| ▲ | dclavijo 21 hours ago |
| Here’s what bothers me: isn’t the United States a free market? What crime did he actually commit? Using services exactly as they are offered? It turns out that now, if you take advantage of the system as it was designed and gain a financial edge, you become a criminal—but if a major corporation does it, they just get a slap on the wrist. |
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| ▲ | gruez 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| >isn’t the United States a free market? What crime did he actually commit? Using services exactly as they are offered? From the indictment: >SMITH’s streaming fraud lasted from 2017 to 2024 and he executed it in three steps. First, SMITH created thousands of fraudulent accounts on the Streaming Platforms (the “Bot Accounts”) that he could use to stream songs. Second, he used software to cause the Bot Accounts to continuously stream purported songs that he owned, which were generally created using super intelligence. Third, Smith collected royalties based on the fraudulent streams he orchestrated his own Bot Accounts to conduct. >SMITH spread his automated streams across thousands of songs to avoid anomalous streaming as to any single song, which would likely cause the Streaming Platforms to discover his scheme. At times SMITH was using as many as 10,000 Bot Accounts at once to fraudulently stream music, and he used fake email accounts and fraudulently-obtained debit cards to create the Bot Accounts. As SMITH explained it in an email, he needed “a TON of songs fast” in order to circumvent the “anti fraud policies” of the Streaming Platforms. To obtain the necessary number of songs for his scheme to succeed, SMITH turned to super intelligence, which he used to create hundreds of thousands of AI-generated songs for which he could manipulate the streams. So this isn't even "haha wouldn't it be funny if we make a 10 hour song that's just silence and then convince people to play it while they're sleeping", which would at least be vaguely legal. This is far closer to ad fraud. |
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| ▲ | dcow 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I find this fascinating, actually. On one hand we must disincentivize fraud. On the other hand enforcement of laws really should have observable utility and not feel arbitrary. I’m much more on the “fix the model” side of the spectrum on this one. That doesn’t mean I think we should allow what SMITH did. I feel uncomfortable when we start handing out prison for things that are isomorphic in utility to things that seem clearly legal. Which of these are fraud: a) I block or skip ads in media I consume b) 1000 people block or skip ads in media they consume c) I convince 1000 humans to play my songs every day and all of them listen to the ads d) I convince 1000 of humans to play my songs every day and all of them skip the ads e) I program 1000 bots to play my songs every day (b) (d) and (e) all have the same outcome for ad agencies, nobody hears the ads. If (e) is the only one that’s problematic, then we aren’t solving the problem by prosecuting (e). Similar vein to Matt Levine’s “everything is securities fraud” takes. | | |
| ▲ | gruez 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | IANAL, but... >a) I block or skip ads in media I consume >b) 1000 people block or skip ads in media they consume Not doing something is generally considered okay, even if it decreases someone else's revenue. eg. saying that a given product is a scam and not worth the money (assuming it's true). Same with skipping ads (eg. TiVo) >c) I convince 1000 humans to play my songs every day and all of them listen to the ads >d) I convince 1000 of humans to play my songs every day and all of them skip the ads Legal, because the whole point of advertising is to convince people to do something, even if it costs someone else money (eg. drugs, which might cost your insurance provider money). Where you might get into trouble is if the actions turn out to be fraud, eg. telling people to stream music, even though no one's listening to it, for the sole purpose of getting streaming minutes, or setting up a kickback scheme (might be tortious interference). Again, going back to the drug example, it's pretty intuitive. Advertising a drug? That's fine. Telling people to buy your drug, just so they can chuck it into the trash, for the sole purpose of enriching yourself? Probably illegal. | |
| ▲ | ajkjk 32 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | the difference is that (d) is not fraud and (e) is fraud, lol. Duh. you seem to be thinking of the legal system like some kind of programming language / logic paradigm and it is not that and never has been most likely ad-blocking would also be considered some sort of fraud (or rather: companies would block using their services if the ads were not seen, and then circumventing that would be regarded as fraud) except that it is not politically/socially tenable to do that at all. | |
| ▲ | quickthrowman an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Easy, (e) is fraud. The rest are legal. You can choose to not do something, advertising is analogous to convincing and advertising is legal. Collecting money from a platform by making bots play songs you created is fraud. Making bots listen to a song without any financial incentive is not fraud. | | |
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| ▲ | godwinson__4-8 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | None of this merits a prison sentence to me. Should be a civil case. The readiness which with the United States incarcerates is a moral disgrace. Especially given the level of criminality the government itself exercises that goes unpunished. | | |
