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▲ A statement on the Tor Project's relationship with Mullvad(blog.torproject.org)
58 points by runtimewire 5 hours ago | 74 comments
▲palmotea 26 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

> Recent concerns about a political donation by a Mullvad co-founder have raised questions about the Tor Project's funding relationship with the company.

It's kind of obnoxious that they assume everyone already knows the details of whatever controversy this is, and don't even provide a link to any explanation.

So what's the controversy?

▲wyager 25 minutes ago | parent [-]

Mullvad co-founder donated money to a Swedish political party that wants to limit African immigration to Sweden

▲dumberquestions 13 minutes ago | parent [-]

The most controversial aspect is plans to deport immigrants deemed insufficiently assimilated/productive, even if they have acquired citizenship, I think your description understates that a little.

▲abletonlive 5 minutes ago | parent [-]

What isn't controversial in 2026? I guess people are running around with the premise that denaturalizing and deporting is something that can't be considered in any situation but you can do this with just about any topic.

▲CursedSilicon a minute ago | parent [-]

"And remember: Service Guarantees Citizenship!" [1]

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jO1vWxUqpFI

▲s1n_ 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They clearly just need the funding, which is few and far between on tools like this and they aren’t in a position to be able to take a moral stance. Can’t say I blame them too much other than the co-branding idea.

▲petcat 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Tor itself was invented by the US Naval Research Lab and still today is funded >50% by the US Department of Defense.

▲hypfer 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Content aside, is there anything or anyone forcing Foss projects to pick up this voice?

I understand that TOR is big and professional and all, but why does this read like a press statement of every tech corp under the sun? Do we have to talk like this?

▲githubnuoo 3 hours ago | parent [-]

if you don't, some will say "you are not treating this seriously, it's not a joke, humans life's are at stake and you can't even bother writing a professional response"

▲carlosjobim 21 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

> some will say

And whatever you do to please these "some", they will never be satisfied and just jump on to the next hate bandwagon the moment you give in to their demands. You never benefit from listening to these online activists, who already hate you and already don't use your product. Even more so when it's a non-profit product.

▲hypfer 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Yes, but, does that someone matter? Do they still have leverage to be of any concern?

Because.. looking at the whole.. uh.. stuff going on in US politics, I'm kinda doubtful. There are a lot of real and big problems going on right now that far outweigh choice of specific tone and words I'd say.

I mean. Their choice and all, but it comes with the trade-off of being massively alienating, and I'd argue that the cost benefit calculation of that might have to be redone, taking the current state of the world into account.

▲Toynbeeidea 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

If that "somebody" is some manner of congresscritter, then yes.

▲hypfer 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Yeah but that government body is currently doing this sanctioning the ICC thing and also thinking about public execution livestreams, so.. uh.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50021066

So.. idk? I think they might not care that much? In fact, they might like the people the Tor project is (rightfully (if done genuinely)) (pretending to) distance themselves from.

▲githubnuoo 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

the existence of this blog post is proof that it matters for them, people/orgs receive emails accusing them every day, and most of the time they dont bother answering

▲bflesch 31 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Why is Mullvad making so much money and other VPN providers are seemingly not?

▲nicce 24 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

If anyone recommends VPN, it is usually the one. Others have greater chance to be scam or selling your data.

▲ByThyGrace 2 minutes ago | parent [-]

Does that include Proton's VPN?

▲wyager 28 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Because they have a very strong track record of good performance, reliability, and defense of privacy. VPN businesses largely sell trust and Mullvad has earned a lot of it

▲raverbashing 29 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Are they? I can only imagine MordVpn makes a lot of money

▲ekjhgkejhgk 18 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Ooof I don't want these two to break up.

Mullvad browser is my favorite browser, and it's tor browser minus connection to tor.

▲Onavo 35 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> While Tor defends free speech, not all speech is equally compatible with our mission.

It's sad to see the backslide. In the olden days free speech absolutists would defend all speech short of fires in the cinema. Nowadays it has to be compatible with their brand of political correctness else they will tar and brush you.

