| ▲ | dankai 5 days ago |
| "The Chamber therefore found reasonable grounds to believe that Mr Netanyahu and Mr Gallant bear criminal responsibility for the war crime of starvation as a method of warfare." Whats perhaps interesting to note is that this charge was made for "just" 41 [1] confirmed starvation deaths among a population of 2,141,643 people [2]. Of course every death caused by intentional starvation is a severe crime and must be punished, but in the context of the victim numbers that most past crimes against humanity have had, it sets a relatively low new bar. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip_famine [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip |
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| ▲ | shihab 5 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| This is common and expected. Even when a serial killer suspected of 20 murder is apprehended, arrest is often made based on one or two confirmed cases, more charges are later added as investigation deepens. Also, keep in mind foreign journalists are completely banned by Israel from entering Gaza- complicating evidence gathering. |
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| ▲ | culi 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | This is not how the ICC conducts its investigations. The "41+" figure is from a Wikipedia article that is undergoing an edit war. The very source it is citing actually says 63k | | |
| ▲ | dlubarov 4 days ago | parent [-] | | As I understand it 41 is the number of starvations recorded in hospitals. 63k is a highly theoretical "estimate" based on the IPC scale and data from food insecurity in other parts of the world. It seems absurd on its face, since it would imply that an absurdly small fraction of starvations were recorded in hospitals. | | |
| ▲ | com 4 days ago | parent [-] | | I walked past the offices of Medcins Sans Frontiers (Doctors Without Borders) incidentally across the road from the very good new Holocaust Museum in Amsterdam, with posters in the windows imploring “no bombardment of hospitals in Gaza”. The numbers are absurdly small, if hospitals were still operational, their employees not subject to extrajudicial killing from the occupation authorities and the facilities themselves not subject to bombardment. Data from these killing fields is probably going to be far, far worse than we believe, once the dust has settled. | | |
| ▲ | dlubarov 4 days ago | parent [-] | | This doesn't stand up to scrutiny. The 63k "expected" starvations are spread out over a period beginning Nov 24, 2023 [1]. Over that period, something like 30k deaths have been recorded in hospitals and morgues. The 63k starvations claim would suggest that roughly 2/3 of all deaths were due to starvation, but somehow they were only ~0.1% of the cases that hospitals and morgues saw. So Gazans are something like ~500x more likely to enter a hospital or morgue for wounds (or other ailments) than for starvation? How do you explain that? [1] https://static1.squarespace.com/static/66e083452b3cbf4bbd719... | | |
| ▲ | freeone3000 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Due to the active bombing campaign against the civilian population, many Palestinians are wounded before they are starved. | | |
| ▲ | dlubarov 4 days ago | parent [-] | | About 2% of Gazans have died from the war (including militants etc), so that could maybe explain a 2% difference, like perhaps there was a 42nd person who was going to die of starvation but was bombed first. I don't see how it would explain more than that, and 42 is still quite far from 63k. |
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| ▲ | legulere 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Israel does take selected journalists into Gaza on trips organised by the military. The issue is that journalists cannot make themselves an independent picture of the situation in Gaza. | |
| ▲ | immibis 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The Gaza ministry that would have counted the deaths was also destroyed several months ago, which is why news media have been reporting the same death total of 40,000 for several months. | | |
| ▲ | yyyk 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | This is wrong. They are still reporting daily deaths counts, that counts have been going up. The Grauniad is good about collecting the reports (but bad about other unrelated things). | |
| ▲ | noman-land 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I was wondering about this. Thanks for the info. Got any links where I can read more? | | | |
| ▲ | throwaway_fjmr 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] |
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| ▲ | nailer 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | cma 5 days ago | parent [-] | | How do they enter now? An American journalist was jailed in Israel as well for a video showing the Iranian missiles struck near military targets and Mossad headquarters, where the official line was they were targeting civilians. | | |
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| ▲ | postepowanieadm 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
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| ▲ | zarzavat 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Given that the accused is currently in control of the crime scene, it's not surprising that the prosecution chose to prioritise the crimes that are easiest to prove. |
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| ▲ | culi 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | The ICC does not state only 41 deaths ocurred. GP is pulling that number from an unrelated Wikipedia article that is undergoing an edit war. It went from "63k" to "41+". None of the commentors here justifying the low number realize its completely made up and unrelated to the ICC | |
