| ▲ | captainbland 3 hours ago |
| If we're not owning it, you're not selling it, you're leasing it. Terminology on sales pages should reflect this. "Subscribe now" "purchase license" etc. should be mandated if this is the expectation. Terms like "buy" without qualification are misleading in this context, but they won't remove them from store pages because people are more likely to pay higher rates for something if they believe they are actually owning the good in perpetuity. |
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| ▲ | Topology1 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| This is actually state law in CA. People reported Sony to California's Attorney General, who basically said they weren't going to do anything about it. Unfortunately the law is only as useful as its enforcement. |
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| ▲ | bix6 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Is that true? This says it’s still pending with a hearing in Oct https://clouddosage.com/playstation-digital-game-lawsuit-son... | |
| ▲ | dataflow 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | What was their rationale for doing nothing? | | |
| ▲ | kevin_thibedeau an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Sony supports the media industry in CA. It would be a shame if they moved their studios elsewhere... | |
| ▲ | benjiro29 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | What was their rationale for doing nothing? Carrot: Free vacations? Merch? Benefits ... Stick: Scared because taking actions against the Buy (aka you own nothing) is paramount to going in a fight with a entire industry. | | |
| ▲ | b112 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Class action civil case should still be doable? And 100k small claims court cases would hurt. | | |
| ▲ | skrellm an hour ago | parent [-] | | > Class action civil case should still be doable? Nope, because there's a stance in EULA's footnote (with extremely small letters) that you give up your rights to class action civil case. | | |
| ▲ | b112 16 minutes ago | parent [-] | | So you've verified this? In this specific case? Or are you just being a wise guy. Regardless, these sorts of things have been fought before, over and over. Often, courts don't care about an EULA when wrongful action has been taken. The jurisdiction matters too, of course. |
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| ▲ | Waterluvian 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This is the only regulation I feel is reasonable. When it comes to luxury goods like video games, it doesn’t make sense to dictate how the product is offered. But by all means insist they’re clear with what the transaction type is. I can imagine the natural competitive wedge where GOG can say “Buy Game” but Steam has to say “Lease Game” on their buttons. |
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| ▲ | Zambyte 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | This would be case-by-case in Steam. There are some games which really do sell under "irrevocable license to play" (which, short of granting copyright privileges, is about as close as you can get to ownership for a digital product). Other games on Steam do not. I think it would highlight the differences between publishers / studios more than store fronts. | | |
| ▲ | chrisjj 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > There are some games which really do sell under "irrevocable license to play" (which, short of granting copyright privileges, is about as close as you can get to ownership for a digital product). Far from it. E.g. excludes resale. | | |
| ▲ | Zambyte an hour ago | parent [-] | | For digital products, that would mean copyright privileges. Else there is no definition of "buy" that applies to GOG sales either. |
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| ▲ | Boxxed 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I even take issue with "Purchase license". Shouldn't it be "Lease License"? Purchase implies that it can't be revoked, no? |
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| ▲ | usefulcat 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Depends on the details of the license, no? | |
| ▲ | singpolyma3 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Nah. Licenses can be revoked. When I buy a hunting license I don't get it forever | | |
| ▲ | jurgenburgen 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | You don’t buy a hunting license though. You pay a fee and the government issues you a license. | | |
| ▲ | delecti 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That feels like a distinction without a difference. On the other hand, "buy" vs "buy license" is actually a meaningful difference. | | |
| ▲ | jtbayly 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | They both communicate the same thing because they both start with “buy.” They communicate Ownership and collapse to the same thing to a normal consumer: implied ownership of the game. Insisting that the ownership is of the license and it says it on the button doesn’t really help, because no reasonable person thinks that a “purchased” license can be revoked for any reason or no reason at all. Why doesn’t anybody think that? Because “owning” a license implies you actually control it. But a license you can’t control at all means you own NOTHING! Not even a license. So “buy license" miscommunicates in the same way as “buy.” | | |
| ▲ | jonhohle 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Then maybe is should be forced to say: “Buy revocable license” and require the user to answer randomized multiple choice questions regarding the terms of the license that act in opposition to the purchaser. Collect metrics on wrong answers and if greater than say, 15% of people can’t determine what they are actually handing over money for, fine and require additional clarity. Or, just flip the tables and say the historical meaning of buy implies transfer of ownership in exchange for some trade. Since the seller no longer owns the items that was sold in the transaction, they have no additional rights that are covered by other areas of the law (such as copyright). First sale applies and if the seller doesn’t provide a mechanism to facilitate that sale, the buyer is free to exercise that right in whatever way they see fit. | | |
