| ▲ | bonoboTP 15 hours ago |
| > In later stages, try to mirror emotions ("I understand that you feel sad because..." instead of "don't cry, it's not that bad"). I'm very skeptical that these orwellian rephrasings do any good. I'm super skeptical of this whole approach to speak differently in relationships, at work etc. I've mostly seen this whole "nonviolent communication", therapy-talk and related stuff used as manipulative verbal judo to sound nice but be mean with leaving no avenue to be criticized. I don't see how this pampering will produce emotionally robust kids. In fact whatever has been this stuff recently seems to have produced an overly anxious and fearful new generation. |
|
| ▲ | ivell 15 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| > I understand that you feel sad because..." instead of "don't cry, it's not that bad"). Since children have very limited experience, I think it is important for them to know that their feelings are valid instead being discarded. This makes them understand their own feelings and build empathy for others. Otherwise you are basically teaching the kids other's feelings are invalid or not important to be acknowledged. Think of it as model training to build empathy and understanding. |
| |
| ▲ | bonoboTP 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | I still don't know what a valid and an invalid feeling is supposed to mean. Kids should learn to calibrate their sense of proportion by parental guidance. Not everything that seems like a big deal to a toddler is one, and simply reaffirming that won't help. I wonder how many of these theorists have seen real kids do real kid stuff. | | |
| ▲ | matty22 12 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I've spent thousands of dollars and years in therapy because I was raised with the ethos of "Don't come to me unless you are bleeding" and "Why are you crying? You are crying for no reason." What that ethos led me to believe is that ALL emotions are irrational. So, I have a really hard time feeling empathy for others or being capable of putting myself in others' shoes in my adult relationships. Because in my head I'm thinking, "What's the big deal? Why is <partner> so worried about something that matters so little? She's crying for no reason." That's why it's important to affirm your toddler's emotions. Even when it seems like a trivial event to you, their feelings and emotions about that trivial event are anything but trivial. And teaching them that feeling their feelings is silly or irrational will instill that belief in them for the rest of their lives. | | |
| ▲ | mangodrunk 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | And many who grew up with parents affirming their emotions are also attending therapy. Perhaps, a bigger lesson would be that you are thinking the grass is always greener on the other side. You do seem capable of feeling empathy and you are thoughtful. | | |
| ▲ | ivell 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | > affirming their emotions are also attending therapy. Would be good to know for what they are going for therapy. Many people go for therapy for different issues. The parent post mentioned about empathy issues. But not clear what issues you are mentioning here. | | |
| ▲ | mangodrunk 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | That is true, but assuming that if their parents did things differently would have changed things for them seems wrong. It's always easy to blame parents. |
|
|
| |
| ▲ | ivell 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Not everything that seems like a big deal to a toddler is one, and simply reaffirming that won't help Some of divorces happen because one partner thinks the other partner's concern is not "big deal". The goal is not to teach what issues are critical and what is not. This they will learn over time. The goal is to teach them empathy and you show it by example, showing empathy to their concerns - big or small. | | |
| ▲ | bonoboTP 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | If you're an asshole, this stuff won't help. If you're a balanced person, obsessing over what words to use will just make you more anxious and worried and will do more harm to the kid than if you're just relaxed and say or phrase something in a way the parenting experts and TikTok therapists deem a nono. | | |
| ▲ | ivell 13 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > obsessing over what words to use will just make you more anxious and worried It is not exact words to memorize. It is about what attitude you bring to your child. If you really try to understand the toddler's sadness, you would realize that something important to her has been lost and instead of disregarding it as unimportant (for an adult), you would help her to find, make her understand her emotions etc. This is more about being empathetic and not about the right words to use. In case of psychologists, they are giving example phrases - doesn't have to be exact as long as the spirit of those phrases are maintained. Obviously being as asshole doesn't help, but most of the times children of assholes tend to be assholes due to the same reasons. | |
| ▲ | 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | _DeadFred_ 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Parenting with love isn't phrasing. Parenting with love and logic gives a framework of understanding for a child to grow within, versus them learning (being forced) to adapt their behavior to arbitrary rules. |
|
| |
| ▲ | MrGilbert 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > I still don't know what a valid and an invalid feeling is supposed to mean. Maybe that’s a topic you could dive in deeper on your own terms, then? And stay curious! |
|
|
|
| ▲ | segh 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It's not really about the words, but about the intentions. If you speak the words without the intentions, then you get the orwellian mismatch you describe. So it's not really about "rephrasing" but more about "reorientation". The suggested phrasings are just a pointer to something deeper. There are many ways of approaching this idea (nonviolent communication is one). This blog post is another for those interested: https://chrisbarber.co/resonance/ |
|
| ▲ | bitshiftfaced 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It comes up in evidence-based parenting programs. It helps them connect the feeling word to their internal state, which is a step toward building emotional regulation skills. You're also modeling empathy for them. But one issue rarely talked about is how parents tend to label uncomfortable emotions far more than other ones, which can inadvertently reinforce them and cause them to happen more frequently. |
