| ▲ | bhouston 7 hours ago |
| For those wondering, it is verifiable story, it is covered as fact in Israeli newspapers: https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-forces-kill-west-bank-... https://www.ynetnews.com/article/p7mq5k5bs The main justification floated is that the car was "going fast" and thus made the undercover Israeli soldiers feel unsafe. The New York Times describes it as such: "Ali Bani Odeh’s wife and four young boys hadn’t seen him in a month and a half when he came home to Tammun, in the West Bank, from his construction job in Israel late on Friday to spend the last few days of Ramadan with his family. On Saturday night, the boys persuaded him to take them out for a drive. Eid al-Fitr, the end of Ramadan, was coming, so there were new clothes to buy. The day’s fast had been broken, so there were sweets to be had, too. They picked up fried doughnut holes in Tubas, saving them for later, but the clothing shop they went to in Nablus was closed. It was already past midnight, so they headed back to Tammun: Khaled, 11, the oldest, in the back with Mustafa, 8, and Muhammad, 5. Othman, 6, blind and incapable of walking or feeding himself, was in his mother’s lap in front. As they rounded a corner slowly, a few minutes from home, young Khaled and Mustafa recounted on Sunday, their mother, Waad, 35, asked her husband to pull over and take Othman from her so she could get something from her bag on the floor. Suddenly, the boys said, they saw laser pointers shining on their family from every direction, heard their mother scream, heard their father say “God is great” — and then heard a deafening fusillade of gunfire." https://www.nytimes.com/2026/03/15/world/middleeast/palestin... |
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| ▲ | wk_end 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| The situation in the West Bank (and similar forces are at play in Gaza, too) remind me of what's wrong with American policing, at a far more extreme scale. The people charged with enforcing the peace deploy lethal force with near impunity at the slightest "provocation" (a child throwing a stone, a car driving too fast); I wouldn't be surprised if IDF forces deployed to the West Bank are trained much like American police officers are, to operate in constant fear and perceive absolutely everything and everyone as a deadly threat to be neutralized. The soldiers themselves are raised in a culture with deeply racist undertones, making them all too ready to view any random Palestinian as a terrorist. Meanwhile, the bureaucracy that should be overseeing them works only to protect them. It's no surprise that things like this happen as often as they do. Reform in the US is imaginable, I can and do believe, but it's much harder for me to imagine it in Israel - even much of the so-called left in Israel is too radicalized against Palestinians after 100 years of conflict, the Second Intifada, and October 7. |
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| ▲ | ryandrake 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That's a huge problem (immediate, unjustified escalation to violence becoming the norm) and: > The main justification floated is that the car was "going fast" and thus made the undercover Israeli soldiers feel unsafe. "I feel unsafe" has become the catch-all excuse for everything in the recent decade. It's used to justify everything from Karen complaining about someone's behavior in public to people calling the cops on someone for looking at them wrong, to making a scene on a public bus, to police officers jumping the gun and escalating to violence, all the way to war crimes. When did "I feel unsafe" become this ultimate i-can-do-anything-and-avoid-responsibility card? Like a magic spell that you can cast before doing something crazy. It's like that old "He's coming right for us" South Park joke, but instead of being a joke it has real life and death consequences. | | |
| ▲ | xnyan 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Most people will never interact with a cop on duty outside of a speeding ticket or some other mundane encounter. A major chuck of what many people think about police comes from TV and movies. It's impossible to overstate the influence of Dragnet (the OG police procedural from the early 50s) alone on the widely held idea that police are mostly heroic and good. Police procedurals are still extremely popular, they overwhelmingly portray law enforcement in an extremely idealized way. There are exceptions (The Wire, The Shield), but they are noteworty in that police are not heroes. |
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| ▲ | C6JEsQeQa5fCjE 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > I wouldn't be surprised if IDF forces deployed to the West Bank are trained much like American police officers are IDF trains them. https://www.amnestyusa.org/blog/with-whom-are-many-u-s-polic... | | |
| ▲ | wk_end 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That checks out. Although the history of "Warrior Policing" in the US predates this (going back to the 60s) and extends far beyond IDF training programs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrior_policing | |
| ▲ | apical_dendrite 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | David Simon and others have written extensively for decades about the problems with the Baltimore Police Department, and other departments around the country. They trace these problems back to the war on drugs and other purely American factors. The Amnesty article that you're citing is a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. The Baltimore Police Department did not need to learn about constitutional violations from the Israelis. | | |