| ▲ | gruez 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | >Should be a civil case. The readiness which with the United States incarcerates is a moral disgrace. Especially given the level of criminality the government itself exercises that goes unpunished. So what's your actual argument here? Is it 1. whatever he did isn't wire fraud? 2. whatever he did is wire fraud, but wire fraud shouldn't be prosecuted, similar to how crashing a car isn't prosecuted? 3. whatever he did is criminal and should be prosecuted, but trump is abusing his pardoning powers so every other white collar criminal should be off the hook? | | |
| ▲ | godwinson__4-8 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | What part of doesn't merit a prison sentence escapes you? I'll take all 3. It really doesn't matter. I don't want this person going to prison in my name. A criminal case is supposed to represent the public interest. A free society is meant to set a high bar to deprive someone of their liberty. The streaming platform can sue him if they like. A civil case that results in punitive damages is also understandable. In my view, incarceration in this instance is a disgrace. The argument is a moral one, not a legalistic one. Perhaps the statutes around wire fraud should be reformed. IDK it's not my area, and my argument doesn't rely on a legalistic interpretation, rather it suggests if the law's answer here is to put this person in prison something is wrong with the law. That is the argument. You seem to be asking me how would I codify the solution or else you have misunderstood me. | | |
| ▲ | whattheheckheck 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Justice is supposed to make sense for society not for the uber wealthy. No prison sentence. | |
| ▲ | tantalor 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Your argument: If somebody robs a bank, they did not harm society, the bank can just sue them to recover the money. | | |
| ▲ | godwinson__4-8 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | No? A bank is a regulated entity in the public interest. Pointing a gun in someone's face is also not in the public interest. Juicing some streaming numbers hurt who? Spotify's margin? It's not even clear to me without diving into the actual case where he went from getting an edge to engaging in the alleged crime. Or what he could have done differently to preclude criminal prosecution but could have still resulted in a civil case. More importantly, why should he have to go to prison? Why don't you make that moral argument instead of engaging in such a misread of my position. | | |
| ▲ | guiambros an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | > Juicing some streaming numbers hurt who? Spotify's margin? You don't seem to understand how the streaming revenue model works, and why this is an egregious fraud against the public interest. You believe that stream fraud is someone simply stealing from Spotify/YouTube/etc, so who cares. In reality, all musicians share a pool of revenue across ads + subscriptions on each platform (typically two-thirds of the total, although each platform has a different rev share model). This fraud only marginally impacts Spotify financials, as their cut is fixed and taken from the topline [1]. But someone abusing the system like this guy breaks the model for everyone. Not only you're stealing money from millions of musicians, but you're undermining the confidence in the whole industry. I don't have an opinion if this merits jail time or not, but yes, this is pretty bad. Like money counterfeiting-bad. [1] ps: of course, if this becomes rampant, musicians get screwed and turn against Spotify, so it's in their best interest to do whatever it take down the fraudsters. It's a never-ending cat-and-mouse game. | |
| ▲ | metabagel 42 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Juicing some streaming numbers hurt who? He used fraud to get a payout from Spotify. It's analogous to forging a check to get the bank to pay you money which you aren't owed. | |
| ▲ | gruez 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >No? A bank is a regulated entity in the public interest. What does this even mean? Only crimes against things are "regulated" should be prosecuted? Or "public interest", however vaguely that's defined? >Juicing some streaming numbers hurt who? Spotify's margin? Other artists. The subscriber/ad revenues are divided pro-rata (unclear whether it's by subscriber or across all subscribers), so by streaming a bunch of fake music, it's displacing the streaming minutes of other artists, ever so slightly. Moreover, even if it is spotify that's losing money, how is it less in the "public interest" than banks? For the sake of argument let's subtract the threat of violence, and assume they hacked an ATM or something. Would that suddenly not be in the "public interest" to prosecute the offenders? Why should multi-billion dollar banks deserve more sympathy than multi-billion dollar tech companies, especially for crimes that in all likelihood won't lead to either company's demise? | | |
| ▲ | godwinson__4-8 an hour ago | parent [-] | | > What does this even mean? I take it based on your other comments that the distinction between criminal and civil proceedings is suitably apparent to you? If so I struggle to understand then why this leap is so hard for you. You and I can have a private dispute without the government getting involved as a prosecuting party, yes? Banks are highly regulated because the state has sought fit to take an interest in how they are run. Roughly, because if a bank defrauds its numerous depositors this incurs a societal cost. Similarly, violence is also regulated, as it is inimical to the state's requisite monopoly on violence to tolerate private expressions of this power. I simply do not get the intuition here that it is in the public interest to put this person in prison in the same way the intuition may surface in these other cases. If you