is only the case because streaming services today are so cheap and convenient. Jack up the price, or decrease the convenience, and see people sail the high seas en masse again.. | | |
| ▲ | LogicFailsMe 15 hours ago | parent [-] | | Indeed, the origin stories of these streaming services are deeply intertwined with combating piracy if you go back 20+ years. And I agree, if they outlaw open weight models, then only outlaws will have open weight models. But good luck finding and prosecuting the outlaws beyond a few whales. |
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| ▲ | mitxela 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Quite well. Lots of people in jail and it's quite obscure how to download movies as a casual. |
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| ▲ | SuperV1234 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | We have open-source models, and they're getting better and better. | | |
| ▲ | smitty1e 17 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | But, rather that a wide Edenic expanse of communication, we seem headed toward walled gardens with gatekeepers and a need to pay money for all the usual reasons. This seems both inevitable, and an occasion to tout the https://www.fsf.org | | |
| ▲ | jasonvorhe 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | Eh? Where exactly is that a reality though? I just spent like 20$ last week on various Chinese frontier models using openrouter and ppq building like 10 different projects that would've cost way more than double or quadruple per token at the big 3 if I didn't have those alternative options. Hell, for small tasks I even fell back to a local 27b Qwen model. | | |
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| ▲ | janice1999 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | ... if you can afford the ever increasing cost of hardware, a rise directly caused by the same AI companies. | | |
| ▲ | Marha01 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | I don't think it will be ever-increasing. It might last a long time, but sooner or later supply will increase to meet the demand (or the demand will drop, or both) and hardware will be cheap again. |
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| ▲ | nycdotnet 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | for now. | | |
| ▲ | TeMPOraL 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | They will literally never get worse. It's a one-way street. | | |
| ▲ | nycdotnet 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | I agree. The question is if they will remain legal. | | |
| ▲ | kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | The law doesn't prevent someone from doing or using something. It punishes them for doing or using something (if caught), but never prevents. If laws had the power to prevent, Chicago would be some sort of utopia. | | |
| ▲ | wpietri 16 hours ago | parent [-] | | Chicago is pretty great, bub. This year I opened a pinball museum here, so I can testify that it's a fine place to run a business. Some friends just came from the Bay Area for a week and had a lovely time. If only for your mental health, you should step out of your media bubble now and again |
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| ▲ | leoc 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It also seems pretty reasonable to worry that Oracle isn't banning LLM code contributions to OpenJDK https://www.theregister.com/ai-and-ml/2026/08/03/as-larry-el... ( HN discussion at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49213754 ) purely on quality grounds. If things carry on as at present, and it turns out that indeed it really was legally safe to copy and paste almost any code that came out of an LLM, then that's one thing; but if instead there's a rash of code copyright (and indeed patent) lawsuits a few years from now then the big and middling companies will simply pay each other settlements, while FOSS projects and their small-fry users will likely be in a much worse situation. | |
| ▲ | iloveoof 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | That’s like saying private libraries are bad for freedom to read, or Blockbuster was bad for freedom to view movies |
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| ▲ | rpdillon 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > If you want to gatekeep or only create stuff to boost your own ego or portfolio, then AI might be an issue, if you actually want to build stuff, AI is godsend. Exactly this. I've been very confused by the free software advocates that seemed to hate AI until I realized their reasons for releasing software under an open source license were very different than what I assumed they were. |
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| ▲ | wiz21c 18 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I release my code as free software for two reasons: 1. The credits for my code are protected (with the GPL you have to tell where your code originates from). That's the ego part. It's important to me because I'm not paid for my software. So credits are an important reward. 2. I want people to think twice about reusing my code. I use the GPL license because I think sharing software is the ultimate goal. So I force people to share my software by using the GPL. That may sound "extreme" (that's the whole open source vs free software debate) but, not being a full time politician, I can't change laws to push society in the direction I want. At my level, that "push" is the GPL choice. Maybe it's not noble enough, maybe it's cowardice, but it's my way (compare that with those who simply don't care). AI severely weakens both of these. And for people like me, this forces us to reconsider our position. For my part, I accept the legal point of view that A.I. doesn't steal code, and just reproduces the ideas in the code. So, as far as ideas can flow in society, I'm OK with that (that's the principle behind copyright laws). If AI has its way, one day one will not need to write software, we'll just ask the AI. In that case, software will be dead and free software will die with it too. By then I'll do my "local politics" another way and follow the next RMS. | | |
| ▲ | jcelerier 17 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > The credits for my code are protected (with the GPL you have to tell where your code originates from) But that's literally anathema to the spirit of GPL. Copyleft exists only as a reaction to copyright which is sadly ingrained in legal systems, but the original thought about free software, at the time of GPL inception, is that in an ideal world, copyright shouldn't exist for software ; it's leveraged by GPL only to protect against abuse of copyright holders that could close open code, which is thus made impossible "legally" with the GPL. AI makes this distinction fal into "practically" as pretty much anything is "open" for individual use now (e.g the only use that matters). https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/fsfs/rms-essays.pdf | | |
| ▲ | bonzini 17 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Attribution and copyright are separate. Who says that, even if copyright didn't exist for software, attribution also wouldn't? If anything, the remark that I have to make to the parent is that in principle attribution is also required by non-copyleft licenses. However, I doubt it's respected for the hundreds of crates or npm modules in a typical Rust or JavaScript project... | |
| ▲ | mitxela 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Even the true copyright abolitionists (who want companies like Oracle to be able to fork their software and make a billion dollars releasing the binaries) still use MIT license which requires attribution. | | |
| ▲ | ndriscoll 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'm a copyright abolitionist, but I think Oracle should be required to release the source code with their binaries as a basic consumer protection. I also don't care about attribution. |
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| ▲ | za_creature 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The spirit of free software is about learning from others and having control of your hardware. Given the supposed commoditization of intelligence and recent memory prices, I'd say LLMs are literally anathema to the spirit of the GPL. | | |
| ▲ | intrasight 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | I don't think "you own your own hardware" will be true for long. Spirits don't get much legal protection. | | |
| ▲ | mitxela 16 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | If LLMs are as good at RE as everyone says, we will own our hardware again. | | |
| ▲ | intrasight 16 hours ago | parent [-] | | You'd have to build your own fab from ground up - meaning no ASML. Is not going to happen. | | |
| ▲ | mitxela 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | You don't have to own the entire pipeline to own enough of it. People run Linux and say they own their OS. |
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| ▲ | za_creature 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | They used to. We used to call those spirits "rights". |
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| ▲ | za_creature 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > A.I. doesn't steal code, and just reproduces the ideas in the code Then they don't need to train on github, no? Why not release a new model trained from Knuth's Art of Programming, Cormen's Introduction to Algorithms and the C specification. Feel free to throw in any other published literature related to STEM, but stick to the code samples from the books. I'm certain it'll be able to change the color of a CSS button, right? | | |
| ▲ | kolinko 17 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | What you said doesn't disagree with what the parent said. LLM can be trained on a code and at the same time reproduce the core ideas. That's what LLMs do after all - they convert the training data into their own internal models and representations, and then reproduce the ideas. Sure, some things/patterns, that were repeated multiple times, LLMs will tend to repeat verbatim as well, but that's not that big of a problem. As a person who invented a few algorithms on my own I absolutely love LLMs and I don't mind them being trained on my work, but yeah - I've been way less likely to publish open source over the last year. In the past, if some of my stuff got traction, the credit was close to automatic (early adopters credited or at least knew where they got it from). Nowadays, LLMs will train on these ideas, rewrite them, and give no credit. Still, I prefer this to having no LLMs at all. > but stick to the code samples from the books.
