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aynyc 2 days ago

I'm slowly starting to think that NATO/EU is using Ukraine as a trench war test ground. Ukraine right now needs to invest in offensive capability, not defensive capability. If they don't bring the war to Russia in full scale, it'll never end.

In simplest term, it's like your neighbor parks their car on your driveway, you get police to issue fines, or maybe even get it towed. But your neighbor has money, so they keep paying fines, etc.. Your whole neighborhood supports you, so they would call the cops for you, go to town hall and all of that. In the end, you'll never win and get your parking space back. The only way is to park your and all your supporters' cars in their driveway, give them a taste of their own medicine.

nickff 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

>"I'm slowly starting to think that NATO/EU is using Ukraine as a trench war test ground. Ukraine right now needs to invest in offensive capability, not defensive capability. If they don't bring the war to Russia in full scale, it'll never end."

Most long wars in the last century become trench wars; maneuver warfare is too expensive (in terms of materiel) to sustain between adversaries who are at all balanced; the Iran-Iraq War is a good example of this. Additionally, most small/proxy wars are used as testing grounds for either validating new weapons, or checking the viability of old/expired munitions; Ukraine is being used this way, but so was Libya.

It seems that any decisive action is too risky for Western leaders to contemplate. Western leaders seem willing to 'stir the pot' in places like Libya, Syria, and Ukraine, but never want to commit decisive resources. The threat of nuclear escalation seems to be too high for the minuscule popularity that one might win as a victor in Ukraine. Non-nuclear countries (Belgium, Netherlands, Italy, Canada, etc.) could commit ground and air forces to Ukraine's aid with little to no risk of any consequences, but even they are unwilling to do so. The sad part is that the lesson being taught here is that China will be able to conquer Taiwan with almost no risk of foreign intervention, no matter how long it takes them.

nradov 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

NATO members really can't commit their own forces directly in Ukraine. There's an enormous difference between supplying weapons versus engaging in direct combat. A middle ground would be to encourage volunteers from their own militaries to join the Ukrainian military, and not prosecute them for violating neutrality laws.

nickff a day ago | parent [-]

What neutrality laws? Germany and Japan have laws about what sort of military deployments they’re allowed to make, but I’m not aware of many others. NATO members get involved in non-NATO conflicts all the times; see France’s Mali operations, as well as Turkey’s meddling in Syria (along with the USA), and British involvement in Libya (along with many others).

nradov a day ago | parent [-]

I'm not familiar with the laws in those particular countries but many countries have neutrality laws that prohibit their citizens from serving in foreign militaries.

sillywalk a day ago | parent | next [-]

Canada still has the Foreign Enlistment Act[0].

"Any person who, being a Canadian national, within or outside Canada, voluntarily accepts or agrees to accept any commission or engagement in the armed forces of any foreign state at war with any friendly foreign state or, whether a Canadian national or not, within Canada, induces any other person to accept or agree to accept any commission or engagement in any such armed forces is guilty of an offence."[0]

There are questions on whether it applies (from 2022):

"Gordon Campbell, a military and criminal lawyer at Aubry Campbell MacLean, told CTVNews.ca that the Foreign Enlistment Act only applies to Canadians who formally enlist with a foreign military, and is not convinced it applies at all in this situation. He says it is not clear whether Russia is considered “friendly” or not to Canada in this situation, in the legal sense.

“I know others have speculated that Russia might not fall into that category,” he said in a phone interview. “I certainly would not be that certain on the point… We're not at war with Russia, but the word ‘friendly,’ is never defined in the act, so who knows.”

Campbell said those volunteering in Ukraine have to understand that they could be charged in Canada under Canada’s Criminal Code or under the Ukrainian legal system, depending on the circumstances.

“If you're a Canadian and you've travelled abroad and you engage in certain acts, then you can -- in theory -- be prosecuted inside Canada for those acts,” he said.

“Just because you're in the middle of a conflict doesn't exempt you from Canada's criminal laws.”[1]

[0] https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/F-28/FullText.html

[1] https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/article/legal-questions-abound...

nickff 21 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I was saying that Belgian, Canadian, and other countries could send their armies (and other armed forces) to fight the Russians in Ukraine.

nradov 12 hours ago | parent [-]

No, they really can't do that. It's a stupid thing to say. Consider the consequences.

tim333 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

The situation is a fair bit different with Taiwan.

Firstly "In April 2001, George W. Bush publicly announced the American defense of Taiwan"..."This framework was approved by President Donald Trump in 2018" (wikipedia)

Secondly there's a sea in between China and Taiwan meaning it could largely be defended by a no fly zone. In Ukraine once Russia troops have crossed the border it isn't easy to get rid of them without a lot of messy ground warfare.

ponector 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

First point means nothing, Russian occupation proved it both in 2014 and 2022. Security assurance from USA doesn't mean anything.

nickff 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I agree with you on both counts, but I'm not sure I would count on any president post-GWB to actually defend Taiwan. Nobody seems to have put much behind the Minsk Agreement. Even if they did, I'm not sure how long that would last if nobody else supported them. Can you imagine any of the (mostly european) countries which cry so loudly about Ukraine (while unwilling to commit forces), actually sending meaningful support to Taiwan?

