| ▲ | The only moat left is money?(elliotbonneville.com) |
| 101 points by elliotbnvl 2 hours ago | 132 comments |
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| ▲ | autoconfig an hour ago | parent | next [-] |
| > When creation was hard, skill was the differentiator: you had to actually be good to make something worth showing. Now the barrier is near zero, so you need reach. Reach costs money or it costs years. Probably both. Creation has progressively been getting easier since the invention of the computer, it is not a new phenomena. This naturally pushes the boundary on what needs to be delivered in order to find paying customers. In other words, creation still is "hard" if you want to succeed. > I launched something last week. 14 people signed up — no ads, just a couple of posts. 14 real people who didn't have to. That number is tiny and it felt like something. Then I sat down to think about what it would take to grow it and I couldn't look at that math for very long. This applies to 90+% of founders that have ever launched something. The hard part comes from continuing to push forward when you experience this (which you will over and over). It sounds like the author expects that what was hard suddenly should be easy. |
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| ▲ | Waterluvian 6 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Something I've noticed a lot with Twitch streamers and YouTubers is that many of them want the outcome and are prepared to do the work, but want some sort of guarantee of success. It's very difficult to really sell to people that you will work very hard for a while and there's absolutely no promise that you'll ever have more than 14 subscribers. That's simply the core risk of entrepreneurship. | |
| ▲ | apsurd 31 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | sounds like the author is discovering business. I didn't read the article, but yes, going from 0-1,1-10 is really hard and really rewarding. And it got easier with the Internet. Going from 10-1k and 1k-1M is a different ball-game. Always was. The dream of running my own company got me to learn programming. 20 years later I'm an employee at a company still dreaming of running my own company. But now I can realize that reality and dreams are not the same and that's ok. As in, I probably really don't want to run my own company. We'll see =P | |
| ▲ | tensor 15 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Creation has progressively been getting easier since the invention of the computer, it is not a new phenomena. This naturally pushes the boundary on what needs to be delivered in order to find paying customers. In other words, creation still is "hard" if you want to succeed. Only for developers. Outside of software creation is still hard. Global markets giving access to excellent manufacturing sure does help, but software is a bubble. |
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| ▲ | showerst 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This AI boom is just a hyper-version of previous tech booms (web 1.0, VC, crypto, etc). You have an enormous number of people who just want to get in and build something, but the products they are pumping out don't serve anyone's need or solve anyone's problem. The moat isn't money for out-marketing your idea that 750 other people are building, it's having a good idea that solves a problem that nobody else is solving well. |
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| ▲ | neom an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | I worked during the digital revolution in film, I've told the story a zillion times on HN but basically, I went through the first pure digital film program in Canada, by the time I graduated 70% had dropped out, as far as I know I'm the only one who made a proper go at it, and even then when my startup was taking off, a new hot shot would show up every month and be gone the next when they got bored or frustrated when nobody thought they were special. Tools are tools. | |
| ▲ | boplicity 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > the products they are pumping out don't serve anyone's need or solve anyone's problem. This isn't true though. Yes, there are too many products being build that don't serve anyone's needs or solve anyone's problems. However, many of the AI products do solve problems and serve needs. You're right though, to compare this to other booms, which also had the same problem. This is very much a "hyper" version, which is pretty incredible to be in the middle of. | | |
| ▲ | showerst an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | I don't mean that _all_ AI built stuff is useless, just that the number of products where 'marketing budget' is the bottleneck is dwarfed by the number of tools that aren't that special in the first place. If you have a product that: 1. Solves a real problem people would pay for 2. Is not trivially replicable by your potential customers or competitors 3. Does not have a natural discovery mechanism by potential customers Then you need the marketing budget. That is not most people's problem. | |
| ▲ | PaulDavisThe1st an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | > However, many of the AI products do solve problems and serve needs. Every solution to a problem comes with its own costs. It is entirely possible that most solutions that are rooted in modern computing technology have actual or perceived costs that exceed the value of "solving the problem". The problems that most people have that they really want to solve are not addressable by AI, or computers, or software. |
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| ▲ | clickety_clack an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This seems to me like the few booms I’ve seen before. Absolutely crazy valuations with very little behind them, massive hype, everyone’s unemployed uncle suddenly becoming a shallow expert. It’s probably going to end the same way too, once the upward momentum dissipates and things start to retreat to “fundamentals”, we’ll find out that there were a lot fewer solid points in the market than we were all told to expect, so the fundamentals are actually pretty far down. After 5 to 10 years of regrouping, a more mature and solid version will come about and become such a normal part of life we barely even remember what it was like without it. | | |
| ▲ | steveBK123 16 minutes ago | parent [-] | | We are well on our way to the popping of inflated expectations. Currently people are taking AI hype too seriously and extrapolating its success out in such a way as to discount the value of other businesses. Example - last week a bunch of trucking stocks crashed 10-20% because a $6M company that pivoted from Karaoke to AI demoed something. This is just insane. Sure, if say Waymo is pivoting into commercial trucking.. maybe. But people are basically shorting minutemaid lemonade because their neighbors kids opened up a lemonade stand. Demos are easy, products are hard. |
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| ▲ | koolba an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > The moat isn't money for out-marketing your idea that 750 other people are building, it's having a good idea that solves a problem that nobody else is solving well. An idea is not a moat. Execution is only a moat if being nimble is part of the ongoing offering. | |
| ▲ | billconan 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | how to prevent others from building a copycat using ai? | | |
| ▲ | caminante an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | The discussion here is going sideways, and I blame the underwhelming blog post. Having money is NOT an economic moat-- i.e., a durable, structural competitive advantage. He overlooks broader, true definition of moat attributes like labor supply, infrastructure, PP&E, brand, network, natural monopolies, switching costs, regulation. These don't go away with commoditized CRUD apps. And quoting someone with decades of experience implying that things are hard now and innovation didn't turn over industries in the last 25+ years is a joke. | | |
| ▲ | RGamma 26 minutes ago | parent [-] | | The more I think about it the more brainrot the article really is. As if all problems are solved and pumping out soulless shovelware companies is worth anything. It really is "just one more app" all over again. |
