Remix.run Logo
conductr 5 days ago

My wife is in the retail side of this market and I’ve had a lot of second hand familiarity with the transition to lab grown.

What I find most interesting is the weight put on the ethical side. I think it’s overstated. When the issue became big, the Blood Diamond movie, sales of lab grown did not markedly increase. It took another decade or so to become more prevalent. What changed over that time is the price, IIRC the price was comparable to natural at the time the movie came out. Ethics were not compelling enough for most people at that price. When prices got about 50% of natural, it became much more compelling. Now that it’s around 10%, it’s practically so compelling that buying natural isn’t even a real consideration for many people.

Anyways, I think people use the Blood Diamond talking point as a socially acceptable reason- it’s what they tell their parents and grandparents who might judge them- but in reality it’s almost completely a financial decision. If the tables were turned and natural diamonds became 1/10th the cost of lab grown, the market would completely flip back practically overnight.

stocksinsmocks 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

It’s also worth noting that diamonds for jewelry have very little to no used market value or appreciation. Natural diamonds might be worth the premium if they could be a store of value like gold, but that isn’t the case. I think that is a clue to the absence of a fair market dynamic.

ChrisMarshallNY 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

It’s really weird, how popular culture keeps using diamonds as (usually ill-gotten) currency. In reality, they are pretty terrible for the purpose, and I think most people are aware of that.

Buying diamonds has always been expensive, but selling them, is another matter, entirely.

Also, deBeers invented the diamond wedding ring fairly recently. My mother’s wedding ring was a big-ass sapphire. If you look at classical wedding rings, they are often non-diamond stones.

lupusreal 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

I think most of that perception comes from cultural depictions of jewel thieves. If you're stealing the diamonds, not paying for them, then they're a very concealable and conveniently value-dense. It doesn't matter to a jewel thief that the tiny little shard of shiny gravel was originally purchased for many thousands of dollars. What he cares about is he can hide it anywhere and get hundreds of dollars for it. Much better than stealing TVs.

dragonwriter 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> Also, deBeers invented the diamond wedding ring fairly recently.

The DeBeers campaign that boosted the already significant popularity of diamond engagement rings was in 1947. I don't think diamonds or other gemstones on wedding (as opposed to engagement) rings have ever been a major thing (though I'm sure some people do that.)

Tiffany, I think, did a big push a few decades before that did a lot for the popularity of diamond engagement rings among the middle class, and diamond engagement rings had been popular among the upper class since something like the Victorian era.

ChrisMarshallNY 4 days ago | parent [-]

Thanks for the clarification.

As far as I know, diamonds have been a big deal as engagement stones for a long time, but their role as exclusive stones, is pretty recent.

olalonde 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I think that is a clue to the absence of a fair market dynamic.

Also probably due in part to what's been called the best advertising slogan of the 20th century: "A Diamond is Forever" [0]. The implication being that you're not supposed to sell (or buy) a used diamond.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Beers#Marketing

jfengel 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

So if I wanted to get a used diamond on the cheap, where would I go? Estate sale? Pawn shop?

Perhaps to have a jeweller set it in a different setting?

milofeynman 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

You can just order brand new ones from China for even cheaper I imagine. https://www.npr.org/2019/03/14/703472647/saying-i-do-to-lab-...

cluckindan 5 days ago | parent [-]

Just make sure to pay your taxes and avoid decaf coffee, otherwise some college kid is going to buy one for you and install it in your basement porta-potty time machine.

ta1243 4 days ago | parent [-]

I learnt a lot about Colonial America from that game

jbeninger 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I bought mine from therealreal.com. I got a lot more ring than I'd normally be able to afford, and it's an elegant design you don't see everywhere.

Check with the recipient beforehand, of course. You're not the one who has to wear it, and no amount of logic is going to change a mind that wants a brand new, natural diamond.

SoftTalker 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Yes to all your questions. Be wary though, especially at pawn shops. Those places are not bastions of integrity.

herbst 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This! Buying expensive things can be fun and reasonable. But only if they have an actual worth and aren't just expensive for the sake of.

