| ▲ | Civilian plane crash in New Mexico tied to military GPS blocking(wired.com) |
| 190 points by dzdt 3 hours ago | 76 comments |
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| ▲ | mrngld 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| When I used to fly in Florida in the 2005-2015ish timeframe, NOTAMs for GPS interference (it didn't say that exactly but that's what it meant) were an everyday occurrence along my path, it became boilerplate. I experienced it a few times. One moment the GPS thinks you're plodding along next to Ocala, next moment it thinks I've teleported a thousand miles away, and then it'd just quit. But that's what we train for. That's why aircraft and pilots have redundancy to work around any single possible point of failure and why you practice it until it becomes natural. Because of the NOTAM I'd already have a VOR tuned in, and once the GPS went inop I just fine tuned it to get a radial fix on the VOR. Also tried to never lose my bearings with my MK I Eyeballs either. No big deal. I feel bad for everyone that lost their lives here, but this is why competence is critical. There's a litany of errors the pilots made. And the article tries to pin a bit on the controller, but no, ultimate responsibility is on the pilot in command, FAR/AIM is clear on that. If these allegedly instrument rated pilots had been properly drilled by their CFI's and properly grilled during reviews and such this should've been an easy flight. Also, "just ask Kennedy". Wired bringing that into the conversation is perhaps relevant but not in the way I think they intended. JFK Jr lacked basic airmanship skills. His aircraft was 100% functional until the moment it impacted the ocean. Some professions simply can't be go-along-to-get-along social clubs. Safety culture centered on competence and performance is key. |
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| ▲ | rbanffy an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | I guess GPS jamming was not routine for them. Had they been aware of any NOTAM regarding GPS interference, they'd be prepared, and, like you said, would have VOR setup prior to leaving the ground. | | |
| ▲ | PhaedrusV an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Checking NOTAMs is important. | |
| ▲ | 27183 22 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Systems fail for all kinds of reasons, if you're dependent on one SPOF without any backup, bad things will happen eventually. In aviation we're taught to think this way from the very beginning. Always have a spot picked out where you will attempt to land the airplane when (not if!) you lose your engine. Even in the absence of GPS jamming, you can effectively lose GPS for all kinds of reasons in a plane--a connector failing somewhere on the back of your panel, a wire chafing through, etc. GPS is nice, but it's probably a lot less reliable in most light aircraft than the other options. It's been 20yr since I've flown a plane, so maybe attitudes have changed, but my instructors always stressed the importance of always being able to fall back quickly and seamlessly to a paper chart, your watch, flight computer, and basic instruments. Because you will lose everything else at some point. | | |
| ▲ | entrope 16 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I don't think attitudes have changed on that. The last PM on my current project (in aircraft navigation) was a pilot, and he always stressed that a pilot in charge should have alternatives planned for destination and means of navigation. WSMR does enough GPS jamming that I'm surprised these pilots didn't have more experience with, or at least expectation of, it happening. |
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| ▲ | jatora an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Some of the replies you're getting are ridiculous lol. Anyways thanks for your insight. | | |
| ▲ | ceejayoz an hour ago | parent [-] | | HN threads on aviation are always a bit goofy to anyone who's actually flown a plane, yeah. | | |
| ▲ | rootsudo 25 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Very much goofy, especially when people here try to extrapolate ground stop / AOG / IROPS. True armchair warrior without any competence. | | |
| ▲ | the_af 5 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I'd say this can be generalized: threads on HN are goofy about all the kinds of things HN readers and hackers are unfamiliar with but think they have the common sense to reason about. This week I witnessed a similarly illogical argument between someone who thought they could argue about AI in movies and someone who actually works in the movie industry and has years of experience. The hacker was lecturing the movie person about why they were wrong about the future of the movie industry, with zero experience to back it up other than "I dabble in AI and watched some movies". |
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| ▲ | rdtsc an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | I never flew a plane just know enough that a visual approach means “visual” rules. Hitting a mountain at that point is hard to argue for blaming anyone else but the pilot error? Did I get it right? | | |
| ▲ | gpm 35 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | No, you didn't, because they apparently had instrument clearance from the tower at the time they crashed into the mountain. The only correct conclusion here is more investigation is necessary than what has been publicly published. | | |