| ▲ | jowea 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Same reason an warrant on Putin was issued over the official children "adoption" program. | |
| ▲ | exe34 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | PoignardAzur 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Alternate explanation: the ICC isn't making up the charges and Israel did commit war crimes and conceal them. | |
| ▲ | bbqfog 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's the ICC accusing Israel of war crimes. | |
| ▲ | iwontberude 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That’s the whole point of the Geneva convention is that wars cannot be won by any means. | | |
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| ▲ | exe34 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
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| ▲ | ClumsyPilot 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You are literally 1 step away from claiming nazis did nothing wrong | | |
| ▲ | exe34 5 days ago | parent [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | ceejayoz 5 days ago | parent [-] | | > are you claiming the British soldiers should have been risking their lives delivering food to the doorstep of the Germans They did take precisely that risk to keep the civilian population of Europe from starving. https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/operation-man... > One of the key agreements was that certain corridors would be “open,” allowing Allied airmen to fly through, with the promise from the Germans that they would not be fired upon by AAA. This promise, and the fact that the planes would be flying at 400 feet or below (for the safety of the parcels) certainly gave much for the crewmen to be worried about. > Israel got the food to the ruling government in Gaza. Israel is killing every representative of that ruling government they can find in Gaza. (Which is good, but presents a severe logistical challenge for your claim.) | | |
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| ▲ | ImPostingOnHN 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Article 55 of the 4th Geneva convention (to which Israel agreed [0]) obliges occupying powers to provide civilians with food and medical supplies [1]. Note that this does not mean simply allowing food past a border checkpoint, but extends to ensuring that it reaches the civilians in need [2]. 0: https://treaties.un.org/Pages/showActionDetails.aspx?objid=0... 1: https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/art... 2: https://www.ft.com/content/40d70b23-a88f-4cab-a730-af2ae3acc... | | |
| ▲ | exe34 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Which article provides for the taking of civilian hostages and building terror tunnels under UN schools? | | |
| ▲ | ImPostingOnHN 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Fascinating question. Why ask me? The conventions are online for anybody to read, if they happen to be so inclined. | | |
| ▲ | exe34 3 days ago | parent [-] | | so they only found a dead guy to charge on the Palestine side - and you're telling me they're not just doing this for show? | | |
| ▲ | ImPostingOnHN 3 days ago | parent [-] | | If Israel wants a live terrorist to face ICC justice, why do they keep killing the candidates? Are you sure this isn't just indignity at being the subject of a warrant? | | |
| ▲ | exe34 2 days ago | parent [-] | | the political leaders in Qatar/Turkey could easily be invited to the Hague. | | |
| ▲ | ImPostingOnHN 2 days ago | parent [-] | | You've ignored 3/3 of my questions in a row so far, as well as the initial point you responded to, which is sufficient evidence you will continue to do so. Until you do, I don't see any reason to further engage in such a 1-sided conversation. Have a nice day! |
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| ▲ | exe34 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | iwontberude 5 days ago | parent [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | exe34 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Sinwar had the stolen passport of a UN employee on him. if his body couldn't have been identified, you would have been providing support for hamas claiming that Israel was shooting school teachers. You think I'm the troll? I don't disregard civilian lives - I want the war to be over asap. but ceasefire means both sides stop firing - not just the Jews. what I don't understand is why so many people in the west today desperately want to believe every lie told by hamas/hezbollah/Iran. do you also believe Israel fired on Italian UN soldiers in Lebanon? because it turns out it was hezbollah who fired on them. sealioning? is that projection? why do you ignore what i already wrote? > At the risk of getting killed by Hamas? I don't think Israel has enough control of Gaza yet for this to apply. | | |
| ▲ | iwontberude 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Why are we primed to see things "Irans" way (nice ad hominem btw)? This is because we see Israel as an illegal, criminal and genocidal state which has existed as a way for Europe to exile an ethnic group that they were too hateful to accept at home. Europe, not just Nazis, have been terribly antisemitic. The healthy response to exclusive ethnic enclaves in Europe was assimilation and creation of an inclusive and robust European identity. European ethnostates instead wielded xenophobia to create a fascist state to hold Jews hostage in a middle eastern ghetto and serve as a beachhead for the west's thirst for oil which was discovered mere months before the plan to resettle Israel. I think Israel threatens our politicians livelihoods in all senses of the word and in return gets universal support for both major parties. It's not obvious to you? |