nradov 2 days ago | parent [-]

That's hardly relevant. The USA was never really a direct party to the Minsk Agreements. The European countries have mostly disbanded their navies so they lack the capability to defend Taiwan even if they wanted to. Any meaningful assistance would have to come from other regional allies such as Australia, Japan, South Korea, and Vietnam.

mizzao 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

No invasion is necessary. Just cutting of undersea cables, bringing communications and finance to a halt with a total information blackout, and then blockade the island from shipping. They'd be left with no choice but to negotiate a surrender.

nradov 2 days ago | parent [-]

The US Navy would run the blockade and dare the Chinese to stop them.

mizzao a day ago | parent | next [-]

Seems unlikely given the current attitude toward any sort of intervention in Ukraine...

bokkies 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

And many irreplaceable ships will be sitting ducks for mid range missiles

lossolo 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> The situation is a fair bit different with Taiwan.

The only real difference here is that the U.S. has even fewer advantages in this hypothetical conflict. China, like Russia, has hypersonic missiles and drone swarms both of which are aircraft carrier killers and carriers are still the U.S.’s main way to project power so far from home. According to Pentagon estimates, in a war with China, the U.S. would only have about a month’s worth of ammunition. The supply chain situation would be a disaster, and Japan and South Korea likely wouldn’t risk directly supporting the U.S. because they’d be stuck right within China’s range, not thousands of kilometers from home.

Whatever’s written on paper is meaningless if the country guaranteeing your security has too much to lose, it’s just paper. Ukraine had guarantees, Poland had guarantees in 1939, and plenty of other countries in history had guarantees that didn’t hold up. What really matters are actual capabilities, war scenarios and costs.

Colby knows that[1], because he has all the data and understands the political reality. And the reality is that the U.S. could lose the war, and all the economic and political consequences of losing its hegemony would follow.

All of America’s enemies in history were weaker than the U.S. In the last 100 years, the U.S. hasn’t fought an opponent anywhere near its level of strength. Even in WWII, three quarters of Nazi Germany’s forces were destroyed by the Soviet Union, that’s a fact you won’t see in Hollywood movies about brave heroes. Now the U.S. would be facing the world’s factory, a country with the resources, political system and industrial capacity to actually win that war.

1. https://subscriber.politicopro.com/article/2025/09/pentagon-...

tim333 2 days ago | parent [-]

If you look at Russia's performance where there has been water in the way it's been kind of terrible. Their navy in the Black Sea kept getting hit by missiles and naval drones and has had to go hide and they've been largely unable to cross the Dnieper river.

The US would only need to bring an aircraft carrier to the general area and then could base aircraft in Taiwan. Even if the Chinese military was stronger than the US it'd be a difficult task for them.

tim333 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

At the moment the Ukrainian strategy, as well as defending themselves seems to be largely to take out the Russian oil industry and other economic targets with the aim that their economy collapses or at least they can't afford to keep the war going.

The Economist discussing that https://archive.ph/Rjuzy

lossolo 2 days ago | parent [-]

That will not happen. Even the southern branch of the Druzhba pipeline is still carrying some Russian crude through Ukraine to Hungary and Slovakia. This is all mirage. Russian oil gets mixed in India and then gets back to EU. Only U.S., Canada, the EU, the UK, Japan, South Korea, Australia, and a few others sanctioned Russia. So over 140 countries did not sanction Russia and can buy oil from them without any mixing and outside the Western price cap system. Cutting Russia off completely from the global oil market would send prices through the roof, and most countries don’t want that. That’s why Ukraine has reportedly been reminded behind closed doors not to hit Russian oil exports too hard.

slyall 2 days ago | parent [-]

Ukraine is targeting refineries rather than Crude production/supply. This impact refined oil exports and domestic supply and is causing Russia pain. Oil refineries are also very soft target.

They can't cut off the Druzhba pipeline because they need to keep Hungary and Slovakia happy.

littlestymaar 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I'm slowly starting to think that NATO/EU is using Ukraine as a trench war test ground

The US has definitely used the Ukraine war as a way to wear out the Soviet stockpiles out of Russia.

The EU just hasn't either political will or capabilities to really help Ukraine win.

ponector 2 days ago | parent [-]

No one has/had political will to help Ukraine win. USA actually had will to help Russia to continue invasion.

Imagine USA to send lend-lease weapons with strings attached: do not use against Hitler's troops in German territories. But that's exactly what is happening in Ukraine war.

littlestymaar 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

The US had limited interest in the Ukraine winning and a lot to gain from Russia wearing down until they are far from even dreaming of being a peer adversary.

The EU on the other hand is under existential threat from Russia so they (we, actually as I'm French) really ought to do something serious to help Ukraine not only stabilize the front line and wear down Russia, but win this war.

But because we underinvested in defense for decades (because the Western Europe couldn't imagine a conflict was possible with their biggest trade partner, and because eastern Europe was too keen on trading political influence inside the EU to the US in exchange for security guarantees against Russia without having to build a capable military on their own) we ended up in 2022 with little capabilities to really help Ukraine.

