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throwaway198846 5 hours ago

Can they ship it outside the EU and then destroy it? What happens if truly nobody wants those clothes? Why not just put a carbon tax per weight?

everforward 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I don’t think that solves the issue they want to fix. The issue is brands that are stylish destroying clothing that’s now out of style (preserving brand value).

The price point is already high enough that taxing raw materials doesn’t really push the needle on price, they’ll just pass the costs on.

Utilitarian brands already don’t want to destroy clothing because their customers are price sensitive.

This forces the brands to do something with excess clothing. I suspect they’ll do whatever is the closest to destroying the clothing, like recycling them into rags or shredding them for dog bed filler or something. Maybe even just recycling them back to raw fibers.

nine_k 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

How recycling by shredding is not destroying?

If the regulation specifically prohibits burning, it makes sense, as a measure to limit unproductive CO₂ emissions.

steanne 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

i would think chanel quilts would sell very well

nine_k 3 hours ago | parent [-]

But what do you do with unsold Chanel quilts?

otterley 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Turn them into insulation! This is what happens with old denim jeans: https://www.henry.com/residential/products/insulation/denim-...

onionisafruit 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Chanel; the ultimate luxury insulation.

anigbrowl 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Cut the price, this is basic microeconomics.

slaymaker1907 an hour ago | parent [-]

That is not what they should do according to microeconomics because luxury goods are Veblen goods. Decreasing price would lower demand, at least until they lowered it enough that it was no longer a Veblen good.

Basic microeconomics is just that: basic and thus an oversimplification.

whateverboat 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Donations would already be a great thing. This law makes it feasible in boardrooms to justify donations. Donations to shelters, developing countries and otherwise.

Galanwe 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

My wife worked for a cloth upcycling association (finding sustainable future for discarded clothes).

Reality is, there is just 10x more thrown out clothes in the west that any third world country on earth could need, same for shelters.

Associations distributing clothes to developing countries / shelters are filtering tightly what they accept.

In short, the vast majority of thrown out clothes in the west are just crapwear that not even the third world want. There are entire pipelines of filtering and sorting to only keep and distribute the good quality clothes.

jjkaczor 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That has already been happening for decades - and it isn't the "net benefit" most think it is - here is just one example - but there are dozens of similar articles that can be found:

https://www.udet.org/post/the-hidden-cost-of-generosity-how-...

saubeidl 4 hours ago | parent [-]

You can steer where donations go with regulations. I don't see any downsides of warm coats to homeless shelters for example.

jacquesm 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Man it would really make my day if all the homeless people started walking around in Prada and Gucci. That would probably be just thing to kill off these brands for good.

xp84 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

How would we tell if the homeless started wearing Balenciaga though? Most of that trash already looks like it was lifted off the back of a homeless person (and one who is hard on his clothes)!

jjkaczor 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I think this was predicted in that "documentary"... hmmm, Zoolander... with the fashion-line "Derelicte"...

3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
blell 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Why do you want those brands to die?

jjkaczor 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Why do you want those brands to exist?

Some perspectives would say that they serve no real purpose other than performative wealth display and distribution. They appeal to everyone at fundamental psychological levels to "fit in" with a popular trend or "in group".

Their actual quality is often no better than other manufactured goods. It is their perceived quality and style that are the entire reason their brands exist.

(and... I can admit that certain "luxury brands" are definitely appealing to me personally, even if they make little "logical sense" to own - maybe not clothing so much, but... watches...)

blell 3 hours ago | parent [-]

The opposite of “Why do you want those brands to die?” is not “Why do you want those brands to exist?”.

ninalanyon 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Perhaps not but in the context of this discussion and legislation it is pertinent question to ask, perhaps not of you specifically but of the wider audience.

digiown 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Brand value particularly for commodity products is usually just a form of information asymmetry between consumers and suppliers, and creates economic inefficiency since it diverts expenditure from other products that can materially improve lives. It also allows enshittification to happen since it creates inertia (brand loyalty) to switching, and the positive brand image sticks around for longer than the actual good quality products.

jjkaczor 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

That is a slightly different scenario than taking cheap "fast fashion waste", compressing it into bales, shoving it into shipping containers, transporting/dumping it and flooding local countries/markets.