disagree that is fine, but then I'm curious to hear where your intuition on this private vs public interest line is. Of course it is somewhat vague. If the public interest was clear and obvious to everyone electoral politics would not exist. Can you offer a positive moral argument for incarceration in this case? Surely you are aware of principles around the burden of proof? Since you seem to be on the pro criminal prosecution side here why don't you take up the burden of saying you want this man to suffer in prison for his crime? I understand your frustration that I don't have all the answers. It would be a more impressive indictment if I was willing to send people to prison under such circumstances. I take the burden of depriving a fellow citizen of their liberty in a free society rather seriously. Do you? If so, please explain to me how you alleviate yourself of this burden in this case. I'm open to being persuaded. | | |
| ▲ | gruez 36 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | So going back to the ATM hacking example, do you think that's criminal or not? What if it's not a "regulated" institution, like an ordinary business? Say you scam Acme Co out of a few million dollars. Luckily for society, Acme Co is a trillion dollar company, so they could stand to lose that. The only harm is to its margins and shareholders, like you said earlier. Does that mean it's fine to hack Acme Co, worst case scenario I have to repay what I stole, and maybe pay their lawyer/cleanup costs? If you can't clearly articulate what the "public interest" means, it just feels like this whole thing is just a long winded way for you to say that we shouldn't be prosecuting non-violent crimes, unless the victim is sufficiently sympathetic, in which case we throw the book at them. That's no way to run a justice system. >Can you offer a positive moral argument for incarceration in this case? Surely you are aware of principles around the burden of proof? Since you seem to be on the pro criminal prosecution side here why don't you take up the burden of saying you want this man to suffer in prison for his crime? I understand your frustration that I don't have all the answers. It would be a more impressive indictment if I was willing to send people to prison under such circumstances. You can make the same arguments about the questionable utility of incarceration for violent crimes too. The typical arguments against incarceration works equally well for violent crimes as they do for non-violent ones. | | |
| ▲ | metabagel 18 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Yeah, I think they are arguing that white collar crimes should not result in prison sentences. | | |
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| ▲ | metabagel 19 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | This wasn't a dispute though. This was clearly fraud, and I think it becomes criminal due to wire fraud (fraud crossing state or national borders). To me, this falls under the category of white collar crime. I'm OK with white collar criminals serving time. It's not like this case is in a gray area. It's clearly a conspiracy to commit fraud on a large scale. I get where you're coming from. It's not stealing. But, setting up fake accounts in order to trick Spotify into sending him money is clearly fraud. |
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| ▲ | cindyllm 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | iamnothere 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Bank robbery typically involves violence or the threat of violence. I don’t think the two are really comparable. To justify imprisonment (rather than purely monetary penalties or civil judgements) you really have to look at the relative scale of harm and the type of harm inflicted. Imprisonment doesn’t always make sense, there are many nonviolent crimes where a purely monetary penalty would be more appropriate. For one thing, imprisonment can prevent people from paying back the victim. | | |
| ▲ | colejohnson66 an hour ago | parent [-] | | Not necessarily. One can walk into a bank, slide a note and a bag, and (hopefully) walk out. No threats involved. Still a federal crime. | | |
| ▲ | godwinson__4-8 an hour ago | parent [-] | | I feel like you are missing the rather obvious or else the note implies. Luckily the law is not so rigid as to be hamstrung by such sophistry. I didn't assault you, I merely invited your face to make an acquaintance with my fist! The reason the note works is banks don't want to pay the cost of having their employees getting their brains blown out. Passing a note with this understanding means one knows they are making a threat. |
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| ▲ | joquarky an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Are you fine with paying $50,000 a year to separate this person from society because he cheated some company? Are we really taking corporate personhood in this direction now? | | |
| ▲ | nemomarx 31 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Arguably he reduced the payout of real musicians by doing this, so he did harm real people too. | |
| ▲ | SpicyLemonZest an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | I don’t believe that people running this kind of scam are engaging in careful moral reasoning about acceptable victims. The man who did this would surely have stolen $50,000 from my grandma if he thought he saw a clever way to get away with it. |
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| ▲ | fragmede 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It matters who you're stealing from. And if you're undermining the system itself. This is why counterfeiting currency is considered such a serious crime. If I photocopy a $1 bill, I get, what, $1 for free? That's not that big a deal. But because having fake currency in circulation undermines the entire system, and thus makes for serious crime, so, too, does having fake listeners and getting rich of the royalties. Who cares if Spotify's CEO can't get buy forest in Sweden, in duping the system, it undermines the drive for real actual human people to create music that other actual human people want to listen to. That there are other injustices on the world doesn't undermine this injustice being addressed. | | |