And because of the obsession with public spending and debt reduction, countries refused to seriously invest seriously in their industrial capabilities to supply the Ukrainians with a war-changing amount of ammo and other assets. (the fact that South Korea alone was able to give more ammo to the Ukrainians than the whole of EU in 2023 is a sad joke really).

I can't really blame the US, they played their own interests while minimizing consequences for them (and that's also why they wanted to avoid escalation in priority). But I do blame European leaders, including my own president, for not taking this matter as seriously as they should have. (For a full 10 month in 2023 Les forges de Tarbes, France's main production of 155mm shells, has been stuck with no way of producing anything because they couldn't pay their suppliers because they lacked liquidity to do so, this was utterly ridiculous and should have been solved with a single phone call. But nobody in charge bothered, for almost a year…)

ponector 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

>> The EU on the other hand is under existential threat from Russia

EU as an entity is under threat. But only few members bordering Russia actually feel the threat. Russia is not going to invade France or Spain anytime soon, they are relaxed.

627467 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

> Our threat is not Russia bringing its troops across the Pyrenees - Pedro Sanchez

> He also wrote that a 5 percent defense spending goal would jeopardize the country’s welfare system,

> Sánchez said that 17% of this year’s military spending would go to natural disaster relief.

The Spaniards are the only ones outright saying it, but seem very obvious that the silent (and overwhelmingly economical) majority in EU think this way

tim333 2 days ago | parent [-]

Spain is part of NATO and the EU though and so kind of obliged to help defend EU and NATO countries near Russia.

rcxdude 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Which is a very short-sighted view, because a Russia that manages to expand its territory is a Russia that will look to continue to expand into a now-weaker Europe.

littlestymaar 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

That's the key problem yes.

The economic consequences of the war have been severe for Germany though, but they don't seem to care that much unfortunately…

ahartmetz 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

At the beginning of the Ukraine war, Rheinmetall of Germany "could not" deliver artillery shells because they were busy manufacturing a large order from Hungary aka Putin's submarine in the EU. Ridiculous.

pydry 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

>No one has/had political will to help Ukraine win

All of the main neocon actors (e.g. lindsay graham) say this. The idea that western military resources are unlimited is a neocon article of faith.

It's weird coz it is possible to count the number of e.g. shells and air defense missiles manufactured and stockpiled and it is plainly obvious that it is not enough and was never enough. That is why Ukraine losing was inevitable.

>Imagine USA to send lend-lease weapons with strings attached: do not use against Hitler's troops

Imagine the USA supplying weapons to a leader who is actually just like Hitler while he is committing a genocide.

You dont have to imagine too hard.

ponector 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

>>> stockpiled and it is plainly obvious that it is not enough and was never enough

War is not only the 155mm shells. NATO has so many weapons stockpiled for war with USSR, they could send everything to Ukraine and it will help a lot. As an example, just check how many old Abrams the are in storage and never will be used and how many have been sent.

pydry 2 days ago | parent [-]

>War is not only the 155mm shells.

In this war it is most:

>Artillery has been known as the “king of battle” for centuries, and this largely remains true today. In the Russia-Ukraine war, artillery fire accounts for about 80 percent of the casualties on both sides.

https://www.cfr.org/expert-brief/weapons-war-race-between-ru...

>NATO has so many weapons stockpiled for war

Many, like the F16 proved expensive and fairly useless.

And, at some point they had to start deciding whether to strip their inventories bare or hold back weapons deliveries to Ukraine.

So, while there are many stockpiles, theyre not necessarily much help.

In a supreme act of irony the NATO member that stripped its inventories the most now has America threatening its territory.

tim333 2 days ago | parent [-]

>Artillery fire accounts for about 80 percent of the casualties

is no longer the case. Now it's drones https://www.army-technology.com/news/drones-now-account-for-...

which I guess show that things can change. If it had been a NATO vs Russia war it would have been air power or maybe nukes which everyone wants to avoid.

The switch to drone warfare may be a problem of Russia. They had a clear advantage in artillery but it's more even with drones and western collaboration like this Project Octopus may give Ukraine the advantage. (https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/a-western...)

pydry 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

I can believe that 80% of Russian casualties are drones, however that's more of an artefact of a dire shortage of artillery on the Ukrainian side.

Drones are the one thing theyve got left. It makes sense theyd hype them up. It also makes sense that military-industrial complex lobbying machinery like your website would hype up whatever seems to be working - it fills their order book.

>The switch to drone warfare may be a problem of Russia.

Body bag exchange ratios have recently topped ~40:1. Actual casualty ratios are (being generous, here) probably 25:1 at this point.

tim333 2 days ago | parent [-]

I suspect your casualty figures are from Russian misinformation rather than reality if you mean 25 Ukrainians for 1 Russian.

Reasonably neutral estimates have the military deaths since 2022 at about 80k Ukrainians, 250k Russians. (see wikipedia)

pydry a day ago | parent [-]

BBC: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ckg752y13meo

That case was 1212:27, or 44:1.