| ▲ | inigyou an hour ago | parent [-] | | Revocable is an obscure word to normal people. It should say temporary. | | |
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| ▲ | pc86 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | And the license is not perpetual. It can expire or be revoked. Are you suggesting that "Purchase license" is somehow unclear and "Pay a fee and we will issue you a license" is clearer? |
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| ▲ | embedding-shape 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | But licenses in general you don't just "buy", you "earn" them somehow, then also usually you pay a price for it too, but it's typically about knowing about some rules and/or norms. | | |
| ▲ | jdiff 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Software licenses are bought all the time. | | |
| ▲ | embedding-shape 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Sure, but that's a very different type of license compared to a hunting license, driver license or similar stuff, you know, the context. | | |
| ▲ | pc86 an hour ago | parent [-] | | And the initial comment that started this was that "Purchase license" in reference to this... software license... wasn't clear. Arguing about whether you buy a hunting license or that it's not a perfect analogy seems pedantic and irrelevant. | | |
| ▲ | embedding-shape an hour ago | parent [-] | | > Arguing about whether you buy a hunting license or that it's not a perfect analogy seems pedantic and irrelevant It's a completely different thing, it's like comparing buying a "license" (ticket) to ride a roller coaster and taking a driving license, they're obviously different things, not exactly pedantic, imo. |
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| ▲ | thayne an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Right but when you buy it, they tell you how long it is valid for. With video games it is often for some unknown amount of time, and of course they don't tell you that. | |
| ▲ | infinite_spin 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | True, but you do get it under clear terms, for a duration that is both obvious and well established. | |
| ▲ | hobonation 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | tokai 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | A lease is a license/document/interest/contract/deed granting use rights. So lease license is not meaningful. |
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| ▲ | simpaticoder 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It's a non-transferable lease that can be canceled at any time by the issuer. The real problem is that most of society still thinks of games as a piece of physical media that you combine with a player that allows you to play the game. In that world you have a liscense to the software, and a physical token which is transferable and therefore valuable. I'd argue that we need to decouple transferability and cancel ability from physical media. If this were to happen then the word "Buy" makes sense precisely the same way it used to with physical media. Of course more provision needs to be provided for live service games regarding cancel ability. |
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| ▲ | stetrain 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yes, some people are trying to achieve this by arguing that physical media should stick around forever. I think the real solution is providing the same protections and rights for digital purchases as we had with physical media. That would be a real win for consumers since we get the advantages of digital media with the ownership and transference rights of physical media. Of course this would be a great inconvenience to those who wish to charge the same price for a temporary revocable license to the content, and they have deep lobbying pockets to fight against it. | | |
| ▲ | Kinrany 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | As long as we're in copyright world, it ought to be structured as three separate parties: 1. Licensor, the company who makes the game. 2. Licensee, the person buying a digital copy of the game. 3. Safekeeper, Steam or another platform that stores the digital copy on behalf of Licensee. Similar to how depositories store securities and guarantee that they can be neither lost nor duplicated. For a separate fee perhaps. | | |
| ▲ | inigyou an hour ago | parent [-] | | Good luck. SKG got an official response from the EU that was basically "copyright law is a sacred cow, we can't change it" |
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| ▲ | thayne an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| And if you buy a license, it should either have a fixed term that is clearly communicated, or should be forever, and transferrable, not "untile we decide we don't want you to have it anymore". |
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| ▲ | numpad0 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Someone in past threads mentioned that many digital sales website in fact no longer use "buy" anymore, and instead deniably implicate purchases by such expressions as "Add to Cart", "Proceed to Checkout", and "Pay". |
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| ▲ | hellcow an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Yes, all this talk about the language used still leads us to the same frustrating outcome: customer pays for something, and at some unspecified point in the future that same thing is taken away from them. I don't care if 6 years earlier I clicked a button that said Pay vs Buy, I care that my purchase is being removed due to some backroom licensing issue. | |
| ▲ | inigyou an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Wonder if you could have those buttons and not give the user anything at the end, since you never said they were buying anything, only giving you money. |