| ▲ | rdtsc 25 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I read this in the preliminary report https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/G... > The flight crew again reported they “[have] a visual on Ruidoso” at 0008:30 and that they could “go visual.” The ARTCC controller subsequently cleared the flight
to SRR, cleared the flight for a visual approach, and informed them they could cancel IFR in the
air above 9,000 ft msl or they could cancel their clearance via the flight service station after
landing. So you’re pointing out that they requested VFR, got clearance for it but still were flying under IFR rules? Basically the transition to VFR hadn’t completed fully? | | |
| ▲ | sokoloff 19 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | A "visual approach" is an instrument flight rules operation. The flight was still IFR and had requested/been cleared for a visual approach, but had not switched to VFR (which they'd do by cancelling IFR). When they accepted the visual approach, they took responsibility for navigation and terrain/obstacle clearance. | |
| ▲ | gpm 18 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yes... though I'd include the subsequent quote "and responded that they would cancel IFR “in just a couple of minutes.”" Also someone is correctly pointing out to me downthread that a visual approach is technically an IFR procedure under IFR not VFR flight rules (the latter basically meaning you aren't using instruments at all). I'm assuming IFR in the summary is referring to the non-visual approach (rnav or ILS) but the preliminary report is I suppose ambiguous as to that. |
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| ▲ | theflyingelvis 25 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yes |
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| ▲ | colechristensen 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | This is unnecessarily dismissive and pre-judgmental of a situation you can't actually know very much about. Wait for the NTSB report before replying, essentially "get gud" | | |
| ▲ | jatora an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | It's pretty clear they're laying out that this is pilot error, unlike the article's intent to blame parties other than the pilot. The poster is trying to correct that, from an obvious place of knowledge and experience most of us do not have, and isn't being rude about it either. It's important to understand why things happen in order to prevent them, and to counter the narrative of the opinionated article. And if we should wait for the NTSB report, then so should the article. | | |
| ▲ | treis 4 minutes ago | parent [-] | | More than one thing can be true. Flying into the side of a mountain is an error by the pilot (obviously). It can also be true that if GPS wasn't being jammed it wouldn't have happened. |
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| ▲ | rdtsc an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Wait for the NTSB report before replying, essentially "get gud" The preliminary NTSB report points toward “get gud”. If you request a visual approach and then fly into a mountain getting “gud” will be at top of the list. | |
| ▲ | infecto 6 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Your post is overly critical, dismissive and rude. | |
| ▲ | 1123581321 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | What do you expect might change between the preliminary and the final report? | | |
| ▲ | gpm an hour ago | parent [-] | | Well for one I would expect the final report to actually come to any sort of conclusion and not just transcribe the conversations between air traffic control and the plane, and the data recorded by the plane. The preliinary report doesn't support (or contradict) the judgment that the pilots just need to "get gud" at all - it doesn't make that sort of judgment at all. For another I'd note that past investigations into accidents that at the surface were the pilot making a very bad decision have found a laundry list of underlying causes that need to be fixed. E.g. see Ontario Flight 1363 where the proximate cause was not de-icing a plane that clearly needed de-icing and the root causes after investigation were a whole lot of institutional issues. And finally at a glance I note that the air traffic control tower appears to have approved this plane flying on instruments, a procedure only allowed when "local altimeter setting [is] received" - apparently referring to GPS. In doing so they had the military disable the jamming. The pilots appear to have communicated to the tower that they would be using that approval until further notice (notice that was anticipated in a couple of minutes). And that the tower apparently without informing the pilots appears to have approved restarting the GPS jamming... I'm not an expert but if I were asked to investigate this (a thing that non-experts are sometimes asked to do, e.g. with the aforementioned flight)... I suggest that this leads to obvious alternate theories of what went wrong such as instruments they had good cause to rely on silently misleading them. | | |
