| ▲ | vlyan 2 hours ago |
| I can't help but recall the joyous cheers during the deplatforming era. "Freedom of speech doesn't apply to companies" is a particularly vivid memory. |
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| ▲ | jmull an hour ago | parent | next [-] |
| The article is not arguing that Facebook must support No Kings rallies. It's urging/educating people to rely on Facebook as little as possible, since it is not committed to being a neutral platform. If you support free speech, you should support facebook's right to express their own political views. But that does not mean you have to support facebook's political views, or the way they exercise them! When I see comments like this, I despair at how poorly people understand the basic concept of free speech. Hopefully you're just trolling. |
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| ▲ | streetfighter64 an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | > facebook's right to express their own political views Facebook is not a person. Facebook should not have "rights" nor "political views". The silly idea of treating companies like persons and giving them any "rights" at all is what got us into this mess in the first place. | |
| ▲ | yowayb 18 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] |
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| ▲ | Waterluvian 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I think I understand why people make this connection but I don't actually think there is one. Freedom of speech is possibly the #1 thing people get confused over, due to the similarities between "I don't like your speech" and "I want your speech to stop" and "I want the government to stop your speech." What I'm seeing is an argument for, "I don't like Facebook's speech. I think you shouldn't like it either. So I think we should all walk away." |
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| ▲ | howunfortunate 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | "Freedom of speech" is used as shorthand for both the general culture of open listening to disagreeable views, and for a series of laws related to the first amendment. 98% of the time people are talking about the former, and the only ones confused are the people assuming they're talking about the latter and linking the face-palm-worthy "showing them the door" XKCD. | | |
| ▲ | jimmydddd 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | There's also a blurring of private/public in certain instances. There were cases in the 1980's regarding free speech rights in a shopping mall. Privately owned, but a public space (defacto public square). | |
| ▲ | sodapopcan an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | > 98% of the time people are talking about the former I'd say damn near 100% of those 98% will still cite the constitution, sometimes even crying "1st amendment!" in lieu of "free speech," so I'd say your overall point is wrong. They are basically saying both at the same time, with intent, while still not understanding it. | | |
| ▲ | Joeboy 37 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | From an outside-the-US perspective, this is obviously not true. | |
| ▲ | howunfortunate an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Sure, some people are talking about the former but are genuinely mixed up about the latter. What do you feel would be the good-faith way to respond to such people? Surely it's not by sidetracking into pedantry about the law, which at the end of the day both they and you know that's not what they're really fired up about. | | |
| ▲ | sodapopcan an hour ago | parent [-] | | I think that any reasonable person who is just misinformed is going to understand, possibly after some time if they are the sort who find it hard to admit they are wrong. Otherwise, if they are going to try and claim that "No, constitutional 'free speech' means I can say whatever I want without consequence from ANYbody" then I don't think there is a good-faith way to argue that. |
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| ▲ | jvanderbot 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The meta-lesson here is "do unto others as they'll do unto you after next midterms". Suppression of misinformation during one era is suppression of protests in another era. You're right that the reality of the current day is what TFA is about - but GP is mentioning that we built this reality. | | |
| ▲ | Waterluvian 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Fair. The civil tolerance of speech we don’t like. | | |
| ▲ | aisenik an hour ago | parent [-] | | An informed and educated populace is essential to the function of any universal democracy. The regulation of capital is essential to maintain efficient markets. It follows that the regulation of capital with respect to communications is necessary to maintain democracy and efficient markets under a notionally capitalist system. There's clear moral valence to this issue. The popular (mis)understanding of freedom of speech as applied to corporations is in direct contradiction to the notional principles of western sociopolitical ideology. Resolving this conflict is only difficult because of our conditioning. |
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| ▲ | jimmydddd 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| That is true. I remember the second of the two inventors on the early mRNA patents had some concerns, and suddenly his interviews got taken down. And everyone seemed happy about it. The first inventor was all in, and had many interviews posted. |
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| ▲ | NotPractical 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| For example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18764523 |
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| ▲ | tshaddox an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It is not hypocritical or contradictory to believe that deplatforming is appropriate in some cases and not in others. |
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| ▲ | 28 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | streetfighter64 29 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yeah but what GP is commenting on is that you can't make the argument "deplatforming is okay because free speech doesn't apply to companies" and then complain about deplatforming in this instance. I agree with GP that the arguments one makes should reflect one's actual reasoning, e.g. "I believe it's wrong to say thing X and therefore I support deplatforming in that instace".