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| ▲ | maeln 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Knowledge ? For b2c it might be more difficult, but in b2b, understanding your customer and their specifics issue and developing something made for them is one of the big challenge. Being able to spit out code for free is useless if you don't know what and who you are making the code for. | |
| ▲ | ativzzz 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The same way you prevented this previously. Copying successful products is nothing new, AI just makes it easier. Marketing, lawyers, good customer support, creating relationships with customers. | |
| ▲ | Bnjoroge an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You cant. You can only focus on building your own product and making it durable and just much better | |
| ▲ | g947o 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You don't. | |
| ▲ | rvz 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Let's just say, building software alone is not enough. | |
| ▲ | Daishiman 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | You work on niches that have very specific requirements that you can only derive from having a good relationship with customers and so you attend to those needs faster than competitors who are out of the loop. | | |
| ▲ | billconan an hour ago | parent [-] | | > you attend to those needs faster than competitors I wonder if this type of hustling can be called moat building? |
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| ▲ | RC_ITR 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's like that FT chart claiming that the rapid rise in iOS apps is evidence of an AI-fueled productivity boom. I always ask people, in the past year, how many AI-coded apps have you 1) downloaded 2) paid for? | | |
| ▲ | sarchertech an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | In addition to that, what they don’t mention is that: 1. Other app stores like Google Play and Steam haven’t seen this rapid rise. 2. There are thousands maybe tens of thousands of apps that are just wrappers calling OpenAI APIs or similar low effort AI apps making up a large percentage of this increase. 3. There are billions of dollars pouring into AI startups and many of them launch an iOS app. | |
| ▲ | disgruntledphd2 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | > It's like that FT chart claiming that the rapid rise in iOS apps is evidence of an AI-fueled productivity boom. I mean, there is evidence for some change. Personally, I'm sceptical of what this will amount to, but prior to EOY 2025, there really wasn't any evidence for an app/service boom, and now there's weak evidence, which is better than none. |
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| ▲ | Bnjoroge an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Eh, there's some truth it both. The truth is somewhere in the middle of the spectrum. Distribution absolutely matters, often times even more than the product. And vice versa |
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| ▲ | e10jc 5 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I really like this article, particularly the part about the gravitational threshold. My overall thoughts about launching products is that there will just be more products with smaller audiences, similar to how streaming broke down linear cable. As a software entrepreneur, this means going wider not deeper. Use your human skills to build relationships with people who have that gravitational pull. If you don’t have those relationships, go create them IRL. For context, I’ve founded and sold a social network to AOL, helped raise over $100m, and had 2 other acquisitions. |
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| ▲ | cyrusradfar 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I appreciate the conversation the post initiates. Nevertheless, by counter-example -- OpenClaw's creator was just recruited by people with more capital than countries. If they could "re-produce" it with their capital, they would've preferred that. Whatever he has, is still a moat. What that is, is debatable. Is it brand? Is it his creativity? Is it trust/autheticity? A vision? Ownership of a repo or leadership of that community? All those are perceived moats (or risks) by these folks that tried to scoop him up. |
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| ▲ | r_lee 22 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | like another guy said, it's rhe marketing thing. the open claw thing became a hit sensation in the news etc. and now OpenAI can claim it as theirs. they have infinite money anyways, so might as well buy stuff like that I guess. | |
| ▲ | jerf an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Luck has always been a solution to reach. It doesn't scale, though. In the case of OpenClaw I think you're looking at a fairly pure iteration of luck there, too. It isn't even a case of "I prepared for years until luck finally knocked" or any variant like that. It was just luck. If that is the only counterexample I'd say it doesn't disprove the point, if anything it just strengthens it. Nobody can build a business plan based on "I plan to be as lucky as OpenClaw". | |
| ▲ | plagiarist an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | It was 100% the brand. The creativity may be a bonus for OpenAI. They saw a shitload of people buying Mac Minis specifically for this software. I don't find a single counter-example compelling. I guess as evidence that "only moat" is somewhat hyperbolic? But to counter the counter-example, what would have happened if he did not join? OpenAI can just write and release their own version. They can then do the typical loss-leader and advertising tricks that OpenClaw cannot. The "simply write and release" is what used to be a barrier. | | |
| ▲ | tencentshill 13 minutes ago | parent [-] | | He was competition. They can't have people running their own self-hosted LLMs on their own hardware, and realizing it AI be useful without a subscription! |
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| ▲ | tquinn35 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I disagree. I think creativity is still a valid moat. You still need to build good products. Its like a restaurant anyone with some money can open a restaurant but you need to has the creativity to make a good one. |
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| ▲ | giancarlostoro 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | You don't need a ton of creativity for a good restaurant if you have good staff, and upkeep. I'll take a boring well maintained and staffed restaurant over an overpriced "creative" restaurant where the waiters are terrible and the chef is even worse. | | |
| ▲ | trashb 35 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | This assumes the market is not oversaturated. It does not work if there are only a couple of people trying to find a place to eat in a street with 30 similar well maintained and staffed restaurants. Correct me if I'm wrong but, you may be thinking of restaurants where their defining factor is "having a very creative atmosphere", which will not suit all customers. However it is a differentiating factor which will serve a big audience that is under served in a location filled with "boring well maintained and staffed restaurant". In my view the creativity comes in in finding solutions to a problem, in a oversaturated market the problem may be "how do I persuade customers to come to my restaurant instead of my competitor?". And following that question may be (in the restaurant example) "what can I offer that is under served in the current market?" The solution to that may be "a biker cafe" or "an overpriced "creative" restaurant where the waiters are terrible and the chef is even worse" (perhaps even rude on purpose). Additionally I assume you want the restaurant to grow. If you want the restaurant to just survive the bar is lower and you may be able to do that by doing the same everyone else is doing as long as you meet the minimum. | |
| ▲ | pixl97 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | And you'll still probably get beat by a restaurant in a better location or one with better marketing | | |
| ▲ | giancarlostoro an hour ago | parent [-] | | I can't remember the last time I ate anywhere because of an ad. I eat out a lot too, used to uber eats nearly every single day. I wont reorder at places that mess up my order, but consistent quality I reward. Chick Fil A gives me the best service out of any fast-food restaurant, so they earn my repeat business. | | |