> I'm certain it'll be able to change the color of a CSS button, right? A good enough LLM will just decompile a browser, figure out CSS spec from it, and yes - figure out how to change the color of a CSS button from first principles. There is no point to do this with CSS, but with other things it's now easier to just dig through sorces or direct bytecode than to bother checking docs. | | |
| ▲ | za_creature 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | Same argument, just one level down. Can it decompile a browser using a specification of x86 and the source code of the compiler? e.g. without training on the source code and binaries of all software it was able to rip from the internet? |
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| ▲ | ben_w 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Then they don't need to train on github, no? Why not release a new model trained from Knuth's Art of Programming, Cormen's Introduction to Algorithms and the C specification. Because they're really really stupid and only make up for this by being really really stupid really really fast. This has been ruled, by actual courts, to not be "stealing" (not even in the "you wouldn't steal a car, piracy is theft" sense that film and music studios campaigned on). The last I heard was the "Chinchilla" scaling law was ~20 training tokens per parameter. Humans are, if you'll excuse a very hand-waving Fermi estimate, 100,000 times more data-efficient at learning stuff (it's really hard to tell given we're visual creatures that happen to speak, while LLMs are text-based things that happen to see). | | | |
| ▲ | Pannoniae 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | To be fair, you also don't restrict yourself to those texts either. You read news, you use other programs, you look at websites and so on. And while the norms vary per field, things aren't really reinvented from scratch. The standard FPS controls aren't reinvented for every shooter game. The standard website layouts aren't reinvented for every website. The standard command line behaviour isn't reinvented for every CLI program and so on. | | |
| ▲ | za_creature 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | Those were all included in "published literature relating to STEM". Just skip the source code. Consider it an easier challenge than reinventing relativity from 19th century physics. | | |
| ▲ | Pannoniae 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | But software isn't like traditional academia. It might have grown from it but most advances aren't really published in the traditional sense, you've got blogposts, presentations and source code instead. This would be like teaching cooking without looking at any recipes, just from physics and first principles. Or learning music without looking at the sheet music / listening to any existing songs, just generic musical theory and chords. I don't think humans can do it "zero-shot" either... | | |
| ▲ | za_creature 16 hours ago | parent [-] | | > advances aren't really published https://dl.acm.org/ | | |
| ▲ | Pannoniae 16 hours ago | parent [-] | | I don't see how this disproves my point. There's a vast divide between "theoretical" and "applied" software engineering. You don't usually see Google engineers publish their search optimisations in journals. And similarly, you don't see university professors making commercial libraries from their articles' ideas. This isn't the case in every field but in software, it very much is. And this implies that training on the "theoretical" side of things doesn't give you much insight on the "practical" side. Stuff like cyclomatic complexity, UML diagrams and all that stuff might be well-represented in literature but way less so in real software, so training on the literature will produce completely different software than training on production software code. | | |
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| ▲ | ThrowawayR2 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > "Why not release a new model trained from Knuth's Art of Programming, Cormen's Introduction to Algorithms and the C specification." What makes you think that wouldn't work? I think a lot of the hype around AI is vastly overblown but that seems to be well within the scope of what they can be expanded to do in the not too distant future. AlphaGo was trained through self-play reinforcement learning IIRC and I don't really see a reason that some sort of equivalent couldn't be done for generating code starting with textbooks and access to a Linux CLI as a reference. It would be an interesting experiment at least. | |
| ▲ | jazzypants 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I'm sorry, but what are you trying to say here? There are books that teach you how to change the color of a CSS button... |
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| ▲ | rpdillon 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | You say that sharing the software is the ultimate goal, but you're using that argument to justify not sharing your software. That's hard for me to understand. I also don't think that just because you have to ask AI to write the software, free software will die. Because people don't understand their own requirements, I don't think we're going to get to a place where AI can one-shot, even moderately complex software, and so creating software will continue to be some effort. I fully expect that the norm will become that we give away free software and expect other people to pick it up and tune it to their own needs with their AI. But that doesn't mean that free software is dead. It means it evolves. | | |
| ▲ | kolinko 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | What do you consider "moderately complex software"? | | |
| ▲ | rpdillon 16 hours ago | parent [-] | | Something where the person that is going to be using it can't easily define the full set of requirements in one go because they're going to need to interact with it first, and subsequent requirements will emerge after use. The limitation in this case will not be the AI's ability to implement what was requested. It will be the human's ability to articulate what success looks like. |
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| ▲ | za_creature 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | While Stallman may have been originally upset about his printer, the primary motivation behind open source software is: Nothing up my sleeve. This of course requires audit and that requires that the code is written for human consumption, otherwise nobody will bother. Sure you can vibe a printer driver but how sure are you that your LLM didn't include a backdoor in the millions line of slop? | | |
| ▲ | williamcotton 18 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | How sure are you that any printer driver didn’t include a backdoor? What’s the difference between the LLM code with the backdoor and the human code with the backdoor? | | |
| ▲ | za_creature 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | The ability to audit the code. If not that, the ability to trust the reputation of the author which creates an incentive not to willingly insert a backdoor. Yes, `npm install` was always bullshit because most people didn't bother to check, which is exactly why it was exploited multiple times, which created a conversation about "supply chain security". If you want to argue that "npm changed the world" then you are correct. It did not change the world for the better though. | | |
| ▲ | williamcotton 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | Why is LLM code always harder to audit? So LLMs might decide to add backdoors without prompting? | | |
| ▲ | za_creature 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'm less worried about what LLMs decide and more about what their system prompts tell them to do. |
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| ▲ | rpdillon 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Trusting software produced by others is not a new problem; I consider AI to be a tool, and so my techniques for establishing trust are the same as they have always been. I look at the person wielding the tool. | | |
| ▲ | ben_w 17 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > I look at the person wielding the tool. I look at the whole chain of influence behind them, and it's quite a lot more upsetting than the smiling face I interact with. The whole "AI is a Lovecraftian tentacle monster wearing a smiley face" thing applies to simple bureaucracies (replace Lovecraft with Kafka), to corporations (replace Lovecraft with IDK, most anarchists?), and governments (Orwell?) Tools made by tools made by tools, along more steps than most people know even when their job is one of them. Somewhere there's a kid working a dangerous mine without the right safety equipment, elsewhere there's a sweatshop, another place a "reeducation camp". But who do I see? A cashier, mostly. Someone whose job involves smiling to customers even when we're idiots. | | |