| ▲ | sokoloff 29 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Your last paragraph confuses a few different things. The aircraft was completely legal to fly under IFR during the en route phase. There is no requirement for a local altimeter setting for that; center can provide an area altimeter setting (and does so on every handoff). The lack of a local altimeter setting precluded the use of the instrument approaches (the way you transition from en route phase to landing). Both of the instrument approaches are "when local altimeter setting not received, procedure NA". That equally applies to the RNAV(GPS) and ILS approaches. That doesn't make filing or flying a flight plan to that airport under IFR NA; it just means that you have to either cancel IFR or fly a visual approach (which, despite the name, is an IFR procedure). Both are legal and commonly done; you can even file an IFR flight plan to an airport that doesn't even have a published approach or to a point in space that isn't even an airport. When the pilot asked for a visual approach, they were taking on the obligation for navigating to the airport and for terrain and obstacle clearance. Smaller item: KSRR is a non-towered airport. All the relevant ATC contact was with Albuquerque Center, not with a local tower controller. (If there was a local tower controller, they would almost certainly have been able to provide a local altimeter setting, making the instrument approaches fully available.) ILS-24: https://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/2607/06922IL24.PDF
RNAV(GPS)-24: https://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/2607/06922R24.PDF | | |
| ▲ | gpm 14 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Yeah, sure, you're right, and good point about non-towered. Are you suggesting however that "The flight crew acknowledged the clearance and responded that they would cancel IFR “in just a couple of minutes.”" meant the crew was informing the tower that they would transition to VFR? That seems... unlikely. I'm reading the paraphrasing here as towards declining to cancel the ILS approach they previously requested because it doesn't particularly make sense to me otherwise. Which is really back to "this preliminary report doesn't, and doesn't even attempt to, assign blame or contain sufficient facts to do so". | | |
| ▲ | sokoloff 3 minutes ago | parent [-] | | (Per other comments, a visual approach is still an IFR operation; they were still IFR, but flying a visual approach.) It's very common to cancel IFR in the air, especially for late night operations to non-towered airports. (At an airport with an operating tower, they will close your IFR flight when you land.) At a non-towered airport, you have to either call on the phone or use a radio relay to close your flight plan, which can be a pain, so in benign conditions it's very common to cancel IFR in the air where you have line of sight [meaning good comms] to the ARTCC radio transceiver and avoid the hassle of bad cell phone coverage and/or no radio contact possible on the ground. When the crew said "we'll cancel IFR in a couple minutes", that's also common. It means "we're going to stay IFR and fly the visual until we're a little closer and landing is reasonably assured." |
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| ▲ | raverbashing an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Pilots complaining about automation: several Pilots unable to fly with all the bells and whistles and getting their ass handed to them when anything falls out of the ordinary: too many | | |
| ▲ | rootsudo 22 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Automation because of safety, latest recent example, Boeing MCAS, cost savings led to airliners crashing, pilots didn’t complain enough then nor had the proper safety because Boeing. You are not supposed to need all the “bells and whistles” to fly, a plane is a plane and a pilot is in left seat meaning to fly the plane. There are checklists and minimum equipment lists that state what is possible and how to handle failures and control. You can not automate that, yet. |
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| ▲ | SecretDreams 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I agree with your perspective re: the tone of the OP. But they hold a perspective that we should also give credence towards. Your main point is the most valid - wait for the final report. But you should be saying the same to the article as written. Prelim report: https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/G... Out of my scope to infer. | |
| ▲ | stefan_ an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Maybe you are just aren't aware that military GPS jamming is extremely routine around the US. It affects airplanes more than cars because the curvature of the earth can not help you and at typical flight altitudes you have easy line of sight to the jammer. |
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| ▲ | inoffensivename 8 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Airline captain here... A visual approach to an airport in mountainous terrain on a moonless night is very risky. In our operation, departing to an airport with missing weather reports would not be permitted, so in a Part 121 scheduled service this flight may not have been able to dispatch legally. Airliners have DME/DME triangulation which allows them to achieve area navigation (RNAV) without GPS. The interference would have precluded a GPS approach but may have left the GPWS ("Terrain! Terrain!") alerts unaffected. In this case the ILS was not available, but only because the local altimeter setting was not available. In this case I could accept a visual approach, but use the ILS to provide lateral and vertical guidance towards the runway. There are many things I have learned about flying from years at the airlines that I would have had to learn the hard way at a Part 135 or Part 91 operation. One of those things would have been when to say "no". Take the airplane to a mountainous airport with missing weather reports at night with NOTAM'd GPS interference? No. Do a visual approach on a moonless night with no GPS for terrain awareness? No. Fly the ILS even if it's NOTAM'd out. |