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| ▲ | semitist 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] |
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| ▲ | 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | peppers-ghost 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| "confirmed" data from Gaza at the moment is unreliable. The people who were doing the counting have either been killed or cleansed from the area. The official death toll is still around 40k despite the reality being closer to 100-200k. |
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| ▲ | bawolff 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Regardless, total deaths don't matter, only deaths that were the result of crimes matter, in this context. Some of those deaths are going to be legal targets killed during combat, which is not evidence of a war crime. You have to split things out for the numbers to mean anything. | | |
| ▲ | xg15 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | But the problem is that Israel's style of warfare is (intentionally or not) blurring the distinction between those numbers, by using methods of combat that have exceptionally high rates of collateral damage. The most extreme instances of this are the deliberate withholding of aid, both in the "total siege" in the beginning of the war, as well as operations like now in the north. You might hit a lot of legitimate targets with this, but it's also guaranteed you will impact all the civilians in the area. Generally, in this entire war (and also long before), Israel is far too quick with the "Human shields"/"collateral damage" argument to my liking, and using it as an excuse to basically disregard considerations for civilians at all. (It's also instructive to see how different the hostages and palestinian civilians are treated in IDF considerations, despite both groups technically being "human shields") | | |
| ▲ | bawolff 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > But the problem is that Israel's style of warfare is (intentionally or not) blurring the distinction between those numbers, by using methods of combat that have exceptionally high rates of collateral damage. I'm not sure that is true. Urban combat is notoriously bloody, and other conflicts of this nature have seen similar orders of magnitude deaths. Additionally, civilian deaths are not neccesarily indicative of war crimes. Certain types of collateral damage are allowed where others are not (rules are complex and quite frankly oblivious), so you would also have to separate the legal collateral damage from the illegal collateral damage. > The most extreme instances of this are the deliberate withholding of aid, both in the "total siege" in the beginning of the war, as well as operations like now in the north. Well that allegation is the main basis for this warrant. However so far it seems like only a very small porportion of the deaths are attributable to that practise. To the point where so far the icc found that there wasnt enough evidence for a charge of extermination. I think about roughly 15 people have to die for it to be considered extermination. So it seems like so far there isn't evidence that a significant number of deaths in this conflict are related to that method of war. Of course new evidence can always come to light later. (Its important to note that siege warfare is still a warcrime even if nobody dies. The counter side is israel would probably try and argue (for the recent activity at least) that they gave civilians an opportunity to evacuate and thus it wasn't directed at civilians). | | |
| ▲ | bawolff 4 days ago | parent [-] | | > (rules are complex and quite frankly oblivious) Too late to edit, but i meant to say ambigious not obvlivious. |
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| ▲ | ignoramous 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > the problem is that Israel's style of warfare ... The most extreme instances Yep. The complication is, the Strip is close to being totally dependent on Israel, and yet chose war. I doubt any other country ruled by right-wingers, with that much power over their already (diplomatically, economically, socially) cornered enemy, would have acted any differently. I guess, the sequence of events reeks of desperation & despair from all sides and has ended up exposing one & all. | | |
| ▲ | xg15 5 days ago | parent [-] | | It's not as if life was particularly pleasant there before the war. Israel was already before restricting the maximally attainable quality of life. Or as if the Palestinian control group in the West Bank who had chosen cooperation was faring any better. Also that stuff is exactly what international humanitarian law is supposed to prevent. Obligations of the occupying power and all. | | |
| ▲ | ignoramous 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Agree. Like I said, this war has exposed facists, racists, hawks, hypocrites and their nexus (on every side). | | |
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| ▲ | babkayaga 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | |
| ▲ | edanm 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | runako 4 days ago | parent [-] | | You're describing conditions that occur in many asymmetric/guerilla wars. None of these are novel tactics whose acceptability must be evaluated from first principles now. Further, none of these should come as surprises to Israeli commanders, who will have seen these tactics from Hamas in the past. The bottom line is that any military can only control its own conduct as it represents its citizens in battle. | | |