| ▲ | rpdillon 16 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. I put trust in individual people, not organizations. You seem to be making a point about supply chains, but I'm not sure how it relates to the point about trust. You seem to be making a different point about some kind of exploitation. | | |
| ▲ | ben_w 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | Almost everything I interact with was made by an organisation (or a disorganisation), not by an individual. Say I download an app. Who made it? The programmer? Their PM? Apple's store requirements? The US government, for whom there was a special tickbox I had to agree to last time I uploaded an app? Trust is for the mechanic, driver, builder; but for 90% of my interactions I have to trust my government set good rules and other people followed them. I can't do this with AI, neither good rules nor them being followed, but I also can't do it when the OS company and app devs are foreign, as they generally are to me now. |
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| ▲ | za_creature 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Then you best hope that person has read https://people.cs.umass.edu/~emery/classes/cmpsci691st/readi... |
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| ▲ | mitxela 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | That's a motivation for source available. You can have commercial copyrighted software that's NUMS. You can deliver the customer source code (slightly customized for traitor-telling of course) and tell them to do what they want but never share it. grsecurity even managed this with GPL software! |
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| ▲ | intended 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Drive by code dumps from people who have "democratized Natural Language code" which pushes all the work of verifying whether it works on the few active maintainers is hell. Any collective group with open contribution will end up hating it. Why is this a surprise? | |
| ▲ | matsemann 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Exactly not this. Way to straw man all counter arguments before they even got any. | | |
| ▲ | rpdillon 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | I haven't heard any coherent arguments other than getting credit and building a portfolio. Are there others? | | |
| ▲ | matsemann 16 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I'd wager 99 % of the OSS the world runs on is people that never have cared about credit or building a portfolio. What they do want, however, is to not have to spend time on the thousands of AI generated pull requests and bug reports. | | |
| ▲ | rpdillon 16 hours ago | parent [-] | | Completely agree that low-value pull requests and bug reports are a problem, but that's not a problem with AI. That's a problem with people using GitHub and trying to do collaborative development in an ungated environment. Free software and open source are orthogonal to collaborative development, as we see with projects like SQLite, or AOSP, or Java, each of which impose their own gates for contribution, separate from the ability to generate code. | | |
| ▲ | matsemann 16 hours ago | parent [-] | | Sorry, but this seems like just moving the goalpost. | | |
| ▲ | rpdillon 15 hours ago | parent [-] | | I said people wanted credit more often than I had expected. You said "Way to straw man all counter arguments before they even got any." The current point you're making is (I think) that OSS devs don't want credit, they want to be free of spam. I, for example, host my free software on fossil and don't accept contributions at all. It's not that I don't want them, it's that I don't want the noise, so I feel like that's a valid way to distribute open source. But when I raise that, you're saying I'm moving the goalpost. I think the goalpost is in the same exact location as it has been for the entire discussion: open source authors that don't care about getting credit and want to distribute their free software can do so without any worry about AI. If your underlying point is that AI has lowered the barrier to entry for code submissions, making previously-viable approaches to collaborative development infeasible, that's completely fair, I just wasn't treating that as fundamental to open source development in the same way you were. |
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| ▲ | watwut 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Neither of your guesses is reality based. Open source contributors get no credit in general. To the point that even commenters on HN dont seem to know who they, in general are. That being said there is absolutely nothing wrong with building a portfolio. It is 100% valid motivation. The only issue with that theory is that no one cares about your open source contributions. Not employers, not peers, no one. What I do find fascinating tho is that fans of the most selfish egoistical companies and tech groups ... insinuate artists, open source programmers, writers or anyone else is selfish or otherwise disapponting if any part of their work involve actual human motivation. | | |
| ▲ | rpdillon 16 hours ago | parent [-] | | I wouldn't say that wanting to contribute to a shared commons of cool stuff isn't a human motivation. And I'm not deriding those that build open source to boost their own reputation. I'm just much less interested in their work than the work of folks that are motivated by improving the commons (even if they get no credit). | | |
| ▲ | watwut 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | You are imagining people in your head. Most serious open source contributions are paid for. Per FSF survey overwhelmingly so. Because, they are a lot of work. They are not hobbies or kitchen soup two hours a week effort. These require a lot of sustained effort and time, that would either takes time from your paid job, or would make you effectively work 60 hours a week which means you have no other life. End result is that these are paid positions, so. |
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| ▲ | sriram_malhar 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Why do we need more? Why is that not a big enough reason. If a modern-day Beethoven were told that his work will be slurped in by a machine and he will remain unknown to the world, would it be acceptable to him? To you? | | |
| ▲ | rpdillon 16 hours ago | parent [-] | | Context: I was accused of raising a strawman argument. I was explaining that I don't think it's a strawman, and your comment suggests you agree. It's a perfectly good reason, but I lament the loss of people who are doing open source just to get credit much less than I would lament the loss of people doing open source because they wanted to contribute to a shared commons. Fame only has utility so long as it gets you paid. If you can get paid without being famous, that's probably a win. I'm not very concerned about unrecognized genius: they are all around us, and the usual rule is that we've never heard of them. I think the that's just fine. |
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| ▲ | killerstorm 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I'd say this social contract which got "broken" never existed in the first place. Even before AI we heard lots of complaints like "I made a popular open source library which is now used by corps with trillion-dollar market cap and I don't get anything out of it; halp". There was always some kind of a conflict, now the nature of the conflict just changed |
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| ▲ | mitxela 16 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | If they made it MIT, they explicitly disavowed the GPL social contract. | |
| ▲ | Forgeties79 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | If by “nature“ you mean the scale, which has expanded by orders of magnitude and functionally changes the problem. |
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| ▲ | mosura 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > If you want to gatekeep or only create stuff to boost your own ego or portfolio, then AI might be an issue One of the major cultural problems in open source software is it got dominated by people doing it purely for self promotion. Then it becomes an interview question, then all the incentives are warped on the promise of “get PRs merged, get paid big money”. But yes, you are right. |
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| ▲ | ssl232 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Isn’t the problem though that AI companies charge money for their models trained on open source and copyleft projects? |
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| ▲ | TeMPOraL 18 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It's not a real problem. It's one of the most honest business models currently employed by tech companies - simple exchange of money for value. Training wasn't free and only few players on the planet had enough capital to perform it. Serving isn't free, it costs electricity (and maintenance). The companies that trained the models, and companies that serve inference, have all created real value at their own expense, and they're (for now) charging very little for it. The value users get from inference - that no one is even capturing right now, it's literally left on the table and goes 100% to the users. Contrast that with most other businesses - tech or otherwise - where there's always strings and trickery attached to any transaction. | | |