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| ▲ | K0balt 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| GPS is not essential to air navigation. It’s nice to have, and there are some approaches that legally require it to be operational in order to fly them (IFR procedures) but aviation has other systems in place to guide aircraft under conditions where visual flight navigation is impossible. In this case, IMHO, the pilots had become complacent and lax in their navigational rigor because of the fact that GPS makes a lot of the slightly less automated systems unnecessary, and people get used to that workflow. If the flight crew had been looking at their map and using it to inform them about the mountains in their path, fixing position by the VOR and DME, or even just a stopwatch and compass heading, they would have easily known they needed to be at a higher altitude. Not being precisely sure of their exact position, they should have at least been maintaining the minimum safe altitude for the area they knew they were in. But unfortunately, people get so used to looking at the shiny screen giving them effortless situational awareness that they forget all of the rules and habits that kept pilots alive for the last century before glass cockpits were a thing, and they forget that mountains are the tigers of the air, always waiting to catch pilots unaware. This is a useful cautionary tale not only for pilots, but increasingly for humans in general as we become accustomed to a new kind of instrument that allows us to offload a great deal of our cognitive focus to a tool that may sometimes fail. |
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| ▲ | Suzuran an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Don't worry, our government is doing their level best to make GPS the only option for air navigation. After all, we all know that technology NEVER fails, and the sooner we can turn off all those big bad old ground radars and navigation aids, the sooner we can sell all that real estate and use the money for things that the American public desperately needs, like more corporate bailouts and bathroom security cameras. | | | |
| ▲ | lbriner an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This was the partial cause of Air France 447. Pilots were so used to "the plane won't make a mistake" that they were not aware/not trained properly about things that are nothing to do with the FMS like frozen pitot tubes and also that the autopilot has a number of "modes" which mean you need to go back to basics like altitude, attitude and air speed. | | |
| ▲ | AdamN 12 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | They didn't know their air speed (because of the pitot tubes being frozen). I think the report says that there was a path to safety if they had kept focused but it wasn't as easy as just flying the plane via 'the basics'. | |
| ▲ | p-e-w 13 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | If it’s true that other navigation systems are as safe and capable as GPS, then GPS navigation should be randomly disabled in every aircraft occasionally to ensure that pilots remain fluent in using them. If it isn’t true, then the military is partially responsible for the crash of this aircraft. |
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| ▲ | inigyou 28 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I thought they were shutting down VORs to save money and relying more and more on RNAV (i.e. GPS) approaches. | |
| ▲ | scrlk an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | To add to this, there's a good lecture called Children of the Magenta Line that discusses automation dependency: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ESJH1NLMLs | | |
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| ▲ | harshreality 13 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Missing from the article is that, once the pilots reported to ATC that GPS was inoperable, ATC was going to have them circle to the right and guide them along the ILS approach, which would've avoided the worst of the mountains. ATC also asked the military to stop GPS jamming, which they did for a brief while... and the pilots probably noticed GPS start working again... except... Instead, the pilots saw the airport visually and requested a visual approach. ATC cleared them, and told the military they could resume GPS jamming, meaning any terrain awareness warning system the pilots might have had or been relying on would no longer work. The visual approach involved a left turn and descending directly over the mountains. blancolirio's video about this (second one, after the prelim investigation report): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dcyup4xVQuM He focuses on the fact that both instrument approaches were impossible under the conditions; gps jamming made RNAV impossible, and an inoperable weather broadcasting system at the destination made ILS impossible. The alternative, visual approach in mountainous terrain on a moonless night, is clearly unwise for inexperienced pilots. One thing he doesn't mention, though, is that ATC could have waited until the plane was on the ground to tell the military they could resume GPS jamming, knowing this was a medevac flight lacking the usual planning and level of caution of typical pilots. |
