| |
| ▲ | scott_w 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | They promised a policy (Brexit) in a form that would replace immigration from European countries with immigration from non-white countries. In fact, the Tories did NOT promise to reduce immigration. They promised 2 things that are guaranteed to increase immigration: - 50,000 extra nurses (including foreign recruitment) - A points-based system, you can find articles talking about how this increases immigration Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50524262 | | |
| ▲ | Nursie 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > They promised 2 things that are guaranteed to increase immigration > A points-based system, you can find articles talking about how this increases immigration Firstly, I don't think they actually introduced one of those, did they?
And secondly, how is that guaranteed to increase immigration? The UK media and some of politicians at the time were all talking about an Australian-style points system. As someone pretty intimately acquainted with the Australian system, people (including ex-PM Teresa May) didn't seem to understand that under the Australian system - - The government sets a minimum number of points under which you won't even be considered. - The government set a maximum number of visas they will grant under the scheme each year - The people with the best points are invited to apply for those visas So with this setup the 'paper' minimum might be 65 points, but the effective threshhold is often 95 points to actually be invited to apply. Yet in the UK the picture was painted as if you set a points threshhold and that's it, anyone with more than that gets a visa and you can't possibly control the numbers. It seemed like a total misunderstanding of the scheme. They also said things like "And Australia has proportionally even higher migration than the UK under that scheme!", which is true, but again that's because the government has decided to set the amounts of visas at that level and sets them higher or lower, or adjusts which skills get more points, according to perceived need for skilled people. Aus has higher migration under their points scheme as a choice. The UK could have chosen to limit skilled visas under a similar program to a much lower level. As far as I could tell, all of the articles and talking points at the time entirely ignored this. | | |
| ▲ | blitzar 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > Firstly, I don't think they actually introduced one of those, did they? Boris introduced 2 million (legal) immigrants in the first (unaffected) year we "took back control" of the borders under the new system rolled out in 2020 The UK's new points-based immigration system - https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-... | | |
| ▲ | Nursie 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Oh they did introduce a system, OK, wasn't aware. Perhaps in all the talk of making the system like the Australian one, they missed the crucial part of it - that you also apply limits to the visas you issue. In fact it looks like that's exactly what happened, they introduced a Skilled Worker visa with no quota. | | |
| ▲ | blitzar 4 days ago | parent [-] | | The solution to all the problems was delivered. Promises made, promises delivered, will of the people. |
|
| |
| ▲ | scott_w 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Firstly, I don't think they actually introduced one of those, did they? The fact they didn't introduce it doesn't change the fact that adding 50,000 nurses required an increase in immigration. I went back and re-read the article, they also promised more childcare places. Guess what? That also requires more immigration. In fact, I just read the manifesto itself and they also added a "fast-track NHS visa," so we have a clear "let's increase immigration" policy right in your face! Page 22, hilariously right next to where they promise "numbers will come down." > They also said things like "And Australia has proportionally even higher migration than the UK under that scheme!", which is true, but again that's because the government has decided to set the amounts of visas at that level and sets them higher or lower You're correct, the government can choose to give out less visas, and they hinted that they would in the manifest (page 22). But if you read the rest of the manifesto, you realise quickly that the two goals can't be achieved at the same time. It's like promising to cure cancer by shooting the patient. Look, we can argue about this until the cows come home but, if you voted Tory because you thought they would bring immigration numbers down, then you should have read their manifesto. The fact that they were never able to do this was right there! Going back to "I voted for Brexit," then complaining about Brexit. Well, that's also something that there's no excuse for. In December 2019, the deal that was to be agreed was known. If you didn't like what it said about fishing or whatever, well, tough shit. You agreed to it when you put your tick in the box for Conservative. --- Manifesto: https://cdn.prod.website-files.com/5da42e2cae7ebd3f8bde353c/... | | |
| ▲ | Nursie 4 days ago | parent [-] | | I think we're talking at cross-purposes here - I'm not really taking a position one way or another on whether the Tories would/could have reduced immigration, and they certainly didn't deliver on that. I was just pretty flabbergasted at the time by the blanket misunderstandings of the system that was being talked about, seemingly from all sides. I didn't vote for them either way :shrug: | | |
| ▲ | scott_w 4 days ago | parent [-] | | I think it's important to understand the context, which is where my initial reply was aimed at: > Wtf are you talking about? The Conservatives promised to reduce immigration in 2019. Taken with that context, it's important to understand the manifesto to realise they didn't really "promise" to reduce immigration. > I was just pretty flabbergasted at the time by the blanket misunderstandings of the system A lot of blame belongs with our media. Frankly, it's piss-poor, barely goes beyond surface level reading of things and attempts to get soundbites out of politicians. I get more out of random YouTubers and podcasters, which has its own problems because how do you know which ones know what they're talking about? | | |
| ▲ | scott_w 4 days ago | parent [-] | | > I didn't vote for them either way :shrug: Just to clarify on this point, I didn't mean "you" as in literally "you," I intended this in the informal "you" that's used in British English to indirectly refer to a group of people. | | |
| ▲ | Nursie 4 days ago | parent [-] | | I know, just wanted to be sure I wasn’t coming across as a frustrated Tory voter! |
|
|
|
|
| |
| ▲ | amiga386 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > In fact, the Tories did NOT promise to reduce immigration. In fact they did. They promised to reduce immigration. They did the opposite of what you just said. Their 2019 manifesto said "There will be fewer lower-skilled migrants and overall numbers will come
down." Source: PDF linked on https://conservativehome.com/2019/12/06/read-the-conservativ... | | |
| |
| ▲ | teamonkey 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | There were also the matters of Johnson throwing a Covid party, Truss tanking the economy within a few weeks of taking office, and Sunak being useless and generally taking the hit for a flacid economy. | | |
| ▲ | arrowsmith 4 days ago | parent [-] | | All of those are true but I promise you that the median conservative voter can forgive all of those far sooner than they’ll forgive the Boriswave. |
|
|
