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verytrivial 5 days ago

Do please take a moment to consider which MPs carry the burden here. It's mainly a single flavour. Mention it on the doorstep next time.

https://votes.parliament.uk/votes/commons/division/1926

arrowsmith 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

I'm not sure what this recent vote is about. The original Online Safety Act was introduced and passed by the Tories in 2023 (although it's only coming into effect now, obviously.)

So the Tories, who created this awful bill in the first place, are now voting against it? Clown country.

mlinhares 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

That happens all over the place, conservatives pass a time bomb bill, they lose control of congress/house, time bomb is about to become effective, they now fight to overturn it and place the blame on the current ruling folks.

arrowsmith 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

Except this bill was first introduced in March 2022, when the Tories hadn't imploded and there was no strong reason to expect they'd lose the next election.

It wasn't a "time bomb". They introduced this legislation because they wanted it.

ben_w 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

> March 2022, when the Tories hadn't imploded and there was no strong reason to expect they'd lose the next election.

Under Boris Johnson?

Well, I suppose we have the benefit of hindsight.

rsynnott 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Eh, I mean, the polls were looking fairly dire for them by that point.

arrowsmith 3 days ago | parent [-]

Not nearly as dire as they were a year later.

poszlem 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If it’s really a time bomb, I’d expect the supposedly responsible party to defuse it. So why haven’t they?

scott_w 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

This isn’t one of those cases. It was a well intentioned Bill that passed with Labour’s support but was very badly planned and written. Hell, it wouldn’t even have helped counter the misinformation being spread last summer and this summer to try and instigate more race riots!

arrowsmith 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

“Well intentioned” hahahaha yeah right, good one.

The purpose of a system is what it does.

scott_w 4 days ago | parent [-]

If that were true, why do laws get amended when politicians see impacts they don't like? A famous example that college students are taught at A-Level Law is the law on bigamy where it stated "a married person who gets married again." This isn't possible (in the UK, you can only get married to one person at a time), so the court had to rewrite the legislation on the fly to get the intended effect.

4 days ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
varispeed 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Labour thought Tory version was not going far enough.

hkt 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Labour appear to be talking about wanting to repeal the OSA judging by this morning's news: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/29/uk-pol...

drawfloat 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Nigel Farage isn't part of Labour.

hkt 4 days ago | parent [-]

You're right, I misread. I'm terrible in the mornings - apologies.

Throwkin 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

arrowsmith 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Many such cases

jjani 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In the UK on this specific topic, "both sides" is as true as ever. This is very obvious when looking at the bigger picture instead of just a single vote. I wish it wasn't, if only it was indeed just one side.

ta1243 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Government parties are whipped

What's really interesting is those that voted "Aye" who aren't Labour/ex Labour

DUP and Reform. Well the one reform MP that bothered to turn up. How surprising.

crinkly 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

What a fucking mess.

Labour voted in conservative policy. Conservatives voted against it. Reform, whilst all over the news for being against it, voted for it.

0xbadcafebee 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

I think it's fun when the elected government doesn't do what the people who elected them want. Like a middle finger to democracy.

Arkhaine_kupo 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

In america there is 0 corelation between middle class voting preferences and what their elected officials voted for. There is a closer aligment with upper class voters and lobby groups. It is arguable america is not a democracy based on those facts despite nominally voting every few years

https://journalistsresource.org/politics-and-government/the-...

Basically if 0% of americans want a law it has 30% chance of passing, and if 100% of american want a law it has 32% chance of passing. For lobby groups it goes from 0% = 0% to 100% = 65% chance. Much closer to preference based lawmaking.

Nursie 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I think it's fun when the elected government doesn't do what the people who elected them want.

I can't think of a country that does have people largely in agreement with the governments actions, lately.

Or perhaps, for any given country, one can find a collection of loud voices detailing how 'the people' disagree with what's happening. But whether they meaningfully do is hard to establish.