>Reasonably neutral estimates have the military deaths since 2022 at about 80k Ukrainians, 250k Russians

You might want to reassess your measure of what constitutes "reasonably neutral" because that 80k number is off by roughly an order of magnitude.

It's also worth noting that these lopsided 44:1 casualty exchange ratios are A) a relatively recent phenomenon - only in the last ~4-5 months. They are hard to bullshit though.

ponector a day ago | parent | next [-]

Body exchange means only that, not related to causality count. If russians are continuing slow advance, where do you expect bodies to be found? Who is controlling territories heavily covered with dead bodies?

Russian army is attacking with little to no success, and it's reasonable to expect 3:1 KIA rate between attacking and defending sides.

pydry a day ago | parent [-]

>Body exchange means only that, not related to causality count

Thats the most off the wall opinion Ive heard today.

>If russians are continuing slow advance, where do you expect bodies to be found?

Note that body exchanges were not this lopsided when Russia was retreating in 2022.

>it's reasonable to expect 3:1 KIA rate between attacking and defending

Unless one side is comprehensively outgunned and keeps falling into cauldron traps because they have orders to cling on to land at all costs.

Which seems to be a repeated pattern here.

ponector a day ago | parent [-]

>> Note that body exchanges were not this lopsided when Russia was retreating

That is the point. There are simply no Russian bodies in the territories controlled by Ukrainian army. To extract bodies they should be far from the front line, with current drone activity it's 20+ km. Body exchange says nothing about KIA.

If russian "meat" assault costs them a 100 killed to fulfill talk to capture a treeline - those 100 bodies will be on russian-controlled territory and not for exchange.

tim333 a day ago | parent | prev [-]

I'm not sure an exchange of bodies like that has much to do with casualty ratios.

littlestymaar 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> is no longer the case. Now it's drones

Now, yes. But we wasted two years of war before going to that point and during this entire time Russia has outgunned Ukraine by almost an order of magnitude, mostly because shells where a scarce resource for the AFU, which is a shame.

And artillery still is far from irrelevant even now.

tim333 2 days ago | parent [-]

The whole war seems a bit unnecessary. If Biden had said if you invade Ukraine we'll set the USAF on the invading troops the whole thing probably wouldn't have happened.

littlestymaar a day ago | parent [-]

Or the French, the Germans, the Poles and the Brits could have prepositioned troops (a brigade each, maximum) in Kyiv, Kharkiv, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia and Putin wouldn't have moved either.

As I said above, I don't blame the US for not doing more as their action maximized their own interests, but I blame out European leaders for being spineless cowards.

pydry a day ago | parent [-]

The French, Germans and Poles keep talking about doing just that - with "reassurance" forces or whatever the name for it is these days.

If they deploy those forces they will be wiped out. There is no question of that.

European leaders' main hope was that they could sacrifice some troops to provoke the yanks over to save the day.

Trump has comprehensively and publicly ruled that out though. He refuses to be drawn in.

And what would you do in that situation? with a bunch of dead troops, an infuriated Russia and no US to come to the rescue?

littlestymaar a day ago | parent [-]

> The French, Germans and Poles keep talking about doing just that - with "reassurance" forces or whatever the name for it is these days.

4 years and a million casualties too late though.

> If they deploy those forces they will be wiped out.

What? We've all seen the offensive capabilities of the Russian over the past three years and it's been very clear that they can't run combined arms properly, nor can they secure air dominance over a country with only old Soviet airframes, they wouldn't be able to wipe out anything in a short period and attacking allied forces means declaring war to those nations, which Russians cannot afford to do.

> European leaders' main hope was that they could sacrifice some troops to provoke the yanks over to save the day.

They'd been no need to save anything, Putin isn't dumb enough to start a fight with European countries. Putin couldn't beat Ukraine in more than three years, hoping to win against the whole Europeans would be stupidly delusional.

pydry a day ago | parent [-]

>What? We've all seen the offensive capabilities of the Russian over the past three years and it's been very clear that they can't run combined arms properly

Have we been watching the same war? Ukraine is getting absolutely trounced.

>nor can they secure air dominance

Um, air defenses in Ukraine are virtually nonexistent these days. Shahed attacks get through every time these days and glide bombs are wrecking all front line fortifications.

This certainly wasnt the case in 2023 or 2024 when the russian air force did nothing, but it is now.

>they wouldn't be able to wipe out anything in a short period and attacking allied forces means declaring war to those nations, which Russians cannot afford to do.

shrug Putin has said he would do it explicitly and Ive never known him to bluff.

I think you might be wildly overestimating how many troops Europe has to spare, also.

>Putin couldn't beat Ukraine in more than three years

He invaded the largest country in Europe, supplied by the richest and most powerful military bloc in the world. Did he fail if it takes 5 years to secure capitulation?

ponector 18 hours ago | parent | next [-]

>> Did he fail if it takes 5 years to secure capitulation?

He is asking North Korea and Iran for help - definitely not a sign of success.

littlestymaar 15 hours ago | parent | next [-]

He also destroyed Russian arm export industry, which used to be second only to the US and is now far behind France.

pydry 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The Nork troops are not really a sign of anything more than Putin's desire to keep the official Russian military death count down.