You see the same backsliding in the Electronic Frontier Foundation and other non profits. They are a lot more neoliberal now than liberal. Interests over values.

▲fasterik 25 minutes ago | parent [-]

Free speech absolutists can still have opinions, criticize others, and choose who to associate with. They're not advocating for censorship or legal penalties for speech.

▲simoncion 6 minutes ago | parent [-]

Yep. "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." and similar such sentiments.

One can publicly declare a speaker to be a wrongheaded pig that all decent people should ignore, but that's a wholly different thing from ensuring that said pig is unable to utter its wrongheaded ideas in public.

▲wyager 29 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> While Tor defends free speech, not all speech is equally compatible with our mission.

If Tor hems and haws about political speech, they 100% lose any rhetorical cover against (fallacious but politically compelling) arguments like "so you're OK with CP, but you draw the line at Swedes being against African immigration?" (which is the political issue in question re. Mullvad)

▲fasterik 12 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

It's a false equivalence. If I design a censorship-resistant network, it doesn't imply that I endorse everything flowing through that network. And just because I'm in favor of free speech doesn't mean I can't criticize the speech of others as a private citizen or organization.

▲petcat 23 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

If we look at the origins and funding of the Tor network, it's pretty clear that CSAM is not the priority, although it is a priority. But mostly it's about preventing terror groups like ISIS from freely organizing massacres in France, Germany and maybe even the United States.

▲blakeashleyjr 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

All speech is equal, but some speech is more equal than others.

▲jorams 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Not sure what this is supposed to say; free speech != equal speech.

▲iAMkenough 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

If all speech were truly equal, calling for the death of all black people is speech that is equal to calling Israel’s action in Gaza a genocide.

▲blakeashleyjr 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I am not saying the content of the speech is morally equal, but Tor's explicit mission is to make people anonymous and protect speech. The moment you start inspecting it, Tor's mission is negated.

Of course, Tor's partnerships are different than the content distributed through it's network, but I still find it a bit ironic.

▲fatbird 27 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

They're not talking about inspecting or controlling speech on the network, they're talking about speech outside their network and how it relates to them and their relationship with Mullvad.

▲text0404 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> We are not terminating the relationship but are setting clear boundaries on our relationship with Mullvad

> We strongly oppose rhetoric that threatens other human rights and freedoms.

▲blackkk 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It’s not equal. It’s more equal.

▲akimbostrawman 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

expected virtue signaling but at least they aren't stupid enough cut relationships completely.

▲ranger_danger 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There's really no end to this game of altruism olympics people seem to want to play.

It may very well be that one group continuing to do business with another group is still more beneficial to their mission than cutting all ties, even if they disagree with the positions/actions of the other group. FOSS projects lately are tearing each other apart based on who is politically "better" than the rest in their eyes. The level of hypocritical hate coming from groups that claim to be tolerant is truly wild.

And we see this in geopolitics constantly as well. Remember that almost nobody cuts off contact with an entire country in perpetuity, and for good reason. Try to think of game theory and how well tit-for-tat actually works out in most aspects of society... I think cutting off all contact usually isn't the smartest solution in most situations.

Who are we to say what's morally "right" enough in every situation, especially given all kinds of other information we are not privy to? We don't know what we don't know, yet people act like they have all the answers and that only their opinion can be the right one... even in this (and every) thread we see this play out over and over with people getting royally butthurt over simple misunderstandings of subjective terminology.

There's an endless amount of scenarios we could argue...

- Why does anyone still negotiate with person/company/country XYZ after everything they've done?

- Where does one draw the line and who gets to say where that is?

- Why do people insist on calling things "fascist" that are more of a misunderstanding or difference in opinion vs much more serious authoritarian actions or aspirations?

- Why are so many people who otherwise seem quite smart, have such narrow-minded black-and-white opinions with zero interest in the possibility that they might be misinformed? How does that make any scientific sense?

Why can't we just be nicer to one another and realize that true intelligence requires both humility and empathy? When we don't take the time to try to truly understand each other's intentions, that leads to people not talking. And when people stop talking, that's when the fighting (in any sense of the word) starts.