| ▲ | za_creature 18 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | While I agree with you regarding shady business practices, you're very conveniently skipping over the fact that open source licenses _REQUIRE_ attribution. | | |
| ▲ | andsoitis 18 hours ago | parent [-] | | > While I agree with you regarding shady business practices, you're very conveniently skipping over the fact that open source licenses _REQUIRE_ attribution. When you use the code as is or create a derivative work. The knowledge embodied by the code and encapsulated in an LLM doesn't strike me as needing to give attribution because the code the LLM would product doesn't match any particular open source code base. At least that's my thinking. I'd be curious to see an example where you think attribution is necessary and how you would actually do it given an output from an LLM. | | |
| ▲ | za_creature 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | I answered here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49775387 I will continue to hold that position until such a time that we get a better answer than: > we cannot rule out that de-identified data derived from their usage of our products helped improve our models | | |
| ▲ | andsoitis 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | I hear you, but I think you might miss my point, which is while LLMs are clearly trained on copyrighted material, what they produce (their output) is NOT a copy of a specific code snippet they were trained on in a way that you would say "that's a copy from this code base". | | |
| ▲ | za_creature 16 hours ago | parent [-] | | Open source also requires attribution for derivative works [1], not just verbatim copies. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Derivative_work&o... | | |
| ▲ | andsoitis 15 hours ago | parent [-] | | Thanks for that link to the definition and requirements for something to be considered a derivative work. I think my interpretation, based on your link, holds: unless the LLM output (transformation) substantially bears the original source code author's creation and personality, there is nothing to give attribution to. |
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| ▲ | 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | yubblegum 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | (Your argument reminded me of the oil industry and the (original argument for the) economic relationship between "Big Oil" and resource rich nations.) > strings and trickery One could argue that at this initial stage, just as with surveillance capitalism and services like "free email", the general public is being treated like the natives who sell their land for a few trinkets. Once we are passed this stage and just like other surveillance tech our social and economical life becomes effectively dependent on these services, we can review if we have not sold our future for some (arguably dubious) "value". Go back to early '00s. How did you "value" the "transaction" of handing over the handling of your personal electronic correspondences to a corporate entity that may or may not be an extension of the security state? | | |
| ▲ | TeMPOraL 13 hours ago | parent [-] | | I don't disagree. Fortunately, for as long as open-weight models continue to track SOTA with a few months lag, we lose at most those few months if big providers decide to stop playing nice with the people. | | |
| ▲ | yubblegum 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | Aren't you paying attention to all the news? They have announced that this will be regulated. A technology that everyone is told "can kill us all" is going to be treated like WMDs. Enjoy those open source models while they are still legal. |
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| ▲ | acomjean 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | So the material trained on has no value, but all other costs associate with ai should be captured by business? I mean we coders released it, and it’s hard to compensate everyone, but the world would be better if some open source projects got funded. They don’t even get a source footnote. Does anyone trust Ai companies not to eventually spy on you and feed you ads? It’s not like we haven’t seen this playbook before. | | |
| ▲ | za_creature 17 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | And if I share with you my story, would you share your dollar with me? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFZP8zQ5kzk | |
| ▲ | TeMPOraL 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I don't trust any company, AI or otherwise. Business is business, companies are only nice while margins are good. I'm commenting on how things are now, not how they may turn out at some point in the future. This is in response to complains that are also mostly about now, not about hypothetical. WRT LLMs in particular, open-weight models offset the risk a lot. As long as they track SOTA by couple months, that's the most we lose in capability should the commercial vendors start to enshittify their inference services. |
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| ▲ | tescreal 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | They're also quite particular on keeping weights private and preventing distillation (or really, any open weight models). | | |
| ▲ | TeMPOraL 18 hours ago | parent [-] | | Them complaining about distillation is 100% hypocritical, but also understandable; they found a goose laying golden eggs, but didn't expect it to be so easy to clone through distillation. | | |
| ▲ | mitxela 16 hours ago | parent [-] | | It's just ordinary business. You always have to get every benefit you can and deny everything you can to your competitors. The basic premise of free market economics is that when everyone does this, it will even out. OpenAI doing everything they can to stop DeepSeek, together with DeepSeek doing everything they can to stop OpenAI stopping them, is expected market behaviour. David Graeber wrote about this as his "goon" category of Bullshit Job. |
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| ▲ | bayindirh 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > ... it is basically turning any software into Free Software. And the opposite is true, as well. Many groups with deep pockets are rewriting Free Software packages with permissive licenses to kill the GPL counterparts, so the companies can sell closed source software built on the effort of thousands. So it's not all pink fluffy unicorns dancing on rainbows. |
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| ▲ | warkdarrior 13 hours ago | parent [-] | | How does competitor softwaret kill GPL packages? | | |
| ▲ | bayindirh 12 hours ago | parent [-] | | You implement something essential in a different programming language, tout that it's better than its GPL counterpart, and lobby for a change. For me, the biggest example is uutils. Started as a "homework", then turned into a "hobby project", then turned into a complete Rust rewrite of the GNU Coreutils. It even once touted they were planning to replace all util-linux as well. When you look into uutil org, it's a systemd-like project with tons of sub-projects. For the lobby part, the same project touts "Debian might switch, soon". Debian-developers got angry, created a pull request to remove that line from the site, it just got denied, and the maintainer lashed out "This is my site, this is my project, don't bug me". The relevant thread starts at [0]. This is not always with AI, but companies can use AI to license-wash something with a "reverse engineer this, and reimplement it in X" type of prompts. Chardet has been relicensed in a hostile manner as well [1] [2]. [0]: https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2026/06/msg00315.html [1]: https://github.com/chardet/chardet/issues/327 [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47259177 |
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| ▲ | ciupicri 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Users can finally modify software themselves Right... I bet Microsoft wouldn't mind at all if I modify Windows or Office. |
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| ▲ | Pannoniae 18 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It doesn't matter if they mind or not, the question is whether they can feasibly stop you. So far, the answer seems to be "not really". | | |