The US also prefers to use PMCs and proxy forces for its most deadly battles.

Iran isnt helping, theyre just a customer and a supplier.

littlestymaar a day ago | parent | prev [-]

> Have we been watching the same war? Ukraine is getting absolutely trounced

I for sure have not been watching it on RT.

Combined arms done well is Op Desert Storm, not “our three days special operation has been bogged down in Donbass for three years”.

> Um, air defenses in Ukraine are virtually nonexistent these days. Shahed attacks get through every time these days

If only… The only way Russia keeps a steady amount of damage from Shahed is by multiplying their deployment because the AFU similarly increase their interceptions.

> shrug Putin has said he would do it explicitly and Ive never known him to bluff.

Well, you've not been following the conflict that closely as Putin said multiple times that doing this or that (striking Kerch Bridge, shipping ATACMS, shipping tanks, attacking Russian soil) would mean he'd use nuke, and it turned out these red lines where all bluff.

> He invaded the largest country in Europe

The third biggest, after Russia (and France) with only a fifth the population of Russia, and a country that didn't have an actual army before 2014.

> supplied by the richest and most powerful military bloc in the world.

Just barely: western countries first refused to send heavy weapons, then refused to send tanks, then refused to send fighter jets, then they piled up restrictions after restrictions on the use of force and some are still refusing to send long range weapons (hello Germany).

> Did he fail if it takes 5 years to secure capitulation?

He definitely failed his 3 days military operation and put his country in a years long war that annihilated all of its army modernization program that was running for the past decade. Now how much can he limit the consequences of his failure is an open question.

And that doesn't change the fact that he still hasn't been able to win against the small and weak Ukraine after three years, which is not a good situation to be in if you want to fight European powers together…

pydry 13 hours ago | parent [-]

>Combined arms done well is Op Desert Storm

Desert storm was a war against an isolated 3rd world country with no military industry and military hardware from the 1970s.

Were the Iraqis plugged into the supply chains of a global superpower (like, say, the vietcong was) then it'd be a bit more comparable.

>Just barely

Not just barely. We've emptied our inventories of air defense missiles. European capitals are essentially undefended.

Trump, meanwhile, has decided to wrap up supplies because he wants to save the remaining arms for a war with China.

It's not fun being a Russian proxy but it's even less fun being an expendable American junior partner.

The biggest poke in the eye has to be Denmark. They emptied their inventories the most out of all of NATO and Trump is now threatening their sovereign territory.

>Well, you've not been following the conflict that closely as Putin said multiple times that doing this or that (striking Kerch Bridge, shipping ATACMS, shipping tanks, attacking Russian soil) would mean he'd use nuke

This never happened even once. The west just made a big song and dance about crossing what they declared to be Russian red lines.

They backed away from a few, as well.

>3 days military operation

Was a phrase used by US General Mark Milley: https://www.foxnews.com/us/gen-milley-says-kyiv-could-fall-w...

By contrast, in 2022 Putin gave a timeline of "as long as it takes".

It is impressive enough that the largest country in Europe supplied by the richest and most powerful military bloc in the world is being defeated at all. There are lessons we could learn from this or we could do as you do - stick our fingers in our ears and just pretend everything is rosy.

littlestymaar 12 hours ago | parent [-]

> Desert storm was a war against an isolated 3rd world country with no military industry and military hardware from the 1970s.

Why do you keep embarassing yourself on a topic you have no clue about except what you heard from Russian propaganda?

Saddam's army was full of modern western and soviet kits and was much better equipped than the AFU (not only for the time but in general: Irak in 1991 had more modern weapons than the Soviet leftover the Ukrainians had back in 2022).

Ukraine is as much of a shithole country as Saddam's Ukraine was, of just happened to have a more competent military leadership, and faced an incompetent opponent.

> Were the Iraqis plugged into the supply chains of a global superpower (like, say, the vietcong was) then it'd be a bit more comparable.

It wouldn't have, because the supply wouldn't have arrived in time. Like what happened in the 6 days war, where the Arab countries were indeed plugged into the Soviet supply line but lost too fast for that to matter. That's the point of the Airland Battle doctrine to begin with. That's also why the US refused to hand over heavy weapons before the invasion, as they genuinely expected the Russians to be capable of toppling the AFU in just a few days or weeks, and didn't expect their aid to be enough to overcome the challenge.

> Was a phrase used by US General Mark Milley

As if Soloviev and other Kremlin-approved pundits never said that as well.

Also the “special military operation” phrase itself was coined by Putin and people calling that a “war” were criminalized.

> By contrast, in 2022 Putin gave a timeline of "as long as it takes".

After the retreat in early 2022, which he described like it was all going according to plans…

Why are you listening to pathological liars?

> Not just barely. We've emptied our inventories of air defense missiles. European capitals are essentially undefended.

Same question as above, why do you keep believing Russian BS?