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| ▲ | brainlessdev an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The animation at the top is worryingly misleading. The airplane that crashed was a Beechcraft twin turboprop, and the plane maneuvered a couple of times before crashing. It had 4 people inside it. The animation uses what looks like an airliner, and shows the jamming as a sort of bubble that directly sends the airplane into a crash. I found it disturbing when I looked at it, it does not represent the story well, and I think that's irresponsible. |
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| ▲ | jcalvinowens 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The preliminary NTSB report: https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/G... |
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| ▲ | fusslo an hour ago | parent [-] | | > At 0000:26, the ARTCC controller advised the flight crew that the airplane was at 13,000 ft msl, 1,000 ft above their assigned altitude. The pilot responded that they were correcting their altitude and that the airplane had lost GPS capability. The pilot stated they would need a heading > About 0005 the ARTCC operations supervisor contacted [the military] to stop jamming and at 0007:34 ADS-B data recording returned to 2-3 second intervals. > The flight crew again reported they “[have] a visual on Ruidoso” at 0008:30 and that they could “go visual.” > About 0010, the ARTCC operations supervisor informed [the military] that the airplane was on a visual approach and that they could resume jamming. > The airplane impacted terrain about 250 ft southwest of the last recorded data point at an elevation of about 9,950 ft, and about 730 ft east and 230 ft below the Capitan Mountains Summit Radio Facility, located at an elevation of about 10,180 ft. The image of the map from the report really helps me understand the path. It seems like the aircraft began visual approach and didn't know where it was, or didn't know about the mountain. | | |
| ▲ | gpm 39 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Note that after the pilots said that they could go visual the preliminary report documents the following > The ARTCC controller subsequently cleared the flight to SRR, cleared the flight for a visual approach, and informed them they could cancel IFR in the air above 9,000 ft msl or they could cancel their clearance via the flight service station after landing. The flight crew acknowledged the clearance and responded that they would cancel IFR “in just a couple of minutes.” There were no additional radio transmissions received from the flight crew. It's not at all clear to me that they did go visual. They communicated that they intended to cancel instrument clearance later and that suggests they were still using it... |
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| ▲ | fryanyway_swe 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| We have a competency crisis that will only get worse and worse. I myself am guilty of it. Modern life is too comfortable, there is no need to fight through and put in the hours to be an expert when you can do 50% and get 90% of the paychecke. Pilots train to navigate without GPS. Or, rather, they should... |
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| ▲ | jeffbee 29 minutes ago | parent [-] | | There's always a competency shortage in this kind of aviation because the crew are inexperienced people trying to get a higher rating and a better job. The big transport aircraft are so easy to fly now, they should probably switch the rules. They can let some kid fly second seat in a 737, but only crack veterans should be allowed to touch a King Air in the dark. |
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| ▲ | seatac76 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The loss is tragic but I’m sorry GPS jamming was not a factor here. There was a NOTAM indicating it’s going on, the pilots should have been aware and it appears when they reached out with a request the jamming was stopped. It was a visual approach at a moonless night at an airport in high terrain, this was pilot error unfortunately. |
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| ▲ | sokoloff an hour ago | parent [-] | | I'll bet that the NTSB will list GPS jamming as a contributing factor. I agree with you that it's not the primary cause of the accident. |
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| ▲ | rbanffy 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| https://archive.ph/CECav |
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| ▲ | VoidWhisperer 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The final information on the crash almost reads like they hit the very top of the mountain - according to NTSB, they were about 200-250 ft from the summit, so it is possible they did still have visual with the airport until right before the impact. Whether or not GPS could've helped with this, I'm not sure - it might've allowed them to see where they were relative to the mountain better, since it was the middle of the night and so they probably couldn't see the mountain very well.. |
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| ▲ | colechristensen 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Your GPS enabled flight computer will indeed yell at you VERY LOUDLY if you're about to hit a mountain. It will not allow you to get particularly close to terrain without noticing. | | |