|
| ▲ | quietbritishjim 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Yesterday, my 3 year old daughter was very upset because she wanted to wear her very dirty top from the day to bed. I took exactly the approach described. I didn't scold her for being upset about something that doesn't matter - it did to her! - I sympathised about how she felt, but also explained that it had to be changed. This didn't result in her refusing and a big fight. She agreed and changed her top without any physical force. As she did, she was still crying, but with hugs from me. Instead of me being the adversary imposing the rules, she got to have emotional support through what was, for her, a hard time. She will not grow up to be an emotionally fragile adult, upset every time she needs to change her top. (At least, not because of that interaction.) That's giving your actions too much credit! She will learn for herself that it's not important. But she'll grow up feeling supported. (Honestly, it probably wouldn't have been that bad if I had let wear it to bed! But I'm sure you wouldn't prefer that level of pandering.) -------- Edit: Piggybacking my comment to add: a great book on this subject is "How To Talk So That Kids Will Listen" and, for younger children, "How To Talk So Little Kids Will Listen". An approach it advocates is: 1. Clearly sympathising with the child's emotion (as several of my replies say, this takes a lot more effort than just saying "I see that you're sad, oh dear"). 2. Saying "The problem is ...". Not "but"! Like adults, children know that nothing before "but" means anything. 3. Give a brief reason why you're going to do something different. To repeat what I said in several comments, the goal is not to persuade them (although, of course, it's great if it does), just to demonstrate that there is a reason. 4. Follow through with the action regardless. I have since seen my daughter saying to other children (or her animals during imaginary play) "the problem is..." :-) It does have some great other tips e.g. using a visual timer to illustrate when there's some amount of time to complete an activity. |
| |
| ▲ | bonoboTP 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | But you did impose the rule, it didn't come from outside so you misled her. | | |
| ▲ | quietbritishjim 13 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | You are really stretching! The reality of dirty clothes getting her bed dirty comes from physics, not me. Edit: As another example, I might impose the end of TV time but still give a brief reason of it not being good for your concentration to watch too much. The point is not that every explanation will be understood, but to at least demonstrate that there is a reason for preventing fun things, even if it's complex and confusing - it's not me just enjoying her being upset. | | |
| ▲ | bonoboTP 13 hours ago | parent [-] | | I sometimes see parents doing this "always rationally explain everything to the small kid and expect them to simply follow and accept the logic" tactic in public and it seems... Ineffective. | | |
| ▲ | quietbritishjim 13 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | No, I explained that already in my comment. It was in an edit, maybe you drafted your reply before that. I said: > The point is not that every explanation will be understood, but to at least demonstrate that there is a reason for preventing fun things, even if it's complex and confusing. If I tell my 3 year old that watching too much TV will affect her concentration, I absolutely don't expect her to make a complex long-term value judgement, or even to know what the word "concentration" means. I also don't expect her to just say "oh fair enough then". As I said, it's just to demonstrate that there is a reason (even if she doesn't understand it) beyond my own satisfaction. Can you really not see that there are three possibilities here: 1. "I don't care if you're upset, so that's what we're doing". 2. "I don't want you to be upset, and although there's a good reason, if I can't persuade you logically then you can have it your way" 3. "I don't want you to be upset, but there's a good reason, so that's what we're doing" (Edit: Having written that, the last one is still not quite right. The point is to acknowledge why that have that feeling - not just assert that they're upset. Usually it's pretty simple e.g. they want to carry on playing. But it does take more effort than either of the other approaches.) > I sometimes see parents ... In my experience (from casual observation), the very worst behaved children have uncaring parents that shout and scream at them. | |
| ▲ | vharuck 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's a long game thing. My kid surprises me with how far back he can remember the things I've said. He'll say them like he came up with them independently. That means those words are getting through and being internalized. | | |
| ▲ | testing22321 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | My almost three year old shocks me every day with the stuff she remembers- things we did, things I said, etc. Not just outright memory either, but applying logic to those memories “last time we left the car alone we said it would be lonely, now the bike is alone so it will be lonely” |
|
|
| |
| ▲ | jamiejquinn 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | You can firmly impose a rule and be sympathetic to a small child's reaction to that rule, no? What would you have done differently? | | |
| ▲ | bonoboTP 13 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'm with Zizek on this stuff. > “Imagine you or me, I’m a small boy. It’s Sunday afternoon. My father wants me to visit our grandmother. Let’s say my father is a traditional authority. What would he be doing? He would probably tell me something like, “I don’t care how you feel; it’s your duty to visit your grandmother. Be polite to her and so on.” Nothing bad about this I claim because I can still rebel and so on. It’s a clear order. > But what would the so-called post-modern non-authoritarian father do? I know because I experienced it. He would have said something like this, “You know how much your grandmother loves you, but nonetheless I’m not forcing you to visit her. You should only visit her if you freely decide to do it.” Now every child knows that beneath the appearance of free choice there is a much stronger pressure in this second message. Because basically your father is not only telling you, you must visit your grandmother, but you must love to visit it. You know he tells you how you must feel about it. It’s a much stronger order.” | | |