I imagine a lot of Brits agree with the incoming rules, whether they are effective or not. You find that here in Aus too - a lot of Australians vehemently agree with the protectionist laws, because the intent of them is to protect children. And to many of them it doesn't matter what the real outcome is, because you want to protect children don't you? And this law is to protect children, QED.

DarkmSparks 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

UK is a monarchy. More so now than ever before. They all just chasing their peerages.

drcongo 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

I think the whole of the 1800s would disagree with you.

arrowsmith 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> they

I'm not sure you understand what the word "monarchy" means.

DarkmSparks 4 days ago | parent [-]

It means the Brits get to elect who will agree to do and say exactly what the King and his mafioso family tells them to do and say.

Lio 2 days ago | parent [-]

That's clearly bullshit.

When the House of Commons and the King disagree the Commons is supreme.

When that was last tested, in 1688, the reigning monarch was removed from power and replaced.

It was enshrined in the Bill of Rights 1689 and has not needed to be tested since.

DarkmSparks 2 days ago | parent [-]

when the prime minister and the monarch agree that the PM takes all the credit for murdering lots of kids, the prime minister gets a knighthood. (tony blair) - chasing the peerages.

When they disagree, they get a big dose of massive character assassination (Gordon Brown, Jeremy Corbin)

Or just dead (David Kelly).

Discussed in detail during the non public weekly meetings between the PM and head of state.

arrowsmith 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

"Alexa, summarise the last 15+ years of UK politics in two sentences."

userbinator 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

s/UK//

scott_w 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I mean, the last 15 years were mostly Tories and the public kept voting them in. I’m glad I’m not a politician because I have no sympathy for Brexit voters who voted Tory in 2019, claim “I know what a voted for,” and now complain about how much poorer and full of immigrants the country now is. It was all there in the 2019 Conservative manifesto they voted for!

arrowsmith 4 days ago | parent [-]

Wtf are you talking about? The Conservatives promised to reduce immigration in 2019. Instead they increased it to its highest ever levels by far, hence why they got thrown out of office.

Have you ever met or spoken to a Conservative voter in your entire life?

scott_w 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

They promised a policy (Brexit) in a form that would replace immigration from European countries with immigration from non-white countries.

In fact, the Tories did NOT promise to reduce immigration. They promised 2 things that are guaranteed to increase immigration:

- 50,000 extra nurses (including foreign recruitment)

- A points-based system, you can find articles talking about how this increases immigration

Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50524262

Nursie 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

> They promised 2 things that are guaranteed to increase immigration

> A points-based system, you can find articles talking about how this increases immigration

Firstly, I don't think they actually introduced one of those, did they? And secondly, how is that guaranteed to increase immigration?

The UK media and some of politicians at the time were all talking about an Australian-style points system. As someone pretty intimately acquainted with the Australian system, people (including ex-PM Teresa May) didn't seem to understand that under the Australian system -

- The government sets a minimum number of points under which you won't even be considered.

- The government set a maximum number of visas they will grant under the scheme each year

- The people with the best points are invited to apply for those visas

So with this setup the 'paper' minimum might be 65 points, but the effective threshhold is often 95 points to actually be invited to apply.

Yet in the UK the picture was painted as if you set a points threshhold and that's it, anyone with more than that gets a visa and you can't possibly control the numbers. It seemed like a total misunderstanding of the scheme.

They also said things like "And Australia has proportionally even higher migration than the UK under that scheme!", which is true, but again that's because the government has decided to set the amounts of visas at that level and sets them higher or lower, or adjusts which skills get more points, according to perceived need for skilled people. Aus has higher migration under their points scheme as a choice. The UK could have chosen to limit skilled visas under a similar program to a much lower level.

As far as I could tell, all of the articles and talking points at the time entirely ignored this.

blitzar 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

> Firstly, I don't think they actually introduced one of those, did they?

