| ▲ | peppers-ghost 5 days ago |
| "confirmed" data from Gaza at the moment is unreliable. The people who were doing the counting have either been killed or cleansed from the area. The official death toll is still around 40k despite the reality being closer to 100-200k. |
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| ▲ | bawolff 5 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| Regardless, total deaths don't matter, only deaths that were the result of crimes matter, in this context. Some of those deaths are going to be legal targets killed during combat, which is not evidence of a war crime. You have to split things out for the numbers to mean anything. |
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| ▲ | xg15 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | But the problem is that Israel's style of warfare is (intentionally or not) blurring the distinction between those numbers, by using methods of combat that have exceptionally high rates of collateral damage. The most extreme instances of this are the deliberate withholding of aid, both in the "total siege" in the beginning of the war, as well as operations like now in the north. You might hit a lot of legitimate targets with this, but it's also guaranteed you will impact all the civilians in the area. Generally, in this entire war (and also long before), Israel is far too quick with the "Human shields"/"collateral damage" argument to my liking, and using it as an excuse to basically disregard considerations for civilians at all. (It's also instructive to see how different the hostages and palestinian civilians are treated in IDF considerations, despite both groups technically being "human shields") | | |
| ▲ | bawolff 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > But the problem is that Israel's style of warfare is (intentionally or not) blurring the distinction between those numbers, by using methods of combat that have exceptionally high rates of collateral damage. I'm not sure that is true. Urban combat is notoriously bloody, and other conflicts of this nature have seen similar orders of magnitude deaths. Additionally, civilian deaths are not neccesarily indicative of war crimes. Certain types of collateral damage are allowed where others are not (rules are complex and quite frankly oblivious), so you would also have to separate the legal collateral damage from the illegal collateral damage. > The most extreme instances of this are the deliberate withholding of aid, both in the "total siege" in the beginning of the war, as well as operations like now in the north. Well that allegation is the main basis for this warrant. However so far it seems like only a very small porportion of the deaths are attributable to that practise. To the point where so far the icc found that there wasnt enough evidence for a charge of extermination. I think about roughly 15 people have to die for it to be considered extermination. So it seems like so far there isn't evidence that a significant number of deaths in this conflict are related to that method of war. Of course new evidence can always come to light later. (Its important to note that siege warfare is still a warcrime even if nobody dies. The counter side is israel would probably try and argue (for the recent activity at least) that they gave civilians an opportunity to evacuate and thus it wasn't directed at civilians). | | |
| ▲ | bawolff 4 days ago | parent [-] | | > (rules are complex and quite frankly oblivious) Too late to edit, but i meant to say ambigious not obvlivious. |
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| ▲ | ignoramous 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > the problem is that Israel's style of warfare ... The most extreme instances Yep. The complication is, the Strip is close to being totally dependent on Israel, and yet chose war. I doubt any other country ruled by right-wingers, with that much power over their already (diplomatically, economically, socially) cornered enemy, would have acted any differently. I guess, the sequence of events reeks of desperation & despair from all sides and has ended up exposing one & all. | | |
| ▲ | xg15 5 days ago | parent [-] | | It's not as if life was particularly pleasant there before the war. Israel was already before restricting the maximally attainable quality of life. Or as if the Palestinian control group in the West Bank who had chosen cooperation was faring any better. Also that stuff is exactly what international humanitarian law is supposed to prevent. Obligations of the occupying power and all. | | |
| ▲ | ignoramous 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Agree. Like I said, this war has exposed facists, racists, hawks, hypocrites and their nexus (on every side). | | |
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| ▲ | babkayaga 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | |
| ▲ | edanm 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | runako 4 days ago | parent [-] | | You're describing conditions that occur in many asymmetric/guerilla wars. None of these are novel tactics whose acceptability must be evaluated from first principles now. Further, none of these should come as surprises to Israeli commanders, who will have seen these tactics from Hamas in the past. The bottom line is that any military can only control its own conduct as it represents its citizens in battle. | | |
| ▲ | dlubarov 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | [flagged] | |
| ▲ | edanm 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > You're describing conditions that occur in many asymmetric/guerilla wars. None of these are novel tactics whose acceptability must be evaluated from first principles now. Some of those conditions are similar, some aren't. In most cases, the group doing guerilla warfare isn't actively trying to get their own citizens killed, or if you want to be generous, simply doesn't care if they get killed or not. That said, you're partially right that these conditions have occurred before. That's why many military experts make comparisons to similar situations, like parts of the Iraq war or even closer, fighting against ISIS. In most of these analyses I've seen, they claim that the IDF performs as well as the US army did in similar situations in terms of protection of civilians, civilian to combatant killed ratios, etc. > Further, none of these should come as surprises to Israeli commanders, who will have seen these tactics from Hamas in the past. I don't think anyone is surprised by how Hamas is acting, except much of the international community who simply refuses to accept how Hamas is acting. > The bottom line is that any military can only control its own conduct as it represents its citizens in battle. Yes, but if there are legitimate military goals to achieve - and there certainly were legitimate goals to achieve in the beginning of the war - then the military has to fight the battle its enemy is giving it. There simply isn't a way to fight Hamas without inflicting civilian casualties, because of the way it fights. You can choose not to fight it at all, but that wasn't really a choice that was available to Israel on October 7th. (Whether the war should've continued for so long is a different matter.) |
