| ▲ | eru 5 hours ago |
| > The USPS is a no-brainer public service and the only reason there is any question of its value is due to the severely broken, dysfunctional, corrupt Congress. Huh? Even Germany managed to privatise their snail mail, and approximately no one would want to renationalise it. What makes USPS a 'no-brainer public service'? What's the big benefit of having government snail mail? Mail delivery service is not a public good. It's both excludable and rivalrous. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_good > What about all the companies that send me junk mail 6 days a week? Effectively calling USPS the 'federal agency of paper spam delivery' doesn't exactly sound like a ringing endorsement? |
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| ▲ | materielle 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| I don’t know anything about Germany’s postal service. In the US, what the parent comment was getting it, is why are we even talking about this in the first place? What problem is privatization trying to solve? As an American, I have zero complaints about our postal service or how much we pay for it. Apart from the fact that I wish there were more branch offices and a few more workers at most locations. I don’t think privatization will solve either of those. Why do we need to reform something that already works? |
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| ▲ | Eridrus 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I think the problem being solved here is largely one of waste. USPS hides 9bn of unfunded pension obligations every year and underserves urban areas to subsidize rural areas. Mail volume is also generally falling as everything moves to email, so it is getting both less profitable and less critical. The US is a rich country, we can afford to waste a lot of money and not notice, and of course one person's waste is another person's easier job or subsidized service, but given the ongoing decline in the importance of mail (vs package) delivery, it's not clear that this is a particularly important utility for the government to maintain any more. | | |
| ▲ | 7bees 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'm not aware of any organization that has the same requirements to fund its future pension obligations that the USPS has. That requirement was created by Congress as part of a sustained campaign to damage the USPS. It seems like your argument is actually that Congress should rescind that requirement, so that USPS can afford to better service urban customers while continuing to be a critical lifeline to rural areas. | | |
| ▲ | eru an hour ago | parent [-] | | Well, if postal services were provided by normal private companies, then there would be none (or less) of that kind of political interference you are complaining about here. |
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| ▲ | treis 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The USPS is about $100 billion short in funds for retiree healthcare. Operationally they're slated to run out of cash shortly and that's going to get worse as they have to directly fund more and more retiree health care. | |
| ▲ | msandford 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | My problem rate with Fedex or UPS is maybe 0.1% of packages. I can't remember the last time I had a delivery issue. Just this week I had a package that was supposed to be delivered by Monday that lost tracking and didn't show up until Wednesday. It might be "basically fine and good enough" but it's definitely not "amazing and completely beyond reproach" at least in my opinion. | | |
| ▲ | Swizec 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Just this week I had a package that was supposed to be delivered by Monday that lost tracking and didn't show up until Wednesday. This is the sort of problem you solve with more funding not privatization. Here’s how these privatizations work: 1. Cut funding for public service 2. Service becomes bad 3. Cut more funding because service is bad and unused 4. Service becomes worse 5. Privatize 6. Strip the service for parts, a bunch of people get rich, classic PE stuff but worse 7. Start extracting rents, you have a nice monopoly 8. Public has no or worse service for higher cost | | |
| ▲ | msandford 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | 1. They do a really bad job because you can't get fired 2. My package is delivered late yet again 3. I don't bother calling because the other 8 times I did I wasted an hour, nobody did anything (because nobody can get fired) and I didn't get any money back 4. Look how great we're doing! Complaints are down 5. Give us more funding because we're doing such a good job This is just as likely of a spiral if we keep it publicly owned. It's also not good. How do you get good outcomes with.no accountability? |
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| ▲ | thayne 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Sure, it's not perfect, but I'm doubtful privatizing it would make it any better. And on the list of things I want fixed in the US, it is far from the top. | |
| ▲ | fn-mote 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | All shopping companies lose packages, damage packages, and fail to deliver on time as promised. The question is just about the rate it happens and the ease with which you can get restitution. Remember when Amazon’s delivery dates were commitments instead of estimates? That was interesting for me to think about in this context. | |
| ▲ | queenkjuul 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I spent many years shipping out online orders every day via UPS, Fedex, and USPS. USPS was not meaningfully worse in aggregate, UPS and FedEx still fucked up plenty | |