It's so weird a product marketet like this even got any popularity within "normal" people.

geokon 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

im a bit confused ... how can most people know if the diamond has been "used"?

you typically buy jewelry with a diamond in it. the jewler could gave bought it new or pried it out of an old ring. How would you know ? (and why would anyone care?)

jsmith99 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

It is not so much that used diamonds are worth less (although they might decline in value without provenance to prove they are natural or if they are chipped) but the huge markup on retail jewellery. It's easy for any member of the public to buy and sell gold at close to market price, it's much harder with diamonds.

nordsieck 4 days ago | parent [-]

> It is not so much that used diamonds are worth less (although they might decline in value without provenance to prove they are natural or if they are chipped) but the huge markup on retail jewellery.

Precisely.

And on top of that some jewelry stores are worried that customers would consider a below wholesale offer to be insulting, so they often refuse to buy piece back at all.

chongli 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Jewellery stores have started supplying certificates of pedigree with diamonds they sell. This helps to reassure the customer that the diamond is not second-hand.

No one wants to buy used diamonds.

dotancohen 4 days ago | parent [-]

  > No one wants to buy used diamonds.
Why not?
thechao 4 days ago | parent [-]

The naturally clamp tightly to the spirits of the dead. Don't wanna be dragging your dead great aunt's ghost the night club.

cantor_S_drug 4 days ago | parent [-]

Dude I am breathing dead carbon atoms of Hitler and Einstein. There is no such adverse effects.

javcasas 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

You are obviously affected by this ailment called "science-based critical thinking". It is bad (for business) so you should consult an astrologist or a zen furniture arranger to seek remediation.

prerok 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Ooh, well, the next time I buy FreshAir (sorry Perri-Air) from Druidia, I'll make double-sure to check who breathed it before.

mec31 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Of course, in your particular case, the Jesus atoms may outnumber the other two. So you’re probably good.

fluidcruft 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Mostly because styles of cuts have changed.

Workaccount2 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Just yesterday I was joking with friends that I wish I could give my soon to be fiancee a gold ring with a diamond shaped gold nugget in the setting as an engagement ring...

kergonath 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> What I find most interesting is the weight put on the ethical side. I think it’s overstated. When the issue became big, the Blood Diamond movie, sales of lab grown did not markedly increase.

It was not a switch that was pushed the moment the movie went out. In the grand scheme of things, the movie was not even that popular. But there definitely was a realisation that diamond prices were completely artificially inflated by an oligopoly, and that there were many issues with how they were sourced.

Just because demand did not follow a step function when the file was released does not imply that ethics are not relevant.

throwaway2037 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

Wiki says: "The film grossed $171 million worldwide and received five Oscar nominations..."

That is popular by any reasonable definition.

yorwba 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

That makes it popular for a movie. It also means that most people didn't watch it, at least not in theaters. (I guess that would be true even for the most popular movie of all time. The most popular thing in some category is rarely more popular than the entire rest of the category combined.)

kergonath 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Even if every viewer paid $1, that would be 171 millions people, which really is not that much compared to even the population of North America and Europe combined.

Eisenstein 4 days ago | parent [-]

Most people don't watch films in the theater run exclusively. It has been viewed by many hundreds of millions of people after it left the box office. Also, network effects account for a lot. One person seeing the film and talking about blood diamonds to their friends and family leads to 2 others who look into it, which leads to 4 more, etc. That's how ideas spread.

kergonath 4 days ago | parent [-]

It does not exist in a vacuum. I am not even arguing that the movie was irrelevant, but it was not that huge a deal and it was not the only voice in the discussion. The point in the parent was that ethics was not a driver because there was no inflection point when the movie was released, which to me is fallacious.

mattmaroon 3 days ago | parent [-]

He’s also just got his timing wrong. The movie came out when artificial diamonds were scarce and pricey. The technology accelerated after that, and the shifting mores could definitely have played a part.

indymike 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> Just because demand did not follow a step function when the file was released does not imply that ethics are not relevant.

The movie exposed an opportunity - what if we could have diamonds without the oppression? Oppression is very high cost.

snowwrestler 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

But one big reason lab-grown diamonds are so much less expensive now is economy of scale. Something had to start increasing the demand to enable that. Especially considering the large marketing investment against lab-grown gems by established players, trying to make them seem “tacky.” The ethical issues have been a very capable counter-message to that.

zahlman 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

> Something had to start increasing the demand to enable that.