(And many of these large shipments do not end-up as donations by the time they get to their destination, but are actually sold by weight and then resold again)

But yes - distribution/logistics of donated goods needed to those who need them should be a "solved problem", but unfortunately it is not - regulations could help. (In countries/regions where governments actually WANT to regulate and then subsequently FOLLOW the regulations rather than cancel, ignore or throw them out entirely... Pretty sure everyone knows which country I am referring too...)

saubeidl 4 hours ago | parent [-]

I would hope that that will also be a policy area the EU addresses as part of this regulatory push.

kube-system 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Aren’t there already advantages to donating? I.e. Tax advantages, and a lack of disposal cost?

I think the reason that brands don’t want to donate is because they don’t want their brands to be associated with poor people.

KellyCriterion 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Ive read some years ago that companies do not donate and destroy instead because of whatever wierd tax-regulation

smt88 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What developing country do you think has a clothing shortage?

saubeidl 4 hours ago | parent [-]

What about the poor in their own countries that might not be able to afford clothes?

ozgrakkurt 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

But then the prices might drop and the shareholders might lose value.

Rather have all people spend all of their money to the cent to buy clothes, to pay rent and to buy water tbh

WarmWash 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The shareholders losing value means that either all clothes drop to shein quality or they just stop making clothes.

anigbrowl 2 hours ago | parent [-]

OK. We were told creative destruction is good, if some companies exit the market and are replaced by others that offer better value then resources are being allocated more efficiently, no?

WarmWash 13 minutes ago | parent [-]

Just like other companies came along and offered a better Sears catalog when the internet killed their revenue?

People don't voluntarily lose money. Understand that and the world will way more understandable.

saubeidl 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

If the shareholders are rich because the poor are not clothed then fuck the shareholders and the system that made them rich.

smt88 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Any name brand would rather send their unsold clothes to a landfill in India rather than allow their wealthy customers to see poor people wearing the clothes.

saubeidl an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Which is why you write regulations to ban that. Hence, this thread.

bluebarbet 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

A perhaps inadvertent but nicely succinct indictment of capitalism.

philipallstar 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's very very easy to spend much less on clothes. Buying a new handbag every 6 months vs maintaining a bag for 20 years isn't that much different in terms of effort, but one is unbelievably more expensive.

cindyllm 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

seydor 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

donations are just an excuse to dump them on poor countries

mbeavitt 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

if you read the article...

Instead of discarding stock, companies are encouraged to manage their stock more effectively, handle returns, and explore alternatives such as resale, remanufacturing, donations, or reuse.

I guess remanufacturing/reuse might be the intended solution if it's absolutely not to be worn.

throwaway198846 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Well one link deeper says "Restrict the export of textile waste" but I'm still unclear why they preferred these measure over a carbon tax.

Edit: "To prevent unintended negative consequences for circular business models that involve the sale of products after their preparation for reuse, it should be possible to destroy unsold consumer products that were made available on the market following operations carried out by waste treatment operators in accordance with Directive 2008/98/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council3. In accordance with that Directive, for waste to cease to be waste, a market or demand must exist for the recovered product. In the absence of such a market, it should therefore be possible to destroy the product." This is a rather interesting paragraph which seems to imply you can destroy clothes if truly nobody wants it.

randomNumber7 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

European politicians will wear the clothes nobody wants so they can be decommissioned lawfully.

lores 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This kind of reply is so cliché it's tiresome. "Someone makes small step to avoid waste and environmental damage" -> "if it's not perfect it's no good at all, let the free market sort it out at t=infinity".

Guess what, the free market doesn't give a shit as long as the executives make their millions.

xp84 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Where even are all the people wandering around naked for lack of clothes? There's so much donated clothing already out there. And the homeless here mainly 'need clothes' because they have no way to wash their clothes. It'd be less wasteful to get them access to laundry facilities. And the developing world always gets the "PATRIOTS - Super Bowl LX Champions" gear and a ton of other cast-offs - I doubt they need more.

To me this whole regulation sounds like a bunch of virtue-signaling politicians wanted to pat themselves on the back.

lores 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Then fewer clothes will get manufactured, which is exactly the goal.

oblio an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

You sound American, so why do you even care? Have fun in the land of the free.

sschueller 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Why would you over produce something no one wants?