| ▲ | dlubarov 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | [flagged] | |
| ▲ | edanm 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > You're describing conditions that occur in many asymmetric/guerilla wars. None of these are novel tactics whose acceptability must be evaluated from first principles now. Some of those conditions are similar, some aren't. In most cases, the group doing guerilla warfare isn't actively trying to get their own citizens killed, or if you want to be generous, simply doesn't care if they get killed or not. That said, you're partially right that these conditions have occurred before. That's why many military experts make comparisons to similar situations, like parts of the Iraq war or even closer, fighting against ISIS. In most of these analyses I've seen, they claim that the IDF performs as well as the US army did in similar situations in terms of protection of civilians, civilian to combatant killed ratios, etc. > Further, none of these should come as surprises to Israeli commanders, who will have seen these tactics from Hamas in the past. I don't think anyone is surprised by how Hamas is acting, except much of the international community who simply refuses to accept how Hamas is acting. > The bottom line is that any military can only control its own conduct as it represents its citizens in battle. Yes, but if there are legitimate military goals to achieve - and there certainly were legitimate goals to achieve in the beginning of the war - then the military has to fight the battle its enemy is giving it. There simply isn't a way to fight Hamas without inflicting civilian casualties, because of the way it fights. You can choose not to fight it at all, but that wasn't really a choice that was available to Israel on October 7th. (Whether the war should've continued for so long is a different matter.) |
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| ▲ | culi 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | The ICC doesn't claim 41 deaths were the result of war crimes. That claim is made by an irrelevant Wikipedia article that is undergoing an edit war. It was recently switched from "62,413 conservative estimate" to "41+" ICC doesn't claim how many deaths are due to war crimes. GP is purposefully sowing misinformation |
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| ▲ | culi 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | GP is not citing the ICC. The ICC never claims 41 deaths are confirmed. GP is citing a Wikipedia article which is undergoing an edit war. The Wikipedia page had cited 62,413 deaths and then was switched to a pro-Israel source that instead says "41+" ICC never claimed only 41 deaths were confirmed | | | |
| ▲ | kdhusakdjhsadkj 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [dead] | |
| ▲ | babkayaga 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | |
| ▲ | edanm 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | |
| ▲ | highcountess 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | nabla9 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | >unless something is documented in a very specific gate-keeper approved way Using strict process and critical methodology is the only want to approximate truth. > observable reality right before our own eyes. We don't observe reality correctly with our eyes. We (including you and me) are naked monkeys. Petty, vindictive, and biased. Palestinians and Israeli Jews are just like us but
live in a cesspool of religion, anger and violent history. | | |
| ▲ | ClumsyPilot 5 days ago | parent [-] | | > Using strict process and critical methodology is the only want to approximate truth So now a person in position of power has deliberately obstructed this process. Will you pretend that you have no data to act, or wake up and realise that you are dealing with a malicious entity and normal rules do not apppy? | | |
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| ▲ | lupire 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] |
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| ▲ | tuvocoical 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | nielsbot 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Pretty sure even Israel has said the Gaza health ministry’s numbers are usually correct. They have also been found to be generally correct in the past. Lastly the lower death count is the official health ministry number but the higher estimates are from others, e.g. The Lancet. | |
| ▲ | PoignardAzur 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This isn't a claim you can drop without some very convincing source. | | | |
| ▲ | ryuhhnn 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | source? | | |
| ▲ | tucnak 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misinformation_in_the_Israel%E... | | |
| ▲ | ryuhhnn 4 days ago | parent [-] | | > Abraham Wyner, a Pennsylvania professor of statistics, wrote in Tablet that the GHM casualty figures were "faked".[68] Wyner's article was analyzed by professor Joshua Loftus of the London School of Economics, who concluded Wyner's article was "one of the worst abuses of statistics I’ve ever seen". |
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| ▲ | tuvocoical 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | | | |
| ▲ | AzzieElbab 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Do you need one when that ministry reports casualties exactly to single digits within minutes of any incident? Like "567 killed in Israeli attack on Gaza hospital", just look down at your keyboard to see where that number came from. |
