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wk_end 6 hours ago

The situation in the West Bank (and similar forces are at play in Gaza, too) remind me of what's wrong with American policing, at a far more extreme scale.

The people charged with enforcing the peace deploy lethal force with near impunity at the slightest "provocation" (a child throwing a stone, a car driving too fast); I wouldn't be surprised if IDF forces deployed to the West Bank are trained much like American police officers are, to operate in constant fear and perceive absolutely everything and everyone as a deadly threat to be neutralized. The soldiers themselves are raised in a culture with deeply racist undertones, making them all too ready to view any random Palestinian as a terrorist. Meanwhile, the bureaucracy that should be overseeing them works only to protect them. It's no surprise that things like this happen as often as they do.

Reform in the US is imaginable, I can and do believe, but it's much harder for me to imagine it in Israel - even much of the so-called left in Israel is too radicalized against Palestinians after 100 years of conflict, the Second Intifada, and October 7.

ryandrake 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

That's a huge problem (immediate, unjustified escalation to violence becoming the norm) and:

> The main justification floated is that the car was "going fast" and thus made the undercover Israeli soldiers feel unsafe.

"I feel unsafe" has become the catch-all excuse for everything in the recent decade. It's used to justify everything from Karen complaining about someone's behavior in public to people calling the cops on someone for looking at them wrong, to making a scene on a public bus, to police officers jumping the gun and escalating to violence, all the way to war crimes. When did "I feel unsafe" become this ultimate i-can-do-anything-and-avoid-responsibility card? Like a magic spell that you can cast before doing something crazy. It's like that old "He's coming right for us" South Park joke, but instead of being a joke it has real life and death consequences.

xnyan 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Most people will never interact with a cop on duty outside of a speeding ticket or some other mundane encounter. A major chuck of what many people think about police comes from TV and movies.

It's impossible to overstate the influence of Dragnet (the OG police procedural from the early 50s) alone on the widely held idea that police are mostly heroic and good. Police procedurals are still extremely popular, they overwhelmingly portray law enforcement in an extremely idealized way.

There are exceptions (The Wire, The Shield), but they are noteworty in that police are not heroes.

C6JEsQeQa5fCjE 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I wouldn't be surprised if IDF forces deployed to the West Bank are trained much like American police officers are

IDF trains them.

https://www.amnestyusa.org/blog/with-whom-are-many-u-s-polic...

wk_end 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

That checks out. Although the history of "Warrior Policing" in the US predates this (going back to the 60s) and extends far beyond IDF training programs:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrior_policing

apical_dendrite 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

David Simon and others have written extensively for decades about the problems with the Baltimore Police Department, and other departments around the country. They trace these problems back to the war on drugs and other purely American factors.

The Amnesty article that you're citing is a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. The Baltimore Police Department did not need to learn about constitutional violations from the Israelis.

pstuart 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Everybody thinks the War on Drugs is about "keeping people safe". It never was, it was always about manufacturing a tool to oppress "others".

nielsbot 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

You can add The War On Terror to that list.

Where do think US police get all their fun toys to play with?

"How 9/11 helped to militarize American law enforcement": https://www.brookings.edu/articles/how-9-11-helped-to-milita...

pstuart 35 minutes ago | parent [-]

Yep. But the War on Drugs has been around much longer and is more relevant to people's day to day lives. And people buy into it. I hear this all the time "Sure, weed should be legal, and cocaine too because I like to party now and then, but the 'hard stuff' should definitely be illegal because its dangerous".

To make matters worse -- people think that those who advocate against it are doing so because they want to do drugs (and some may) but it's a civil liberties issue and is the foundation for the militarization of the police.

convolvatron 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

from that lens it was almost necessary to invent a pretense since people got all huffy about overt oppression at the end of Jim Crow.

mupuff1234 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Pretty sure police brutality was invented way before Israel existed.

juliusceasar 5 hours ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

bhouston 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The strong/dominant beating up in the weak is as old as time unfortunately. One doesn’t always have to make that particular comparison as it is a sensitive one. You can point to any major instance of colonization (by whomever) to see similar polices and in the past it was even more brutal because there were no reporters (eg Belgium Free Congo had an estimated population decline of 75% https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrocities_in_the_Congo_Free_S... .)

myth_drannon 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Oh, they did for sure. They learned at any opportunity Europeans or others will discard them, physically or otherwise. Your kind also learned from Goebbels, Palestinian movement's greatest teacher.

6510 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

In the 1200's British colonizers invaded Ireland, in 1920's the same colonial oppressors were moved to Palestine. Arthur Balfour was Chief Secretary for Ireland from 1887 till 1891 and it was his idea to create a Jewish state in Palestine.

Ship out the jews, radicalize the natives, have the two of them fight for hundreds of years. It couldn't be a more British idea.

wk_end 2 hours ago | parent [-]

It was absolutely not Balfour's idea to create a Jewish state in Palestine.

The Balfour declaration was from 1917. But the Zionists first started to move to the region in the hopes of establishing a homeland in the early 1880s, based on their belief that a Jewish state (anywhere; Argentina was another candidate) was necessary for their long-term survival due to the long history of antisemitism in Europe - getting worse by the day - and their (correct, it turned out!) fear that it could reach cataclysmic levels. It was very much their idea.