| ▲ | godwinson__4-8 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I simply don't buy that this is like copying a $1 bill. And I don't think you do either. I think one could construct a suitably objective test that would relegate certain instances of this sort of fraud to the civil courts where I think they belong. Part of the problem is conflating the private Spotify ecosystem with "the system" writ large. In any event, a civil case with appropriate punishment would serve to dissuade others from taking the same action. What does adding a prison sentence accomplish? | | |
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| ▲ | saaaaaam 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >To obtain the necessary number of songs for his scheme to succeed, SMITH turned to super intelligence, which he used to create hundreds of thousands of AI-generated songs for which he could manipulate the streams. He turned to what, exactly, Donnie? | | | |
| ▲ | yolp5 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Is every retarded influencer botting their view counts to spread antisocial content in exchange for money liable like this? If so, I think we can save America. | |
| ▲ | palmotea an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > ...which were generally created using super intelligence... > ... SMITH turned to super intelligence... Holy shit, we've got ASI? Where do I go to invest all the money I have in this breakthrough! | | |
| ▲ | avaer an hour ago | parent [-] | | This is a government renaming directive. Similar to how DoDefense is renamed to DoWar, or Gulf of Mexico is renamed to Gulf of America. It was made up one day and that's what govt publications must call it now. > Where do I go to invest all the money I have in this breakthrough! You get it. | | |
| ▲ | palmotea an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | I knew it was something dumb, I just had no idea it was dumb at that scale. | |
| ▲ | mrguyorama 42 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | The best part about all the insistence about it being the Department of War, is that Hegseth is still the secretary of defense The original purpose of the org was also explicitly defensive, with failing to prevent Pearl Harbor being an explicit influence for improving communication and cooperation between arms of the military through a combined leadership. It's like recursively, fractally stupid. |
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| ▲ | cyberpunk 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | They actually used the term super intelligence. I hate this timeline. | | |
| ▲ | rpdillon 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Article mentions they've been ordered to: > ‘Super intelligence’ is the term that President Donald Trump has ordered government employees to use in documents and statements in the place of ‘artificial intelligence’. Very disappointing. | | | |
| ▲ | 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | iAMkenough 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | If he has access to super intelligence, he shouldn’t need to scam those poor corporations. | |
| ▲ | NDlurker 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | wrs 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | The prosecutor is an employee of the executive branch, so use of that term is unfortunately not optional. | | |
| ▲ | BoxOfRain 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | How much power does this actually have in the US? I remember here in the UK when Jacob Rees-Mogg (a man known for his dedication to traditionalism) required that his staff follow a fussy style guide demanding all non-titled men be addressed as Esq and to use imperial units. As far as I'm aware, it never stuck. | | |
| ▲ | Legend2440 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | It has immense power over federal employees and exactly zero power over anyone else. |
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| ▲ | garciasn 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Generating the AI music wasn't illegal. Using bots to inflate /listens/ of an AI-generated song probably is against a platform's TOS, but isn't inherently illegal. However, using bots to collect royalties on the songs generated definitely fits within the definition of wire fraud as he was using electronic communications (i.e., the internet), to carry out a scheme to defraud streaming services of money. |
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| ▲ | Enginerrrd an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I don’t think the issue is the fact that the songs were AI generated as much as it is he faked tens of thousands of customers (presumably in free tiers) streaming the songs that he owned in order to collect royalties. That does indeed sound like garden variety fraud to me. If you and I have a contract that I’ll pay you for unique shoppers referred to my store and you just go in yourself to trigger the door counter 10,000 times wearing different disguises, it’s pretty clear that you have defrauded me. |
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| ▲ | Dylan16807 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The crime is fraud, and if he was using the service as offered he wouldn't have thousands of accounts pretending to be different people. Are any major corporations doing something similar to this, play-botting to get other people's royalty money? |