| ▲ | pstuart 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Everybody thinks the War on Drugs is about "keeping people safe". It never was, it was always about manufacturing a tool to oppress "others". | | |
| ▲ | nielsbot 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | You can add The War On Terror to that list. Where do think US police get all their fun toys to play with? "How 9/11 helped to militarize American law enforcement": https://www.brookings.edu/articles/how-9-11-helped-to-milita... | | |
| ▲ | pstuart 35 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Yep. But the War on Drugs has been around much longer and is more relevant to people's day to day lives. And people buy into it. I hear this all the time "Sure, weed should be legal, and cocaine too because I like to party now and then, but the 'hard stuff' should definitely be illegal because its dangerous". To make matters worse -- people think that those who advocate against it are doing so because they want to do drugs (and some may) but it's a civil liberties issue and is the foundation for the militarization of the police. |
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| ▲ | convolvatron 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | from that lens it was almost necessary to invent a pretense since people got all huffy about overt oppression at the end of Jim Crow. |
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| ▲ | mupuff1234 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Pretty sure police brutality was invented way before Israel existed. | | |
| ▲ | juliusceasar 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | bhouston 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The strong/dominant beating up in the weak is as old as time unfortunately. One doesn’t always have to make that particular comparison as it is a sensitive one. You can point to any major instance of colonization (by whomever) to see similar polices and in the past it was even more brutal because there were no reporters (eg Belgium Free Congo had an estimated population decline of 75% https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrocities_in_the_Congo_Free_S... .) | |
| ▲ | myth_drannon 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Oh, they did for sure. They learned at any opportunity Europeans or others will discard them, physically or otherwise. Your kind also learned from Goebbels, Palestinian movement's greatest teacher. | |
| ▲ | 6510 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | In the 1200's British colonizers invaded Ireland, in 1920's the same colonial oppressors were moved to Palestine. Arthur Balfour was Chief Secretary for Ireland from 1887 till 1891 and it was his idea to create a Jewish state in Palestine. Ship out the jews, radicalize the natives, have the two of them fight for hundreds of years. It couldn't be a more British idea. | | |
| ▲ | wk_end 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | It was absolutely not Balfour's idea to create a Jewish state in Palestine. The Balfour declaration was from 1917. But the Zionists first started to move to the region in the hopes of establishing a homeland in the early 1880s, based on their belief that a Jewish state (anywhere; Argentina was another candidate) was necessary for their long-term survival due to the long history of antisemitism in Europe - getting worse by the day - and their (correct, it turned out!) fear that it could reach cataclysmic levels. It was very much their idea. Balfour's declaration, which wasn't official law, didn't single-handedly dictate British policy for the next 30 years and 14 governments; people vastly overstate the importance of it. Britain did not "ship out" the Jews - most Jewish migrants to Mandatory Palestine were from Eastern Europe and came to Mandatory Palestine very much of their own volition, without British help. And in 1939 - just in time for the Holocaust - Britain cracked down hard on Jewish migration to Mandatory Palestine to try to quell Arab unrest; Jews continued to migrate illegally anyway, despite what the British wanted. Of course Britain had its role in contributing to the violence in the region, but to characterize Israel as a British colony is to deny Jews agency. It is curiously antisemitic, even as it (implicitly) absolves them of some of the blame for how things have gone. |
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| ▲ | dustractor 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > I wouldn't be surprised if IDF forces deployed to the West Bank are trained much like American police officers are' American police officers ARE trained much like IDF forces. By the IDF! https://jinsa.org/jinsa_program/homeland-security-program/ | |
| ▲ | 6510 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Their media is non stop hammering the citizen with scary Muslim stories since the beginning of the country, every day since birth, with a density as if nothing else ever happened in the world. Deprogramming is possible. Just tell them it is impossible to argue it was their own idea. They know how hard it was rubbed in their face. | |