Yes — industry. From Wikipedia:

> Eighty percent of mined diamonds (equal to about 135,000,000 carats (27,000 kg) annually) are unsuitable for use as gemstones and are used industrially.[131] In addition to mined diamonds, synthetic diamonds found industrial applications almost immediately after their invention in the 1950s; in 2014, 4,500,000,000 carats (900,000 kg) of synthetic diamonds were produced, 90% of which were produced in China. Approximately 90% of diamond grinding grit is currently of synthetic origin.[132]

> ...

> Industrial use of diamonds has historically been associated with their hardness, which makes diamond the ideal material for cutting and grinding tools. As the hardest known naturally occurring material, diamond can be used to polish, cut, or wear away any material, including other diamonds. Common industrial applications of this property include diamond-tipped drill bits and saws, and the use of diamond powder as an abrasive.

snowwrestler 5 days ago | parent [-]

The process to produce industrial diamonds (essentially, very hard dust) does not meaningfully help scale the process to produce first-quality synthetic diamond gems for jewelry.

As your quote points out, synthetic industrial diamonds have been available for many decades. But it is only recently that synthetic diamond gems have achieved popularity and price advantage for jewelry.

Animats 5 days ago | parent [-]

Diamond dust used to be the main industrial product. But as diamond synthesis has improved, cutting tools are now using larger diamonds.[1] This has been a big win for the well-drilling industry. Newer bits cut rock, and with diamond, they last long enough to get the job done. The classic Hughes tricone bit, the thing that looks like a set of bevel gears, is not a cutter. It's a rock crusher.[2] It cracks by compressive force.

(Patents were really strong back then. Howard Hughes, Sr. became the richest man in the world by buying the patent for the drill bit. He then manufactured bits and rented them out for a fraction of the profits from the oil well.)

[1] https://www.slb.com/products-and-services/innovating-in-oil-...

[2] https://www.texasmonthly.com/being-texan/texas-primer-the-hu...

inetknght 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> Something had to start increasing the demand to enable that.

Diamonds are used in all kinds of things besides jewelry. Industry needs that economy of scale.

acjacobson 5 days ago | parent [-]

True but industrial grade natural diamonds are very inexpensive in comparison to jewelry quality ones.

grues-dinner 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

It depends what you use it for. Abrasives can use pretty much any horrible misshapen brown rock of roughly the right size.

But there are also applications for larger flawless crystals in things like diamond windows, semiconductor substrate and microtomes. Recently you can even buy a diamond 3D printer nozzle for extruding abrasive materials like carbon fibre. These require better processes than the ones that churn out abrasive diamonds.

ReptileMan 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

A rising tide lifts all boats. The demand for industrial diamonds is insatiable. And for bigger grits. This leads to people learning how to make bigger and stronger diamonds. Eventually some of the knowledge and tech will percolate to the jewelry side.

cwmoore 4 days ago | parent [-]

So simply, produced over time by a different kind of intense heat and pressure.

Spooky23 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Years and years of “diamonds suck” make a mark. It’s an evergreen topic online for a long time, and the people looking at engagement rings in 2025 have been aware of the shittiness of the diamond business for years.

The mining, corrupt trade practices, etc are all well known and sometimes subject to enforcement action.

j45 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

There were some pretty major articles in the past 20 years challenging the pr Cambodian that was diamonds.

The thing about today is many pale aren’t seater horse beliefs and preferences (“trends”) can be manufactured.

Social media is a different kind of amplifier the past few years.

spwa4 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Seems to be the opposite ...

heavyset_go 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think it's a generational thing. Younger generations genuinely cared about the implicit exploitation and violence in the industry, older didn't.

See also: views on climate change, adoption of renewable energy, etc.

jonplackett 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

It’s an interesting comparison though because equally solar / electric cars only really went mass market when they became economically a good deal

moate 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

"When a thing becomes affordable more people have access to it." nods nods

So is our conclusion "People talk a big game but their morality clearly fails based on how the market has played out" or "People want things but the market has competing forces and sometimes takes a long time to find ways to provide people what they want?"

