| ▲ | rgbrenner 2 hours ago |
| Forget about the scores... look at the Cost Per Task. Fable 5.1 was already the most expensive by a good margin, and now Fable 5.2 doubles it! This is with the price cut. The output tokens per task just exploded. From 118k tokens (46k Answer/71k Reasoning) in 5.1 to 274k tokens (81k Answer/192k Reasoning) in 5.2. |
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| ▲ | Loquebantur an hour ago | parent | next [-] |
| They have maxed out the base data with the given model architecture and scale "intelligence" through inference-based RL. Notably, in order to achieve a specific quality, the model has to "reason" for every prompt proportional to the training inference. This is arguably the case of diminishing returns being reached, as answer token prices saturate the willingness of customers to pay. They've run into a wall. |
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| ▲ | sebzim4500 an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | There's a whole frontier of cost vs performance and this model pushes it out in a bunch of places, so its not just a matter of making a different tradeoff as you make it sound. | | |
| ▲ | Loquebantur an hour ago | parent [-] | | What you're looking at there is the cost/performance in inference. The "frontier". An economically successful step would be to improve training cost/frontier advance. They essentially failed at that, assuming they kept their training costs for the model step at least constant. | | |
| ▲ | rsalus 18 minutes ago | parent [-] | | isn't that what Opus is for? this is the "strongest" model, not the most economical |
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| ▲ | mattnewton 36 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Maybe a dumb question but once you have a model that spends a lot of tokens for high performance why can’t you distill it into a model that thinks less?
Sure it wouldn’t generalize well to new tasks but plenty of tasks are important and recurrent enough to justify this | | |
| ▲ | calebkaiser 4 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | There's a lot of research along this particular line, if you're interested! This is a dataset basically constructed by taking a bunch of DeepSeek R1 trajectories and filtering out the incredibly long rambling ones: https://huggingface.co/datasets/open-thoughts/OpenThoughts-1... There's also a bunch of RL research around strategies to coax the student model towards more concise trajectories. In general, a lot of people in industry are finding cost savings these days by tuning a smaller model over longer agent trajectories (not exactly the same as distilling the reasoning traces, since those aren't exposed by many frontier labs anymore) collected from their production agents. Typically works best when you have a pretty workflow-y agent whose tasks all share a similar shape. | |
| ▲ | jaggirs 7 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | They do this already. Have you noticed the stronger model tends to get released first and the weaker models soon after? | |
| ▲ | buckle8017 32 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | The reasoning/thinking is basically trying many many different branches. To do that you need a larger model to have many many branches to try. |
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| ▲ | mirekrusin an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There are tasks that people will easily pay hundreds or thousands of dollars per pop. And maybe that's how all of it is going to evolve in the future – so you pay per solution, not tokens? | | |
| ▲ | Loquebantur 42 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Diminishing returns would catch you there as well. Perhaps, it's a bit like being a super smart person in contemporary society: at some point, being smarter doesn't really reliably translate into a better life. When you learn from available human data, those text books max out at some point. You cannot learn what isn't there. |
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| ▲ | rowanG077 22 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | How do you explain Opus 5.5 or GPT 6.1? I could maybe agree if this is a general trend. But one "supermodel" existing that is really expensive does not signal diminishing returns. | |
| ▲ | lnenad an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That would be my layman's assumption as well. A theory is they're just releasing this as a stepping stone towards something bigger before the IPO. Either way it's the same way chinese models get higher scores on benchmarks. Drop enough of wait actuallys and you'll be top the charts, but time per task and tokens per task go up by a mile (as is the case with this release). | |
| ▲ | an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | suddenlybananas 44 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | This would be great for my sanity. |
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| ▲ | onlyrealcuzzo an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| If you compare Fable 5.2 Medium to Opus 5.5 high (settings that make sense - max is universally considered rarely worth it), you will see that Fable 5.2 is SUPPOSEDLY very cost competitive: https://artificialanalysis.ai/models/claude-fable-5-2?models... |
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| ▲ | goldenarm 32 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Fable 5.2 is much cheaper per successful task though. Fable 5.2 low is 3x cheaper than Fable 5.1 xhigh while being 8% smarter. https://artificialanalysis.ai/?releases=claude-fable-5-2%2Cc... |
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| ▲ | jonas21 6 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Yes, but that's running at max. Nobody is going to do that unless they want the best possible performance at all cost, in which case, they get what they asked for. Fable 5.2 at high scores a 62, which is better than anything on the market, except Fable 5.2 at xhigh and max -- and is about a third of the price per task. |
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| ▲ | dom96 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Depends highly on the task. It does pretty well on my benchmark[1] in terms of cost (and success rate). 1 - https://bench.killswitch-lang.org/ |
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| ▲ | nonadhocproblem an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| In case you're unaware, this is for the max setting. The (recommmended) high setting uses only 80k tokens. |
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| ▲ | lifeisloving an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Its still prohibitively expensive, and models 5% the cost are faster and get the job done just as well (for the average person's workflow). I really don't get the value proposition of these massive models, seems like they're just loss leaders simply to say you're the in the top 3. There's not much use cases outside of niche academic research (and even then I question the need). They mostly function as marketing tools, like a casino that offers high roller accommodations. People will say "cyber" but companies didnt want to spend on security before, not sure why they would all of a sudden be compelled to spend even more. | | |