| ▲ | layer8 17 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It’s become pretty difficult in some areas due to cryptographic signatures that are either bound to the hardware or to online services. Apple has feasibly stopped any modifications of iOS and their apps, for all practical purposes. These kinds of ecosystems will only continue to expand and to displace more open ones. We’re already at the point where arguably the most performant non-server hardware (Macs with the latest SoCs) is bound to a proprietary OS. Efforts like Asahi can easily be shut down by Apple with newer hardware. LLMs are no help against proper cryptographic lockdown. | | |
| ▲ | Pannoniae 17 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That's right, but other closed systems are kind of withering away (the two major consoles - Xbox and Playstation - are dying in favour of PC gaming). We're at an inflection point because hardware progress has slowed down and while the mobile duopoly does benefit from network effects, in the long run those are outweighed by missteps by the incumbents. See how Windows has been a monopoly on the PC market for ages, then they've dropped the ball, Linux has grown then Microsoft got their shit together somewhat in order to catch up. I don't think open / general-purpose computing is doomed in the future or anything like that, as long as there is demand for it, someone will supply it. And LLMs can also help you design your own hardware in the worst case:) | | |
| ▲ | layer8 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | > the two major consoles - Xbox and Playstation - are dying in favour of PC gaming I’m pretty sure that it’s in favor of mobile gaming. The PC market is shrinking. > And LLMs can also help you design your own hardware in the worst case:) But not in manufacturing it. You’ll generally be even more disadvantaged in terms of hardware performance than open-weight models are compared to the proprietary frontier models. | | |
| ▲ | Pannoniae 16 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | >The PC market is shrinking. You have very good points but I'd say this is somewhat of a fallacy. If you look at graphs for phone shipments and PC shipments, they're both somewhat declining between 2015-2025 (I'm focusing on this time period to exclude the current temporary component shortages). However, this doesn't mean they're becoming less popular in either usage or platform spending like buying apps, games and subscriptions. How can this circle be squared you might ask? Just about everyone has a phone or a laptop today. They're typically not first-time buyers, they'll be replacing their systems. Even if the number of devices shipped are decreasing today, doesn't mean the market itself has shrunk. Even if for some reason, all laptops became e-waste from next year January 1st, you'd see several hundred million sales next year for the replacement device, because the market is there. For those consoles, that's not the case. (src: https://www.gamesindustry.biz/analyst-game-console-shipments...)
Look at how Switch is the majority of shipments most of the time, and there are years where traditional consoles sell only a few million copies. Contrast that to the personal computer or the phone market where the numbers are in the tens of millions or hundreds each year. It's just not comparable. >But not in manufacturing it. LLMs won't build you a frontier fab that's for sure, but the point is that you don't necessarily need the latest'n'greatest with diminishing returns. An RTX 5090 is like ten times faster than a GTX 980 released 12 years ago. It doesn't run games which are ten times better. Similarly, something like the Galaxy S26 is ~7 times faster than an S6 around that time. Is it seven times better to use? Of course not :P So the conclusion is that the performance the architecture you need to reach isn't an ever-racing frontier, you can make a new product (and in this hypothetical case, a product focused on openness) without having SOTA performance. For a case of an "alternate" product like this, just see the Switch - much slower than "normal" consoles, good form factor, portable, and fairly cheap to produce. No one cares that it doesn't do 4K when undocked. | | |
| ▲ | layer8 13 hours ago | parent [-] | | Macs are gaining on PCs in laptop/desktop market share. Only a small minority of those who didn’t already use PCs before are newly getting into PCs with Windows or Linux. This was different when Windows was still the respectable default, but the times are changing. Most of the PC market is business/office laptops/desktops, not personal home machines, and Macs are gaining both in personal and business use. The Switch is popular despite its lowish performance, because of its ergonomics and ease of use, which is correlated with it being a walled-garden product, just like that’s the case for smartphones. |
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| ▲ | Forgeties79 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | eh to a degree. It leveled off at about 50% in 2018-2020 or so. And it’s not reasonable to assume that every person doing mobile gaming would have otherwise gamed on consoles/PCs, so how much of that is growth in “the gamer” population matters a lot. Part of the draw mobile gaming is it’s very accessible. Usually simple controls and everyone already has the hardware in their pocket. So the total population went up, of which a lot was claimed by Mobile. Now I’m very curious to look into this more in depth as I’m doing a fair bit of speculating. If I find any good info I’ll update this | | |
| ▲ | Pannoniae 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | Cheers, enjoy the rabbithole:) A small pointer, it's hard to do interpret statistics because most people play on multiple platforms. Roughly 75% of gamers play on mobile, 45% on PC and 40% on console. I'm not 100% sure about the numbers, just off the top of my head about looking at market research, updated numbers welcome |
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| ▲ | mitxela 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I don't think Office only runs on attested hardware. I'm not sure about Office 365, but the last office you could actually run on your own computer had no protection from modification and in fact, we modified it very extensively. | | |
| ▲ | layer8 16 hours ago | parent [-] | | Sure, I was talking about the general trajectory, and that there are effective ways to prevent modification that vendors will put to use. Meaning that LLMs are not a panacea. |
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| ▲ | ciupicri 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Among the most important additions in the GNU General Public License version 3, in 2007, was to prohibit taking a GPLv3-covered program and distributing it under tivoization, because it denies users the freedom, in practice, to modify the program and then use the modified version. [1] If I'm not mistaking Apple and other companies have avoided GPLv3 like the plague. And Microsoft won't sign your EFI boot loader if it's under a GPLv3 license. [1]: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/tivoization.en.html |
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| ▲ | usewik 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Good point. The other corollary is: why would you want to, if you can solve your problem by more easily finding and reusing existing building blocks with a bit of glue code. | |
| ▲ | gspr 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | They can just change their EULA to make the act akin to old fashioned piracy. The free software movement eschews such instruments by definition, so we're fucked. | | |
| ▲ | Pannoniae 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | I mean, they can write anything in their EULA, I'm talking about enforcement. Sure, most free software advocates are squeamish about good old fashioned piracy today but I don't think that's an immutable fact of life. The best anyone can do is send takedowns to GitHub / other websites hosting the code or downloads but it's trivial to upload them to random russian code forges or whatever. |
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| ▲ | usewik 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | While humorous and technically true, I believe this misses the point of the comment. It became a lot easier to build your own version of systems to satisfy one's own unique mix of requirements while not worrying so much about everyone else's. The SaaSocalypse is mainly caused by this. Open source software benefits from this trend because it became easier to integrate more open building blocks faster. |
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| ▲ | bagelcollie 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > …since the level of work to modify a work to fit your project was pretty close to just doing it from scratch anyway. With AI everybody can toy around with image generators and get what they want. > Creation is now easy and commodified. > If you want to gatekeep or only create stuff to boost your own ego or portfolio, then AI might be an issue, if you actually want to build stuff, AI is godsend. Reading these made me realized how much people WANT to do something without having to involve with the process of making it.
