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beeforpork 7 hours ago

And dont you pronounce that 'x' as 'ks'! It's pronounced as 'sh'! Just like in 'xocolatl'.

vain 15 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Nobody says it your way - https://youglish.com/pronounce/axolotl/english

Petersipoi 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I have a feeling you're fighting a losing battle here

embedding-shape 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Prenounciation and correcting other's spelling is always a losing battle, probably for everyone involved.

rezonant 5 hours ago | parent [-]

*Pronunciation

penguin_booze 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Hey, that was the american spelling.

867-5309 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

whoosh

dhosek an hour ago | parent | next [-]

*wush

rezonant 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

i think it's actually a whoosh for you :-)

TeMPOraL 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That one is ancient history. My 6yo is currently fighting her friends and their parents alike to make them realize and learn that there is an "L" at the end - it's "axolotl", not "axolot".

dasyatidprime 4 hours ago | parent [-]

It's technically not just “an L” if we're trying to avoid Anglicizing the pronunciation, right? The “tl” cluster is its own affricate with a lateral fricative as its tail, or am I misremembering?

brunoborges 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Every scientific battle is worth fighting for!

psychoslave 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Scientific study of languages generally admits that language drift eventually.

7 hours ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
whyenot 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

What is scientific about this pronunciation? Axolotl is not the scientfic name (its Ambystoma mexicanum), and usually the goal with pronouncing scientific names is for the listener to be able to spell the name after hearing it (at least for botany, which is what I am familiar with).

asveikau 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In Spanish, it's "ajolote".

In the Spanish of the 1490s and early 1500s, there was a "SH" sound, spelled with X, the same way there is today in other Iberian languages like Portuguese, Galician, Catalan, or Basque. They got to Mexico and wrote many indigenous words with "SH" sounds (like "Mexico" and "axolotl") with X. Shortly after this, the pronunciation shifted to the modern Spanish J sound (which in much of the Spanish speaking world is like the CH in loch, but in some countries is like an H sound).

pezezin an hour ago | parent [-]

I am Spanish myself and didn't know about this fact until recently. It explains many "old-fashioned" spellings like México, Pedro Ximenez, or Don Quixote (nowadays usually written as Quijote, but you will find the old spelling in other languages).

For those who are curious enough, this article explains the evolution of the Spanish sibilants and why our languages uses J and Z in a very different way from pretty much any other language:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonological_history_of_Spanis...

asveikau 8 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

My favorite example: It also explains why "sherry" wine comes from "Jerez" ... Because it used to be Xerez at the time that most European languages learned the name.

jolmg 4 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Was a bit disappointed that, in the Spanish dub of X-Men, it isn't pronounced "Profesor Javier".

dav_Oz 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Well, actually I suppose the hardest part is to pronounce the other consonant hispanicized as -tl at the end (a soft lisp)

[ɬ] voiceless alveolar lateral fricative [0]

in a sufficient fluent manner (except you happen to speak e.g. Welsh, there the sound is written as ll so by happenstance the "axolotl" found in Wales can be pronounced fluently by the Welsh) otherwise you are saying it half correct which is arguably worse.

So let the nahuatl speaking people have a laugh at your expense for pronouncing it the germanic way or if you want to go unnoticed do it the evolved spanish romanic way, a good middle ground I guess.

Anyway I think it is generally a lot fun to hear words pronounced "wrong" by foreigners or having trouble hearing/pronouncing it "right" respectively heavy accents are hilarious icebreakers (:

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_dental_and_alveolar_...

da_chicken 2 hours ago | parent [-]

You're close.

The Welsh or Icelandic "ll" is not quite the same. That's a "voiceless lateral fricative", lacking the alveolar break that earned it the "t" in "tl" for the Latinized spelling. It's much closer than most languages get, but it is a different sound.

The Nahuatl consonant is a "voiceless alveolar lateral affricate". It is a single constant represented with [tɬ] or, more correctly, with a tie bar between those two glyphs: [t͡ɬ].

2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
taspeotis 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

No the "X" is pronounced "ten" like in "Mac OS X"

hirvi74 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Makes sense. I am running MacOS Tahoetl.

prmoustache 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Well most non nahuatl speaking mexicans simply call them by the spanish traduction, ajolote.

culi 2 hours ago | parent [-]

That's nice for them, but how will I prove my intellectual superiority if I don't have a historically accurate pronunciation?

pants2 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

And "valet" is supposed to rhyme with "ballot" not "ballet" but you'll still sound like an idiot if you say "take your car to the val-it"

gnabgib 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

What's your reference? Cambridge: /ˈvæl.eɪ/ https://dictionary.cambridge.org/pronunciation/english/valet

(britannica[0], merriam-webster[1])

[0]: https://www.britannica.com/dictionary/eb/audio?word=va%2Alet...

[1]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/valet

pants2 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Your Merriam Webster source has "val-it" as the first pronunciation (but I think in this case both are correct and valit is less common)

gnabgib 2 hours ago | parent [-]

It does.. and I've never heard anyone say it that way (and I appreciate that you chose the only dictionary that gave anything close to your argument).. but that's still nothing like "ballot".

3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
aksss 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Drink some clarit with the valit over a good filit.