| ▲ | svachalek 23 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Not everyone is writing CRUD business apps and personal use software. Pretty much any model can do those now. The frontier is for doing things those models struggle with. Even in vibe coding a simple video game the difference in results between an open source model, the previous frontier model, and the current model is pretty huge. Security is mandatory now in a way that it wasn't, now that AI has eliminated the skill barrier to hacking. | |
| ▲ | artemisart 20 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | People looking at frontier models release are not the average person, and let's say that you pay $150 with Fable to save $1000, it's much more interesting than using $10 with a cheap model to save even $500. Scale numbers to whatever suits you. | |
| ▲ | kolinko 23 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Well for tasks that can be done with another model you just use another model. |
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| ▲ | persedes an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | ^ and even at medium it is juuuust outside their "Most attractive quadrant" |
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| ▲ | iknownthing an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I'd rather a model be super expensive and cure cancer than not exist at all |
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| ▲ | platinumrad 37 minutes ago | parent [-] | | This would be a much more insightful comment if the model actually cured cancer. | | |
| ▲ | iknownthing 29 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Seriously though, does every model have to be affordable? Can't there be a model analogue of a rolex/ferrari? |
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| ▲ | nekoashide an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I think we will beat the cost with Hardware. Faster, more efficient hardware. From what I have seen we have only found ways to make it smarter and not more cost effective. I'm curious to see the next generation of dedicated AI processors and how they perform. |
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| ▲ | danuker an hour ago | parent [-] | | There are models offering great value on current hardware, like GLM-5.3-Flash and DeepSeek-v4.1-1017. Anthropic and OpenAI are expensive bleeding edge, but few use cases really need it. | | |
| ▲ | Bluestein 42 minutes ago | parent [-] | | At this point, they are beginning to approach the Tesla Roadster case. The flying one.- |
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| ▲ | airza an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It beats opus 5.5's max effort with less cost, which is a step forward if you don't want to crank it to Ultra Max Settings. The amount of compute it cost to get the best previous performance from anthropic went down. Nobody is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to go further down the paretto frontier if the current level of intelligence/task is acceptable to you. |
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| ▲ | raincole an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| https://artificialanalysis.ai/models/claude-fable-5-2-high Cheaper and faster than Opus(max) AND scored higher. But yeah let's doompost about it... |
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| ▲ | datadrivenangel an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The frontier chart there makes gemini carbon look really weird. Low is worse and more expensive than medium, and high is worse and more expensive than medium... funky curve like that implies a messed up model or weird benchmark. |
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| ▲ | johnnyApplePRNG 27 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| So it's basically the same model just with gargantuan reasoning enabled? Booooooooooo! |
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| ▲ | softboyled 20 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| "particularly expensive when comparing to other models of similar price" |
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| ▲ | xienze an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Well they do have an IPO coming up. |
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| ▲ | mordymoop an hour ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Most people never run out of plan usage, so the cost per task matters relatively little. |
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| ▲ | oh_no an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | 1. a lot of people do
2. most of their revenue comes from api pricing | | |
| ▲ | mordymoop an hour ago | parent [-] | | Those are both true, but I don't see how they are meant to rebut what I said. Most people on plan use do NOT use up all their plan usage. Users on API plans can still use Opus 5.5 which is a great model. If they want top of the line performance, they can pay more. When another company puts out a model that undercuts Fable 5.2 on price at similar performance, Anthropic will put out Opus 6 and undercut them right back. That's how the wheel turns. This is just part of the cycle. | | |
| ▲ | qeternity an hour ago | parent [-] | | It rebuts what you said because your statement that "the cost per task matters relatively little" is not true in the slightest. This might be true for a small portion of the user base, but it is not true as a statement of fact. |
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| ▲ | smoe an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Plan usage is available for companies with 2–150 seats. Above that, it's usage-based billing. | | |
| ▲ | Iolaum an hour ago | parent [-] | | Does that mean bigger companies can only get API pricing? | | |
| ▲ | smoe an hour ago | parent [-] | | That's my understanding, yes. But not sure what kind of deals the larger clients can negotiate. https://support.claude.com/en/articles/9266767-what-is-the-t... > Team plans support up to 150 seats. If your organization is on the Team plan and needs more than 150 seats, you can upgrade to the Enterprise plan. https://claude.com/pricing > Enterprise: Seat price + usage at API rates > US$20/seat/month, billed annually, 20 seat minimum. Usage cost scales with model and task. There is no premium seat option listed for the enterprise plan |
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| ▲ | kjuulh an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Most is doing the heavy lifting here. I am a power user. And I max 3 claude max subscriptions on opus 5.5 high and a single codex pro 5x for personal use. |
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