| ▲ | DiogenesKynikos 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The IDF is a foreign occupation army, not the police. At least in the US, the police come from much the same communities as they patrol, and there's some sort of democratic accountability. Don't like the police? You can vote for local government candidates who will implement reforms. In the West Bank, Palestinians are subject to arbitrary violence at the hands of foreign soldiers. The IDF is not there to protect Palestinians. It's there to protect the Israeli settlers who are taking Palestinian land. If Palestinians don't like how the IDF behaves, tough luck. Palestinians can't vote in Israeli elections, so they have zero say in the government that exercises ultimate authority over their lives. This is a fundamentally different situation from policing in the US. | |
| ▲ | dmitrygr 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > at the slightest "provocation" Is that it though? When one has historical reasons to expect being attacked, one must be vigilant and one must be trigger-ready. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_at... | | |
| ▲ | wk_end 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Yes, American police use these kinds of justifications when innocent people are killed too. It's absurd (watch Surviving Edged Weapons [0] some time) either way. The reality is, if you have soldiers mowing down children throwing rocks, mowing down families driving around, mowing down kids playing football, mowing down toddlers in their bedrooms, mowing down hundreds of people each year [1], you've over-indexed on vigilance and under-indexed on the value of human life. You're not trigger-ready, you're trigger-happy. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6jhru-EqDA [1] https://www.un.org/unispal/document/ohchr-press-release-17oc... | | |
| ▲ | philistine 30 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | When RLM enlightens on the police brutality roiling America, and entertains! | |
| ▲ | dzhiurgis 37 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | > under-indexed on the value of human life That's already given, by the other party who is hosting the game. If the players don't value my life, I'm not going to value theirs. Pretty simple. |
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| ▲ | jmward01 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | A professional looks at and understands the situation as it exists now. A professional is trained to not get into situations where fear controls them. Your argument is a compelling one that either these are not professionals or that they are professionals and are doing this on purpose. The stats today clearly show the massive difference between danger to Israeli personnel and Palestinians. Israel at this point has either failed to train professional forces that seek to deescalate and avoid dangerous situations or is training forces to find situations they can claim fear as a justification for murder. So, pick. They are either amateurs at which point it is a deplorable to put amateurs with this much force near a vulnerable population or they are professionals trained to do exactly this, find ways to kill a vulnerable population and claim self defense. | | |
| ▲ | dmitrygr 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | A professional is not obligated to risk death (or die) on the off chance that you are belligerent but not actually dangerous. Do not ever act belligerent around law enforcement, in any country, especially in a country where they LITERALLY EXPECT to be ambushed by people who act like that, because such people have been doing it for decades. Be calm. Do not run. Talk clearly. Keep your hands visible. Did your parents not teach you? | | |
| ▲ | ozlikethewizard 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | So what exactly did the 8 year old boy sat in the back of his parents car do wrong? | | |
| ▲ | dmitrygr 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Nothing, and that is very bad luck. My heart breaks for the kid. But unless you are suggesting that laws should be not applied to those with kids, I am not sure why that matters? What do you suggest? I cannot wait for "kid" to be a number one accessory to bring to a heist then. | | |
| ▲ | Dusseldorf 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Again, what law was broken here? By anyone in the car? I'm struggling to understand how this wasn't outright execution. |
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| ▲ | jmward01 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I'll repeat the bit about professionals being trained to avoid and deescalate. That is the point. I think the details of this, and many similar incidents clearly show a lack of attempt to deescalate or avoid. That was the clear argument I made in my post and am re-emphasizing now. This clear trend shows either malicious intent by professionals or amateurs put in a situation they shouldn't have been allowed near and those above them should be held accountable for it. | |
| ▲ | mindslight 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Or in democratic societies we can insist that our "public servants" actually serve the public interest of law and order rather than merely using it as a pretext to be able to commit their own violent crimes. Your rationalization is nothing more than a product of a failed society. Bringing it up as pragmatic advice might make sense, although still not for this incident where the "offense" seems to have been merely stopping a car on the side of the road. But invoking it as some universal value of "what ought" is a pure crab bucket mentality. | |