▲lejalv 21 minutes ago | parent [-]

Listen, I've been enough time on this Earth to know what is behind immigrant demonization, and it's not a particularly dark instinct. It's a well orchestrated distraction maneuver to have the lower classes find somebody to blame that is not the brutal increase in accomodation prices, that leads, de facto, to wage-slavery for big chunks of the population.

So no misunderstanding, millionaires gotta have the poor white Swedes blame the poor brown Swedes. True intelligence requires analysis of the power relations. The Mullvad boss can do without my money, and possibly I can spare my empathy for the next immigrant that will be beaten, burned or sent back to a war-torn country or a climate-change disaster zone.

▲JohnTHaller 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The Tor statement doesn't mention the actual donation or party. Daniel Berntsson the co-owner of Mullvad, donated approximately US$500,000 to the far-right Örebro Party in Sweden. It's an ethno-nationalist party that is pushing for "remigration". From Wikipedia: "Remigration is a far-right concept referring to the ethnic cleansing via mass deportation of non-white minority populations, especially immigrants and sometimes including native-born citizens, to their place of racial ancestry."

▲Hitton 13 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Despite your implication how is Oreboro Party far-right, wikipedia actually states they are:

characterized as left-wing, right-wing, populist, nationalist, and conservative

and:

Ideology: Populism, Swedish nationalism, Left-conservatism, Anti-corruption, Anti-establishment, Anti-immigration

Political position: Syncretic

So basically everyone can (dis)like it for some reason...

▲cubefox 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Wikipedia is heavily biased far-left on this topic. Their logic: taking in migrants is not far-left, but sending them back is far-right. That's called political bias. Of course they don't mention their huge crime rate.

▲raverbashing 27 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's ok, everything Wikipedia doesn't like it calls a "far-right conspiracy theory"

Like the issue of the grooming gangs in the UK

▲bstsb 21 minutes ago | parent [-]

remind me which race makes up 81% of prisoners convicted of a sexual offence in the UK?

remind me what the home office said about which ethnicity “group-based child sexual exploitation offenders” are most commonly?

▲jeltz 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Örebro Party is also pro-surveillance.

▲mmooss 4 hours ago | parent [-]

That seems pretty significant. Could you provide some more detail or evidence?

▲0xy 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Every single country on earth participates in remigration, it is not ethnic cleansing by any stretch, given the amount of white people being deported from the US, Europe and other places all the time.

Europe has this absurdist political compass that calls any anti-immigration party "far-right", even when their official party platform is center-left or far-left in every single other respect (like Örebro's current platform of substantial expansions of social welfare program funding). Same is true in France, where you have a party with far-left socialist economics and anti-immigration sentiment that is bucketed as "far-right".

▲wnoise 12 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Every country does deportation. "Remigration" is a neo-Nazi term that is explicitly a call for removal not by immigration status, but by ethnicity.

We know what ethnic-cleansing looks like, and the horrors it both requires to do and eventually causes.

"Government goodies, but just for people like us" is very much compatible with far-right governance.

▲0xy 4 minutes ago | parent [-]

I'm confused. Can you point me to the specific policy of this party, or other mainstream "far-right" parties who have a remigration policy that specifically excludes the deportation of white people who were not born there?

ICE has deported thousands of white people under the current administration, for instance. Their removal operations are indiscriminate, not racial. Several white people (some from Canada, some from the UK, some from Ireland) have made headline news after getting picked up by ICE ERO.

▲BeetleB 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The US is not close to doing anything similar to what that party is calling for (e.g. advocating for deporting those born in Sweden).

▲paimapi 39 minutes ago | parent [-]

We're closer than most people would like - https://theconversation.com/after-supreme-court-setback-trum... - see also https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/house-bill/569 and https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/house-bill/9633...

That said, it isn't something nearly as drastic or categorical as these far-right, ultranationalist EU parties.

▲firefax 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>Daniel Berntsson the co-owner of Mullvad, donated approximately US$500,000 to the far-right Örebro Party in Sweden

Thank you for naming the party donated to.

It's a shame that refusing to consort with fascists is conflated with "being political".