| ▲ | MSFT_Edging an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | I'm wondering what they could have done differently here. The report said it was a 0% moonlight night, extremely dark. No exact position from GPS, and visuals on the landing strip. That mountain peak would have likely been invisible from the pilot's seat. What would have been the "skill issue" difference people keep mentioning? It's getting really frustrating how reckless the US military is with the skies. They keep putting people in danger. I can't help but think about the DCA crash due to the continuity of government drills. There's no reason they should have been flying dark for a drill that night. | | |
| ▲ | sokoloff an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | This is a judgment issue more than a skill issue. GPS NOTAM'd as unreliable on a dark, moonless night? Fly the ILS approach (or fly a visual approach along the track of the ILS approach backing up your visual with the radio signals). That will give you terrain and obstacle clearance all along the route using locally generated navigation signals that will be entirely unaffected by GPS jamming. https://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/2607/06922IL24.PDF | | |
| ▲ | plorg an hour ago | parent [-] | | Per other comments the ILS approach was not available due to the local weather service being NOTAM'd as unavailable, couldn't set local altitude. The judgment call was effectively whether to take the flight at all, as there was effectively no instrument approach available and the visual conditions precluded VFR. | | |
| ▲ | sokoloff an hour ago | parent [-] | | The ILS approach being not legally usable as an approach due to a missing local altimeter setting does not make it unusable to back up a visual approach [or VFR arrival]. I would 100% (and have) take center's altimeter setting and fly the track of an ILS or localizer rather than "whelp, nothing can be done..." This was VMC; you don't need a local altimeter setting to be safe using the radio navaids; you would need it to legally fly the approach as an ILS approach. |
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| ▲ | colechristensen 39 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | >I'm wondering what they could have done differently here. It appears there were too many sources of confusion. GPS jamming, moonless night, busy ATC, not planning on VFR before takeoff, 20 minute short flight, instrument approach disabled, young pilots, mountains, and perhaps others. Flight safety is about removing entropy and there were several steps which could have been taken, including not flying at all because of forced VFR on a moonless night near mountains. |
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| ▲ | inigyou 26 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You say GPS-enabled. What about a GPS-jammed flight computer? Can that do it too? | |
| ▲ | voidUpdate 34 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | "TOO LOW – TERRAIN" vwoop vwoop |
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| ▲ | emilburzo an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I actually experienced GPS spoofing while paragliding near Ukraine, luckily in the daytime. I don't even want to imagine it at night on a rescue mission. Condolences to the occupants. It's quite easy to say "no big deal" while calm in an office, but it's really different when you're busy flying and then there's the extra workload of trying to understand what's happening, attempting to fix it, and so on. Imagine "debug bug in production while driving a car" for a rough comparison, although I guess planes are probably better equipped for loss of GPS? https://blog.emilburzo.com/2026/06/gps-spoofing-teleported-m... |
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| ▲ | billwear 28 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I guess there’s no way to constrain these jamming signals to some reasonable perimeter? 400 miles of overspill seems like sloppy engineering. |
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| ▲ | sokoloff 11 minutes ago | parent [-] | | The satellite GPS signals are incredibly weak. Individual GPS signals typically arrive at the antenna below the receiver’s thermal noise floor and the system relies on processing gain in the receiver to generate a fix. |
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| ▲ | bdavbdav an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It feels like if you know how far away the strip is (sounds like they did), and can get a bearing on it, they should be all set… with no GPS they should presumably have had even stronger eyes on the charts. Back when i used to sail, taking bearings with a sighting compass on two points on land / two buoys always gave you a fairly accurate position. Not sure if there is a sighting compass equivalent with elevation angle too on planes? |
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| ▲ | Ekaros an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Makes one think about "flying cars". How well designed they will be for losing such system? How reliable any systems would be in such eventuality. For both safety of the craft and anyone near them or on ground... Especially if there is other things going on like weather conditions. Say both heavy fog and rain. |