| ▲ | DiogenesKynikos 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The IDF is not law enforcement. It's a foreign army. It treats Palestinians with utter contempt and has no problem with killing them. Its job is to protect Israeli settlers who are taking Palestinian land and to prevent the Palestinians from resisting Israeli rule. Comparing the IDF to law enforcement in a democratic country is not relevant. |
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| ▲ | jll29 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| A certain amount of politics should/must be tolerated on HN, because you cannot compartmentalize technology, politics and morality. No-one, not even people who say they like technology but do not care about politics, should be able to live their life wihtout knowing that we live in a world where six-year old blind children are murdered with automatic assault rifles. (For the same reason that no-one should be able to live not knowing that jewish once were murdered in the millions in gas chambers.) |
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| ▲ | TacticalCoder 6 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | > (For the same reason that no-one should be able to live not knowing that jewish once were murdered in the millions in gas chambers.) Or much more most recently than WWII: not knowing that 1200 civilians were slaughtered by Hamas terrorists, whom palestinians did vote in power. Or even more recently: not knowing that the islamic republic of Iran slaughtered 30 000 unarmed civilians and went as far as sending its guards into hospitals to finish the wounded. Not that anything excuse shooting kids at point blank: but we all know the BBC --and oh so many other media-- prefer to cover a family of muslim kids being shot by the IDF than to cover the slaughter of 30 000 civilians. When it's muslims killing muslims: that's not newsworthy to them. A missile landing on a school and killing kids? That's ground for lots of coverage. But 30 000 civilians getting slaughtered? Let's not talk about that. That's the main issue with politics on HN: it's slanted towards making one side look evil while making excuses or being lip-sealed about the causes of all this mess. It's the crazy double standards. | |
| ▲ | oulipo2 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Technology IS politics. Technology is a form of control. And in the capitalist system, this control is mostly exerted by private companies, on which the rules of democracy do not apply. There must be guardrails | | | |
| ▲ | vybandz 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | pasquinelli 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | i've been on hn a long time, and if there's a prohibition against anything vaguely political if it can't be connected to technology, i've never known it. | | |
| ▲ | muzani 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It's not strictly tech. But tech tends to be both new and intellectual. Sometimes it can be an old phenomenon but also curious; people often just paste Wikipedia links here and they trend. From the guidelines: On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity. Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, or celebrities, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic. | |
| ▲ | jibbit 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | there is and always has been a strong prohibition of anything political on HN. it is widely and frequently discussed as the main problem with HN. Usually, a post like this would be removed very quickly | | | |
| ▲ | nxor2 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I was shadowbanned for mentioning Iryna Zarutska. Most political topics can be connected to technology: technology after all is often how we hear of and discuss these things. | | |
| ▲ | disqard 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | How did you realize you were shadowbanned? I'm curious because I sometimes wonder, if that happened to me, would it affect the way in which I engage with this website? FWIW, I often lurk, but sometimes engage (like right now). Perhaps it could happen to me and I would not realize it for a while... |
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| ▲ | throw4748t858 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | |
| ▲ | fc417fc802 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > automatic assault rifles Trying hard to embellish your language I see. Might I suggest "military style automatic tactical assault rifle"? My impression is that topics that involve politics are tolerated, even encouraged. It's politically charged discourse such as yours that's not welcome. It's near impossible to have an intellectual exchange with a political pundit. I wonder if any VC out there would fund my pitch for an AI enhanced military style automatic tactical assault rifle with a copilot 360 targeting integration to ensure our troops can noscope420 at all times as well as a blockchain layer for auditing discharge events. | | |
| ▲ | MSKJ 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | this comment is very pedantic | | |