One of the reasons I left so called "civil" society is that for lack of a better phrasing I often found the tent to be too big.

▲MC995 4 hours ago | parent [-]

> It's a shame that refusing to consort with fascists is conflated with "being political".

It's because they are a political party, and he was donating to it. There's no better definition of being punished for a political opinion than being punished to donating to a legitimate party.

And their not "fascists", it's a Swedish nationalist party. Naming everything you don't like as "fascist" is a quick way to have your opinion dismissed as crazy.

▲firefax an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> There's no better definition of being punished for a political opinion than being punished to donating to a legitimate party.

Maybe being punished for some political opinions isn't a bad thing, if your political opinion is "some people don't deserve human rights" :-)

▲wyager 27 minutes ago | parent [-]

Is it a human right to live in Sweden?

▲deadbunny 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

How is he being "punished"?

▲lejalv 27 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Not giving my money so that it flows to an antiimmigrant party, having myself been an immigrant, is rather different from punishing.

Only rich tech bros have this absurd situation where they are "punished" by a political opinion, because only they can meaningfully sway "one person, one vote" with their money.

Are we talking about the political opinion of toilet cleaners who don't have the money to donate, or the energy, or the podcasts to express it? No. That's not an opinion that can be punished, it's just a non-event for many here.

So let me not shed a tear for the political opinions of the Mullvad boss.

▲BAM-DevCrew 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The Swedish party in question seems to hold a position on immigrants that is fascist due to their hostility towards immigrants. While holding a fascist opinion is allowed free speech in a democratic society. Speech that incites violence or hatred is not - generally. And TOR as well as most other civil and decent human beings have every right and perhaps obligation to opine that fascists suck and can f-off.

▲iamnothere 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

They are not fascists, they are somewhere between “right-socialists” and left-populists, seemingly very close to Titoism. There is a substantial difference. Fascism calls for fusion of corporations and state and I haven’t seen that from them. They have called for socialization of energy, but that’s common among many left parties.

I am sick to death of the overapplication of the word “fascism”. It doesn’t mean “bad thing”. Distinct words are needed for distinct concepts, otherwise all political discourse ends up like here in America where you have “liberals” who are not actually liberal and “conservatives” who don’t want to conserve anything.

Edit: edited to reflect that they are probably a lot closer to Tito than Hoxha or Juche, after thinking about it.

▲firefax an hour ago | parent [-]

>I am sick to death of the overapplication of the word “fascism”. It doesn’t mean “bad thing”.

So you admit they are a "bad thing", but you are annoyed I used the wrong word?

▲mjburgess 28 minutes ago | parent [-]

The annoyance is that your personal judgement of "bad" is being wrapped up in emotional escalating language which equivocates, "I dont like this policy on immigration" with the history of genocide and total war in europe.

▲StanislavPetrov 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>The Swedish party in question seems to hold a position on immigrants that is fascist due to their hostility towards immigrants.

Advocating for controlling borders and opposing immigration is a legitimate political position, whether you agree with it or not. Those who describe everything they disagree with as 'fascism' are not credible people.

▲lejalv 25 minutes ago | parent [-]

You're transforming "remigration" into "controlling borders" and "opposing immigration".

But I agree the F word frequently doesn't advance political discussion.

▲Yokolos 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Every time I'm appalled and both surprised and not surprised to see yet another rich CEO or founder be a genuinely awful person supporting causes that hurt people in some way. I guess it's just a prerequisite for the job? Are there CEOs and founders who aren't awful?

▲edoceo 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Yep, you don't hear about them because what would they announce? Day 10000 of being not-an-asshole?

▲ASalazarMX 3 hours ago | parent [-]

27 years of being not-an-asshole would be a great achievement to brag about.

▲akimbostrawman 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

yeah truly awful CEO. he should advocate for the unregulated flood of foreigners used to replace locals and be exploited as cheap labor like our benevolent and progressive silicon valley idols!

▲analognoise 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Our system rewards people who, in a natural state of affairs, we'd beat to death.

▲carlosjobim 18 minutes ago | parent [-]

That sounds like you are threatening a named individual with deadly political violence. Your comment cannot be interpreted in any other way.