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| ▲ | culi 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | The ICC doesn't claim 41 deaths were the result of war crimes. That claim is made by an irrelevant Wikipedia article that is undergoing an edit war. It was recently switched from "62,413 conservative estimate" to "41+" ICC doesn't claim how many deaths are due to war crimes. GP is purposefully sowing misinformation |
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| ▲ | culi 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| GP is not citing the ICC. The ICC never claims 41 deaths are confirmed. GP is citing a Wikipedia article which is undergoing an edit war. The Wikipedia page had cited 62,413 deaths and then was switched to a pro-Israel source that instead says "41+" ICC never claimed only 41 deaths were confirmed |
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| ▲ | kdhusakdjhsadkj 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | babkayaga 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | highcountess 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | nabla9 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | >unless something is documented in a very specific gate-keeper approved way Using strict process and critical methodology is the only want to approximate truth. > observable reality right before our own eyes. We don't observe reality correctly with our eyes. We (including you and me) are naked monkeys. Petty, vindictive, and biased. Palestinians and Israeli Jews are just like us but
live in a cesspool of religion, anger and violent history. | | |
| ▲ | ClumsyPilot 5 days ago | parent [-] | | > Using strict process and critical methodology is the only want to approximate truth So now a person in position of power has deliberately obstructed this process. Will you pretend that you have no data to act, or wake up and realise that you are dealing with a malicious entity and normal rules do not apppy? | | |
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| ▲ | lupire 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] |
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| ▲ | tuvocoical 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | nielsbot 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Pretty sure even Israel has said the Gaza health ministry’s numbers are usually correct. They have also been found to be generally correct in the past. Lastly the lower death count is the official health ministry number but the higher estimates are from others, e.g. The Lancet. | |
| ▲ | PoignardAzur 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This isn't a claim you can drop without some very convincing source. | | | |
| ▲ | ryuhhnn 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | source? | | |
| ▲ | tucnak 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misinformation_in_the_Israel%E... | | |
| ▲ | ryuhhnn 4 days ago | parent [-] | | > Abraham Wyner, a Pennsylvania professor of statistics, wrote in Tablet that the GHM casualty figures were "faked".[68] Wyner's article was analyzed by professor Joshua Loftus of the London School of Economics, who concluded Wyner's article was "one of the worst abuses of statistics I’ve ever seen". |
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| ▲ | tuvocoical 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | | | |
| ▲ | AzzieElbab 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Do you need one when that ministry reports casualties exactly to single digits within minutes of any incident? Like "567 killed in Israeli attack on Gaza hospital", just look down at your keyboard to see where that number came from. |
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| ▲ | adhamsalama 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | |
| ▲ | Qem 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | | | |
| ▲ | bbqfog 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | This is completely false. Gaza Health Ministry provides the most accurate data. You could also just go on X or TikTok and see dozens of Palestinians murdered by the IDF every single day. | | |
| ▲ | immibis 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | [flagged] | |
| ▲ | The5thElephant 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | |
| ▲ | neoromantique 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | newspaper1 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | neoromantique 5 days ago | parent [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | mardifoufs 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Whataboutism. If you are comparing Israel to Russia then yes I think we agree. Not sure if that was what you had in mind though. Also, military objectives according to the IDF. Which has been caught lying multiple times and is as reliable as Russia or Hamas I guess | | |
| ▲ | neoromantique 5 days ago | parent [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | mardifoufs 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Is Israel defending itself when it creates settlements in land it doesn't own (and that even its allies do not consider to be Israel's) and publicly says that it will not stop doing it in the west bank? Or is that not aggression when Israel does it? | | |
| ▲ | neoromantique 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Hey, we’re in agreement regarding West Bank settlements, Gaza however —- hard no. | | |
| ▲ | mardifoufs 5 days ago | parent [-] | | They are one and the same. There's no separation for Palestinians, they are a single nation. And Israel has shown that the only way to stop settlements is through armed combat, which is why they have stopped settling in Gaza and done the opposite by institutionalizing colonization and settlement in the west bank the moment the west bank laid down the arms and stopped the armed resistance. They have also blockaded Gaza since before Hamas so again, that's an act of aggression by definition. You can't just blockade (to the point of attacking any ship trying to make it to gaza) another territory and claim that it is aggression when they attack you. | | |
| ▲ | neoromantique 5 days ago | parent [-] | | This comment is flat out a lie. Israel has withdrawn from Gaza, including forcefully ejecting Israeli settlers, as a show of good will for future lasting peace negotiations, however shortly afterwards Hamas was elected and seized control, hence the blockade since it is a massive security problem for Israel. Please educate yourself on the subject. | | |