The last quote is implying that the reason for having issues with AI is gatekeeping or ego, while the actual reason is creators don’t want to create stuff for absolutely nothing. That aside, one thing relatively rare in discussions about AI-facilitated creations is that while AI enables creation without skills, it also takes the need for collaboration away resulting in less creativity. You used to need a small team for a project, and every discussion would have opinions from team members with diversity in expertise and background which often sparks something novel. OR if you prefer working solo, you’d need to learn various skills to cover all fronts of the project. At one point, you possess a niche set of skills that could lead to innovation. AI takes those opportunities for something new away and replaces them with something else that already existed on the internet. Of course, not everything needs fundamental understanding, especially in the world of optimization and speed, but right now the internet is swarmed by “stuff” that everyone built using the same lego bricks and it’s become less and less interesting. |
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| ▲ | JKCalhoun 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I try to keep an open mind to both sides of the issue, but I confess that I, personally, am finding AI liberating for both software development (and my electronics hobby). Regarding software, I am clearly in the camp of developers for whom the coding is the necessary evil to get the tool/product that I had in my mind before I began. Obviously, LLMs benefit here. As an example, lately I am diving into screen-printing and there are little tools that I want for myself—the coding to implement those looked to me like a series of hurdles that I was not going to enjoy. "Hey, Gemini, I want an optical half-toning algorithm that takes these params, outputs this…" "Python is a pain, can you rewrite it in Javascript, single-page HTML?" "A splitter for the preview, a way to toggle between 1x and Fit-To-View." A day or two later and I'm burning screens using the web front-end. And on to another tool… https://engineersneedart.com/halftone/ |
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| ▲ | whizzter 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The laws aren't 100% settled, the latest reveals of MS execs in the New York Times lawsuit (or was it the New Yorker?) that came up here the other day was quite damning. Right now, only that lawsuit seriously challanges big-AI, but _if_ they succeed then everyone who's had something ingested has a precedent to lean on for a lawsuit against the big-AI corps (and potentially by extension their users). So more worryingly for free software is that snippets that has found their way via LLM models into openly licensed projects, this could be commercial "shared source" projects that have gotten ingested or even internal tools since the AI corporations trains their models on your prompts, projects and even git histories. |
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| ▲ | SuperV1234 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Completely agreed. Insane how everyone's free and open-source ideals seem to disappear when they feel personally attacked or scared by a new technology. |
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| ▲ | pimeys 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Yes. And we should all form small social LLM servers in our neighborhoods to run Deepseek and avoid paying for American corporations. I fully agree with you. |
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| ▲ | Marha01 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Is a social contract being broken? Yeah, kind of, but the problems that that contract existed to solve are no longer a thing. Creation is now easy and commodified. Exactly. The reason why we have rules and laws is because they make society better. Once the law or rule no longer makes society better, it should be repealed or ignored (or perhaps new, updated rules put in its place). If, in the future, AI can easily create any digital content on par with the best human creators (and I am not talking just about software), then IP laws should be mostly repealed, since information has truly become free. I can imagine some justified, temporary IP restrictions even in such future (altrough enforcement will be very problematic), but current extensive IP laws will not survive. We are not there yet, but we might get there sooner than many people think... |
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| ▲ | hamdingers 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > the problems that that contract existed to solve are no longer a thing. And haven't been for a while. What good is copyright when the works can be copied at zero cost by anyone? People like this author have forgotten copyleft is a workaround for copyright and not an end unto itself. |
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| ▲ | tikotus 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I get kicks out of developing novel solutions to unsolved problems. I might be wrong, but I like to think it's the kind of stuf LLMs are not yet great at. Call me selfish, but I now have absolutely zero interest in sharing my findings with the world because of LLMs, since once I do, LLM companies can start selling my work. LLMs evened the battlefield for all that has been developed so far, but what about future discoveries? I think it remains to be seen if LLMs can come up with these novel solutions rendering innovators useless. If not, then LLMs might be crippled by software becoming more closed in the future. |
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| ▲ | nayroclade 17 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Companies could take your discoveries and sell things based on your work before LLMs ever existed. What's changed? | | |
| ▲ | sriram_malhar 17 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | There was a level of patent/copyright protection, there was a level of awareness of stealing, a company could be taken to a court of law. A writer of a PhD thesis could show that someone lifted huge parts of a dissertation without attribution. All that is gone. | | | |
| ▲ | tikotus 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | They could, but I could always hope they wouldn't, and most of the time I wouldn't be disappointed. AI companies don't even have means to attribute to someone the solution they're selling. |
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| ▲ | usewik 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Effective use of frontier models involves "driving the build". They can't really do it themselves, human is still involved to tie break complicated tradeoffs and take on deployment, security, financial and other risks. The innovators are not becoming useless, they are offered a choice to 10x their output and speed and quality of execution. Execution still matters, it just became different. | | |
| ▲ | salawat 16 hours ago | parent [-] | | Not centauring for your AI or training dataset. Sorry. What the current AI industry comes down to is a tollbooth on " interesting" research work, where the people hosting the infra are just waiting for monetizable opportunities to float in to be scooped. The absolute same business model as Amazon Basics as applied to intellectual work. Let it rot, and the bubble pop from distrust. The people running this shit have absolutely no one's best interests in mind, and I'm not about to sacrifice my expertise to keep your ledgers looking promising. |
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| ▲ | sh3rl0ck 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Hard agree. It's easier than ever to build compatibility for more architectures and devices than ever before, to autonomously test it, and ensure UX rough edges can be rapidly iterated upon across platforms. |
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| ▲ | anon-3988 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Because of this, I think that the future will be worse than proprietary, it will be API based. We will no longer own any software, but instead must call an API via the internet. Even then, it could still be reversed I suppose. But distributing binaries simply does not make any sense whatsoever as people can just reverse engineer it on a weekend. |
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| ▲ | Pannoniae 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | In that case, wouldn't piracy shift to hacking the servers and exfiltrating the binaries/code? | | |
| ▲ | anon-3988 an hour ago | parent [-] | | Sure, but what are you going to do with such a binary? It is probably high distributed. For instance, i don’t think we are ever going to get any games that is not streamed.