| ▲ | boplicity an hour ago | parent [-] | | People almost never admit it when they respond to an ad. Even when they very clearly do. Don't underestimate the effectiveness of advertising, or its ability to influence you. | | |
| ▲ | giancarlostoro 31 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I distinctively remember when ads have worked on me to buy something. Sometimes I blacklist a brand if an ad is deceptive and makes me click on something, but I don't watch TV much if at all, and the streaming services I do use I pay to have ads removed. |
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| ▲ | CGMthrowaway 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The only moat that can beat the money moat, in fact Money (better thought of as credit, since we are talking about fiat here) is an attractor so much as it can stand for or purchase productive energy. If that fails (central bank failure, currency failure, government failure), creativity takes its place | |
| ▲ | sowbug an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Creativity is a kind of labor. Like all labor, it never earns pay more than once. | |
| ▲ | trashb an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think creativity is still a valid moat. And I think creativity will become a very important moat! I am a firm believer of "limitation breeds creativity" and being able to make what you want with immediate result will lead to less diverse solutions. In a world of in-diverse products you need more creativity to stand out as it will become harder to conceive of something "outside of the box". Similarly to how anyone can basically create any image they desire in Photoshop (with some limited training). Leading to a lot of images of a similar style instead of a lot of different styles (ai slop anyone?). This is because between the idea and the result the roadblocks are reduced, the process is smooth (tools aim for 1:1 conversion). In the creative process these roadblocks are usually where you will find interesting new directions or ideas. And very often the original idea was not that interesting to begin with (and perhaps not as original as we would like to believe). | |
| ▲ | HPsquared 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | What's to stop someone copying your creations? Creativity is the reason a moat is needed. | |
| ▲ | AstroBen 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Your creativity will be copied within days | | | |
| ▲ | gorgoiler 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The claude.ai web UI has a bug right now. If you inline some code by typing an opening backtick then the closing backtick swallows your space, puts the next letter you type after the code, then everything else back inside the code span. One day we might be able to write software without bugs. That day is clearly not here yet. (Firefox in Linux if anyone wants to repro. Can’t file a bug as it’s a closed, proprietary piece of software.) | |
| ▲ | 52-6F-62 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I think, in time, it will be shown to be the real, persistent differentiator. And far more valuable. But it's also not a moat in the same way. It's accessible to everyone, but you have to actually disregard the parts of yourself that want to drive hard in some direction just for money or power or external validation. From the look of things right now, it may take some pain before that really gets to shine. |
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| ▲ | speak_plainly an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| In Republic I, Socrates distinguishes the art of medicine from the art of wage-earning. One is about the work; the other is about getting paid. Historically, the craft was the primary goal, and the money was an extrinsic side effect. Today, the money-making side has staged a hostile takeover. The attention conundrum is just a symptom of a deeper financialization. Multi-billion dollar companies have turned profit into a data-driven science – analytically turning the screws on every script, product, and interaction to optimize for extraction. This is the destruction of the art of making things. The real issue is that you cannot compete with an entity that has no respect for the art. When a platform replaces the integrity of the work with the logic of a metric, the independent creator is no longer an underdog – they are functionally excluded. You can be the best at any art, but in a system that prioritizes sheer extraction over excellence, your craft effectively ceases to exist. |
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| ▲ | arionhardison 3 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I think the patients, desire and will to do real customer-development is (or could be a moat). The desire to "create" something is very different than the desire to solve a real problem for a market that you understand. Other than this, distribution can be a moat; usually if you have abdicated the aforementioned but often no matter how much customer-development you do distribution can be a barrier to entry for competitors, hence a moat. |
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| ▲ | derf_ 32 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The way to tell if a business has a moat that I once learned was, "If someone gave you a billion dollars, could you go compete with that business and have a reasonable chance of winning." The numbers are bigger now, but I think the principle remains the same: money cannot be a moat. |
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| ▲ | random3 24 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | A moat is around something that exists, meant to protect it. You're describing something else, not a moat with your example. OP used moat correctly, creative effort around existing earned skill, brand, etc. To answer your question. Yes to a player already in a market with lack of funding, a billion dolars could be the necessary moat to win. Money was, is and likely will be a moat for a while. But as a proxy, it may not be enough as a moat. Scarce resources may require more than money— e.g. IP classes or, if you're China, ASML machines. | |
| ▲ | shimman 22 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | I can't think of a single software company that has a moat then. Good rubric to have and makes sense. |
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| ▲ | clay_the_ripper 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Doing hard things has always been, and always will be, hard. Building a static HTML page was “hard” in the 90’s. It took actual skills. Any piece that gets easier automatically opens up more hard avenues to tackle. no one is willing to pay you for easy. |
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| ▲ | moregrist 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I was there in the 90s. I built a few bad static HTML pages. It wasn’t hard. There are lots of stories of non-CS / non-technical people making stuff from the dotcom era. Making a dynamic page was harder. Integrating with a payment system was almost magical; there’s a reason PayPal became big. But what was truly hard, and continues to be hard, is building a page, either static or dynamic, that people actually want to visit. | |
| ▲ | elliotbnvl 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Ahhh that lines up with a thought I had recently: you get out of life what you put into it. I am beginning to believe that there's some kind of metaphysical rule here that is true everywhere, all the time. So maybe the solution is: find the hardest stuff to do and do the crap out of it. | | |
| ▲ | AntiDyatlov 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I really don't think that's true, you can put a lot of effort into a wrongheaded strategy, netting you no or bad results. Conversely, a good strategy can get you good results without that much effort. | |
| ▲ | elliotbnvl 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The followup thought / concern that occurs: what if the number of hard things is going down? | | |
| ▲ | Barbing an hour ago | parent [-] | | I would have imagined it's going up while the percentage of people who are capable of doing the hardest things is going down. Not that I know much of anything. | | |
| ▲ | pixl97 an hour ago | parent [-] | | We probably need to split apart things like "hard" and "both hard and useful". Just because you're doing something hard, doesn't mean anyone wants it. Just because you're doing something useful doesn't mean you're going to get paid much for it. Just because something is hard and useful doesn't mean someone is going to pay you for the cost of the effort. |