Boris introduced 2 million (legal) immigrants in the first (unaffected) year we "took back control" of the borders under the new system rolled out in 2020

The UK's new points-based immigration system - https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-...

Nursie 4 days ago | parent [-]

Oh they did introduce a system, OK, wasn't aware.

Perhaps in all the talk of making the system like the Australian one, they missed the crucial part of it - that you also apply limits to the visas you issue.

In fact it looks like that's exactly what happened, they introduced a Skilled Worker visa with no quota.

blitzar 4 days ago | parent [-]

The solution to all the problems was delivered. Promises made, promises delivered, will of the people.

scott_w 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> Firstly, I don't think they actually introduced one of those, did they?

The fact they didn't introduce it doesn't change the fact that adding 50,000 nurses required an increase in immigration. I went back and re-read the article, they also promised more childcare places. Guess what? That also requires more immigration.

In fact, I just read the manifesto itself and they also added a "fast-track NHS visa," so we have a clear "let's increase immigration" policy right in your face! Page 22, hilariously right next to where they promise "numbers will come down."

> They also said things like "And Australia has proportionally even higher migration than the UK under that scheme!", which is true, but again that's because the government has decided to set the amounts of visas at that level and sets them higher or lower

You're correct, the government can choose to give out less visas, and they hinted that they would in the manifest (page 22). But if you read the rest of the manifesto, you realise quickly that the two goals can't be achieved at the same time. It's like promising to cure cancer by shooting the patient.

Look, we can argue about this until the cows come home but, if you voted Tory because you thought they would bring immigration numbers down, then you should have read their manifesto. The fact that they were never able to do this was right there!

Going back to "I voted for Brexit," then complaining about Brexit. Well, that's also something that there's no excuse for. In December 2019, the deal that was to be agreed was known. If you didn't like what it said about fishing or whatever, well, tough shit. You agreed to it when you put your tick in the box for Conservative.

---

Manifesto: https://cdn.prod.website-files.com/5da42e2cae7ebd3f8bde353c/...

Nursie 4 days ago | parent [-]

I think we're talking at cross-purposes here - I'm not really taking a position one way or another on whether the Tories would/could have reduced immigration, and they certainly didn't deliver on that.

I was just pretty flabbergasted at the time by the blanket misunderstandings of the system that was being talked about, seemingly from all sides.

I didn't vote for them either way :shrug:

scott_w 4 days ago | parent [-]

I think it's important to understand the context, which is where my initial reply was aimed at:

> Wtf are you talking about? The Conservatives promised to reduce immigration in 2019.

Taken with that context, it's important to understand the manifesto to realise they didn't really "promise" to reduce immigration.

> I was just pretty flabbergasted at the time by the blanket misunderstandings of the system

A lot of blame belongs with our media. Frankly, it's piss-poor, barely goes beyond surface level reading of things and attempts to get soundbites out of politicians. I get more out of random YouTubers and podcasters, which has its own problems because how do you know which ones know what they're talking about?

scott_w 4 days ago | parent [-]

> I didn't vote for them either way :shrug:

Just to clarify on this point, I didn't mean "you" as in literally "you," I intended this in the informal "you" that's used in British English to indirectly refer to a group of people.

Nursie 4 days ago | parent [-]

I know, just wanted to be sure I wasn’t coming across as a frustrated Tory voter!

amiga386 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> In fact, the Tories did NOT promise to reduce immigration.

In fact they did. They promised to reduce immigration. They did the opposite of what you just said.

Their 2019 manifesto said "There will be fewer lower-skilled migrants and overall numbers will come down."

Source: PDF linked on https://conservativehome.com/2019/12/06/read-the-conservativ...

scott_w 4 days ago | parent [-]

I already answered this, using the manifesto itself here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44720675

teamonkey 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

There were also the matters of Johnson throwing a Covid party, Truss tanking the economy within a few weeks of taking office, and Sunak being useless and generally taking the hit for a flacid economy.

arrowsmith 4 days ago | parent [-]

All of those are true but I promise you that the median conservative voter can forgive all of those far sooner than they’ll forgive the Boriswave.

jlwozere 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

:%s/normal/retarded/g

kypro 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Reform, whilst all over the news for being against it, voted for it.