My rephrasing to your statement is "It took the mass market decades to figure out how to deliver consumers the solar/electric cars they wanted at a price they could afford."

Also, points in the general direction of the established energy providers I think these assholes had some incentive not to let the market get out from under them and make sure they were the ones who continued to profit from it.

jMyles 5 days ago | parent [-]

> My rephrasing to your statement is "It took the mass market decades to figure out how to deliver consumers the solar/electric cars they wanted at a price they could afford."

Nicely stated. I like your style of debate / deliberation.

5 days ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
j45 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Such topics were being taught since the 80s, maybe it takes time to teacher hold.

If ethical mining were an issue today would they lay down their devices that use critical minerals?

Solar energy was quite expensive until recently to improve adoption.

mensetmanusman 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Younger generations have none percent of the wealth to make these decisions compared to the boomers.

refurb 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

That seems like an obvious observation?

People accumulate wealth over a life time of work. It would be entirely expect that younger generations have less wealth than older generations.

ghushn3 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

If that was true, you'd expect the younger professionals of today would have comparative amounts of wealth to the boomers when they were young professionals. It's absolutely not the case. Each generation is getting poorer and poorer as they hit the same benchmarks.

This tracks with broad trends of wealth inequality increasing as well.

So no, it's not just "they haven't accumulated yet", because it's not clear they will have the opportunity to do so.

naveen99 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Boomers had a lot more sibling and lot smaller inheritances coming to them. Kids these days will inherit a lot more and share a lot less with siblings.

prerok 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Capital of the 21st century by Piketty. Highly recommended reading. It points out how slow degradation will happen.

You are right in a sense. But it's still a very bad prognosis.

adaml_623 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Unless Boomers live long enough to spend the inheritance on nursing homes

JumpCrisscross 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> you'd expect the younger professionals of today would have comparative amounts of wealth to the boomers when they were young professionals. It's absolutely not the case

Source? The data I’ve seen indicate the median millennial is wealthier than the median boomer was at their age.

ghushn3 3 days ago | parent [-]

https://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/z1/dataviz/dfa/distr...

Boomers held significantly higher percentages of capital than millenials or genx holding age steady.

https://www.nber.org/papers/w27123

Studies have shown wealth declining for millenials while increasing for boomers.

https://www.self.inc/info/generational-wealth-gap/

And it's across multiple forms of wealth.

DonHopkins 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

The point isn't comparing boomers and younger generations buying diamonds NOW, but when they marry. Boomers typically don't wait till they're 60 to get married.

j45 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Historically very few generations start out with wealth when they’re young? :)

Most of it is earned over time.

karaterobot 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> Younger Americans (millennials and Gen Zers) owned $1.35 for every $1 of wealth owned by baby boomers at the same age.

https://www.stlouisfed.org/community-development/publication...

moate 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

Um, I'm going to go ahead and point out this, probably not super relevant data point

"While trailing Gen Xers for the beginning of their adult lives, younger American households’ average wealth began to exceed that of Gen Xers at about age 30, reflecting historically high wealth levels following the COVID-19 pandemic." I have a feeling that average wealth adjustment falls very heavily on the home owners, which is only just above half of all the cohort. Had a similar thing happened to boomers in 89, almost 70% would have benefitted.

I think it's also worth pointing out: The share of wealth held by boomers in 89 (why 89? Because they didn't have data before that. It's why the graphs start in a weird spot and why it's not a great study unless you're trying to pull out a "gotcha" stat) represented almost 20% of the total wealth in the country. "Millenials/GenZ" has a hold on only HALF that percentage.

Doctors may hate your one weird statistic, but socio-demographists probably don't...

JumpCrisscross 4 days ago | parent [-]

> have a feeling that average wealth adjustment falls very heavily on the home owners, which is only just above half of all the cohort

This is also true for other generations.

nyc_data_geek 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

>At the same age

Boomers have had significantly longer and better sustained market conditions to grow their wealth.

eastbound 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

It’s not generations, it’s age ;) Younger generations are still idealists. With age, you get betrayed in your ideals. You discover scientific studies weren’t so scientific as they get turned over one by one. It’s something like: Ice caps will still melt, and everything you did for the better, bad luck, they’ll have increased the warming. Same when we tried to eat better against cancer or raised or fists to defend gay people. I don’t want you to believe you’re generation won’t suffer the same fate ;)

ghushn3 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

> With age, you get betrayed in your ideals.