| ▲ | fc417fc802 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | There are many objections that could be raised to both my tone and content there but I don't think "pedantic" is one of them. It's certainly mocking. The subject matter is overly political. It's even plausible that it strays across the line laid down by the HN guidelines, although personally I think it's acceptable given the context. Something about fighting fire with fire. |
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| ▲ | fennecbutt 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Eh, tbh I've given up. Can't point out the terrible things that the IDF are up to without being labelled an apologist, or terrorist supporter, or just getting a massively negative reaction. Now I'm not one to fall prey to the conspiracy theories around Judaism...but like...is it not possible to say that both hamas and the IDF do terrible things? And that innocent civilians are caught in between, with the usual bad faith reasons of "they were hiding hamas members" aka the exact same rhetoric that Russia used when accused of something terrible that they obviously did, deflection and formal outrage. The very fact I feel I have to tread so carefully with my comment is an indication that something is seriously, seriously wrong. I don't live in China, I don't live in Russia. But when speaking about Israel or the IDF, I feel like I do. |
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| ▲ | bhouston 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | > is it not possible to say that both hamas and the IDF do terrible things? I agree. Hamas and IDF do terrible things - the ICC issued warrants for the leaders of both. This is why an external party has to impose a solution and it should involve in my opinion separation (two-states.) Both parties are radicalized at least for now and need to be separated and allowed to manage their own affairs while allowing the other to exist. | | |
| ▲ | nailer 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Two states solutions have been offered to and rejected by Arab nationalists since Palestine was partitioned in 1947. HN being HN: this is a verifiable fact at any source you name. | | |
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| ▲ | igonvalue 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I'm wondering about the broader context here: Are stories like this rare or common? Are they increasing or decreasing in frequency? |
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| ▲ | igonvalue 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | kakacik 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
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| ▲ | cogman10 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > this is war 101 The west bank isn't at war with Israel. There wasn't some conflict or event that has justified these actions. I wish people understood this better. Even if you could manage to justify what's happening in gaza as "this is war", Gaza and the west bank are separate entities with separate governments. The west bank, in particular, is more like an Indian reservation in the US, with the Israeli government effectively exercising supremacy over all aspects of the government. Theoretically, the IDF is supposed to be the police force for the west bank. That's why they occupy it. | | |
| ▲ | xdennis 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | cogman10 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Wrong. Gaza and the West Bank aren't countries, they have no autonomy. Palestine isn't a country, it was once where Israel now sits, but hasn't been since the 40s. Palestinians are people, must like Jews are people. Palestinians are the indigenous inhabitants of Israel, the west bank, and gaza. Much like all Jews aren't responsible for the actions of Israel, All Palestinians aren't responsible for the actions of Hamas. Even the residence of Gaza. | | |
| ▲ | verbify 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Palestine isn't a country, it was once where Israel now sits, but hasn't been since the 40s. In the 40s, the British were ruling Palestine as a mandate, I wouldn’t really call that a country. | | |
| ▲ | cogman10 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Fair enough. I should say that it was the name of the region as they've basically not been fully autonomous in modern history. But prior to the establishment of Israel, they were basically just left alone by both the Ottomans and Brittan. |
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| ▲ | LeoNatan25 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
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| ▲ | noah_buddy 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > You can't then say that the West Bank is not responsible for what the rest of Palestine did. Collective punishment is a war crime. |
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| ▲ | xg15 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > this is war 101, every day. Except this situation has been going on like this for 60 years - with Israel, or the other western states having absolutely no plans to change anything about it (except making it even worse). | |
| ▲ | intexpress 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I don’t think anyone is going to forget about this | |
| ▲ | Qiu_Zhanxuan 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | completely deranged way of thinking that calls for a hard self-reflection. | |
| ▲ | kreyenborgi 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > this is war 101 genocide 101 |
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