Just as a slight correction – the only "Reform MP" that voted for it is James McMurdock, but he's no longer a Reform MP and I'm not sure why he is still listed as one here.

jeroenhd 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There's an excellent (volunteer-run) [website](https://www.partijgedrag.nl/index.php) about Dutch politics that will ask your opinion on a bunch of historic chamber proposals (for/against/skip) and use that to show your alignment to different parties by comparing your answers with actual party votes. It has definitely swayed my vote a few times.

I suppose such a tool might not work in a first-past-the-post voting system, but in my case it certainly has certainly helped to see what politicians actually vote like rather than just trusting the promises. If you live in a country with easily accessible digital records of votes/bills/proposals, I imagine you could throw something similar together and help quite a few people.

crinkly 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Well aware of these tools. I've always said this but party politics is the stupidest idea ever. We should be voting on policies not people and parties. There isn't a single party which is ideologically aligned with me on enough of the significant issues. That leads to be having to pick the least bad one, and that's still bad.

addandsubtract 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

There's Wahl-o-Mat in Germany, that does the same thing. There's one for each major election, from regional votes to EU representative votes.

https://www.wahl-o-mat.de/

Semaphor 4 days ago | parent [-]

> comparing your answers with actual party votes

Wahl-o-Mat is *not* the same, it’s stated politics. One of the criticisms of it is that actual voting might (lol) differ. There was an alternative one, [0] Real-o-Mat that checked actual voting behavior. Though that has its own set of issues.

[0]: https://real-o-mat.de/

pjc50 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's Daily Mail policy, and they're the permanent government. With the help of the Home Office, who keep writing anti-encryption bills.

varispeed 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is misleading. Labour's only objection was that the policy was not going far enough!

graemep 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Most Reform MPs did not vote at all!

Neither did a lot of conservatives and labour, interestingly.

Greens and Lib Dems voted no, which raises my opinion of them.

Agreed its a mess.

piker 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

Any abstention is at best in the same column as the ayes here. Arguably worse.

oneeyedpigeon 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Just for the benefit of those unfamiliar with UK politics: "most" is a bit misleading here, even though it's technically true. Reform has 4 MPs (out of 650).

ta1243 4 days ago | parent [-]

Wow, so they've lost 40% of the original lot which were elected last year. But for some reason the press seems to think they're the official opposition.

They have the same number of MPs as the Green party, fewer than the DUP, half the SNP, and about 1/20th of the Lib Dems.

I note 75% of them didn't bother turning up to work, I'm shocked one did.

marsven_422 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[dead]

jojobas 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Clamping down on freedoms is not conservative policy.

Crap like Communications Act 2003 and Ofcom has been Labour policy for decades.

i80and 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

Clamping down on freedoms has been the raison d'être of "conservative" parties across the world my entire life

broken-kebab 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

Both "conservatism" and "freedoms" mean a lot of different things even within anglophone countries, not to mention the obvious fact that political actors of any color never strictly follow their foundational ideology. This makes me believe that speaking for the whole world is a bit too daring, and your statement is purely emotional.

permo-w 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

this is still absolutely true, but there have been some rumblings of change in recent years. "left wing" values have partially shifted from trying to provide equal freedoms for everyone, to trying to provide freedoms for perceived-as marginalised groups, often at the expense of freedoms for lesser marginalised groups. if you're part of a lesser marginalised group and you don't subscribe to that particular ideology, this is going to feel very much the same as having your freedoms clamped down upon, and conservatives have pounced upon that as a stick to beat their enemies with, and to be fair, have come some way themselves wrt to gay rights and perhaps drug prohibition and some other things. taking a step back though, conservatives, particularly in the UK, are by no means libertarians, and in the UK essentially sired the "left wing" values that they hate so much. when did the revolution start? 2010-15ish?

soraminazuki 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Conservatives clamping down on freedoms is only half of the story. They proclaim to be the strongest defender of freedom while they're at it.