| ▲ | mardifoufs 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Are you saying that Israel wasn't controlling the seaways of Gaza between 2005-2008? And yes that's my point. Gaza hasn't seen any more settlement since, because it has never stopped armed resistance. What has Israel done to the west bank when it stopped fighting and kicked out armed groups? Pushed for tens of thousands of settlements per year, in complete disregard of international law and with 0 consequences. Regardless, Israel was actually discussing resuming settlement even in Gaza before the October attacks, as Netanyahu's voter base adores settlement. And I'm not sure why you'd think that not settling in Gaza somehow makes up for the constant territorial theft in the west bank. Again, Palestinians see themselves as one nation. It's like saying that Russia only stole territory from the Donbass, not from west Ukraine so somehow that's a show of good faith lol | | |
| ▲ | neoromantique 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Comparison with Ukraine breaks down because Russia didn’t occupy west not because they don’t want to, but because they can’t, whereas with Israel and Gaza the power asymmetry is insane. And yes, Gaza and West Bank are separate entities with very different realities, both in terms of day to day life and political landscape. Israel listened to the worlds advice by retreating voluntarily(!) from Gaza, and in return has only received more criticism, of course that fuels resentment inside of Israel, rightfully so I must add. And since October 7th we can throw out all of that out of the window, past reality no longer applies and Israel is no longer letting cowardly UN dictate its demise, plain and simple. I don’t think West Bank settlements are a good idea, but I also don’t know a way out of it now, since everything that has been done in the past year is further prove to the Jews that they need Israel. I live in Europe, and I feel significantly less safe when traveling further west(thankfully we have negligible Muslim population here in Baltics). | | |
| ▲ | aguaviva 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | (thankfully we have negligible Muslim population here in Baltics) Thankfully we have a negligible number of people who think like you do, where I live. | | |
| ▲ | neoromantique 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Enjoy the consequences. Sorry, I value safety of the overall community more than whims of imaginary gods, be it Islam or otherwise. | | |
| ▲ | aguaviva 4 days ago | parent [-] | | We all get along just fine here, thank you. And the fact that throwback opinions like yours (on this matter) are broadly and deeply discouraged, I find quite enjoyable, also. |
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| ▲ | mardifoufs 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Regardless of what you are saying, Palestinians do not see themselves as separate entities. Saying otherwise does not make it less true >since October 7th we can throw out all of that out of the window, past reality no longer applies and Israel is no longer letting cowardly UN dictate its demise, plain and simple. Ha, that's funny because that's true but not for Israel. Israel has shown what it does to groups who try to stop fighting and engage in a dialogue(west bank militant groups). They get absolutely trashed, and have to watch as they see their land stolen by settlers and treated like vermin in the land they used to live in (because the settlers have complete IDF backing). That's why they won't make that mistake again, Israel has shown what it does to groups who stop fighting >I don’t think West Bank settlements are a good idea, but I also don’t know a way out of it now, since everything that has been done in the past year is further prove to the Jews that they need Israel. Extremely tired trope that is used to justify everything Israel does. The only issue with that is that Israel has had complete, full backing of every western nation materially, diplomatically, and strategically. On the other hand, Palestinians have had no real support from any country of importance, while their land has been slowly shrinking in full view because of Israel's illegal settlements. But yeah, it's truly Israel that's alone in the world lol. |
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| ▲ | GordonS 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
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| ▲ | sekai 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
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| ▲ | zawaideh 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > Gaza Health Ministry is an unreliable source There is no reason to doubt their numbers other than Israel says so. All reputable sources have found their numbers to be historically accurate. | | |
| ▲ | grumple 5 days ago | parent [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | culi 5 days ago | parent [-] | | UN also confirmed that 70% of deaths are women and children. For comparison, it's estimated that about 6% of deaths in Ukraine are women and children | | |
| ▲ | dlubarov 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Civilians in Ukraine are normally evacuated to safer parts of Ukraine or other European countries. Unfortunately Gaza is tiny and no countries are accepting war refugees. | |
| ▲ | grumple 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
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| ▲ | ideashower 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | If foreign journalists could report from there we would have more reliable sources. | |
| ▲ | cr__ 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Why don’t we have reliable sources? | | |
| ▲ | azinman2 5 days ago | parent [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | pphysch 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | To be clear, which side are you referring to? | | |
| ▲ | azinman2 5 days ago | parent [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | pphysch 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Yeah, I've heard all those official talking points a thousand times. I've also seen Israeli officials openly dehumanizing and calling for the mass murder of Palestinians, and theft of their land. And I've seen the graphic results. There's an undeniable reality here and sadly it doesn't align with your official government talking points. | | |
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| ▲ | tuyguntn 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Gaza Health Ministry is an unreliable source, for obvious reasons. * Who is reliable source in this war? * How to obtain reliable information? Share exact steps and why is not currently done |
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