While air defense is probably the only domain where the assistance has been nontrivial (unlike tanks or airframes with the single digit packages), only a minor fraction of the stocks have been handed over to Ukraine (stocks which were never enough to protect European cities in the first place, as the Western doctrine for air space protection leans much more on fighter jets and AA missiles than on SAM batteries which fit a much narrower niche than in Warsaw pact's doctrine). Needless to say that the AA capabilities of European nations are still untouched and would pose an overwhelming threat to a VKS which have proved its poor combat readiness at the start of the war and has been badly maimed by a country without modern fighters…

> Trump, meanwhile, has decided to wrap up supplies because he wants to save the remaining arms for a war with China.

You missed the memo from last week when Hegseth said China isn't a priority for the US and that they are focusing on the “Western hemisphere ”.

> This never happened even once. The west just made a big song and dance about crossing what they declared to be Russian red lines.

This level of selective forgetting is unbelievable, really.

> It is impressive enough that the largest country in Europe

You keep repeating this BS, but Ukraine is only barely more populated as Belgium and the Nederland combined. It's very, very far from being the largest country in Europe population wise…

> Europe supplied by the richest and most powerful military bloc in the world

The said military block has barely provided a few percent of its defense budget to Ukraine for the past three years.

> is being defeated at all

It's not so far. Putin and his enthusiasts may dream about Ukraine being defeated but the truth is that 3 years in Russia still isn't defeating anyone.

> stick our fingers in our ears and just pretend everything is rosy.

Not everything is rosy, especially because European leaders are too reluctant to supply Ukraine and have not taken the appropriate industrial investments to make that supply possible.

But that doesn't mean the picture is rose on the Russian side either…

littlestymaar 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> It's weird coz it is possible to count the number of e.g. shells and air defense missiles manufactured and stockpiled and it is plainly obvious that it is not enough and was never enough.

It's all a matter of investment in industrial capacities, especially for mundane early-twentieth century technology like 155mm shells.

It's not inevitable that North Korea is able to supply more shells than any individual NATO member, you know.

pydry 2 days ago | parent [-]

>It's not inevitable that North Korea is able to supply more shells

It is if American military exceptionalism is treated as an article of faith, which it was, so here we are.

Scaling up industrial production was never treated as a serious problem and still isnt because all you need, apparently, as OP said, is political will.

Putin made a bet on American and western hubris and it seems to have paid off.

tim333 a day ago | parent [-]

I don't know if was western hubris so much as gullibility. Putin was saying he wouldn't invade right up until the day before and western politicians have the choice of whether to put money into shell production or schools and hospitals and went for the latter.

I'm not sure the bet paid off much either - Russia is way down in money, human lives, global reputation, military equipment and so forth. And I doubt the war will develop much in Russia's favour going forward. You can get so far by say we're your friend, we won't attack to peaceful people and then hitting them when their guard is down but they wise up.

pydry a day ago | parent [-]

>Putin was saying he wouldn't invade right up until the day before

This was seemingly in an attempt to provide a diplomatic off ramp where everybody could pretend that they didnt back down in the face of a naked threat of force.

America and Ukraine both rejected the 3 point ultimatum though - basically saying "bring it on".

Since then the deal offered by Russia has worsened relative to Ukraine's steadily declining negotiating leverage.

>I'm not sure the bet paid off much either - Russia is way down in money, human lives

They have a casualty exchange ratio of 44:1 at this point. This is why Europe is in a bit of a collective panic and Trump is flailing around trying to make a deal.

None of that would be happening if the original plan of "levy a crushing defeat" was working out.

So yes, the bet is paying off.

>And I doubt the war will develop much in Russia's favour going forward

In that case events of the next year will probably shock you.

tim333 a day ago | parent | next [-]

Well time will tell I guess.

I'm not sure how you figure there was an 'original plan of "levy a crushing defeat"' - don't know how that would have worked with zero NATO troops and minimal assistance to Ukraine. I think it was more hoping Russia would behave like a normal civilised country and not murder their peaceful neighbours. That one obviously didn't pan out but you can't win them all.

pydry a day ago | parent [-]

Minimal assistance? We sent half of our inventories. European capitals are stripped bare of air defense missiles.

>I think it was more hoping Russia would behave like a normal civilised country

Theyre acting like the countries who are currently supporting a Nazi-level genocide were trying to set up a string of offensive military bases along their most vulnerable border.

This is why they were only sanctioned by western countries. The global south that faced the full brunt of western colonialism is better able to appreciate how unpredictable and threatening we actually are.

littlestymaar 10 hours ago | parent [-]

> Minimal assistance? We sent half of our inventories.

Dude stop smoking Russia media's shit for breakfast!

Check how many tanks, IFV and fighter jets the European countries have, and how many we sent to Ukraine. We are talking about a few percent here !

> European capitals are stripped bare of air defense missiles

European countries, like the US, never relied on SAM for air defense. Instead the doctrine is air dominance both offensively or defensively and the VKS stands no chance against the combined airforce of all European countries (one could argue that they are no match against a single big European nation on their own).

In fact, in case of an air attack F35 operators would hunt VKS bombers over Russian soil so even the pathetic “standoff munitions only” tactics the VKS has been conducting for the past three years over Ukraine wouldn't work against European capitals.