Some of us old-heads got pushed much farther left as a result of this. I used to be a Democrat, blue and blue. These days I'm much more like, "The Dems will sell me out to make a buck, I gotta go out and actually be the change I want to see in the world."

Young folks who are experiencing disillusion -- don't give in to despair. You can make a meaningful difference in lives. Build communities, engage in mutual aid, whatever.

j45 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Well said.

Where people are waiting for change and the movement, they don’t realize they are the change and the movement.

throawaywpg 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

yeah, I was disillusioned with the establishment left, so I just looked for the non-establishment left (but not so non-establishment that they idolized the Soviets).

DonHopkins 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I never imagined I'd see a black president, same sex marriage, or cannabis legalization in my lifetime!

Now would be a terrible time to become disillusioned and despairing, after winning all those important battles. It proves that idealism works, and we really need it for current and future battles! It's the nihilistic disillusioned people who are CAUSING all the problems.

In so many aspects of life, I've noticed how there's always something devastatingly discouraging that happens right before any major successful breakthrough.

It's as if God's being a dick, and always throws something profoundly disheartening at you right on the precipice of success, just so he can laugh at you for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

I now recognize that as a sign I'm just about to succeed, and shouldn't give up no matter what.

We are living through that kind of historic transition right now, watching MAGA finally turn on Trump. Don't fuck it up by giving up now!

Braxton1980 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Both racism against Blacks and homophobia has been significantly reduced when comparing previous decades to today.

Doesn't that show younger generations have a markable improvement in "being good"?

const_cast 4 days ago | parent [-]

Yes but you see, now we have a trans person in some sport somewhere who did kind of okay in a competition nobody cares about, and that undoes all the good. Unfortunately, we have to burn it all down and start over.

... or so populist messaging from the Right would have you believe.

5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
jacquesm 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The way the scientific method works has been well understood since it was first formulated, you simply found out much too late.

moate 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I have to say, sample size of 2, but as we get older my wife and I get further and further entrenched in our idealism.

I was a center-left socialist as a kid and I'm a full blown anarchist in my 40's so, idk, "people aren't a monolith"?

Braxton1980 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Why would finding out that some scientific studies weren't done correctly change any person's views when this is always the case and no one has ever said otherwise?

DonHopkins 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

mattmaroon 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Blood Diamond came out in 2006. Prices were not comparable at that point and they barely existed. The ethics could easily have played a strong part in driving the demand that evolved the technology to the point where it became affordable.

But in any case, these aren’t mutually exclusive. People want conflict free diamonds but not to spend a years pay getting one.

jsbisviewtiful 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

More people have caught on to the many terrible things about natural diamonds over time and now we are finally at the tipping point for lab grown to dismantle the unethical natural diamond trade. The idea of lab grown needed time to gestate with the public, which has been manipulated for decades about the “value” of natural diamonds. Even when lab grown became a thing, the natural diamond trade did its damnedest to manipulate the public on the quality of lab grown vs natural. Coincidentally, natural diamonds are overvalued due to decades of market manipulation by a monopoly.

aprilthird2021 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I actually predict in a few years it will become more fashionable to wear other jewels over diamonds given the rate the prices are crashing at. When diamonds are competitive with all the other gemstones, people start looking at those the same way too

lovich 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

Lab rubies, sapphires, emeralds and basically anything you can think of with a known chemical makeup is being produced en masse by factories all over India and China.

Here’s just one sellers assortment of various “roughs” https://www.gemsngems.com/product-category/rough-stones/lab-...

As someone who doesn’t care about the authenticity of the gems provenance and only about having consistent physical properties for rock tumbling and gem faceting, it’s been very nice for the budget

spwa4 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Diamonds are quite possibly the only stone that isn't yet essentially 100% artificial. Rubies, the next hardest stone, is trivial to make artificially:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybcdRQmQcHQ

rowanG077 5 days ago | parent [-]

moissanite is harder than ruby afaik. Also more beautiful than diamond imo.