| ▲ | deathanatos 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > My problem rate with Fedex or UPS is maybe 0.1% of packages. I can't remember the last time I had a delivery issue. Well… I had a package being delivered, and it had missed its estimated arrival; it ended with me have a long discussion w/ their support that I'm sure was fed to /dev/null. FedEx was the carrier, it turned out, and they claimed they had attempted delivery. Problem was, they required a signature. I live in an apartment, & we have a dedicated package room. But FedEx's stance is that they can't deliver to the secure package room: they require a signature. But at my apartment, they come to the door with the street address on it. Weirdly, that is not the door with the buzzer — that's at a separate, more remote door. The delivery person is not going to take the time to find that door, assuming their corporate overlord's maximum dwell time even permits them to. So they can't buzz me. So they sticker an utterly arbitrary window on the building, and leave. The landlord clears the window. I am never notified. Somewhere this kicks around in their system until I get a call from an unknown number of "hey your package is undeliverable." But the "guaranteed" delivery date was overshot, of course. I was, of course, home the entire time. These are what spawn the "missed delivery" memes … https://xkcd.com/921/ This is a systemic problem, not just a "one time" issue: every package shipped via FedEx that requires a signature to me is undeliverable. The shipper (my bank, in this case) was also less-than-helpful: they apparently have no idea who they ship with, let alone what tracking number they used. Worse, they refused to refund me the extra I had paid to expedite the shipment (which, as you can imagine from the above, did not arrive on time; worse, the expiditing fee was extortionary…) … and this is modern capitalism these days. A fractal of bad service where the customer ends up having to do 90% of the support work. | | |
| ▲ | 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | fn-mote 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Special case pain in your rear. Sorry that happened. FYI, I am quite sure that you can provide special delivery instructions for your address to FedEx. You should try to figure out how to do that. Dealing with your bank, though… good luck with that when they don’t care. |
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| ▲ | jnellis 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| USA is large and people live everywhere, including hard to get spots. USPS just works in all those places. Privatization would discriminate against those people in a heartbeat. See: rural broadband in the US. |
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| ▲ | charcircuit 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Charging people a price relative to the cost of a service is not discrimination. | | |
| ▲ | dragonwriter 44 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | > Charging people a price relative to the cost of a service is not discrimination. Yes, it is discrimination. Treating people differently on any basis is discrimination on that basis. It may or may not be illegal discrimination depending on the specifics and the governing law, and it may or may not be unjust discrimination depending on the specifics and the applicable moral framework, but all discrimination means is differential treatment on some criteria. | |
| ▲ | Grombobulous 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Refusing service entirely kinda feels like more like something that fits the word “discrimination.” UPS/FedEx can refuse service to you for almost any reason. But, perhaps you’re right, maybe the word “discrimination” is the wrong word. Either way, from a national policy standpoint there are very good reasons to subsidize rural areas for basic infrastructure services like mail and internet. USPS from an operations standpoint is pretty much profitable. Congress basically doesn’t even allow USPS to fix itself when it absolutely can fix itself without major service cuts or privatization. For example, their pension fund can only invest in low-yield securities, while normal companies have more flexibility, so that inflates the cost of their retirement program. | | |
| ▲ | eru 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | You can auction off the universal service obligation to willing bidders without having a state owned enterprise with a government monopoly. > Either way, from a national policy standpoint there are very good reasons to subsidize rural areas for basic infrastructure services like mail and internet. Please tell me a few. | | |
| ▲ | Grombobulous an hour ago | parent [-] | | Sure! Rural areas extract and produce many resources that urban areas depend on. Agriculture, fishing, oil, gas, uranium, wood, maple syrup, etc. You can’t get workforces to live in those places or businesses to operate there if there’s no roads, internet, mail, schools, hospitals, etc (or if those things are prohibitively expensive). Don’t forget that subsidy doesn’t always mean the difference between whether it’s expensive or not, it can also mean the difference between having and not having. Another reason is that too much regional wealth inequality can be bad for national stability. It can lead to things like civil wars and unrest. |
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| ▲ | Guvante 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Germany is 4% of America in size. A single US state with decent population density wouldn't need a nationalized system either. The USPS gets a monopoly because it is required to go everywhere. If a private company doesn't want to go into Michigan it doesn't have to. Without a monopoly protection USPS goes from being slightly unprofitable to very unprofitable by companies competing only in cheap areas. Basically USPS needs $0.78 to mail a one ounce letter overall. However it doesn't need that much for you to mail within the same city, it is probably much less than that. But they do need it if you send a letter across the country. |