▲mycofunguy 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"The Tor Project’s mission is to advance human rights and freedoms." - I might be completely barking up the wrong tree here, but I thought the TOR mission was to allow spies to access the network and hide among all the other non-spy users.

It was and still is funded mostly by the US Naval Research Laboratory. And considering most of the nodes are hosted on American cloud infra, if those companies share with the US Govt in real-time what is connecting in and out then the entire chain can be figured out much of the time without any kind of timing attacks. The regular person using it doesn't get as much of the privacy benefits, but the charade is making it seem like they do.

I know lots of people really believe in TOR - fair play to them. I just know it in my bones it's not as it seems.

▲decasteve 26 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

From what I recall, talking to one of the Tor founders about this, Tor was created with overseas US military personnel in mind. E.g. A soldier’s location could be compromised through foreign ISPs if they accessed sites like .mil domains directly. Tor was a way of preventing this problem. There were other use cases but this one stood out for me and it was one of the initial ones considered.

▲smalltorch 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Meh, and yet anyone can run a relay or onion service in a few clicks.

It's the best tool regular people have for privacy without a doubt.

>The regular person using it doesn't get as much of the privacy benefits, but the charade is making it seem like they do.

Just false.

If your model is simply to avoid corporate surveillance and tracking its a fantastic defense.

If your trying to go up against nation states, it never claimed to protect you from that.

▲mycofunguy 2 hours ago | parent [-]

'Meh, and yet anyone can run a relay or onion service in a few clicks.' - of course.

'Just false.'

It depends where you are from. The US constitution is supposed to prevent spying on American citizens, but anyone outside of the USA is fair game. Most of the global population is not in the USA (like me).

'If your model is simply to avoid corporate surveillance and tracking its a fantastic defense.' - I host an onion service exactly for that reason, not for my own privacy but to let customers have that with us if they want.

'If your trying to go up against nation states, it never claimed to protect you from that.' - I disagree, it will protect an American spy a treat.

▲ranger_danger 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> I thought the TOR mission was to allow spies to access the network and hide among all the other non-spy users.

Both things can be true... the original need for the network necessitated the mission of the foundation itself... you can't have a global network that only spies use, or you're not blending in, so you have to make it about a public good that many civilians will also use.

Other systems like I2P, SimpleX, Tribler, Datura etc. take additional steps to mitigate such kinds of Sybil attacks that people talk about against Tor, and new methods are being worked on all the time.

Splitting up your traffic across multiple nodes/circuits/etc. as well as persistent dummy/decoy traffic are some methods I've seen discussed recently.

> if those companies share with the US Govt in real-time

IMO This is a colossal "if" and not something we can realistically determine besides saying "we know it happens sometimes, but certainly not all or even most of the time."

Everyone's threat model is different, and hiding from state-level actors is generally 1. much too complicated to succeed at, and 2. you're probably not that special in the first place that you'd actually be targeted. The privacy community is bursting at the seams with all manner of tinfoil-hat wearers and wild conspiracy theorists that think some dark boogeyman is out to get them.

I'd also like to see a source that proves "most of the nodes are hosted on American cloud infra."

▲mycofunguy 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I'd also like to see a source that proves "most of the nodes are hosted on American cloud infra."

I will make a correction. What I should have said is that out of the top 10 networks hosting relays or exit nodes, that close to half have an American presence and that the vast majority 80-90% of relays and exit nodes are spread out within 14 eyes countries - you can see it yourself when you look at the network. When was the last time you looked at where it was connected to and did not see a flag within either 5 eyes, 9 eyes or 14 eyes countries? While that maybe isn't the proof you want, it sure is a meaty coincidence and another reason on top of who funds it and what its purpose is for.

▲Onavo 33 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

How secure is SimpleX? I saw a lot of tinfoil hat people on Reddit claiming that it's the next coming of Signal.

▲1294976 16 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

The NSA and the Swedish Secret Service let the Tor and Mullvad developers know that a sternly worded letter would be preferred over severing all relations. They need their honeypots to cooperate!