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| ▲ | danny_codes 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The entire pitch of LLM companies is that that’s not true. The LLM does the hard work, and you pay the LLM company for the tokens. So the gate is just, can you afford enough tokens. Not saying that’s what will happen in reality, but that is the marketing pitch |
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| ▲ | SilverElfin a few seconds ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I think this was already true but it is becoming a lot more obvious now and the effects of this problem are going to affect a lot more people as we see mass white collar worker unemployment. Some people think with lower costs to make software more software is possible. But you can try to get started building a product only to see an improved AI agent build out your idea cheaply, or a bigger company use capital to copy you and enter the same market, and so on. Also, individuals who are richer can take more risks - the loss of money is not existential for them. The only real fix is incredibly heavy taxation of income and wealth for the ultra rich individuals and ultra large companies. That is what will break through the money moat and create fair competition. |
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| ▲ | lp4v4n 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| There is an old word for it: saturation. And let's be honest that's not a new thing. It's been already a long time since you had a revolutionary idea in the shower only to google it(or use an LLM nowadays) and discover that there are already eight different apps that do what you were thinking. |
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| ▲ | runako 34 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This is certainly one conclusion that could be drawn. Another conclusion could be that as building software gets easier (like it did for ex in the 90s and again in the 2010s), opportunities are created for new entrants to displace Bad Old Software. Those expensive Enterprise apps that everybody hates? Are absolutely begging to be replaced by something better for half the money. We still live in a world where most individuals own more compute power than most universities did in the '80s, yet the only sign of automation is useless push notifications. Data behind one pane of glass can't easily be moved to data behind a second pane of glass. Simple stuff like "move my Instacart shopping cart to Costco.com same-day" is a manual affair. This is a subset of the general problem that more apps has resulted in more data silos that are generally isolated, without APIs, without automation. There are zillions of problems out there for which people will pay money, but money chases the same 4-5 problems at a time. Just work on one of the other ones. |
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| ▲ | abeppu an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I think the other moat is access to non-public data. If you can train, measure, or make decisions based on specific data that the vibecoder trying to clone you can't get, you can keep ahead. |
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| ▲ | advisedwang 26 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| If someone has a problem they need solved: * Attention span won't stop them recognizing a solution * Numerous solutions won't stop them adopting one * That the developer put little effort into building that solution won't put them off. The real answer is of course that there's a lot of stuff that being built that doesn't solve people's problems people have, either because it targets a problem that doesn't really exist or because it fails to solve the problem it does target. |
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| ▲ | AstroBen 8 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Of course people will buy software.. but the 80% margins we had of yesteryear won't be there The result of the barrier to entry being erased is that prices will also be driven to 0 as products are commoditized It's hardly worth going into a market when you're 1 of 1000 and profit margins are at 3% Any creativity you add, new spin you put on it, new features, innovation.. all that has negligible cost to copy I don't think we're quite there yet, but this is where it's quickly heading |
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| ▲ | ossa-ma 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > The value of human thinking is going down. Wrong. Creativity, innovation, intuition, taste - all forms of thought solely inherent to humans, all going up. |
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| ▲ | elliotbnvl 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I used to agree completely, and a part of me still does. But the part of me that's scared that this isn't true is getting louder and louder. I'm a novelist and software engineer. The value of one of those skills is trending to zero. I'm not seeing much to suggest, in the face of the hockey stick of doom, that the other isn't. | | |
| ▲ | trashb 22 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | If anyone can create what they want won't coming up with good ideas be the value, therefore the creativity will become more important? I don't know what you wrote and I agree that it is very sad that the skill of writing is very undervalued at this moment. But I think that trend is not new and in reality not created by AI (just accelerated). But I think value of writing was never in the writing itself but the knowledge and ideas behind the writing. Because mechanics of writing sped up (handwritten, typewriter, word processor). But the process of writing a novel did not speed up significantly as the bottleneck is the ideas and iteration on those ideas not the delivery of the output. Similar to how programming is more then typing code. So I think the real crisis right now is that people equate typing speed with programming speed (or writing speed) and due to advances in the former undervalue the later. Sadly the reality is that it won't pay for the bills anymore. Perhaps in a while people will realize how important the quality of ideas (and the iteration to arrive at them) is. | |
| ▲ | 52-6F-62 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Depends. Are you still measuring value in dollars? | | |
| ▲ | elliotbnvl 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I got mouths to feed, so... yeah. | | |
| ▲ | 52-6F-62 26 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Indeed. But the line of discussion was about the value of human thought. | | |
| ▲ | ativzzz 4 minutes ago | parent [-] | | If our human thoughts can't be translated to food and shelter, then we'll pick up guns and go steal the food and shelter from someone else. |
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| ▲ | danny_codes 31 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | why? We have no real evidence to support this claim. |
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| ▲ | thornewolf 39 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| For the comment from "Is Show HN dead? No, but it's drowning", the article author editorializes "One of the great benefits of AI tools, is they allow anyone to build stuff... even if they have no ideas or knowledge. One of the great drawbacks of AI tools, is they allow anyone to build stuff... even if they have no ideas or knowledge." into "One of the great benefits of AI tools is they allow anyone to build stuff, even if they have no ideas or knowledge. One of the great drawbacks is they allow anyone to build stuff." which removes the rhetorical effectiveness of the comment (and also breaks the promise of a quotation). I recommend that OP represents the source exactly. ____ I now see that this article contains multiple GPT-isms |
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| ▲ | benatkin 30 minutes ago | parent [-] | | It would be better if the article editorialized it thusly: > One of the great benefits as well as one of the great drawbacks of AI tools, is they allow anyone to build stuff... even if they have no ideas or knowledge. I'd paraphrase it with "said that" since the quotations indeed present as though verbatim. |