Balfour's declaration, which wasn't official law, didn't single-handedly dictate British policy for the next 30 years and 14 governments; people vastly overstate the importance of it. Britain did not "ship out" the Jews - most Jewish migrants to Mandatory Palestine were from Eastern Europe and came to Mandatory Palestine very much of their own volition, without British help. And in 1939 - just in time for the Holocaust - Britain cracked down hard on Jewish migration to Mandatory Palestine to try to quell Arab unrest; Jews continued to migrate illegally anyway, despite what the British wanted.

Of course Britain had its role in contributing to the violence in the region, but to characterize Israel as a British colony is to deny Jews agency. It is curiously antisemitic, even as it (implicitly) absolves them of some of the blame for how things have gone.

dustractor 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I wouldn't be surprised if IDF forces deployed to the West Bank are trained much like American police officers are'

American police officers ARE trained much like IDF forces. By the IDF! https://jinsa.org/jinsa_program/homeland-security-program/

6510 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Their media is non stop hammering the citizen with scary Muslim stories since the beginning of the country, every day since birth, with a density as if nothing else ever happened in the world.

Deprogramming is possible. Just tell them it is impossible to argue it was their own idea. They know how hard it was rubbed in their face.

DiogenesKynikos 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The IDF is a foreign occupation army, not the police.

At least in the US, the police come from much the same communities as they patrol, and there's some sort of democratic accountability. Don't like the police? You can vote for local government candidates who will implement reforms.

In the West Bank, Palestinians are subject to arbitrary violence at the hands of foreign soldiers. The IDF is not there to protect Palestinians. It's there to protect the Israeli settlers who are taking Palestinian land. If Palestinians don't like how the IDF behaves, tough luck. Palestinians can't vote in Israeli elections, so they have zero say in the government that exercises ultimate authority over their lives.

This is a fundamentally different situation from policing in the US.

dmitrygr 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> at the slightest "provocation"

Is that it though? When one has historical reasons to expect being attacked, one must be vigilant and one must be trigger-ready.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_at...

wk_end 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Yes, American police use these kinds of justifications when innocent people are killed too. It's absurd (watch Surviving Edged Weapons [0] some time) either way.

The reality is, if you have soldiers mowing down children throwing rocks, mowing down families driving around, mowing down kids playing football, mowing down toddlers in their bedrooms, mowing down hundreds of people each year [1], you've over-indexed on vigilance and under-indexed on the value of human life. You're not trigger-ready, you're trigger-happy.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6jhru-EqDA

[1] https://www.un.org/unispal/document/ohchr-press-release-17oc...

philistine 30 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

When RLM enlightens on the police brutality roiling America, and entertains!

dzhiurgis 37 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

> under-indexed on the value of human life

That's already given, by the other party who is hosting the game.

If the players don't value my life, I'm not going to value theirs. Pretty simple.

jmward01 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

A professional looks at and understands the situation as it exists now. A professional is trained to not get into situations where fear controls them. Your argument is a compelling one that either these are not professionals or that they are professionals and are doing this on purpose. The stats today clearly show the massive difference between danger to Israeli personnel and Palestinians. Israel at this point has either failed to train professional forces that seek to deescalate and avoid dangerous situations or is training forces to find situations they can claim fear as a justification for murder. So, pick. They are either amateurs at which point it is a deplorable to put amateurs with this much force near a vulnerable population or they are professionals trained to do exactly this, find ways to kill a vulnerable population and claim self defense.

dmitrygr 3 hours ago | parent [-]

A professional is not obligated to risk death (or die) on the off chance that you are belligerent but not actually dangerous. Do not ever act belligerent around law enforcement, in any country, especially in a country where they LITERALLY EXPECT to be ambushed by people who act like that, because such people have been doing it for decades.

Be calm. Do not run. Talk clearly. Keep your hands visible. Did your parents not teach you?

ozlikethewizard 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

So what exactly did the 8 year old boy sat in the back of his parents car do wrong?

dmitrygr 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Nothing, and that is very bad luck. My heart breaks for the kid.

But unless you are suggesting that laws should be not applied to those with kids, I am not sure why that matters? What do you suggest? I cannot wait for "kid" to be a number one accessory to bring to a heist then.

Dusseldorf 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Again, what law was broken here? By anyone in the car? I'm struggling to understand how this wasn't outright execution.

jmward01 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'll repeat the bit about professionals being trained to avoid and deescalate. That is the point. I think the details of this, and many similar incidents clearly show a lack of attempt to deescalate or avoid. That was the clear argument I made in my post and am re-emphasizing now. This clear trend shows either malicious intent by professionals or amateurs put in a situation they shouldn't have been allowed near and those above them should be held accountable for it.

mindslight 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Or in democratic societies we can insist that our "public servants" actually serve the public interest of law and order rather than merely using it as a pretext to be able to commit their own violent crimes.

Your rationalization is nothing more than a product of a failed society. Bringing it up as pragmatic advice might make sense, although still not for this incident where the "offense" seems to have been merely stopping a car on the side of the road. But invoking it as some universal value of "what ought" is a pure crab bucket mentality.

DiogenesKynikos 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The IDF is not law enforcement. It's a foreign army. It treats Palestinians with utter contempt and has no problem with killing them. Its job is to protect Israeli settlers who are taking Palestinian land and to prevent the Palestinians from resisting Israeli rule.

Comparing the IDF to law enforcement in a democratic country is not relevant.