JdeBP 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Here's the Conservative policy for the Online Safety Act 2023, during the Sunak government:

* https://legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2023/50/notes/division/3/in...

Here's the Conservative white paper on Online Harms from 2019, during the May government:

* https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/online-harms-whi...

blitzar 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Lets not forget the "Snoopers Charter" the party was so proud of.

cryptonector 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

To be fair, u/jojobas wrote "conservative" (little-c), not "Conservative".

scott_w 4 days ago | parent [-]

However they did also specifically reference the Labour government’s policy, so it’s reasonable to assume they were speaking in a UK context and simply forgot to capitalise it.

blitzar 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Clamping down on freedoms is not conservative policy.

Perhaps you can explain why the conservative party keep writing bills that clamp down on freedoms, introducing them, whipping their party to vote for them and signing them into law?

scott_w 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I would read the 2019 Conservative manifesto, then. Crushing democracy and judicial oversight was very much Tory policy.

asib 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Laughable. Allow me to introduce you to the anti protest legislation brought into law by Suella Braverman.

Hammershaft 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Conservatism isn't libertarianism. Conservative parties across the world, including in the anglosphere, often advocate for laws that limit freedom but accomplish ulterior conservative goals.

permo-w 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

freedom isn't just freedom. it's freedom for. conservatives tend to favour freedom for businesses. freedom for the establishment. freedom for the rich. you would hope that progressives favour freedom for everyone, but nowadays the louder voices on the left have sometimes been over-invested in freedom for culturally marginalised groups and under-invested in freedom for economically marginalised groups

wkat4242 4 days ago | parent [-]

> nowadays the louder voices on the left have sometimes been over-invested in freedom for culturally marginalised groups and under-invested in freedom for economically marginalised groups

That's just marketing from the right to discourage people with average income to vote left ("they want to give all your money to the immigrants!"). The only people the left doesn't want freedom for is those who are actively trying to take it away.

The bigger issue is that the left hasn't really existed in most countries for a long time, like the UK. "new labour" betrayed their heritage and adopted conservative points of view. Leaders who are trying to bring it back like Corbyn are ridiculed and marginalised.

permo-w 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

>That's just marketing from the right to discourage people with average income to vote left ("they want to give all your money to the immigrants!"). The only people the left doesn't want freedom for is those who are actively trying to take it away.

this is misreading what I said. what I said is that the left isn't redistributing enough money

hellojesus 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> The only people the left doesn't want freedom for is those who are actively trying to take it away.

My experience is that most progressive causes want to redistribute income from high earners to low earners. Policies such as government supported housing, daycare, support this.

These policies actively restrict freedoms by removing the freedom of choice from consumers. They introduce deadweight loss and moral hazard.

Imo this is the folly of the left.

permo-w 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

>These policies actively restrict freedoms by removing the freedom of choice from consumers. They introduce deadweight loss and moral hazard.

relate every part of this sentence to the previous sentence

wkat4242 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> My experience is that most progressive causes want to redistribute income from high earners to low earners. Policies such as government supported housing, daycare, support this.

Oh absolutely. This is the way to make a more fair and balanced society.

If the US doesn't want that, fine but it is of course also the reason for the no-go areas/ghettos, the amount of violent crime etc. Because people who are in the lowest class and have no upward mobility will tend to spiral away in crime, because that does pay.

> These policies actively restrict freedoms by removing the freedom of choice from consumers. They introduce deadweight loss and moral hazard.

We don't believe in unrestricted free-market capitalism anyway.

hellojesus 3 days ago | parent [-]

> Oh absolutely. This is the way to make a more fair and balanced society.