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| ▲ | brandav 22 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Utilizing connections with influencers seems to be the most effective way to break through the noise now. Ironically, that's how it used to be before marketing and product development became so accessible. |
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| ▲ | charcircuit 37 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Money is not a moat since you can buy money (debt) or sell equity for money. >The thing I launched last week is called Kith — a paid, invite-only social network Social networks already is an existing competitive space and making it both paid and invite only obviously will hurt its adoption. I wouldn't have been surprised if this failed to get users even if it was free and even if this was preLLM. A brand new social network doesn't truly solve users problems. |
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| ▲ | dzink 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The well is drying. You have less money available for hustling and less small players with money. With layoffs happening everywhere you have more people with ambition and time on their hands, but less of them can afford big expenses or major risks. The hype machine currently pushing for agents is selling agents ability to do automated marketing. However the bigger companies know better than to create giant security holes and the small players are either not technically skilled, or will balk at the huge per-use fees for the good models, or will be drowned out because of low quality cheap model output. |
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| ▲ | ge96 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I had this conspiratorial thought, would a model really just spit out some money-making scheme, or would it be blocked. Made me think to run the model myself on my own GPUs but still a black box, at least you control your prompts/data flow locally. |
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| ▲ | zhyder an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| "the value of a human eyeball" / attention is and always will be the limited resource. But I wish the way the economy worked wasn't that attention is sold for money, which makes money the moat, and sets a floor on how low-priced things can get for customers too. Is this really the best the economy can do? Or is it possible to have a fair LLM-based search engine that matches customer need description with stated product descriptions from providers (while weighing customer reviews, etc)? |
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| ▲ | hoppp 25 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This post was an Ad also for his paid social network, it did reach me because the message resonates with me as a builder but I don't want to sign up to a social network So the attention was there but not the conversion. |
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| ▲ | seizethecheese 10 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The definition of a moat is what cannot be bought. |
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| ▲ | sd9 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Not discrediting the post, which I think is worthwhile and generally pointing at the right thing, however: > I launched something last week. 14 people signed up — no ads, just a couple of posts. 14 real people who didn't have to. That number is tiny and it felt like something. Then I sat down to think about what it would take to grow it and I couldn't look at that math for very long. They launched a paid social network, with no content available without joining a waitlist. This would not have worked 20 years ago either. Bootstrapping the content for a _free_ social network is incredibly hard. But a paid social network where the only differentiating factor is that users are humans, and there is no activity in the network? Not going to work. |
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| ▲ | fuzzfactor an hour ago | parent [-] | | >as someone who's been building for the internet for 25+ years, this is the first time that i've ever felt like it's very difficult to make money building new things. I understand it was already the trend 25 years ago, but way before that you really weren't expected to be able to make money building things for the internet. The internet itself was simply not designed for that to begin with. Building things where the internet was an element was already getting bad enough. The force from within to return to "normal" baseline may yield, but probably never go away. >The people winning mostly had a head start. Or they have money. Usually both. As said every millennium since institutions and finance have existed. >Show HN, the one place the internet was supposed to notice if you built something real. No no no no no. This is for people who want to share with a much more limited audience than the entire internet. HN readers did notice a lot of times especially when the project is amazing, OTOH sometimes the latest little side project from somebody well-known, or random interest could be shown. Naturally the most popular things are free since that's inherently the most compatible with the internet anyway. But real marketing and promotion is supposed to be far away from this site. If you're trying to sell to "the internet" you've got the whole rest of the internet for that. HN is not supposed to be enough to be widely noticed at all, if you've got something that's worth marketing, YC is there the whole time and might be able to get you making the most of the internet and then some. Especially if you need a moat of money. But why do so many people think the only business plan is to prepare to be sieged by a small enough horde which can be deterred by a moat anyway? >if you're not already moving, you might never take off. >The cost of acting like it isn't true when it is: permanent. As I first mentioned, the internet being in place so people can make money off of it is the thing that just wasn't true to begin with, lots of people had some pretty good workarounds for a while though. I've been watching businesses from startups to large corporations lock in high costs the exact same way for decades before the internet ever came around. |
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| ▲ | maccam912 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I liked the part about attention being the scarce resource now. Everyone is competing for your attention. But then I see a world in which openclaw is managing emails for people and searching the internet for them and shopping in their behalf. How long until we start seeing advertising specifically targeting AI instead of humans? |
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| ▲ | 2001zhaozhao 33 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| If you thought things were hard now just wait for the industrial-scale fully automatic fast-follow bots that will nearly-universally nuke the human-created original product to oblivion in a few years... |
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| ▲ | mtam 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I disagree. Customer relationships, taste, creativity, tenacity, execution excellence, industry relevance, reputation, non-public data, etc... are all hard earned or intrinsic capabilities that matter a lot more than feature development speed/cost. |
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| ▲ | atomicnumber3 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| "The value of human thinking is going down." No! I fundamentally reject this. The value of unoriginal thinking has gone down. Thinking which is quotidian and pedestrian has become even more worthless than it already was. The value of true, original human thinking has gone up even higher than it ever has been. Do we think no new companies will ever succeed now? Of course not. Who, then, will succeed? It will be innovators and original thinkers and those with excellent taste. Why did stripe make big inroads in developer spaces even if they are in an ultra competitive low margin market? They had excellent taste in developer ergonomics. They won big not because they coded well or fast (though I know pc thinks their speed is a big factor, I think he is mostly incorrect on that) but because they had an actual sense of originality and propriety to their approach! And it resonated. So many other products are similar. You can massively disrupt a space simply by having an original angle on it that nobody else has had. Look at video games! Perhaps the best example of this is how utterly horribly AAA games have been doing, while indie hits produce instantly timeless entries. And soon this will be the ONLY thing that still differentiates. Artistic propriety, originality, and taste. (And, of course, the ever-elusive ability to actually execute that I also don't think LLMs will help with.) |