But because "I support deplatforming in every instace" sounds stronger many people falsely claimed that to be their reasoning.
And now they're forced to deal with the consequences, i.e. being called hypocrites. |
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| ▲ | triceratops an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Criticizing Facebook for taking down your content is also free speech. |
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| ▲ | pchristensen 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I think the main reaction (at least in tech circles) is that companies like Meta have the power, the legal protection, the political cover, and the indifference to shut down anyone on their platform. So making them the sole provider for your tech and communication is a huge risk. And this incident (negligent takedown of a community on an important day) demonstrates the point perfectly. |
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| ▲ | biophysboy 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| If only we had all had such principled foresight. Thank you for this great lesson. |
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| ▲ | AshleyGrant 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Conflating deplatforming hate speech and deplatforming people organizing a peaceful protest is certainly a choice. |
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| ▲ | 010ED67913 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | free speech and hate speech are the same thing. only platforming speech you agree with is, by definition, not free speech. | | |
| ▲ | AshleyGrant 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Standing US law disagrees with you. | | |
| ▲ | ecshafer 25 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Free speech doesn't come from the constitution, it's an inherent God given right. |
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| ▲ | goatlover 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Not everyone thinks we should be free to spread hate. Germany has good historical reasons to ban holocaust denial. Rawanda has good reasons to ban genocidal speech. No more going on the radio to say, "Cut down the tall trees". The reason to not platform hate speech is the same reason you're not allowed to yell fire in a theater or bomb in an airport without their being one. Or say you're going to kill the president. Even the US has limits on what can be said, including liability laws. You can't just defame your neighbor and not face legal repercussions if they take you to court. One can imagine this argument during the Salem Witch trials. "She's a witch" wasn't just a joke back then. It could get someone burned at the stake. | | |
| ▲ | an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | marknutter an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | The US has good historical reasons to ban the promotion of socialist/communist ideology, yet I don't think many people on the left would be down with that. |
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| ▲ | root_axis an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| You've erected a strawman. The argument was not "free speech doesn't apply to companies", it was the exact opposite, i.e. a company's prerogative to control speech on their platform comes downstream of their own free speech rights. This remains true today and the article does not argue otherwise. |
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| ▲ | streetfighter64 23 minutes ago | parent [-] | | No, the argument is definitely "you have no expectation of free speech if you're using e.g. facebook to deliver that speech". Which is certainly an opinion to have, but in my view a silly one. You might as well say that if you chose to send mail using a "private company", it's that's company's "free speech right" to inspect your mail and throw it away if they don't agree with the contents. |
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| ▲ | ThrowawayR2 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It is very delicious poetic justice. Some liberals warned repeatedly that deplatforming would backfire but were shouted down and ridiculed by illiberal activists hellbent on silencing their foes. |
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| ▲ | 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| [deleted] |
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| ▲ | alex1138 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The Taliban can tweet (pre-Musk) but Donald can't (I dislike Musk for many reasons but you cannot tell me there were 'no problems' with old Twitter or that every criticism was a 'nothingburger') |
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| ▲ | draw_down 30 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | RIMR 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I think there is still consistency between these two things. Freedom of speech doesn't mean that I have to tolerate a business platforming hate speech. Any platform that stands behind the "free speech" of neo-nazi groups, white supremacists, and violent nationalists deserves criticism for turning a blind eye to what they are enabling. The First Amendment wasn't built to protect citizens' speech from each other; it was built to protect us from government censorship. Facebook doesn't have a legal responsibility to protect that, and I as a consumer can expect them to take an ethical stand against things like ethnic cleansing. And that is exactly the point the author here is making. Facebook, X (Twitter), even places like Fediverse instances and Bluesky/AtProto