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| ▲ | adhamsalama 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | |
| ▲ | Qem 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | | | |
| ▲ | bbqfog 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | This is completely false. Gaza Health Ministry provides the most accurate data. You could also just go on X or TikTok and see dozens of Palestinians murdered by the IDF every single day. | | |
| ▲ | immibis 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | [flagged] | |
| ▲ | The5thElephant 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | |
| ▲ | neoromantique 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
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| ▲ | neoromantique 5 days ago | parent [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | mardifoufs 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Whataboutism. If you are comparing Israel to Russia then yes I think we agree. Not sure if that was what you had in mind though. Also, military objectives according to the IDF. Which has been caught lying multiple times and is as reliable as Russia or Hamas I guess | | |
| ▲ | neoromantique 5 days ago | parent [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | mardifoufs 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Is Israel defending itself when it creates settlements in land it doesn't own (and that even its allies do not consider to be Israel's) and publicly says that it will not stop doing it in the west bank? Or is that not aggression when Israel does it? | | |
| ▲ | neoromantique 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Hey, we’re in agreement regarding West Bank settlements, Gaza however —- hard no. | | |
| ▲ | mardifoufs 5 days ago | parent [-] | | They are one and the same. There's no separation for Palestinians, they are a single nation. And Israel has shown that the only way to stop settlements is through armed combat, which is why they have stopped settling in Gaza and done the opposite by institutionalizing colonization and settlement in the west bank the moment the west bank laid down the arms and stopped the armed resistance. They have also blockaded Gaza since before Hamas so again, that's an act of aggression by definition. You can't just blockade (to the point of attacking any ship trying to make it to gaza) another territory and claim that it is aggression when they attack you. | | |
| ▲ | neoromantique 5 days ago | parent [-] | | This comment is flat out a lie. Israel has withdrawn from Gaza, including forcefully ejecting Israeli settlers, as a show of good will for future lasting peace negotiations, however shortly afterwards Hamas was elected and seized control, hence the blockade since it is a massive security problem for Israel. Please educate yourself on the subject. | | |
| ▲ | mardifoufs 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Are you saying that Israel wasn't controlling the seaways of Gaza between 2005-2008? And yes that's my point. Gaza hasn't seen any more settlement since, because it has never stopped armed resistance. What has Israel done to the west bank when it stopped fighting and kicked out armed groups? Pushed for tens of thousands of settlements per year, in complete disregard of international law and with 0 consequences. Regardless, Israel was actually discussing resuming settlement even in Gaza before the October attacks, as Netanyahu's voter base adores settlement. And I'm not sure why you'd think that not settling in Gaza somehow makes up for the constant territorial theft in the west bank. Again, Palestinians see themselves as one nation. It's like saying that Russia only stole territory from the Donbass, not from west Ukraine so somehow that's a show of good faith lol | | |
| ▲ | neoromantique 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Comparison with Ukraine breaks down because Russia didn’t occupy west not because they don’t want to, but because they can’t, whereas with Israel and Gaza the power asymmetry is insane. And yes, Gaza and West Bank are separate entities with very different realities, both in terms of day to day life and political landscape. Israel listened to the worlds advice by retreating voluntarily(!) from Gaza, and in return has only received more criticism, of course that fuels resentment inside of Israel, rightfully so I must add. And since October 7th we can throw out all of that out of the window, past reality no longer applies and Israel is no longer letting cowardly UN dictate its demise, plain and simple. I don’t think West Bank settlements are a good idea, but I also don’t know a way out of it now, since everything that has been done in the past year is further prove to the Jews that they need Israel. I live in Europe, and I feel significantly less safe when traveling further west(thankfully we have negligible Muslim population here in Baltics). | | |
| ▲ | aguaviva 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | (thankfully we have negligible Muslim population here in Baltics) Thankfully we have a negligible number of people who think like you do, where I live. | | |
| ▲ | neoromantique 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Enjoy the consequences. Sorry, I value safety of the overall community more than whims of imaginary gods, be it Islam or otherwise. | | |
| ▲ | aguaviva 4 days ago | parent [-] | | We all get along just fine here, thank you. And the fact that throwback opinions like yours (on this matter) are broadly and deeply discouraged, I find quite enjoyable, also. |