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| ▲ | 999900000999 13 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | You need money to explore ideas. Or an absurd amount of skill. Say Amy is a great NodeJS and front end programer. She can work on her own projects , but her kids can't eat hope and dreams. Or she can get a job at SoulCrusher Solutions trying to maximum advertising revenue. | |
| ▲ | elliotbnvl 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This is a compelling assertion. But who among us has truly original thoughts? How much new stuff can there be? If all the same-y stuff is losing value (but most stuff has value because it's FOUND not because it's unique) then isn't net value decreasing? | |
| ▲ | bossyTeacher an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | >The value of unoriginal thinking has gone down. Thinking which is quotidian and pedestrian has become even more worthless than it already was. Imagine American manufacturing industry workers saying the same thing of the (at the time) soon-to-be import only products. Original thoughts are valued more than non-original ones but maybe, the market doesn't require that many original thoughts to extract max profit... |
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| ▲ | thoughtfulchris 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > The people winning mostly had a head start. Or they have money. Usually both. It feels like that doesn't it? But, as one counter-point, OpenClaw. :) Btw I did a deep-dive into AI moats last week and wrote a blog post about it. Relationships were most likely the strongest moat from my research - but definitely having a large amount of money in reserves helps. https://www.cjroth.com/blog/2026-02-11-moats-in-the-age-of-a... |
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| ▲ | Rapzid an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > The value of human thinking is going down. You probably knew this. The corollary is rarely mentioned: the value of a human eyeball is going up, because there are only so many of them and there are now infinite things that want to be looked at. Hey, so I'm thinking about getting my car washed.. This article reads as overly hyperbolic; cashing in on the AI hysteria. AI derangement. |
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| ▲ | elliotbnvl an hour ago | parent [-] | | I am not cashing in on AI hysteria. I am AI hysterical. lol. Kinda joking but kinda not. How do you have chill while the world is crashing down? I’m young so that’s probably part of it, only ~12 years into my career and haven’t experienced too many world defining shifts. | | |
| ▲ | fullStackOasis 19 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | I like the idea of you https://joinkith.com/ but I don't see how it can possibly work. These are the issues: There are people who are sick of social media and will never be convinced to join up again. They've already left the building and aren't looking for anything else. I'm not quite there, but almost. Other people are using established social media simply because that's where their people and orgs publish. I am eternally frustrated when my local cafe uses Insta or FB for their "web presence", but I'm not going to be the one to convince them to use something else. I hate that my local rock climbing partner finder group is located on FB, but what can I do about it? I also think it sucks that there are thousands of people in that group - I soon realized that this group simply doesn't work for me, since rock climbing requires high trust and I can't trust thousands of people. Many people resist the idea of signing up for yet another social media account, esp when none of their people/orgs are already there. For example, I've sometimes thought of starting a Heylo group for local rock climbers to find partners - this might actually help me find more climbing partners. But I've never tried it. I just don't think people will join. The barrier to entry is (1) install app (2) create login (3) use app. SFAICT no one wants to do this if they're already on FB and already are a member of the group there. Even people that I know manage finding partners with email lists (gag). Can you imagine how much higher the barrier to entry would be if adding (4) you have to pay a monthly fee? I do like the idea of "only allowed to invite someone that you know in meatspace" but how is this enforced? I also recognize that requiring payment could help increase the trust level, and I recognize that members have to pay in some way (ads, fees, sponsors, privacy violations) in order to support the platform. | |
| ▲ | georgemcbay 17 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | > I’m young so that’s probably part of it, only ~12 years into my career and haven’t experienced too many world defining shifts. I'm old (52) and a bit AI hysterical despite being well aware of the reasons I supposedly shouldn't (variations of Jevon's Paradox, the fact that we've had similar disruptions before, etc). I can't help but think that both the speed and massive breadth of the AI disruption across so many industries all at once makes this a very different risk than anything we've experienced before, in my lifetime or before it. It also doesn't help that at least here in the US this is all occurring when our government is both openly corrupt and particularly dysfunctional at solving any of the real-world problems facing its own citizens. |
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| ▲ | sebstefan 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| >Every morning a few thousand people wake up and ship something. A tool, a SaaS, a newsletter, an app that does the thing the other app does but slightly differently. They post it on Hacker News. Nobody clicks. >This is not new. What's new is the scale. An AI can wake up (or whatever it does at 3am) and ship twelve of these before breakfast. That's fun, I'm sure if somebody actually checked that and graphed it, you would not be able to pinpoint when AI starts on the graph |
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| ▲ | supermdguy an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I think there's still value in building quality products, but AI makes it easy to build something that appears good but doesn't actually work that well. It's very difficult to communicate the thought and intentionality that went into a well-designed product in a way that stands out amongst the noise. |
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| ▲ | kldavis4 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| looks like the real tension here is that "money" and "reach" aren't quite the same moat though. I think the post kind of conflates them. existing audience is the actual barrier - money can buy ads but it can't buy trust or distribution, not quickly anyway the gravitational threshold thing is real ngl. I've seen the same dynamic in product launches - identical quality, completely different outcomes based on whether you're already above the line or not. that part holds up not sure the "creativity is the moat" counterargument fully lands either. yeah taste matters, but AstroBen's point is valid - anything that gets traction gets cloned basically immediately now. so creativity gets you first mover advantage for like... a week? maybe the actual moat is just community? people who already trust you before you ship. which is a form of reach I guess, so kind of proves the point |
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| ▲ | rkilanh an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| And the super rich now even switch to other people's money. A fund makes investments in SpaceX and Anthropic available: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/retail-investors-access-space... It would be hilarious if the final "IPOs" will be in SPAC form with the help of SPAC king Chamath. |
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| ▲ | imWildCat 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I saw Peter Steinberger whose creativity is huge and made a difference.