I understand its purpose, but it does restrict freedom. Personally I am much more a fan of charity because its voluntary nature preserves freedom, but I accept the duality of freedom is the potential for lousy initial conditions in life.

> We don't believe in unrestricted free-market capitalism anyway.

I think we should strive to push society to freer markets. Neither leading party seems to have interest, however.

wkat4242 3 days ago | parent [-]

As a socialist I don't think all markets should be free. Only the ones that aren't necessary for living. Energy, healthcare, public transport, even telecoms should be in government hands (as they all were in Holland in the 80s)

ryandv 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> My experience is that most progressive causes want to redistribute income from high earners to low earners.

> These policies actively restrict freedoms by removing the freedom of choice from consumers.

Moreover despite all the constant pearl clutching about "systemic imbalances in resources between whites and People of Color" from the progressive left, you will find that most of these policies actually transfer wealth from the middle and upper-middle class ethnic minority demographics to rich white nepotists in the government.

If progressives were actually serious about correcting racial wealth disparities, we would implement a taxation scheme that taxes whites more heavily, and ethnic minorities less so, based on some metric of the overall injustices visited upon them.

Instead, the instant an ethnic minority gets a leg up on the system all the crabs in the progressive bucket demand that he get pulled back down. The words and slogans about "equity" are just hymnal responses that the white progressive uses to absolve themselves of all responsibility and accountability, since after accepting the Code of Conduct and the DEI statement they've already been "born again" out of the original sins of implicit bias and racism.

wkat4242 3 days ago | parent [-]

Ehh at the left we don't really think in terms of 'original sin'. Most of us are not religious, these things are simply meaningless to us.

And DEI is something that is not about quotas at all. It's about having race and ethniticy not influencing the hiring process at all. Being "colorblind", which is ironically enough what Trump says how he wants things to be (but in reality he is very racist).

ryandv 3 days ago | parent [-]

> Ehh at the left we don't really think in terms of 'original sin'. Most of us are not religious, these things are simply meaningless to us.

You are under the core progressive delusion that choosing not to identify or label yourself as a thing, means you are in fact not that thing. In truth, the labeling of a thing is completely orthogonal to its ontological status.

Concrete example: most of the left believes in a "gender identity," which is an immaterial, non-objective, unobservable, unscientific, metaphysical phenomenon that is somehow "more you" than the material reality of the physical body. If you strip away the gender theory jargon, you end up with a concept equivalent to "the soul", which is in contemporary discourse usually regarded as a religious, not a scientific, concept.

You may have called it something else - a gender identity - but despite the difference in nomenclature you are still describing and referring to the same thing the religious devotees referred to when they talked about "the soul."

> It's about having race and ethniticy not influencing the hiring process at all. Being "colorblind"

Again more progressive fanfiction and creative wordsmithing with no relationship to reality. The Supreme Court struck down DEI policies (rebranded affirmative action) on the basis that they were, quoting Justice Clarence Thomas, "rudderless, race-based preferences" [0] [1]. This is literally the opposite of being "colorblind."

I stand very firm in my position that everything progressives say is a direct negation of reality.

[0] https://www.npr.org/2023/06/29/1181138066/affirmative-action...

[1] https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/supreme-courts-conserv...

wkat4242 3 days ago | parent [-]

> Concrete example: most of the left believes in a "gender identity," which is an immaterial, non-objective, unobservable, unscientific, metaphysical phenomenon that is somehow "more you" than the material reality of the physical body.

It's about feeling. Someone with a different gender feels uncomfortable in their body (and that's putting it mildly). If you declare that unscientific you can throw out the entire psychological/psychiatric sciences.

> You may have called it something else - a gender identity - but despite the difference in nomenclature you are still describing and referring to the same thing the religious devotees referred to when they talked about "the soul."