Also if really no one wanted it, why are companies destroying the items instead of giving them away?

JasonADrury 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>What happens if truly nobody wants those clothes

In theory companies would eventually be forced to produce less items nobody wants, although this is just an additional incentive in that natural process.

ch4s3 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

That doesn't really make sense, losing your whole investment is already a strong incentive to not produce something you can't sell.

grayhatter 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Assume the legislation is trying to reduce a real problem. Why does that problem exist if that incentive is actually really strong in practice?

I assume it's not actually a really strong incentive in context.

ch4s3 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> Assume the legislation is trying to reduce a real problem

Why assume that? Could you not imagine that legislation is often meant to signal values to voters as much or more than it is intended to solve real problems.

grayhatter an hour ago | parent [-]

> Why assume that? Could you not imagine that legislation is often meant to signal values to voters as much or more than it is intended to solve real problems.

You mean something like, to signal to voters they're trying to solve a problem voters want changed? Or a problem voters say they have?

I didn't mean to imply it would fix the problem, or that the problem would be fixed. Just that there's desire for [thing targeted], is something enough people would want to change.

I also said "assume that" for the sake of the argument/discussion given you started by saying you didn't understand. I say it's trivial to understand if assume there are other incentives where destroying the product is desirable. Thus making the incentive you mentioned, not very strong, (in context).

JasonADrury 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A factory might have a minimum order quantity of 10000 units for a product. The products cost $1 landed.

You know you can sell 4000 of those products for a total of $15k.

This might become a bad deal if dealing with the 6000 extra units costs you money.

em-bee 3 hours ago | parent [-]

maybe this will force factories to change their process. with manufacturing getting cheaper, smaller batches become affordable. at the extreme we can now print books on demand, and improved 3D printing allows one-off items in many more areas. that's the trend we need to push. to get away from wasteful mass production.

wahnfrieden 6 minutes ago | parent [-]

Push how? Through regulation? Unclear how else you’d achieve this if it is still worse economically. Buyers don’t want to pay more either.

randomNumber7 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You can produce so little people take anything you give them - like it was in the Soviet union.

wahnfrieden 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Clothing has a huge profit margin (when manufactured overseas) especially at the higher end (for brands which do not invest in local production, which is most, because it is also hard to beat Chinese quality). It's better for these brands to over-produce on some items and lose the low-cost inventory, than to under-produce and not meet market demand, to not offer a range of sizes and varieties to meet individual taste, and not achieve wide distribution that's necessary to grow market demand. That's why regulation is needed here.

ch4s3 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I get he economics, but I don’t think it follows that it’s a problem governments need to involve themselves in.

wahnfrieden 8 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

What’s your big idea

ragall 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You might not think that, but EU citizens think otherwise.

osigurdson 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I would think the incentives to produce things no one wants would already be pretty low.

JasonADrury 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Supplier MOQs can create significant incentives to overproduce. For example, you get 9000 things someone wants and 1000 that no-one wants.

This can be profitable for the customer, if they can't just easily get rid of those 1000 they can't sell, it's presumably less profitable.

osigurdson 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Presumably the split between things people want and do not want is not known a priori. It seems the EU is trying to legislate into an existence a solution to an unsolvable equation.

JasonADrury 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Not really, the EU is just introducing additional weighing in favor of smaller order quantities.

xp84 3 hours ago | parent [-]

They are -- so I hope Europeans will remember this when they have more trouble finding the size and color they need. If you can't throw anything away you do have to underproduce to avoid being stuck with crap that no one wants, is illegal to throw away, and can't even be recycled (because that would be 'destroying' the clothes, wouldn't it?)

So you have to underproduce always, and maybe not even make things that aren't a safe bet to sell out.

JasonADrury 3 hours ago | parent [-]

You can just donate them. If no one will take them, you are in fact allowed to destroy the products when it's "the option with the least negative environmental impacts".