Yeah you can say he's already rich. But I also saw many people like him including the author of Flask.
Also the author of XcodeBuildMcp, tailwindcss |
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| ▲ | carlosjobim 11 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Is the purpose of space exploration to build rockets? Or is the purpose to deliver things and people into orbit and to other worlds? Is the purpose of a computer program to use processing, network and memory? Or is it to handle and manipulate information to give results which are useful to people? Now the moat of having memorized intentionally convoluted and complicated programming languages has been taken away. Exactly like the printing press removed the monopoly on information which was held exclusively by priests and monks. When tools make a job easier, they open up new markets for people to do and sell things which were too costly to offer before. AI translation alone means that small businesses can open up several markets they didn't have any access to, broadening the number of potential customers immensely. |
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| ▲ | AJRF 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > When creation was hard, skill was the differentiator
I don't think people use things because they are hard to make |
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| ▲ | norbert515 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| While building has becomes way cheaper (and probably is going to become even cheaper in the future), is building something exceptional really that much cheaper now? AI has certainly made it so much simpler to just pump "something" out (slop), but did it actually make building something that went through hundreds and thousands of iterations significantly cheaper? I also like to think AI is really raising the bar for everybody. In the past, you could easily get away launching a product with a crappy landing page and a couple of bugs here and there, is that still the case? Don't people just expect a perfect landing page at this point (when's the last time anybody specifically talked/ thought about responsiveness?) paired with a flawless onboarding etc.? |
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| ▲ | ge96 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I hope this is true, I'm trying to make a multi-agent orchestration thing that looks at grain futures, satellite imagery, news, etc... to trade crypto. I'll probably lose but yeah. Maybe the guy doing their 9-5 can run many agents to make them money while they work their day job. Is that a thing, you get hired at some company then you use an agent to work for you, deep fake video calls, cursor code... that would be crazy. Get another job and split your time between agents for minor corrections. |
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| ▲ | dzonga an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Saturation of channels due to slop content - doesn't mean that created stuff is not scarce there's more problems then ever before that need empathetic humans to solve - are you up for the challenge - or you're doing a quick cash grab due to people using machine gun approaches - spray & pray - we haven't forgotten how scalable human touch is -- yeah at first - you've to do things the manual way - reach out have a conversation - but slowly word spreads around without you spending money on ads | content etc |
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| ▲ | elliotbnvl an hour ago | parent [-] | | Yeah 100% there's more legit stuff than ever, but there's also just more stuff than ever. So it becomes a discoverability problem. To be honest this is what is discouraging me from writing more novels right now. The only reason I'm even considering it is because the love of the craft is hooked firmly in my gullet. Were it not for that I'd drop writing faster than a lava potato... |
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| ▲ | lysace 28 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It's like.. what happens when software becomes a solved problem? Like bricks for construction. There's not 50 million typically highly paid brick design engineers in the world. |
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| ▲ | dudewhocodes 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Have people naturally started sounding like an LLM when they write and talk?
To me this article reads not fully human. |
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| ▲ | boxedemp an hour ago | parent [-] | | There's multiple things happening here. People are using LLMs to write, for sure. It's only natural to absorb what you consume, so as people read more LLM generated content they can unintentionally emit it. And then there's classic confirmation bias; a lot of people wrote in dry academic prose. |
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| ▲ | turnsout an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Difficulty is the only true moat. [Astronaut: always has been] Current examples: esoteric calculations that are not public knowledge; historical data that you collected and someone else didn't; valuable proprietary data; having good taste; having insider knowledge of a niche industry; making physical things; attracting an audience. Some things that were recently difficult are now easy, but general perception has not caught up. That means there's arbitrage—you can charge the old prices for creating a web app, but execute it in a day. But this arbitrage will not last forever; we will see downward price pressure on anything that is newly easy. So my advice is: take advantage now. |
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| ▲ | nsxwolf 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Welp guess I’m done then. Kind of nice to know I don’t have to blame myself anymore. |
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| ▲ | bell-cot 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I'm no big fan of economists - but if some type of business is seen as highly desirable to be in, and has minimal barriers to entry, then the market will soon be saturated. Expecting otherwise is (at best) wishful thinking. |
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| ▲ | AstroBen 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| People here saying creativity or having a good idea is the moat You know that if anything you build gets traction, it'll be cloned by 100 people, right? |
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| ▲ | sowbug an hour ago | parent [-] | | It isn't the moat. But it gives you a head start to build it. |
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| ▲ | cynicalsecurity 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Doom and gloom nonsense. |