| ▲ | martimchaves 13 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I'm not sure this applies. In the prior case they were talking about recognizing emotions and asserting rules (with explanations). I think Zizek's example here is more about disguising a direct order as a way to obfuscate authoritarianism. I don't think OP is saying that you should use subterfuge to get your way, but instead that you should recognize negative emotions as they happen, by explicitly noticing and talking about them out loud. I think that if OP were to use the approach Zizek mentioned, they would've said something along the lines of: "You don't have to take off your dirty shirt, but oh the bed would be so sad if you were to wear it, really you would be the most beautiful child if you were to take off your dirty shirt and put a clean new one". | |
| ▲ | wilkommen 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There's another way of handling it - remind your son that his grandmother would love to see him, and if he doesn't want to go, let him. Maybe from his perspective he doesn't feel very loved by his grandmother. If he did, he would probably want to go. Problem solved. No demand is made on the child to either do something he doesn't want to do, or to feel some way he doesn't actually feel. | | | |
| ▲ | 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
|
|
|
|
|
| ▲ | spicyusername 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| overly anxious generation
I feel
You clearly have a lot of "feelings", but do you have any facts? On any of whether children / young adults are actually more anxious, on how parenting has changed, and whether those two things are related? I've mostly seen
manipulation
As you've said, perhaps the problem is that you seem to live in a space where all you're experiencing is manipulation, and not that supporting your children and teaching them the skills needed to navigate and regulate their emotions is "pampering".Most children and young adults I interact with closely these days seem to be far more emotionally mature than my cohort or my parents' cohort. But that's also just my anecdata. |
| |
| ▲ | exoverito 13 hours ago | parent [-] | | There's a large amount of evidence of an increase in mental illness, anxiety, depression among the youth and young adults. Jonathan Haidt attributes it primarily to social media and ideologies on the internet. I would imagine economic precariousness is also a major factor. https://www.persuasion.community/p/haidt-the-teen-mental-ill... A majority of young people across the world also believe their future will be significantly worse, either due to climate change or other causes like globalization and AI. | | |
| ▲ | weakfish 12 hours ago | parent [-] | | Speaking as a member of Gen-Z (26) I can confirm that most of my anxiety is not from my hippy parenting, but from an increasingly chaotic world (I mean this in the sense of information overload, not ratio of peaceful times to war time) and dwindling economic opportunity. I do think that millenial-style parenting has many flaws and is guilty of messing of kids in novel ways, but it's dishonest to say that it's more guilty than social media, stagnating wages, etc. | | |
| ▲ | mangodrunk 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | The world has always been chaotic. I would wager that most people are better off now than they were before. There is something new in that we are straddling young people with massive amounts of student debt for a college degree that was overpriced and oversold on its benefits. I agree with what you last said, it's not necessarily entirely hippy parenting, but it does seem like hippy parenting at best did not prepare people for the real world or hasn't had a material improvement. Maybe each previous generation laments of the next generation's parenting style. | | |
| ▲ | weakfish 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Your first point is what I was trying to convey in my parentheses, which is that the world is more peaceful than ever before and yet it feels like it's closing in on us increasingly so due to the vast amount of information thrown at us with no viable way to process it. This, paired with the ever increasing amount of things we are expected to fit in with no reasonable way to do so leads to burnout _Fast_ |
|
|
|
|
|
| ▲ | svnt 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I’m sorry that has been your experience. The language, like anything available and useful, can be used by anyone, and for any purpose. It is sad that it has been abused by previous generations and in corporate uses to the point where we can no longer even receive emotional support without suspicion of intent. I hope you are able to find a community where people who say that, feel it, and mean it, and partner with you to resolve the underlying issue. |
|
| ▲ | te_chris 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The research is sound and comprehensive. Validate someone’s emotions then try and fix the problem. |
| |
| ▲ | bonoboTP 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | Did it survive the replication crisis? File drawer effect? Social science produces whatever results are prestigious in the current intellectual academic zeitgeist. I have zero trust in any of it and will trust a random granny's life experience more. |
|
|
| ▲ | port11 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Except… research is showing it works? You’re thinking of the “generation” (arbitrary lines) raised by people that didn’t yet have the tools and science for more responsive rearing. Have you interacted with a toddler? They are completely unaware of their emotional state, they’ll just cry or complain. So you gently remind them that it’s indeed frustrating, or that they’re sad, etc. There’s nothing Orwellian about it, you’re merely giving them words to name emotions. And, ideally, they’ll grow up way less confused and reactive than the generation you’re thinking about. Emotional resilience doesn’t come from “toughen up”, but rather from knowing what you’re feeling and how/why you gotta handle it in a healthy way. Everything GP said is basically modern, evidence-based, good parenting. |