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| ▲ | mardifoufs 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Regardless of what you are saying, Palestinians do not see themselves as separate entities. Saying otherwise does not make it less true >since October 7th we can throw out all of that out of the window, past reality no longer applies and Israel is no longer letting cowardly UN dictate its demise, plain and simple. Ha, that's funny because that's true but not for Israel. Israel has shown what it does to groups who try to stop fighting and engage in a dialogue(west bank militant groups). They get absolutely trashed, and have to watch as they see their land stolen by settlers and treated like vermin in the land they used to live in (because the settlers have complete IDF backing). That's why they won't make that mistake again, Israel has shown what it does to groups who stop fighting >I don’t think West Bank settlements are a good idea, but I also don’t know a way out of it now, since everything that has been done in the past year is further prove to the Jews that they need Israel. Extremely tired trope that is used to justify everything Israel does. The only issue with that is that Israel has had complete, full backing of every western nation materially, diplomatically, and strategically. On the other hand, Palestinians have had no real support from any country of importance, while their land has been slowly shrinking in full view because of Israel's illegal settlements. But yeah, it's truly Israel that's alone in the world lol. |
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| ▲ | GordonS 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
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| ▲ | sekai 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | zawaideh 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > Gaza Health Ministry is an unreliable source There is no reason to doubt their numbers other than Israel says so. All reputable sources have found their numbers to be historically accurate. | | |
| ▲ | grumple 5 days ago | parent [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | culi 5 days ago | parent [-] | | UN also confirmed that 70% of deaths are women and children. For comparison, it's estimated that about 6% of deaths in Ukraine are women and children | | |
| ▲ | dlubarov 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Civilians in Ukraine are normally evacuated to safer parts of Ukraine or other European countries. Unfortunately Gaza is tiny and no countries are accepting war refugees. | |
| ▲ | grumple 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
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| ▲ | ideashower 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | If foreign journalists could report from there we would have more reliable sources. | |
| ▲ | cr__ 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Why don’t we have reliable sources? | | |
| ▲ | azinman2 5 days ago | parent [-] | | [flagged] | | |
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| ▲ | pphysch 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | To be clear, which side are you referring to? | | |
| ▲ | azinman2 5 days ago | parent [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | pphysch 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Yeah, I've heard all those official talking points a thousand times. I've also seen Israeli officials openly dehumanizing and calling for the mass murder of Palestinians, and theft of their land. And I've seen the graphic results. There's an undeniable reality here and sadly it doesn't align with your official government talking points. | | |
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| ▲ | tuyguntn 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Gaza Health Ministry is an unreliable source, for obvious reasons. * Who is reliable source in this war? * How to obtain reliable information? Share exact steps and why is not currently done |
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| ▲ | bawolff 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Whats perhaps interesting to note is that this charge was made for "just" 41 [1] confirmed starvation deaths among a population of 2,141,643 people [2]. IANAL but this is probably incorrect i think - the starvation charge is related to allegations of intentionally restricting neccesities of life. Whether anyone dies as a result is irrelavent to that charge. The murder charge is for the people who actually allegedly died as a result (of the starvation that is. To be clear, the death has to illegal for it to be the war crime of murder. Normal combat death is not murder). |
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| ▲ | guipsp 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Researchers at the Watson Institute for International and Public Affairs at Brown University estimated deaths from starvation to be 62,413 between October 2023 and September 2024. |
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| ▲ | shkkmo 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > but in the context of the victim numbers that most past crimes against humanity have had, it sets a relatively low new bar. Which context is this? If you mean the context of past ICC indictments that isn't true. There are multiple other examples of people indicted for specific acts that resulted in the deaths of a 2 digit numbers of people. The bar for "war crimes" or "crimes against humanity" isn't the number of people you kill. Though in this case, plenty have been killed, this case is about what can be proved conclusively ebough given who it is against. |
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| ▲ | yyyk 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| We can compare the rate to countries in more.. stable situations[0]. They'll have a very difficult time getting anywhere with that rate. But we'll see. The world would be better off with all these individuals having no power at all. [0]