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| ▲ | AgingGamer 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Very much matching my thinking on the argument the plaintiffs are making. Sony just needs to change the labels on a few buttons. But for some reason they don't want to and are willing to go to court on the matter. As you say, using the word "Buy" is stronger than "License", but it seems a strange hill to die upon. |
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| ▲ | ncr100 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Yes. "buy" and "purchase" are redefined in the EULA |
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| ▲ | epicureanideal 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | They shouldn’t be able to redefine common terms when closer terms like lease or license are available. It’s misleading. | | |
| ▲ | everyone 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | It's also totally illegal in many countries.. you can write whatever nonsense you want on an eula, but it will be about as useful as toilet paper in court. |
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| ▲ | ahartmetz 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In which case I redefine "pay" as "torrent it with a very respectable upload ratio". | |
| ▲ | loconut 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I wonder if said EULA can also help me make sense of my diceware password. |
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| ▲ | motbus3 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I would have spent much less money if I knew they could revoke the license at their own discretion |
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| ▲ | yawnxyz 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| this would wreck a lot of the marketing efforts and probably be bad for their bottom line in the long run I'm surprised the Sony team isn't freaked out about this |
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| ▲ | bsimpson 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Then the button becomes License and everyone knows that's the one you click to buy. As much as I empathize with (and even support) the reasoning, I wonder if it would have a tangible effect. Is there anyone who was gonna click "buy" but not "license" (presuming they relabel the button and everything else is the same)? |
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| ▲ | californical 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I think it depends. If they are also required to allow 3rd party stores, and one of the third parties has a “buy” button while the others have “lease (lifetime)” buttons, it might sway a decent number of people. Same thing with consoles, if one has “buy” and the other “lease”, then it might not convert everyone but could it take 5% of sales? 10%? 20%?? | | |
| ▲ | ryandrake 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I don't think the general public is engaged enough to understand the difference between "license" and "buy". They will look at the button and think "This is what I click to get it" and don't understand that they are just temporarily renting the thing. To most people, "license" is a noun: something you carry in your pocket to drive. The word is already overused by media vendors to confuse people. | | |
| ▲ | inigyou an hour ago | parent [-] | | It does defuse any excuses like "why do you say I can't buy games? I bought this game just now" and that can be a stepping stone to actual change. |
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| ▲ | bsimpson 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | That's assuming there's an alternative. Yes, the language should be clear and precise. Also, if the whole industry string-replaces "lease" for "buy," I doubt the effect will be much. |
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| ▲ | Avicebron 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It should in a functioning system, people who see lease or license on a game may be more hesitant to buy it and might pick a game who differentiates itself by marketing itself as being a permanent purchase. | |
| ▲ | deaton 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The point is to not mislead people. When you write "buy," you are implying that the "buy"er is obtaining a perpetual right to use the software, subject to certain rules (i.e. you can't make copies and redistribute it). "Buy" implies the buyer has an absolute right. When "buy" actually means a temporary revocable license is issued, and the buyer has no rights, that's a problem. |
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| ▲ | dfxm12 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| We won't know without A/B testing, but I suspect aesthetics mean nothing here and, for example, someone isn't going to turn down playing GTA VI if the only button between them and the game says "purchase license" as opposed to "buy". I'd rather have my rights as a consumer protected or get something tangible for giving them up (like cheaper games) than introduce even more legalese into online shops. |
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| ▲ | 13415 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I agree but that's not even enough. If you only lease the game, they will also need to tell you exactly for how long you lease it. Any reasonable person would have an issue with a lease for an indefinite time period that can be canceled at any time without refund, it doesn't sound acceptable at all. |
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| ▲ | inigyou an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This is the law in some places. Companies solved the problem by not using any buying verbs at all. The button you click to not-buy the app says "$3.99" or "Add to cart". When you go to the cart the next step is "Pay now" or "Continue to checkout". |
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| ▲ | braiamp 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| [dead] |