Of course, religion was invented to help people make sense of the world (and of course as a means of control). Gender identity has always existed. It makes sense that religion invented some terms to explain it away. Because as a means of control and no IVF options etc this was contrary to religions' survival. After all, religion gets passed on through upbringing. If you approach a person as an adult with this kind of stuff most of them will reject it, but as kids they are impressionable and can be indoctrinated. If people have no kids, there's no new religious minions being produced and thus the religion's survival probability is a bit affected. This is why conservative people are so obsessed about birthrates.

> Again more progressive fanfiction and creative wordsmithing with no relationship to reality. The Supreme Court struck down DEI policies (rebranded affirmative action) on the basis that they were, quoting Justice Clarence Thomas, "rudderless, race-based preferences" [0] [1]. This is literally the opposite of being "colorblind."

But DEI is not affirmative action. I work in this field myself for a big multinational. We don't do that. There are no quotas. We do measure our effectiveness with it (If you're in a country with 90% latino people and hire 80% caucasians obviously something is wrong) but we don't have hiring quotas. Instead what we do is management/HR training to recognise and avoid bias. And materials to improve understanding of minority needs, like LGBTIQ+ (which is the area I do some work in).

A lot of managers wouldn't even have known what nonbinary is for example, they would just see someone appear for an interview and dismiss them as 'weird'. They also wouldn't understand the specific issues they could encounter in the workplace. This is what we're working against.

Affirmative action is something that companies do that don't actually care about DEI but just want their "numbers" to look good. Quotas is the easiest way to solve "the numbers" but not actually do the hard work of removing bias. Meaning minority people will get hired but for the wrong reasons, and they will still have issues in the workplace resulting from lack of understanding. This is not the way to approach it, only when you're a lazy company.

ryandv 3 days ago | parent [-]

> It's about feeling.

This is equally unscientific.

> If you declare that unscientific you can throw out the entire psychological/psychiatric sciences.

May as well, given the catastrophe that is the replication crisis [2]. Besides, psychology has grown divorced from its roots, which are found in religion as a proto-psychology of mind (which is the modern term for what would have classically been known as "the soul"). You can further investigate the correspondences between religion, mysticism, and psychology in Jung's "Psychology and Alchemy."

> Gender identity has always existed.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and so far there is no evidentiary basis for the "gender identity" in the body; some would even say that there cannot be a biological basis of gender, for this "holds the societal acceptance of transgenderism hostage to a biological account of sex-gender." [0]

Absent any biological or physical evidence I can only surmise that "gender identities" either do not exist, or are metaphysical; and to the scientifically-minded, these two statements are functionally equivalent.

In fact, I could even just as easily say "souls have always existed."

The paper [0] even continues on to state, essentially, that gender is an "intersubjectival" reality, which, ironically, is defined in an Encyclopedia of Psychology and Religion:

    Rejecting the notion that knowledge is purely
    empirical and cumulative, Gergen has argued
    that “truth” is always value laden and, therefore
    (drawing from critical theory), “reality” is not
    immutable, but always is understood via interpre-
    tation [3].
A rejection of empiricism is tantamount to a rejection of science, which is based on the former; so perhaps it's not surprising after all that the philosophical basis for gender is actually a psychological/religious concept.

> as kids they are impressionable and can be indoctrinated. If people have no kids, there's no new religious minions being produced and thus the religion's survival probability is a bit affected.

Much of the LGBTQ+, almost by definition, cannot reproduce biologically and thus cannot have kids. Would you also claim that LGBTQ+'s survival probability, as a neo-religion complete with rebranded souls, is also affected? How does such an ideology reproduce, if not through indoctrination of children?