StopDisinfo910 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Overproducing is often cheaper than losing sales because of the fixed costs of producing a batch and the externalities of destroying your inventory not being priced in. Some brands also find it more interesting to destroy stocks than reduce prices because it protects their brand values. Well, now, that's illegal.

vscode-rest 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

slaymaker1907 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This already happens a lot for used clothes with the thrift store->poor country->landfill pipeline. That third step will likely be a lot less rare with new clothes.

Seattle3503 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It seems like countries will do anything but tax carbon.

Y-bar 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Carbon is not the only concern here, it is also excessive water use, excessive land use, higher logistics pressure on ports and such which can be reduced if these are made to a higher quality and a reduced quantity.

kleiba 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/eu/carbon-taxes-europe-20...

olalonde 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

For the same reason tax codes are complex. If you have a simple law, there's no way for a politician to say to a group of people: "If you vote for me, I will get you a special favour".

riffraff 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> What happens if truly nobody wants those clothes?

from TFA

> companies are encouraged to manage their stock more effectively, handle returns, and explore alternatives such as resale, remanufacturing, donations, or reuse.

Worst case would be recycling the fibers, presumably.

cm2012 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Which in many cases is less environmentally efficient than the alternative

is_true 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

yep, they do https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2021/11/8/chiles-desert-du...

abecode 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Maybe they could bury the clothes and call it carbon sequestration. I assume that clothes are made of mostly hydrocarbons.

nine_k 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Won't fungi and bacteria eat (cellulose-based) the clothes, releasing the same amount of CO₂, only a bit slower? Synthetic fabrics can likely be buried as a form of carbon sequestration though.

kwanbix 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Maybe donate it to poor countries?

When I used to work for the biggest ecommerce in europe, we had various stages for clothes. The last stage was selling the clothes by kilo to companies.

jjkaczor 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

That has already been happening for decades - and it isn't the "net benefit" most think it is - here is just one example - but there are dozens of similar articles that can be found:

https://www.udet.org/post/the-hidden-cost-of-generosity-how-...

WalterBright 4 hours ago | parent [-]

> Imported secondhand clothing is sold at prices that local textile producers cannot compete with. As a result, local garment industries collapse, unable to survive against the flood of cheap imports. Hence, jobs are lost in manufacturing and design, stifling innovation and economic growth.What was intended as charity often becomes a form of economic sabotage.

Isn't that another version of the Broken Window Fallacy? Destroying things to create jobs re-creating them is a net loss.

xp84 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Well, it's pretty hard to generalize that to the entire globe, or universe. Imagine if an alien race started landing thousands of crates on Earth full of cars, computers, clothes, etc. Every day for 30 years the crates come, all of it's free. Several dynamics can arise:

1. The elites grab the crates and hoard them, leveraging their existing power to make sure they enrich themselves and extend their power. They sell the items, but at a lower price than the Earthly-produced items, which is easy since they have 100% margin.

2. Whether or not #1 happens, it becomes impractical to make any of these goods for a living, so people stop. Eventually, the factories are dismantled or simply crumble.

Now Earth is dependent on the aliens to keep sending the crates. If the aliens ever get wiped out, or just elect a populist who doesn't like to give aid to inferior planets, then we won't have any cars, or clothes, or computers.

jjkaczor 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

We don't even need to bring aliens into this scenario - as this is the direction we are already heading towards with fully automated manufacturing and AI replacing vast sectors of human labour...

(And yeah, I get it - no one "really" wants to work on a "soul-crushing" assembly/production-line... People want to make art (or games) or write novels... (both areas of creative work which are ALSO being targeted by AI)... but people definitely want to "eat" and have shelter and our whole system is built on having to pay for those priviledges...)

WalterBright 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Or people do other things.

Around 1800, 95% of people worked on the farm. Today it is 2%. People do different things now.

ragall 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Whether or not is a net loss for the planet as a whole is irrelevant. Africa countries need jobs to sustain a middle class so they no longer accept donations of clothes.

WalterBright 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Just send them money, then, rather than breaking windows to provide fake jobs.

ragall 2 hours ago | parent [-]

You can start if you wish.

em-bee 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

this is not destroying things to create jobs. this is about globalization negatively affecting local culture. clothing especially represents culture. if people can not afford to create their own clothes then that has a negative effect on their culture as a whole.