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/starvatio... |
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| ▲ | 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | megous 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Starvation vs starvation to death are different things. War crime of starvation was directed against 2.3 million people without distinction, incl. ~1 million children. I'd say that's bad enough. |
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| ▲ | culi 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This comment is just pure misinformation. Nobody is claiming only 41 deaths. You're citing an irrelevant Wikipedia page as a source that has a crazy edit history going back and forth between "41+" and "62,413 conservative estimated" deaths |
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| ▲ | croes 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| What’s the threshold for war crimes? |
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| ▲ | bawolff 5 days ago | parent [-] | | The crimes have a definition with requisite elements in the rome statue. While many of them do require a certain gravity, viewing international crimes like a more serious version of a normal crime is probably the wrong way of doing it. Some war crimes do not require anyone to die. In other cases thousands could die and it wouldn't be a war crime or crime against humanity because the elements aren't met. In particular, starvation doesn't require anyone to have died, and it covers more things than just food. Keep in mind its a relatively new crime in international law, it was only made illegal in 1977 (for example during ww2, the nuremburg trials explicitly ruled that sieges were legal). As far as i know nobody has ever been persecuted for it, so the case law doesn't exist, so its a bit unknown. |
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| ▲ | generationP 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | nick3443 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | Cyph0n 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | 1. Israel de facto controls the Rafah border. 2. Due to (1), and clear & consistent messaging by Israeli officials on Gaza resettlement as a goal, Egypt understands that “temporary” refugees will be unable to return - i.e., a repeat of 1948 and 1967. | | |
| ▲ | nick3443 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Both sides are using the border as a bargaining chip. Both sides are complicit. | | |
| ▲ | Voultapher 5 days ago | parent [-] | | I find it difficult to ignore the not so distant start to this current situation. Not even a hundred years ago foreigners showed up and said this is our place now. Now after decades of oppression, with both sides unhappy with the you get 5% of the land you used live on deal, the party with 95% of the land proposes a new deal, we get 100% of the land and you get uh .. to live somewhere else. As a comparison saying "Both native Americans and European settlers are complicit in the violence that occurred between them" is technically correct but hardly paints a representative picture. Personally I don't like the both did violence so both are wrong narrative. | | |
| ▲ | ixtli 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Yes. Also, the society that breeds this sort of narrative intentionally obfuscates the difference between oppressive and liberational violence. Even though the Palestinians employ violence no intellectually honest person can call the act the same as the violence perpetrated against them by the maintenance of an apartheid state. A lot of people on HN should read Fanon. | | |
| ▲ | Cyph0n 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Well put. It’s also quite ironic how the violent struggle for liberation is encouraged in the world of fiction - from Star Wars to Hunger Games - but is emphatically denounced as soon as it bleeds out into the real world. Funnily enough, I just finished reading The Wretched of the Earth :) |
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| ▲ | HappyPanacea 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I don't think Israel controlled the Rafah border in the start of the war which is when they made their declaration of not allowing aid. | | |
| ▲ | Hikikomori 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | They say that Israel didn't control it yet you couldn't go through it without their approval. | |
| ▲ | nick3443 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Correct. The first citation is from when Egypt and Palestinians controlled the border, the second is from later on when Israel controlled the Gaza side of the border. Egypt still controls the Egypt side of the border, regardless whether Israel or Palestine controls the Gaza side. |
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| ▲ | setgree 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | If the US, or any European country, started letting Palestinian refugees in en masse, a lot of them would manage to get there. Egypt’s culpability here is the most salient because they’re physically closest; but I don’t see how that makes the country uniquely culpable for failing to prevent a preventable situation. | | | |
| ▲ | uoaei 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I for one think it's good that countries don't constantly meddle in the domestic affairs of their neighbors. Yes this is cherry-picking but consciously so, to point out the absurdity of the premise. | | | |
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