sites are privately run spaces with no obligation to respect your freedom of speech. If you choose these spaces to organize your political cause, you put your movement into another person's hands. Stop doing that. Host your own infrastructure, make it easy to recover and migrate, and start organizing outside of corporate-controlled areas. Turning to Facebook for political organizing "because everyone is there" is like doing your town-hall meetings at Walmart "because everyone shops there", and then wondering why small businesses don't feel represented in your town anymore. It's easy to blame big tech, but you can also ask your local bar why they only advertise events through Mark Zuckerberg, and ask why their website is mostly just links to Mark Zuckerberg's websites. Ask them if they have considered that Mark Zuckerberg might not a good obligatory middleman between them and their customers. The core problem is that people have accepted the lie that these corporate-controlled spaces are "the public square", when they are the exact opposite. |
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| ▲ | NetMageSCW 41 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | You might as well be hosting your own infrastructure by posting a sign in your living room for all the reach you will have. If you want to talk to yourself you don’t need infrastructure. | |
| ▲ | gadders 32 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Labelling things "hate speech" is incompatible with free speech. |
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| ▲ | estearum 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I haven’t seen anyone complaining about “freedom of speech.” This is a complaint about corporate power. |
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| ▲ | lmz 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Yes, and they cheered when the power was aligned with them to deplatform the opposition. | | |
| ▲ | AshleyGrant 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | No. "They" cheered when it was used to deplatform hate speech. Deplatforming people organizing a peaceful protest is very different. If you cannot understand how that is different, then I worry about your critical thinking skills. | | |
| ▲ | vlyan 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | was peaceful dissent about certain policies of 2020-2022 also "hate speech"? because, if I recall correctly, it was being suppressed with unprecedented zeal on every single platform. again, with applause. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... | | |
| ▲ | estearum 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Medical disinformation during a pandemic? These conversations often end up in some weird motte and bailey where you argue that you care about free speech, but it turns out that you actually just thought COVID was not real/not significant/not dangerous/not an emergency. So your issue ends up not being that they made a decision on it (free speech concern), but that you feel it was the wrong decision (content-specific concern). So before we go back and forth on the intricacies of content moderation, can you briefly describe your beliefs on COVID? | | |
| ▲ | zeroonetwothree an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | I agree 100% with scientific consensus on covid but I also don’t support deplatforming based on viewpoint (vs content). | | | |
| ▲ | vlyan an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | and so the goalpost moves from "it's hate speech" to "it's whatever we unilaterally decide to be verbotten to speak about". | | |
| ▲ | estearum 36 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Well I wasn’t the one who said “it’s hate speech.” There are a number of things that get content-moderated. Hate speech, porn, bullying, doxxing, disinformation, Islamist propaganda, violent imagery, revenge porn, animal abuse imagery, incitements to violence, criminal planning, drug dealing, arms dealing, gambling, fraud, etc As a free speech maximalist, are you willing to defend all of those with the same vigor as the COVID case? Or do you too actually draw a content-based line somewhere (while pretending you don’t?) |
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| ▲ | adamrezich 19 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Both groups of people seem to harbor a lot of hatred, and they seem to want to express it a lot, so your distinction between what is and is not hate speech kind of seems to be based on whether you agree with it or not. If you find this interpretation to be uncharitable, would you care to clarify what truths this interpretation overlooks? | |
| ▲ | gadders 31 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Hunter Biden's laptop wasn't "hate speech". | | |
| ▲ | estearum 8 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I don’t know of any leftie people who were “cheering” about anything in any direction as it pertains to the laptop story. |
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| ▲ | Whoppertime 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Who decides if it is a peaceful protest? | | |
| ▲ | estearum 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Ultimately the platform, and yes there are huge grey areas. I don’t think this instance lands in one of them and that’s why Facebook isn’t even claiming it does. It seems like you’re trying to avoid dealing with the substance of the issue for some reason. | |
| ▲ | amanaplanacanal 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Usually local police if they are on the scene. If they start seeing violence, they start telling people to disperse, followed by tear gas and then rubber bullets. |