> The global south that faced the full brunt of western colonialism

They are also well aware that Russia has always been a member of the “western colonialist club”, As the Chinese gently reminded them by starting to call Vladivostok Haishenwai again.

littlestymaar a day ago | parent | prev [-]

> America and Ukraine both rejected the 3 point ultimatum though […]

I was going to say that you're drinking Russia propaganda out of the fire hose then I saw that:

> They have a casualty exchange ratio of 44:1 at this point

What the heck are you talking about, even Russian MoD communication isn't as ridiculous.

How do you think a country of 32 million inhabitants count withstand for three years against a country of 150M with such a grotesque figure (that's the kind of ratio you'd only see in colonial wars in the XIXth century against hunter gatherers). There was not even enough Ukrainian male in age of fighting at the start of the war to make that figure work.

> So yes, the bet is paying off.

Putin has reinforced his internal power, so yes the bet is paying off, that was the only real goal from the start. After all war is just the continuation of internal politics through other means.

> In that case events of the next year will probably shock you.

Ah yes, like the events of 2022 were supposed to shock us as well: The special military operation overthrowing the Nazi government of Ukraine by taking Kiyv in three days…

nradov 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

NATO doesn't intend to ever fight a trench war. The war in Ukraine is a useful testing ground for certain weapons but I don't think they care much about trench warfare in general. NATO doctrine has always been to destroy the adversary's air defense system first, then rely on air dominance to enable maneuver warfare on the ground. Neither Russia nor Ukraine had much in the way of functional air forces so they had to fall back on more primitive attritional tactics.

romperstomper 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I'm slowly starting to think that NATO/EU is using Ukraine as a trench war test ground

Ukrainian government even officially proposed that some time ago as I remember.

627467 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Anyone who read about Spanish civil war could tell Ukraine was going to become 2020s (30s?) equivalent of 1930s Spain

tim333 2 days ago | parent [-]

I don't see that. Ukraine doesn't really have a civil war. Zelensky doesn't seem a Franco type.

stefantalpalaru 2 days ago | parent [-]

[dead]

scotty79 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I was actually quite amazed that US doesn't really see Ukraine as proving ground for their weapons. I guess they don't really want to find out if they are any good in practice. So far they just implied they were good because they were expensive, but for example tanks weren't really all that useful.

627467 2 days ago | parent [-]

> US doesn't really see Ukraine as proving ground

How do we know this? Aren't some defense tech companies (anduril?) publicly disclosing shipment of new weapons to Ukraine?

petre 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Others tried to invade Russia and failed. The way to beat them is through bankrupcy. The US managed to do that to the USSR once. The Ukrainian strategy of taking out their refineries is good. Regarding interceptor drones, Russia can't complain that the West is giving them offensive weapons. Although I fail to see how anything short of lasers or microwave weapons to fry the drones' circuitry would work against large drone swarms.

tim333 a day ago | parent | next [-]

It works by large swarms of interceptors. 1000 shaheds met by 2000 interceptors.

Which is why you want "cost less than 10% of the Russian systems destroyed."

a day ago | parent | prev [-]
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EnPissant 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They are willing to fight to the last Ukrainian, that's for sure.

vintermann 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> If they don't bring the war to Russia in full scale, it'll never end.

How exactly do you picture it ending? No, really. Imagine you got everything you wanted. Everyone delivers max offensive capability to Ukraine. Ukraine brings the war to Russia in full scale. Putin, or his successors, give up. Then what?

At the end of the day, Russia will still be there, at Ukraine's borders. What happens?

(Unless you're one of those who imagine a split-up - a sentiment Putin absolutely has noticed and used in building domestic support, by the way. But either way, there will be something that used to be Russia at Ukraine's borders, and they may not be very happy about their neighbors after a full scale war.)

I'll listen to any plausible scenario - plausible to you I mean, I'll defer judgment for now. Don't worry about convincing me, just convince yourself. I just want to know what happy outcome you imagine after Ukraine has somehow brought the war to Russia and won.

tim333 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

It's looking a bit like Russia's adventure in Afghanistan. With that, after a decade:

>The war gradually inflicted a high cost on the Soviet Union as military, economic, and political resources became increasingly exhausted. (wikipedia)

and the Soviet Union withdrew in 1989 and collapsed in 1991. I doubt Russia can keep this one going for a decade. They are currently losing about 1000 soldiers a day and have a deficit of ~$100bn/yr, 17% interest rates and 20% of their oil refining capacity taken out by Ukrainian drone strikes which are escalating.

vintermann 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

I agree, actually. It looks a lot like Afghanistan.

But you remember, even though the US foreign policy establishment basically got every single outcome it wanted from supporting the rebels in Afghanistan, right up to the split up of the Soviet Union and Russia becoming a republic run on Chicago school of economics principles by a pro-US president, in another couple of years they instead got Russia back as an enemy state and al Qaeda.