WalterBright 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I don't see how localized culture clothing styles would be destroyed by importing different styles from other countries.

em-bee 8 minutes ago | parent [-]

nobody buys the local style because it is more expensive than the imported stuff. as a result the local style dies out, or it doesn't get a chance to be developed in the first place.

subscribed 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don't think these companies want the poor people to wear their brand.

They'll find another way to destroy them.

2018 article reports that Burberry destroyed £28 millions worth of clothes to keep their brand "exclusive": https://www.bbc.com/news/business-44885983

pySSK 2 hours ago | parent [-]

The intended effect of the law is that they get better at planning. It requires supply chain innovation similar to what happened in the automotive industry decades ago with JIT manufacturing. They can borrow from fast-fashion but now there’s a penalty for over producing.

docflabby 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Most clothes are manufactured in countries with cheaper labor costs to cut costs - the reality is clothes are cheap to make in terms of raw materials- and dumping unwanted clothes will just destory the local economy

smt88 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Poor countries don't need clothes. They have clothes. It's just more (mostly plastic pollution) that fills their landfills and rivers.

https://atmos.earth/art-and-culture/the-messy-truth/

kube-system 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Just because a country has clothing in it doesn’t mean all of the people in that country have clothing. There are people in rich countries that need clothes. Clothing wears out, it’s a perpetual need and perpetually disposed.

philipallstar 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The world makes clothes incredibly cheaply. Any country can solve this problem if it wants to. It doesn't need silly fashion clothes shipped from America to do so.

kube-system 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Absolutely poverty is just a distribution problem. But ultimately somebody has to step up to do the distribution to solve it. It doesn’t really matter who. But given that the problem still exists, there’s not enough people stepping up in the right places.

smt88 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

What country has a clothing shortage? Be specific.

The most desperate povert I've ever seen was in India. You know what people were using to make tents to live in? Clothes.

Poor people have been making clothes for thousands of years without any help from heavy industry, and it's incredibly cheap to produce long-lasting cotton clothing.

Clothing isn't really a perpetual need the way you frame it. A single garment can last decades if it's synthetic or allowed to fully dry between uses.

pfp 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I wouldn't be surprised if they "sold" (at a nominal price) the extra stock to a company outside the union for "resale" (burning in India or dumping into the ocean)

What we really need is 10x more expensive, durable clothing that you buy every 10 years. And the cultural shift to go along with it. Not Mao suits for everyone but some common effing sense. But I guess that's bad for business and boring for consumers, so...

pc86 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I'm not particularly big into fashion (I think my newest clothes are 4-5 years old), but why is the thing you want "common [expletive] sense" and someone choosing to spend their money a different way, by extension, nonsensical?

pfp 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Ah yes, the classic HN hair splitting meta-argument. No.

pc86 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I'm not sure you know what hairsplitting means, but I am sure "No." is an answer to some question, just not the completely reasonable one I asked.

kube-system 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

What they’re getting at is not hairsplitting. Your argument presumes that the purpose of clothing is utilitarian in nature. That it exists merely to cover our bodies efficiently.

Clothing also has an anthropological function as fashion. That might not be something that you are personally interested in, but it is factually something that provides value to society.

You are certainly entitled to the opinion that fast fashion is not a good thing. But it’s just an opinion.

philipallstar 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It's just boring for consumers. Business provides value to customers. Customers dictate what gets produced. And there are customers (e.g. me) who do keep things for a longer amount of time - there's a reason why generally men's clothing makes up around 20% of the total clothing shopping floor space in any given city.

331c8c71 27 minutes ago | parent [-]

> Customers dictate what gets produced.

Sure? It seems to me that the companies dictate what I consume. Many many times I wanted to buy exactly the same clothes item or shoes to replace an old one (because I know exactly how it'd fit and wear) only to discover it has been discontinued with no obvious "heir". Sometimes only 6 months later...

Whats the percentage of people chasing "fashion", especially after mid 30s?

RamblingCTO 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Outlets could be a key here.

smt88 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I suspect this end up like US "recycling" of plastic: pay another country to "reuse/recycle" the waste, and that country then dumps it in a landfill, dumps it in the ocean, or burns it.

throwuxiytayq 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

They should pay people to wear them.