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| ▲ | krapp 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | They aren't trying to think critically, they're trying to ragebait and "own the libs." | |
| ▲ | marknutter an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Left wing speech is hate speech. Prove me wrong. | |
| ▲ | 49494959 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | estearum 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Do you have some specific examples that you find equivalently egregious to disrupting an organized protest? | | |
| ▲ | AcerbicZero 25 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Do you think disrupting an organized protest is inherently egregious? | | |
| ▲ | estearum 12 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I think that limiting “vanilla” political speech in general is inherently egregious. The boundaries around vanilla are certainly blurry, but I don’t think No Kings comes even remotely close to any of those blurry boundaries. |
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| ▲ | howunfortunate 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Personally I find censoring all links to the New York Post Hunter Biden laptop story a couple weeks before a presidential election to be much, much more egregious. (To be perfectly clear disrupting protests is also very bad!) | | |
| ▲ | estearum 32 minutes ago | parent [-] | | The story that even the New York Post didn’t list an author on, for fear of it being a false story? I agree this would be even more egregious if it was thought to be a real story, but even the tabloid that published it didn’t think so. Pretty sure the link suppression was turned off within like a day, right? | | |
| ▲ | howunfortunate 22 minutes ago | parent [-] | | What exactly is your argument here? That social media sites should prevent individuals from sharing content without an attributed author? | | |
| ▲ | estearum 16 minutes ago | parent [-] | | My argument is that the principle of election non-interference applied to this specific situation can reasonably yield “we should suppress sharing while we figure out what’s going on.” It was absolutely reasonable to suspect (in the early hours) that a salacious, bombshell story involving stolen documents published on NYPost without a listed author could potentially have been an actual disinformation attack. Under that set of facts, the “we should try to limit interference in the election” can reasonably yield the behavior that it did yield. | | |
| ▲ | howunfortunate 6 minutes ago | parent [-] | | That's an absurd and frankly offensive standard, and I fear that you already know that. The same standard could be used to trivially censor literally any information from any outlet. Conservatives could censor all NYTimes articles because they have compelling evidence the NYTimes newsroom is taking money from foreign sources (they are), has a history of releasing false information (they do, all news outlets eventually do), and being biased against conservatives. In fact, your standard would censor precisely the MOST important stories, because these are the most likely to influence elections. |
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| ▲ | yieldcrv 4 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | and nobody is arguing the reverse now that its not aligned with them they're saying to avoid the whole argument entirely by not using a platform that can deplatform at all | |
| ▲ | intended 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | This is bunk. Most people haven’t spent any time moderating online communities, so they don’t have to test their beliefs against reality. This is fine, frankly you saved yourself being stuck in a fractal hell scape. However holding to this idea that the “opposition” was deplatformed, is superstition. I’ve seen communities start with 0 moderation, and become wastelands filled with hate speech, misogyny and harassment. Which then forces moderation to be introduced. This happens so often, that this happened to the hate groups who were kicked off of Reddit. Communities have celebrated the introduction of moderation, and celebrated the imposition of rules that mean you can’t be harassed, attacked and targeted. |
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| ▲ | pokstad 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Then organize the old fashion way people did before social media was a thing. Otherwise, accept the convenience of social media has strings attached. | | |
| ▲ | yulker 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | part of the challenge is that like the car, social media has reorganized societal "infrastructure" itself, such that just a reflexive "the old fashion way" leans on a social organization that doesn't exist anymore | | |
| ▲ | pokstad 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I don’t buy that. The old way still exists, it’s just way less convenient. It reminds me of punk rock bands that self published and followed the DIY approach versus bands that sold out the record label approach. It’s hard to DIY but you can do it if you really want to. | | |
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| ▲ | estearum 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Sure? That’s what the article is arguing for. |
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| ▲ | GolfPopper 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Which is one of many reasons why social media, along with the internet in general, ought to be treated as a public utility rather than a private for-profit business. |