At some point, the cost of reverse engineering a binary becomes way too cheap. Frankly speaking, assembly code might as well be source code today. |
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| ▲ | hbbio 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| There are both good and aspects of the AI "revolution". Yes, it's easier than ever to create free software. But wrote just yesterday on a related impact of AI agents on open source repos: https://medium.com/@hbbio/when-software-becomes-cheap-trust-... |
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| ▲ | amelius 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Do we want humans to evolve to think more, or think less? Maybe AI is the best thing for the free software world, but not the world as a whole. |
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| ▲ | usewik 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | Humans will evolve. Some will keep trying to think more. Many others won't. I'm not sure this is that different from previous disruptive tech in that regard. It could be that AI is the tool the world needs to solve problems the world governments have been deadlocked to solve in the past 50 years. | | |
| ▲ | amelius 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | But does it make sense to think when you're competing with a think-tank of hundreds of agents who all are more intelligent than you AND have way more stamina. I'd like to think too that the person who can sit quietly in a room and think has an evolutionary advantage over, say, an influencer on tiktok doing silly dances, but the reality seems to be more and more that this is wishful thinking. Nerds have made themselves irrelevant. |
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| ▲ | 192857-122-11 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Why is this gushing illogical propaganda at the top? There are free-software-leeches and free-software-developers. Yes, the leeches here have always looked down on the producers even before AI and stole what they could. |
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| ▲ | Forgeties79 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It’s so amazing for the free software world yet every month I see another major community or project shutter out of sheer frustration because they cannot handle the number of people dumping their garbage “improvements” and ideas that their LLM spat out in 30min. It’s not right that so many maintainers are being chastised for not wanting to comb through everyone’s bloated, rickety code. This extends beyond software. Nobody proofreads or otherwise edits what comes out. They dump it on the rest of us and demand that we thank them for their “effort.” It’s selfish behavior. |
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| ▲ | the_interloper 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| take other people's work and sell it back to them the future is now |
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| ▲ | archagon 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Who are you in the Free Software world to speak so confidently on behalf of the Free Software world? |
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| ▲ | shevy-java 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > AI is the best thing that ever happened to the Free Software world, it is basically turning any software into Free Software. I disagree. That claim makes no sense to me, but even ignoring this claim for the moment, you ignore the legal situation here. AI ultimately steal. If that can be proven in court, people and companies will be held responsible. > if you actually want to build stuff, AI is godsend. We are essentially living in the StarTrek future with Holodecks and replicators and people still find reason to complain. I don't see any argument you gave for this claim, so it seems to be a baseless claim. Besides, god does not exist and assuming AI comes only with benefits and no trade-offs, is a very naive take. |
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| ▲ | mitxela 16 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The legal situation has been resolved: AI training doesn't transfer copyright as long as the AI isn't actually reproducing a copyrighted work. You can still violate copyright in the process of acquiring the training data. This is not speculation, this is the real outcome of the lawsuits against the AI companies. | |
| ▲ | Marha01 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > You ignore the legal situation here. AI ultimately steal. If that can be proven in court, people and companies will be held responsible. Why should any fan on Free Software care about that? Information wants to be free. |
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| ▲ | spacedcowboy 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > If you want to gatekeep or only create stuff to boost your own ego or portfolio, then AI might be an issue, if you actually want to build stuff, AI is godsend Couldn’t agree more. If you want an example of what an AI can help a sole (ex-)engineer build in about 6 months, how about this… (For all the below “I” is short for “I used Claude code to”) - I (https://compile-xc.org) built a compiler for a language I call ‘xc’, similar to Objective-C but designed to be cross-platform and have less square brackets :). It can run on any of {Windows, Mac, Linux, Zynq} and produce code for any of {Windows, Mac, Linux, Zynq, WASM, iOS, Android, m68k, 6502}. It needs no host-platform tools to compile code, so for example I have a signed binary on my iPhone, written and signed entirely on Linux. The compiler currently produces code that is between 2x and 0.5x the speed of clang, which is pretty good for a nascent compiler I built (more accurately: am building) a (https://compile-xc.org/compiler/api/uxkit) cross-platform UI framework, so you can write code once, even Table-views, Outline-views, Collection-views, etc., etc and your application will bind to the platform’s native toolkit through a common programming API. The next step here is an “Interface Builder” like application I call RoCkS (for historical reasons), which lets you design the UI for {desktop, tablet, phone} to bind to the same core code, dragging connections between that core code and the UI elements for the different environments - I built (https://atari-xt.com/os) XTOS for the Zynq - an OS that started with FreeRTOS and added loadable processes, dynamic linking, shared memory, paging, a boot environment that can be scripted like Linux, networking, a graphical UI based on GEM, with a hardware blitter, and HDMI output with Audio islands mixed in. The blitter owns the video memory and uses shared-memory pools to give each “virtual workstation” (GEM-speak for “view of the display”) its own retained-mode and composited graphics memory. The whole OS boots from power-on to desktop in a couple of seconds, which is the reason for making it, rather than just using Linux, I wanted that “instant-on” feeling. It runs on a Z-turn board from MyIR. - I built an Atari (6502, ANTIC, POKEY, various other chips) (https://atari-xt.com/hardware/x/)emulator, which passes the (https://forums.atariage.com/topic/171296-acid800-an-atari-te...) Acid 800 emulation torture test, and can run games such as Ballblazer, Elektraglide and (https://0x0000ff.co.uk/mov/xt/xtos-aug-11.mov)Despatch Rider. It’s integrated into XTOS, so the