BobAliceInATree 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You're a few years too late, as this trend has been been happening for a decade at this point. You can find many articles online about how millenialls and now gen-z are ditching diamonds.

alfiedotwtf 4 days ago | parent [-]

Are they ditching diamonds because if fashion, or are they ditching diamonds like they’re ditching buying houses? I would bet affordability is more likely the cause of decline in younger people

aprilthird2021 a day ago | parent [-]

Diamonds have absolutely catered in affordability in the last few years, so I think it's probably fashionable. I've seen more and more people say they want something different than a diamond ring and I think part of it is that they aren't worth multiples of any other ring anymore

holowoodman 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

But as soon as that happens, other gemstones will come in cheaper artificial varieties as well.

SpicyLemonZest 5 days ago | parent [-]

The biggest diamond alternative today, moissanite, is always artificial - ironically because its natural form is so rare that it's not obtainable.

tsimionescu 5 days ago | parent [-]

The point is more that people would move to gemstones that don't look like diamonds, if diamonds start being perceived as cheap. Moissanite was popular because it's not immediately obvious it's not a diamond, while diamonds were popular.

LightBug1 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Not necessarily.

When prices are equal, I'd wager the decision is: "if prices are equal why wouldn't I buy the "real" thing? I'll just try and justify to myself that it's sourced correctly".

When the price of the grown diamonds falls, the decision might be: "Ok, so grown diamonds are cheaper AND more ethical? Ok, I'm definitely buying grown".

If the ethics factor didn't exist, "real" diamonds would still retain the kudos and still be valued highly over "nice but fake" diamonds.

It's the ethics factor that pushes the decision over the line.

As an n=1 economic animal, that's what my behaviour would have been anyway.

XorNot 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

Why would someone with ethical concerns still buy a diamond and not just choose another gemstone if somehow synthetic was more expensive?

And it's all marketing anyway: slap a "condensed from pure carbon" campaign out there and suddenly natural diamonds are fake rich and not as pure or precise or something.

tsimionescu 5 days ago | parent [-]

Because there is a century now of diamonds being associated with certain cultural elements in US life, and that's not easy to take away overnight. Lots of people expect a diamond ring as part of an engagement - not just the future bride, but their friends, family, co-workers. A sapphire ring or an opal ring or a ruby ring will not be easily accepted - it will be seen as weird, or cheap, or anti-traditional, etc.

Now sure, this concept was manufactured to a great extent through marketing, and it can be replaced or just fall out of favor. But established culture changes very slowly, and there's no "other gemstones cartel" to throw money at this the way DeBeers did to establish the diamond engagement ring in the first place.

smohare 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

lern_too_spel 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> When the issue became big, the Blood Diamond movie, sales of lab grown did not markedly increase

Other people would still assume you might have bought a blood diamond, so instead of buying a lab diamond, I would expect these people to have bought another gem if they bought a gemstone at all.

SenHeng 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

My then-gf (now wife) and I watched a movie together about an African man whose village got raided, him put into slavery to search for diamonds and his son becoming a child soldier by the same people and their struggles to get free, and finally pawn off a pink diamond to one of the largest diamond companies in London. At the end of it, she finally came to realise that the diamond trade was really quite shitty. And we had a long discussion about the whole thing, as well as the growth of the synthetic diamonds industry and how they’re much better on the supposed 4C properties as well as on price.

Yet in the end she still wanted to get a ring from one of the big names because that’s what she grew up with and what she had always dreamt of since young.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

conductr 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

My wife too. She’s a jewelery buyer for national retailer, she was well aware, even has visited mines and seen the conditions first hand, admitted how good lab grown was for ethics, etc. yet- her inner 5 year old princess wedding dream won her mind and she couldn’t envision anything other than a natural diamond for her wedding set.

Matthyze 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Similar story here. Goes to show how effective brainwashing kids as an advertisement technique is.

nautikos1 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

So she wanted a real diamond because it's more expensive than a synthetic diamond.