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| ▲ | Arodex 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I have absolutely no love for the US Army under its current Secretary of "war", but here the problem was with the air ambulance pilot(s). Sorry to blame people who died, who do important service for remote places under hard time constraints, but there has been fundamental errors on their side: https://bsky.app/profile/mikeblack114.bsky.social/post/3mrux... |
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| ▲ | rbanffy 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I find it a bit shocking they'd be caught by surprise by a planned GPS outage. The exercise happened as intended, and all aircraft in the affected areas should have received warnings BEFORE they even took off. These are not drug smugglers - they filed a flight plan before leaving the ground. | | |
| ▲ | gosub100 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | The automated weather service was also out. This made it difficult or impossible to use the ILS because they can't set the local altimeter. This was a swiss cheese chain of events. It was a moonless dark night so the mountains weren't visible. | | |
| ▲ | rbanffy 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Would they take off if they knew GPS would be jammed midway through the flight? Had they known they wouldn't be able to rely on GPS, all that back and forth with ATC would not be needed, and they'd already have a plan B and a plan C for navigating. It's unfortunately all slices of swiss cheese aligned perfectly, but I'd still blame the military for poking extra holes on the GPS slice. |
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| ▲ | ofcrpls 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | https://youtu.be/Dcyup4xVQuM This was discussed during the initial reporting. While the GPS jamming is an important technical issue, the broader lesson may be pilot preparedness for degraded-navigation scenarios. This accident also highlights the ongoing debate over whether accumulating flight hours is adequately complemented by realistic defensive training for GPS-denied and other abnormal operations. One technical point that initially puzzled me was why Spidertrax appeared to retain GPS coordinates while the FMS did not. My understanding is that certified FMS GPS receivers use Receiver Autonomous Integrity Monitoring (RAIM) and other integrity checks. During GPS jamming, the increased noise and degraded signal quality can cause the receiver to determine that it can no longer guarantee a reliable navigation solution, resulting in a NAV FAIL or RAIM warning. A tracking device such as Spidertrax, on the other hand being a glorified telematics grade positioning device, is designed for best-effort position reporting rather than certified navigation, so it may continue outputting an estimated position using noisy GNSS data and motion filtering, even when that solution is no longer suitable for primary aircraft navigation. | |
| ▲ | epolanski 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I too take random's words on socials over the NTSB. /s In any case the news (and ntsb report) points that they are tied, not responsibility. | | |
| ▲ | yread an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | They are not in a disagreement. From the report: SRR is serviced by two instrument approaches, the ILS or LOC RWY 24 and the RNAV (GPS)
RWY 24. Both instrument approach plate notes section contain the following statement: “When
local altimeter setting not received, procedure NA (Not Authorized).” IFR approach was not possible, the flight plan was unrealistic. | |
| ▲ | asdf88990 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Trust in governmental institutions is at an all time low. Questions must be asked about how and why we got here rather appeal to submission. |
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| ▲ | lettergram an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| After reading the story, it seems like lack of training. I think training should assume GPS goes out (which it does), in this case they didn’t pull up when they saw “lights going out” as a mountain became between them and the airfield. Air traffic control also failed here. |
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| ▲ | lbriner an hour ago | parent [-] | | Air traffic control have a very specific remit and it isn't as comprehensive as people assume. You can have "no service", "radar service" and "full service" and what they will advise you about is limited, usually, to spacing or procedural errors like "you should be less than 220 knots". A controller who has the capacity to spot something that seems off like a wrong heading or altitude might ask the plane if they are OK, but unless they are deviating from a flight plan in controlled airspace, they are more likely to assume VFR and pilot knows best. |
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| ▲ | iberator 32 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Kids fly with GPS, MEDICIORE with VFR, experts with NDB and dead reckoning |
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| ▲ | upofadown 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| A rehash of the paywalled Wired article: * https://futurism.com/science-energy/us-military-gps-jamming-... |
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| ▲ | gosub100 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Blancolirio (YouTube aviation reporter and commercial pilot) analysis: https://youtu.be/Dcyup4xVQuM?is=n0w5_tLCxEkYGtt9 |