> But DEI is not affirmative action

At a layman's first glance this would appear to be the case from the SCOTUS syllabus:

    More broadly, it is becoming increasingly clear that
    discrimination on the basis of race—often packaged as “af-
    firmative action” or “equity” programs—are based on the
    benighted notion “that it is possible to tell when discrimi-
    nation helps, rather than hurts, racial minorities.” Fisher
    I, 570 U. S., at 328 (THOMAS, J., concurring). [1]
[0] https://sci-hub.se/10.1111/hypa.12327

[1] https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/22pdf/20-1199_hgdj.pdf

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis

[3] https://sci-hub.se/https://link.springer.com/referenceworken...

wkat4242 3 days ago | parent [-]

Feelings are important because they affect us. They can hurt just as much as the physical. It's a condition of the mind, not the 'soul'. That doesn't make it any less real for the person experiencing those feelings. The concept of a soul was invented, as some entity that survives after death. So that even people with nothing to lose in life could be forced to conform using the many threats religion makes to their 'afterlife'.

And LGBTIQ+ is not an ideology. People don't choose who they are attracted to. That's a conservative myth invented to make it seem like people are 'converted' to being gay or trans and that thus this could be prevented or reverted. There is no ideology nor agenda and it just is. We don't convert people. That's again a projection of something that religions do. They have agendas and conversion.

And I don't care about what the SCOTUS says. They are completely irrelevant where I live (and they should be in the US too as they are heavily politicised by the appointment process by the president).

ryandv 3 days ago | parent [-]

> It's a condition of the mind, not the 'soul'.

As stated in my previous post these are classically synonyms that refer to the exact same entity. This use of language goes back to at least Descartes (translation by E. Haldane):

    to speak accurately I am not more than a thing which thinks,
    that is to say a mind or a soul, or an understanding, or a
    reason, which are terms whose significance was formerly
    unknown to me [0].
This use of the term "soul" even goes back to Plato and Socrates, who used the Greek term psyche to refer to this concept [1] [4]. I leave the remainder of the inference to you.

> LGBTIQ+ is not an ideology.

Why not?

> We don't convert people.

No, the LGBTQ+ just bifurcate the world into "allies" and "enemies". They mandate the use of neopronouns and neodemonyms, using letters not even in the alphabets of other languages, and try to correct perceived "gendered language" in languages that have no concept of gender in their grammar to begin with. People who refuse to prostrate themselves before your linguistic imperialism get cancelled and/or fired because they are obviously deplorable bigots.

Just look at how the LGBTQ+ was pushing "Filipinx" on people they have nothing to do with, an entire fucking ocean away, despite Tagalog already being ungendered and not having a letter X in its alphabet. [3]

There were a bunch of whites who came to the Philippines and then installed not one, but two (Spanish, English) languages in the populace, to the point where time is still told in Spanish to this day, and native Filipinos cannot even speak pure Tagalog any more, resorting now to a hybrid of Tagalog and English. [2]

Call them by any other name but those all look like instances of cultural imperialism and proselytization to me. Will whites ever learn? Or are they so blinded by their self-professed virtue and ~crosses~ pride flags that they think, certainly, that they are in the right, and all the homophobes and transphobes from all those other Conservative countries need to be enlightened to 21st century morals (those godless heathens)?

> And I don't care about what the SCOTUS says.

I'm running past my point of caring too, since all you do is write falsehood without citation.

[0] https://yale.learningu.org/download/041e9642-df02-4eed-a895-...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psyche_(psychology)

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYLFoUTJuGU

[3] https://opinion.inquirer.net/133571/filipino-or-filipinx

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato%27s_theory_of_soul

Arkhaine_kupo 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> Conservatism isn't libertarianism.

Conservatism is the ideology that some people are protected by the law but not bound by it, while others are bound by the law but not protected by it.

Obviously if you are in the first group that sounds like the best kind of freedom, meanwhile everyone else is unprotected and punished, which makes sense why they would not want that kind of goverment structure.

Throwkin 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[dead]

arrowsmith 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

The Conservatives aren't a conservative party.

varispeed 5 days ago | parent [-]

Both Conservatives and Labour serve the same corporate interests. Divide et impera.

quintes 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Wow this shows labour has too many MPs and the impacts of voting for labour

subscribed 5 days ago | parent [-]

The alternative (4 more years of Tories) was still worse.

Yes, I know. still much worse