The irony is that as synthetic diamonds become indistinguishable from naturals, the price will plummet over time.

pyrolistical 4 days ago | parent [-]

I have a diamond to sell her then. It a flawless synthetic diamond that has been hand curated. It’s a one of one. Therefore it is even more expensive than so called real diamonds

userbinator 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What I find most interesting is the weight put on the ethical side. I think it’s overstated.

Virtue-signaling has always been a thing, and apparently quite useful for marketing to certain segments of the population.

apparent 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think it reached a tipping point. It used to be that there wasn't much of a cost advantage, so people assumed you bought the real thing. Now that the lab-made diamonds are super cheap, many people will assume you bought one of those. When that's the case, people feel like they might as well buy the cheaper ones. It's like people buying natural mined diamonds are chumps. No one will know you spent more unless you talk about how it's natural (and that makes you annoying).

j45 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Strange, having been in the market for a diamond 10 y ago, I distinctly remember man made diamonds were noticeably cheaper.

I wonder if my spreadsheet still exists.

Also recent synthetic diamonds adding some kind of a marker to the synthetic diamond.

Today it makes one think there’s likely synthetic diamonds mixed in with real ones somewhere.

forkeep 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[dead]

forkeep 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

jterrys 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What you're seeing in the drop of value of diamonds also reflects the general shift in tastes of different generations with income. I'm a person that likes to go to flea markets and antique stores on the rare occasion and the value of the same items on the market has drastically shifted in the last 10 years as boomers are no longer in the collectible age bracket. Younger people don't really care about Tiffany jewelry

aerostable_slug 5 days ago | parent [-]

Depends a lot on the demographic. It's still popular with young people who express status and success through culturally relevant jewelry styles (often influenced by hip-hop and sports culture).

It's more status-forward than authenticity-forward consumption, and many jewelers can assure you that it's very much still in vogue in some areas.

conductr 5 days ago | parent [-]

When discussing market shifts I think the relative nature of all these points needs to be considered. There will of course always be pockets of exceptions, but on a relative basis the prior comment is correct.

Getting married is less common which in of itself is a huge reduction to diamond jewelry demand. Of course there’s probably some town that marriage is at an all time high.

eddiewithzato 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Nah it’s also environmentally, mining is bad. And if there is an alternative with no mining, people will opt for that.

jMyles 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What about the size of the market as a whole? Was there a drawdown during the period in question?

Is it possible that people decreased purchases of diamonds altogether in response to ethical qualms (in favor of other jewels or precious items), and then were later motivated by price to go with lab-grown diamonds?

ghushn3 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don't think those are orthogonal.

Natural diamonds are more expensive, and they therefore have a conspicuous consumption element to them. That could be valuable as a means to gain social cachet. Except you'd have to speak loudly about how they were natural.

And in doing so you are loudly proclaiming you don't care about human suffering it took to get the diamonds. That's probably fine in very wealthy circles, but in upper middle class/upper-upper middle class circles, it's likely quite gauche.

If the natural ones didn't have this faux pas attached to them by default, then they might carry more interest as a "I saved up for these" class indicator.

grues-dinner 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

> have a conspicuous consumption element to them

I've never understood this really because no-one carries their GIA certificate with them. With the existence of moissanite and artificial stones, it should be a "market for lemons" situation where a given stone on someone's finger is assumed low-value by default.

DonHopkins 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

pengaru 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

When I was a kid in the 80s my mother worked at a jewelry store and CZ diamonds were already considered cheap fakes at the time. The price was not comparable to the real deal because nobody was buying them at diamond prices.

They were simply dismissed as more trash belonging in the gold-plated case. It's hard to appreciate how much less informed people were back then - we're talking pre-internet. The adults around me couldn't explain scientifically what the actual difference was between a CZ and natural diamond. Just one was a fake, held little value, and was a sure way to lose your fiance.

thfuran 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

Cubic zirconia isn't synthetic diamond at all.

heavyset_go 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

They were marketed as synthetic diamond alternatives in the layman sense, even if they are not composed of actual diamonds.

pengaru 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think convincing the public of that after CZ poisoned the well has been an uphill battle.

asdfasvea 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

You sound just like the adults he was talking about.

thfuran 5 days ago | parent [-]

They literally aren't diamond. They contain no carbon. Because they're zirconia, not diamond. They're marketed as an alternative to diamond.