OS boots into the GEM-based Desktop.app (written in xc) and you can double-click an icon to launch a game. The plan is to extend that to the ST once I get past the current task, which is … I built a Reddit-like website that I plan to launch in a couple of months, written entirely in xc, both the Linux-based server and the client WASM code; the server-side is just xc code, no Apache, no scripting language, just lean-and-mean xc code handling everything from the TLS handshake to the Postgres database back-end. The main difference between (https://blewit.net/)blewit.net and Reddit is that I don’t collect any personal information, don’t track your habits and sell your data, don’t use adverts (tracking by another name) or any of the other dark patterns social media is infested with these days. Blewit is so named because I think they did. One of the other differentiators is that I plan to support the groups with specialist helpers. You can see a selection of them at (https://blewit.net/sandbox) the blewit sandbox - things like rendered music staves from ABC notation, 3d interactive molecules structure from SMILES notation, mathml with an editor to create it, etc, etc. One last purposely-separated “helper” from the others because of its scale, is the electronic circuit editor/simulator. I introduced it [url=https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/circuit-simulation-fo...]in the EEVBlog projects forum[/url], but no-one seemed to care [grin]. That’s a shame because I think it’s pretty cool, draw the circuit in the editor, you can create your own parts, even store them to a library, add digital logic to pins, import SPICE models, and simulate with ideal or oscilloscope-type probes. It understands transmission lines, tolerances, can run monte-carlo simulations, produce overlaid graphs for {R=1k, 4.7k, 10k} etc., I could go on. The full docs to it are in the (https://blewit.net/post/93083024324820992) Blewit editor-information pages Overall, looking back at what using an LLM has helped me code over the last half-year or so, it is unbelievable what you can code with AI in 2026. I always used to say that I had too many ideas and not enough time to implement them, well that’s still true, but to a significantly lesser extent… |
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| ▲ | bakugo 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I don't think I have ever seen anyone miss the point of free (as in freedom) software as hard as this before. I feel like this is a generational comment, similar to that one from 2007 about Dropbox. I'm going to save it in a safe place. 20 years from now, when free software is a forgotten relic of the past and all computing devices that the average person may legally own are just thin clients into some sort of AI agent in the cloud, incapable of running any unapproved code, I'm going to look back at this and have a good laugh before crying. |
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| ▲ | slopinthebag 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| this assumes the point of oss is purely utilitarian, which is not true for many people |
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| ▲ | gspr 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Are you sure about this? An alternative near future is that what you're describing is used to undermine/rightswash strong copyleft free software for use in proprietary products, while owners of proprietary software (and big movie studios and record labels) start protecting themselves with EULAs forbidding ingestion of the works into LLMs. Another possibility is the one others sketched, where truly user-controlled models are legislated away. Do we really believe that Rockstar would be ok with someone feeding GTA6 to a hypothetical LLM and get a "free" reimplementation out? If that world were to come to fruition, I'd maybe buy the "best thing to happen to free software" story. Otherwise, my bets are on "complete and utter stomping of small IP rights holders in favor of giant ones". In that world, free software is in real trouble. Together with indie artists and writers. I lament how many people don't seem to take this scenario seriously. |
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| ▲ | Pannoniae 17 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | They can write any EULA they want but it's not like they will be able to enforce it in a meaningful way, to be fair. You can't legislate modding away, that's like legislating piracy away, which has famously failed. Music piracy wasn't killed by banning it, it has shrunk in importance because Spotify is fairly cheap and easy. Despite that, many people do still pirate music. In the hypothetical GTA VI case, what can they do about it? Take just about any historical data leak, in pretty much zero cases anyone has been able to scrub all copies of it from the internet. There's plenty of lost media, the stuff no one cares about. But if enough people care about, it can't really be scrubbed away. | | |
| ▲ | gspr 16 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'm so worried when the retort here is essentially "but nobody gets caught breaking the law". What have we become? | | |
| ▲ | Pannoniae 16 hours ago | parent [-] | | Sorry, I'm just being realistic. "Whenever there's a will there's a way" and so on. People have tried to legislate all sorts of various things, even stuff like "PI = 3" without much success because they weren't viable. | | |
| ▲ | ButlerianJihad 7 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Fact Check: π != 3 https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/alabamas-slice-of-pi/ [Usenet: talk.origins; 1 Apr 1998] | |
| ▲ | gspr 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Don't be ridiculous. The fact that it's dumb to legislate mathematical falsehoods doesn't mean we can't successfully legislate things. | | |
| ▲ | Pannoniae 13 hours ago | parent [-] | | I said it's not possible to legislate some things away, i.e. unviable legislation. A hard ban on modding / AI reimplementation isn't viable, because you can't really keep data off the internet, evidenced by things like leaks, Anna's Archive etc. remaining online. People can always reupload the remade GTA or whatever onto noname fileshares, code forges, torrent and so on. |
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| ▲ | mitxela 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Free software is already used in proprietary products and without any washing. Go and buy any phone and then try to get a copy of the source code of all the GPL software on it. The phone maker will just laugh at you all the way to the bank. | | |
| ▲ | gspr 13 hours ago | parent [-] | | "The law isn't being properly enforced" is still way better than "let's ignore the law". | | |
| ▲ | mitxela 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | The law is whatever gets enforced. | | |
| ▲ | gspr 10 minutes ago | parent [-] | | This is such a bad take. It really isn't. For example, an unenforced or poorly enforced law can at any moment start to be enforced. Or powers can threaten to enforce it to compel behavior. This is vastly different from a law that doesn't exist. |
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| ▲ | lezojeda 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | congratsmoron 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
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