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| ▲ | eru 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | They could auction off a universal service obligation to willing bidders. No need to run a federal agency with a monopoly for that. (And everything you explain could also be accomplished by state-run services, no need to involve the federal level.) |
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| ▲ | Arrowmaster 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| USPS as a public entity of the US government is required to deliver mail to all addresses. I don't know all the specific details and I'm sure there's some exceptions for getting service to a new location but existing locations cannot be removed. There is daily USPS service to a postbox at the bottom of the Grand Canyon that is only accessible by mule paths. I guarantee this service would either be cancelled or go up in cost to thousands of dollars per letter if USPS was privatized. The sheer size and remoteness of parts of the USA is why it's a public good. https://facts.usps.com/8-mile-mule-train-delivery/ |
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| ▲ | jltsiren 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Public goods can be contracted out to private entities. And this can be done independently in each region, without having a single central contractor. EU countries privatized their postal services decades ago, because governments are not allowed to compete with private entities in the market (unless explicitly allowed by EU-wide laws). And because the idea felt good, the same privatization extended to territories outside the EU, such as Greenland. | |
| ▲ | eru 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > There is daily USPS service to a postbox at the bottom of the Grand Canyon that is only accessible by mule paths. I guarantee this service would either be cancelled or go up in cost to thousands of dollars per letter if USPS was privatized. You say that like it's a bad thing. Why does a hill billy who insists on living at the bottom of the Grand Canyon deserve a subsidy? That public money would be better spend helping poor people. | | |
| ▲ | Arrowmaster an hour ago | parent [-] | | > Why does a hill billy who insists on living at the bottom of the Grand Canyon deserve a subsidy? I'm going to say this nicely once instead of the reply I really wanted to say because I'll give you the benefit of the doubt of not knowing or looking it up. Because it provides postal service to the Havasupai people living on their native land at the bottom of the Grand Canyon. Would you like to take a guess as to why Supai, Arizona, the capital of the Havasupai Nation, is located at the bottom of the Grand Canyon. |
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| ▲ | owenthejumper 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| For one, Germany is a densely populated country smaller than the state of California. I think we can stop there? There is really almost no comparison to the US in terms of rural areas anywhere in Europe. |
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| ▲ | eru 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Just split the US into 50 individual territories, if you think that being small is a benefit in service provision. > There is really almost no comparison to the US in terms of rural areas anywhere in Europe. Why do rural people deserve subsidies by virtue of living in the sticks? |
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| ▲ | garbagewoman 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| What were the benefits to germany? |
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| ▲ | eru an hour ago | parent [-] | | Lower prices, bigger volume in the market. And the privatised Deutsche Post (/ DHL) is now a world beating logistics company that makes plenty of profit, instead of subsidies and bleeding red ink all over. However Germany still has plenty of government interference in snail mail, like a universal service mandate (or a sector specific minimum wage). Denmark dropped that requirement, and Danish society hasn't collapsed so far. |
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| ▲ | thayne 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Post is a natural monopoly, at a national scale. It is much more efficient to have a single centralized service doing all mail delivery than several competing services doing the same. It isn't completely non-rivalrous, but the marginal cost of delivering a parcel diminishes as the number of parcels delivered in an area goes up. |
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| ▲ | eru 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Post is a natural monopoly, at a national scale. It evidently is not. There's multiple providers. |
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| ▲ | notnaut 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| If the USPS were fully privatized without strict government subsidies or mandates, rural and remote Americans would likely face exorbitant delivery surcharges or lose service entirely. Once again… the United States is very large. |
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| ▲ | eru 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > [...] rural and remote Americans would likely face exorbitant delivery surcharges [...] Surfacing the cost of service provision to end users is generally a good tool to align incentives. (Use welfare systems to give money to poor people. But don't worry about giving rich people support just because they are old or live in the sticks.) |
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| ▲ | redsocksfan45 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
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