musicale 5 days ago | parent [-]

How do CZ gemstones compare to diamond gemstones visually/in person? It looks like CZ has a lower refraction index but higher color dispersion vs. diamond, so that seems like it would still result in an attractive gemstone. The main disadvantages seem to be slightly lower refractive index (so less internal reflection and brilliance?), lower hardness (disadvantage for the gem getting scratches - possible advantage for not scratching your sapphire glass watch or smartphone camera lens?!) and higher weight.

edit: seems that moissanite (silicon carbide, perhaps unsurprisingly) is another diamond-like (though hexagonal crystals vs. cubic for diamond or CZ) gemstone that is actually harder than sapphire and less prone to fracture than diamond.

garciasn 5 days ago | parent [-]

To everyone except those with a trained eye, they're virtually indistinguishable; however, because CZ isn't as hard, they tend to scratch and dull over time and thus lose their luster.

If we're talking about 'quality', CZ just doesn't compare for longevity. That said, unless you're talking about a daily-wearing-for-many-years piece of jewelry (i.e., an engagement ring), CZ is just fine for most folks, especially considering the cost difference.

mortos 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

You got good responses to the rest but

> The adults around me couldn't explain scientifically what the actual difference was between a CZ and natural diamond.

I was told growing up you can just check with window glass. If the gem scratches it's CZ and if the glass scratches it's diamond.

CZ is very cheap costume jewelry and won't last as it scratches and dulls so easily

m463 5 days ago | parent [-]

I remember watching a documentary about a man who would marry (multiple) women, then steal their money and leave.

one of the victims said she had doubted the ring he gave her was real, but he just scratched a mirror with it to prove it was real. Then she said "it was only later after he left that I found cz can also scratch glass"

mortos 4 days ago | parent [-]

I just looked it up and CZ is harder than glass, so disregard what I said above!

npteljes 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>Ethics were not compelling enough for most people

This matches my experience with people, including myself. I think it's about the feedback. The price pain or the energy pain is readily and immediately felt, whereas ethics violations are not, as people are shielded from the impact externally, and have many defenses against it internally as well.

indymike 4 days ago | parent [-]

Even 29 years ago, my wife did not want a diamond because she didn't want a fruit of oppression, slavery and murder on her finger.

npteljes 4 days ago | parent [-]

That's cool!

indymike 3 days ago | parent [-]

She is cool. I'm lucky!

5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
DonsDiscountGas 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The quality of lab grown also improved a lot over that time

jjtheblunt 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

i think you overlooked a general revulsion towards monopoly and therefore DeBeers, their laughable (though long effective) marketing, though agree it's mainly economic.

Night_Thastus 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

People love to claim the moral high ground, believing themselves so much better. So much more noble. So much smarter.

But at the end of the day, they always do the exact same thing - buy whatever is cheaper. Doesn't matter if it's produced with slave labor, or child labor, or the product of corporate government coups.

They put all that out of their mind, and just buy the product. They rationalize it or conveniently forget it or just pretend it doesn't apply to them. Whatever will get them past it.

A similar topic: Does anyone think things like solar and wind are being used out of the goodness of anyone's heart? Concern for the next generations? A desire to give clean air to our youth? Sympathy for sufferers of all of the horrible diseases and respiratory problems? Concern about lands lost to rising seas?

No. It's because they got cheaper than fossil fuels. Anything else is fantasy.

albumen 4 days ago | parent [-]

You do realise there are different categories of users? There’s consistent evidence that early adopters and ethically motivated consumers accept price premiums to align purchases with values, identity, or status; only later—when technologies mature—do cost considerations dominate for mainstream buyers.

Solar PV: https://research.chalmers.se/publication/520553/file/520553_...

EVs: https://ia600108.us.archive.org/view_archive.php?archive=/24...

Renewable energy premiums: https://research-hub.nrel.gov/en/publications/will-consumers...

Fair Trade: https://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Shared%20Documents/conferences/2...

Night_Thastus 4 days ago | parent [-]

Those are very rare exceptions, and generally from people who already have enough money that it makes next to no difference what they buy. Or it's just performative, they're doing it for the sake of appearances.