Also, while the situation ended up back in a pretty bad place for the US, that's nothing to where Afghanistan ended up. I think the US should try pretty hard avoid winning, if winning means the same as the way they won in Afghanistan. And Ukraine should definitively avoid an Afghanistan-style victory at all costs.

nradov 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

So what. From the USA perspective, that outcome was still a lot better than having the old USSR in place. Keep the pressure on and maybe a few more of the outlying regions will break away. A long and bloody internal civil war would be ideal but anything that keeps Russia poor and weak would be a win.

fakedang 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Ukraine is different because Ukraine is fighting under one identity, that of their legitimate elected government. Afghanistan's Communist government was deposed by the warlords, who then began carving fiefdoms for themselves, which eventually gave rise to corruption, then the counter-corrupt-govt movement (the Taliban), and eventually a safe haven for Al Qaeda. That was also the reason for the US nation-building efforts in Afghanistan to fail miserably.

lossolo 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> I doubt Russia can keep this one going for a decade.

They only need to keep going longer than their opponent. Ukraine has fewer soldiers and resources than Russia and currently has almost no offensive capability, as seen on the battlefield. All they can really do is defend, and even then they’re still losing ground, not much, but still losing territory. Here in the West, we’re facing economic problems, high debt, and a shortage of weapons production, especially in the EU. I’d like what you’re saying to happen, but that’s wishful thinking. And Afghanistan wasn’t the primary or even a major reason for the Soviet Union’s collapse.

> I doubt Russia can keep this one going for a decade

They have oil, gas, and minerals that the rest of the world needs, and they have an internal propaganda machine that lets them hold out for a long time. I remember "experts" saying Russia would collapse economically in 2023, then in 2024 for sure, and that they’d run out of rockets. Now it’s 2025, and that collapse isn’t even on the horizon.

tim333 a day ago | parent | next [-]

Fair enough there hasn't been much economic collapse yet but we shall see.

scotty79 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> Ukraine has fewer soldiers and resources than Russia and currently has almost no offensive capability

No offensive capabilities and yet russian refineries keep burning reducing its capability to produce fuel to the point that the fuel in Russia is most expensive it has ever been by a large margin. No vehicles run on crude and russia will eventually have to walk their soldiers to the front lines.

> I remember "experts" saying Russia would collapse economically in 2023

Experts weren't necessarily wrong. It's just hard to notice collapse of something that's already almost a failed state that constantly lies about how things are.

rcxdude 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Security guarantees for Ukraine, basically. Ideally full NATO membership. Then Russia will be extremely hard pressed to try again. This is what Ukraine is fighting for, they are practically screaming it at anyone who will listen, and pretty much the only situation in which they will stop fighting (in fact, they would potentially allow some territory to remain occupied if there was a strong guarantee (not just a promise from Russia) that Russia could advance no further.

ponector 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>> How exactly do you picture it ending?

With a peace agreement. Russia withdraw its troops, ends occupation and pays for the inflicted damage. Sounds fair, no?

vintermann 2 days ago | parent [-]

Thank you. It's an answer, but it's very light on the details.

How do you deal with the fact that the large majority of the population in Crimea (and probably a lot of Donbas too) preferred union with Russia over staying in Ukraine? Do you deny them the vote for a generation? Ethnically cleanse them? Or do you give them a big hand on the rudder in the new unified Ukraine, like they used to have? Either solution seems like it's a powder keg for war to break out again.

So do war reparations, of course. That's basically how WW2 happened. As I see it, the best case scenario of Russia paying for all the damages is that it becomes an impoverished breeding ground for a lot of vengeful terrorism. Maybe you're more optimistic?

Also, is this peace agreement really more likely to happen if Moscow has been London blitz-droned into submission? When did your country last sue for peace in such a situation, and how long did that last? I don't have much sympathy for "political realists" in practice, but in theory, I agree with them that you should expect other states to behave like your state would have behaved.

ponector 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

>> fact that the large majority of the population in Crimea

It's not a fact but propaganda from RussiaToday.

How about to go the Russian way: put troops there, make them do a referendum, be sure people see guns and Ukrainian flags. Anyone who will not make a Ukrainian passport soon will be deported or imprisoned. They are ok if Russia do it - then once more will be also accepted.

>> Maybe you're more optimistic?

There are €300b of frozen Russian money, also a 10% reparation tax on oil export could finance the rebuild of Ukraine.

alextingle a day ago | parent | prev [-]

All of the settlers that Russia has imported into its occupied territories must be sent packing.

sensanaty 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

And what exactly is the alternative, in your mind? Ukraine gets conquered, and what, they all live happily ever after under the gracious and gentle hand of Putin and sing kumbaya for getting reintegrated back into the glorious USSR?

Also, you're framing this as if Ukraine is the aggressor. Maybe if Russia didn't want to be left as an "angry" neighbour, they shouldn't have started their 1000 day special military operation.

yks 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I mean, you can ask this question about literally every war. It ends with a heavily armed border, and uneasy peace until Russia gets a leader that realizes that wars of attrition destroy attacker's nation wealth just as much as defender's. Maybe Putin achieves the immortality he's dreaming about, or maybe Russia never gets a leader like that, well, at least Ukraine would get an opportunity to build up a nation that is too costly to invade.

scotty79 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> At the end of the day, Russia will still be there, at Ukraine's borders.

We can pave over it and turn it into parking lot on the side of the highway to China which border will start right behind Ural mountains.