Somalia is the best place on Early, then?

Democracy isn't supposed to be two wolves and a sheep voting on who to eat for dinner. There are supposed to be checks and balances.

One reason we are in the current situation is because we have discarded these checks and balances, allowing for the president to behave more like an autocratic monarch. If the other branches of government were performing their constitutional function, and if the executive observed the norms it's supposed to that's when you would have a democracy not just in letter but in spirit.

(Ironically I myself am an immigrant and a naturalized citizen, yet I find I know more about American civics than most US-born.)

No, I'm using democracy in the regular way that ordinary people use it: representation through a voting process, non violent transfer of power because it is better than the altneratives. That means that you expect your government to take care to some degree of the interests of all subjects, not just of those that happen to be 'on top' in this cycle.

Your endless efforts at pretending that this kind of cruelty is what 'America' wants - rather than that it is just a reflection of what you want - are painting the majority of the country with a color of paint they do not deserve.

You speak for yourself, and as such you have - repeatedly, incessantly - shown yourself to be roughly HN's resident Ali Alexander. I refuse to believe that the majority of the United States voted consciously for 'mass deportations', and everybody that is cheering this one should think carefully at which point they will find themselves on the receiving end of the cruelty.

I suspect that you will continue to dig in on this until the very moment that you become personally affected, and maybe, just maybe then you'll have the guts to admit that you were wrong all along.

You're using "Orwellian" in an Orwellian way. What do mass deportations have to do with this bizarre sudden policy change that leaves people scrambling with a 15 hour window? You're claiming this is exactly what people had in mind when they voted?

Democracy is broken because here's a candidate whose entire premise (that America somehow isn't great and needs to be made great again) is made-up, and a significant proportion of the population just believe it.

Democracy is when my candidate wins and does things I want.

When 51% of the eligible voters voters cast their votes to genocide the remaining 49% percent of eligible voters (which is not what happened of course), it doesn't matter whether genocide actually happens or not to determine that it's not in fact a functioning democracy.

It sounds like a contradiction, but it's not, because the critique of a democratic society doesn't have to be limited to a decision process that leads to certain behavior, but both to the problem that triggered it and the solution that the system had produced.

Democracy is little more than a mechanism for non-violent transfer of power among elites.

We rely on things other than democracy to protect minorities. Institutions, laws, restraints on power; things the committed democrat believes are unjust constraints on the Will of the People.

It's Tyranny of the Majority - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority

I propose a new form of government. I call it "liberal democracy". The gist is that when liberals are in power they make sure that fascist never get in power again. (So it's not a democracy, only in name.) E.g. they can make fascism illegal, and don't allow them to run for seats. This has the following advantages:

Over democracy: no danger for it to swing into fascism or autocracy.

Over autocracy: bad governments can be replaced.

Additionally, in practice, it should feel the same that we were having for ages when liberal parties were on power. (Proof?)

Probably this is the mythical "better than democracy" form of government that we are all waiting for?

Thoughts?

I don't believe the average American cares about the concerns raised in this thread. Most of them don't have the slightest understanding of how their immigration system works.

I do think that no one would accept this kind of mismanagement if it were to affect them.

Let's say by executive order they make tax day Feb 1st on January 30th. And everyone who's late will pay a hefty fine. See how that would go....

This is no way to make policy, no matter the form of government

"Government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem" has been sedition that has been let to spread and rot at our foundations for decades now, growing only stronger. There is absolute bedlam and insanity pushed to American voters, completely made up fictionalized reality, blasted out by Fox News and worse. People live in the most absurd hyperreal simulation, built entirely around hating government, disbelief of the state, and disdain for civil society civil rights and decency.

The extremeification of American politics by the right has totally crippled the state. Business can sometimes come in an extract wins for itself, but everyone else loses. The political gamesmanship begat by Hastert rule, where wins must never be bipartisan wins, has decayed the government, betrayed the nation.

I'm so so tired of such loud utterly decoupled unhinged sedition, against the state against reality.

My favorite recurring threads these days is a simple one: society that wants to keep functioning has to disincentivize baldfaced lying, especially by authorities

There was evidence of voting machine fraud, though.

I see this point being made a lot.

Lets be clear - the election was won on inflation. While a lot was said about 47th's previous record it was often brushed aside with - Sure, this was said last time too and he didn't do any of this. Its the same thing all over again, people crying wolf etc. There was even consternation about Project 2025 and many well minded people didn't believe it would be enacted.

Now the approval rating on handling of economy continues to fall day by day. Immigration was the strongest suit at +10 is now under water at -4.5.

That means while voters might have wanted something to be done about immigration but they might not wanted more of this. This will become clear only during the midterm elections. With all the efforts being made to gerrymander and gain as many seats as possible, it is good guess to say GOP also realize that people didn't want more of this - and the only way now is to hold on to power by any means necessary.

So, that it allows others to say - This government was elected in Nov 2024 and if they are doing this terrible thing then surely people have voted for this.

I don't know @jacquesm's intent, but I read "bill" as in "invoice", not as in "proposed new law".

Bold of you to assume there will be a “next adult”.

No, reagan who was a giant f'n racist.

Don't pretend these policies are anything but white supremacy and religiousity. Reagan just was dog whistling, which is why the mask is off.

But I wouldn't stop at reagan, this is all regression to Nixon and the equal rights amendments.

> who stood up to Russia/China, generally represented American interests

He did not represent American interests. He hollowed out this country and sold us up the river.

"Return in 15hr or pay $100k"

I didn't see that on Bernie's website.

What a ridiculous and asinine comment

When their identically leveled peers earn $300k.

Exactly. At this point, I think American businesses need to be forced back toward hiring Americans at legal gunpoint, with the exception of extremely high-skill immigrants (we still need to attract brains). But of course there was never a chance in hell this administration could implement such a complex thing without glaring holes, incompetence, and cruelty.

To echo a sibling comment: freedom, not salary, is under question. Agreement should not be given one time at sign up, it needs to be given continuously. High cost associated with being compelled to leave the country upon quitting, low mobility between employers, etc. reduce that freedom.

Worth reading about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_labour, it's not just the practice of chattel slavery, and various forms are still legal in the US.

The free part of slavery is about freedom, not payment. It was not uncommon for enslaved people to buy their way out of enslavement.