Deebster 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Jeeves (the gentleman's personal gentleman) is a valet that would be pronounced VAL-et.

bananzamba 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Or like Meshico

asveikau 4 hours ago | parent [-]

That is how Mexico used to be pronounced in Old Spanish. Kind of like how X is sometimes pronounced "sh" in Portuguese. The name was based on an indigenous name which had the "sh" sound there.

pif 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If you want it to be pronounced "sh", just write it "sh".

foldr 4 hours ago | parent [-]

They wanted it to be pronounced 'x', so they wrote it 'x': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nahuatl_orthography

zamadatix 4 hours ago | parent [-]

They can spell/pronounce things differently than we do and it's all cool either way. It's very common for animals to have different spellings, pronunciations, or even completely different names between languages. If you add time and regional axes, the same variances can be true even when keeping with the same language!

foldr 4 hours ago | parent [-]

I'm just explaining why it's written 'x' and pronounced [ʃ]. If it pleases people to knowingly mispronounce Nahuatl loan words, they can do so, but it seems rather silly given that [ʃ] is also in the phonemic inventory of English. What next? Are you going say 'fowks pass' for faux pas?

zamadatix 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Where I disagree is the premise it's supposed to be mispronunciation to say/spell a word differently than where it came from, doubly so when we change the spellings/pronunciations of our own words!

foldr 4 hours ago | parent [-]

I think the disconnect here is that I actually wasn't aware that 'axolotl' existed as an established word in English. If you're looking at it just as a Nahuatl word written using Nahuatl orthographic conventions, then it's weird for someone to suggest that it should be written with a 'sh' because that's how it's pronounced.

zamadatix 4 hours ago | parent [-]

All good, I just don't think it's so weird :).

foldr 4 hours ago | parent [-]

What I meant is that it would be weird for an English speaker to have views on how Nahuatl words should be written using Nahuatl orthography, since different languages obviously have different orthographic conventions and associate different symbols with different sounds.

zamadatix 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Oh, got ya - I thought they were talking about how English writes/pronounces its version of the word rather than how Nahuatl should do so! I agree fully in that case, it wouldn't make any sense at all for how foreign languages do something to dictate how another does - or to even expect them to be the same.

Salgat 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If you're speaking Spanish yes.

lovich 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Is there a word for foreign loan words that have their pronounciation changed?

I feel like axolotl fits in that category as it’s a commonly known animal in the English speaking world, that has a common pronounciation remarkedly different from the language it came from.

Loan words going from English -> Asian languages like Thai and Japanese such as “beer” becoming “beeru” fit the same vein.

contingencies 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Given the damage to the abdomen, we might infer it was axed a little.

mc32 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That’s like telling the Japanese that “cutlet” is not pronounced “katsu.” It ain’t gonna change. Or even having southerners pronounce squirrel with two sellable [autocorrect : syllables] Good luck with that!

anticorporate 5 hours ago | parent [-]

> two sellable

I'm a southerner and we generally have squirrels in plentiful quantities, so it's never occurred to me to sell them. /s

pkaeding 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Mepps buys the tails, they make fishing lures from them: https://www.mepps.com/squirrel-tail/

anticorporate 4 hours ago | parent [-]

At twelve cents for a half tail or twenty five cents for a full tail, I think I'll stick to just watching them climb trees and bury nuts. Especially since I'm expected to salt, straighten, and dry the tails first.

jasonmp85 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[dead]

fluoridation 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"Shocolate"? Who says it like that?

patall 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

People speaking languages other than English.

fluoridation 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

We're speaking English, so why even entertain the idea of pronouncing "axolotl" differently, in that case? The Japanese say "en", but that doesn't seem to inspire anyone else not to say "yen".

foldr 5 hours ago | parent [-]

That's because in English we get it via Spanish, which doesn't have ʃ (although interestingly, it was just in the process of losing that sound in the early 17th century). If we're going from Nahuatl direct to English, and the Nahuatl sound also exists in English, then you may as well just use the correct sound. Otherwise, what are you going to do with Xochimilco?

bromuro 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Not really - it is [t͡ʃ] (“ch”) not [ʃ] (“sh”).

wizzwizz4 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Auf Deutsch, Schokolade. /ʃoko/, per https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Schokolade.

jkestner 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Any self-respecting Aztecophile. They're also the cause of startup names dropping a vowl. Insufferable.

gerdesj 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Are you sure that x is an ecks and not a chi that straightened up a bit?

The thing about script and type is they only really work by prior agreement.

There is a set of marks on the page that we all agree on "is" an axolotl. How we choose to say that out loud is up to the individual. On the other hand, if we were to converse with you directly ... vocally ... then you could tell us how you say the name and if we were convinced that you were at least Mexican, we might follow your lead.

Script, type and sounds rarely match up precisely, ever.

I live in a town called Yeovil (Somerset, UK). I have a mug with at least 65 different spellings of the name over the last ~1900 odd years. It started off as Gifle "bend in the river" in a Saxon language. We have had a "great vowel shift" in "english" and three different varieties of "english" noted since then, just in these parts, let alone elsewhere.

The place name was spelt as Evil or Euil for a while! No-one batted an eyelid because the concept of the grammar nazi was a long way in the future and spelling was pretty random in general. Ivel, Ivol, Givelle and many more have been documented.

Please record how you say the name and make it available. Fiddling with text will never cut it.