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| ▲ | paulryanrogers 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Wasn't Brave browser caught replacing ads with its own? And the Honey extension replacing / injecting referral codes? | | |
| ▲ | whstl 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > And the Honey extension replacing / injecting referral codes? Fraud in larger scale and using other people's computers. Was it ever prosecuted with the same vigour? It's a corporation so I'm gonna bet no. |
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| ▲ | Beijinger an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Likely a ToS violation. But is this enough for a crime? "“Michael Smith exploited super intelligence technology to generate a fraud,” said US Attorney Jamie McDonald. “By flooding music streaming platforms with automated bots in the place of consumers, and fake songs in the place of creativity, Smith robbed millions in royalty payments from genuine artists and their fans." This state attorney does not seem to be the sharpest tool in the box or I don't get it. 1. I don't see any possible way how he could have stolen from the fans of the artists. 2. If he stole from the artists, then this must be a fixed amount of money in the pot and the slice of the piece of the cake gets smaller, if more people withdraw. There might be such an arrangement between artists and the streaming provider but I don't know details. |
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| ▲ | ianhawes an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > he used fake email accounts and fraudulently-obtained debit cards to create the Bot Accounts If you ignore the keyword optimizing buzz-catcher press release, thats the crime right there. He used stolen debit card numbers to sign up accounts. |
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| ▲ | janalsncm 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > isn’t the United States a free market No, far from it. A free market doesn’t have regulations, subsidies, tax incentives, bailouts, etc. |
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| ▲ | paulryanrogers 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The 'free' in free markets is a spectrum. A market without anyone enforcing limits will just coalesce to a couple large player(s), and won't remain free for long. | |
| ▲ | pixl97 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | I think that's just called anarchy. |
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| ▲ | loeg an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Fraud isn't a new concept. |
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| ▲ | bayarearefugee 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > if you take advantage of the system as it was designed and gain a financial edge, you become a criminal—but if a major corporation does it, they just get a slap on the wrist. You don't even need to be a major corporation to get away with it. You can be an individual if you have the right connections. I believe what this guy did with the music streaming was wrong. But I also think whatever punishment he gets should be shared by someone who, say, lies about their 500 active user worthless company to unload it for tens of millions of dollars. But one of these people is going to jail for a year and a half and one is preparing to launch a trillion+ dollar IPO. |
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| ▲ | derekerdmann 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > What crime did he actually commit? Fraud. https://xkcd.com/1494/ |
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| ▲ | mindslight 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > It turns out that now, if you take advantage of the system as it was designed and gain a financial edge, you become a criminal Yes, exactly. Traditionally, fraud consists of lying to obtain something you wouldn't have gotten otherwise. This seems sensible, right? But corpos have figured out how to abuse this - create a long list of business-method-desires in their "terms of service" (aka the legalese diarrhea that nobody reads). The corpos then take the position that merely by using their service as presented, users have take on responsibility for representing that they will abide by the listed whims. When it turns out that users' interests differ from the corpo's whims, and a user does something they majorly don't like, they cry fraud. In the past, this was limited by the facts that 1. legalese diarrhea wasn't really involved in day to day transactions (we relied on legislative law made by public bodies rather than private law unilaterally promulgated by corpos) and 2. when you bought something, the seller's control over it simply ended. Both of those assumptions have been blown away by pervasive communications, and we really need some reform here. |
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| ▲ | yieldcrv 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| from the article, the crime was that he thought about using a payment system to transfer misrepresented income > SMITH pled guilty to one count of conspiracy to commit wire fraud the department of justice made a sophisticated music-themed plot around it because the only crime they had was too dumb |
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| ▲ | dessimus 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| [flagged] |
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| ▲ | tintor 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| [flagged] |
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| ▲ | bsoqk 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Using bots to defraud the platforms and get royalties he didn’t actually earn sounds like a crime to me, but what do I know. Maybe I should just make a Trump joke. |