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| ▲ | ctoth an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| No, it's imagination, same as it ever was. Software to most of this discussion is a web app with a landing page, a pricing tier, and MRR. That's it. The frame is "product," the metric is "traction," and the canvas is "things people pay $9/month for." But software is instructions that make matter and energy do things they wouldn't otherwise do. It's the most general-purpose tool humans have ever built. So let's actually think about what's underbuilt: The whole damn physical world is barely instrumented. Agricultural systems, water infrastructure, building envelopes, soil health, local microclimates. There are farmers making irrigation decisions on vibes. Municipal water systems with no real-time leak detection. Buildings hemorrhaging energy because nobody's modeled their thermal behavior. These aren't apps. They're control systems, and they're mostly missing. Fabrication and manufacturing are being transformed by CNC/3D printing but the software for designing things to be manufactured is still terrible (and inaccessible!). Generative design that accounts for material properties, toolpath constraints, assembly sequences. CAM software is where word processors were in 1985. Scientific instruments. A spectrometer is mostly software now. So is a radio telescope. So is a seismograph. Every goddamn thing can be a thermometer (accidentaly!) The gap between "data sensor exists" and "useful scientific instrument" is almost entirely software, and most of that software is written by grad students in unmaintained Python. Preservation. Some people are doing this with datamuseum.dk. But expand it: there are entire musical traditions, oral histories, craft techniques, ecological knowledge systems that exist in living memory and nowhere else. Software for capturing, encoding, and transmitting that knowledge barely exists. Not "an app for recording grandma," but formal knowledge representation of, say, how a master boatbuilder in Kerala selects wood by sound and flex. Prosthetics and rehabilitation. This one is big for me personally! The gap between what a modern prosthetic limb could do with good software and what it actually does is enormous. Why are my eyeballs still chunks of plastic? Same for cognitive rehabilitation tools, speech therapy systems, physical therapy feedback loops. Governance and collective decision-making. Every organization above 20 people is making decisions with tools that are basically "email plus meetings plus a shared doc." Formal deliberation systems, preference aggregation, transparent resource allocation. These are hard computer science problems that nobody's building because they don't have obvious MRR. Tools for thought that aren't note-taking apps with backlinks. Actual reasoning aids. Argument mapping. Assumption tracking. Decision support that makes your thinking better rather than your typing faster. The entire domain of formal verification applied to things that matter. Bridges, medical devices, voting systems, financial settlement. We have figured out how to prove some? software correct. We almost never do it for the software where correctness actually matters. And that's me, one person, in five minutes. Every domain expert in the world is sitting on a pile of unsolved problems that software could address, and most of them have never talked to a programmer because programmers are busy building the next task management app. Go talk to a nurse, a farmer, a building inspector, a food bank logistics coordinator. Ask them what's broken. I promise the answer isn't "nothing" and I promise nobody on ProductHunt is solving it. PG wrote essays about this ffs! "Make something people want." "Live in the future and build what's missing." That advice didn't stop being true because AI made the building part cheaper. If anything it's more true now, because the building is almost free, which means the noticing is almost the entire game. You are skipping the noticing and going straight to the building, then wondering why nobody cares. The number of hard things isn't going down. This thread can't see them because it's not looking at the world. It's looking at ProductHunt. To make things concrete, in the last week I have been working on my open source speech synthesizer, rebuilding Klatt's ideas from the 1980 paper up to modern emotion/prosody work. Did you know the whole field went nuts for neural approaches in ~2018 and there's a whole shitload of interesting papers just sitting out there that nobody has ever implemented in a real system? Did you know that a bunch of people did research into what different human emotions sound like and now I can make a depressed speech synthesizer, or, scarily, one which sounds more honest to people? |
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| ▲ | rvz 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| So this is what the VCs were screaming about this bullshit about "abundance". Abundance of copy cats that cannot make any money as prices are raced to zero. |
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| ▲ | saubeidl 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Capitalism working as intended, shifting more and more resources to the already-rich. A handful of people doesn't own most of the country by accident. |
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| ▲ | andsoitis 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Wealth is not a zero sum game. There’s more wealth in the world today than 50 years ago, 500 years ago, 5000 years ago. | | |
| ▲ | exceptione an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | A free market is not a zero sum game indeed. Monopolies turn it into a zero sum game. To keep a market free, you have to regulate it. Wealth concentration is dangerous for democracy, the markets and society. | | |
| ▲ | mothballed an hour ago | parent [-] | | I think you have it backwards. Regulation is what enables monopolies. There is no monopoly for any of the major industries like cow herding or cellular telephone service in Somalia despite almost no effective regulation. There is not even a monopoly of pirates despite them willing to use violence to try and enforce a monopoly. If you look at the history of the US, for instance, railroad regulation was brought forth largely by the railroads because they found it impossible to form a cartel to keep up prices (due to "secret" discounting) so instead they created regulation that outlawed the kind of discounting that breaks cartels apart. A similar thing happened in banking where the banks asked for a central bank to cartelize the interest ranks to stabilize their oligopoly. And the same in pharma industry -- big pharma loves high regulatory barriers because it keeps competitors out. A large portion of the regulation in the US was brought about as regulatory capture by corporations to increase the monopolizing effects and destroy the free market. | | |
| ▲ | exceptione an hour ago | parent [-] | | This is not a personal opinion of mine, it is pretty much established science. I think only think-tank backed sources would claim the opposite. One should understand the phenomenon as a common pattern of dynamics in unregulated markets. Not every snapshot will showcase an end state of monopolist dominated markets. You bring up a valid point though. Regulatory capture is a indeed a weapon in the hands of anti-competitive players to prevent incumbents. Good policy usually applies differently to different strata: the small players are exempt from certain rules, or have to deal with less stringent ones than big players do, to prevent killing the market. At the risk of sounding like an llm: it is not just about policy, it is about good policy. |
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| ▲ | mothballed 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There are a lot of zero-sum things that are being chased by money, and maybe even the most sought after ones. Like political power, sexual partners, and chasing the top % of credentials for your offspring to position them with better access to zero sum things. | |
| ▲ | saubeidl an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Wealth is intently relative. Absolute growth of wealth is just inflation. | |
| ▲ | lm28469 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | That's why we cured hunger in 2012, cured poverty in 2017, fixed healthcare in 2020, working as intended indeed | | |
| ▲ | OrionNox 8 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Literal toddler economics understanding of the world, lmao even | |
| ▲ | saubeidl an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | You might not be living in the same reality as me if you believe any of those claims. | | |
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