| ▲ | esalman an hour ago |
| Here are the rough requirements for said newspaper ad according to DOL: • The job must be advertised in the print edition of two different Sunday newspapers. • The newspaper must be widely distributed in the area where the job is located. • Both ads must run between 30 and 180 days before you file the PERM application. • The advertisement must clearly state the name of the employer. • The ad must outline the job duties, requirements, and the work location. • Listing the wage is optional, but if included, it cannot be below the official prevailing wage. • Employers must keep the full-page newspaper tearsheets for 5 years in case of an audit. It doesn't say anywhere that it cannot be advertised in a small town. |
|
| ▲ | pandaman 14 minutes ago | parent | next [-] |
| >It doesn't say anywhere that it cannot be advertised in a small town. It does say in the law [1]: "there are not sufficient workers who are able, willing, qualified (or equally qualified in the case of an alien described in clause (ii)) and available at the time of application for a visa and admission to the United States and at the place where the alien is to perform such skilled or unskilled labor". The rules of DOL are just guidelines how they are going to determine this but they are not the law. I will argue that if you are planning to publish your job ads in a small town newspaper you do not believe yourself that there are no "able, willing, qualified and available" Americans for your job. 1. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1182 |
| |
|
| ▲ | mbreese an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It also doesn't say that the paper needs to be widely read, just circulated, right? I mean, why pay for a job ad in the SF Chronicle when you can put a cheap ad in the (now defunct?) SF Weekly free paper? When it was still around, SF Weekly would have met the threshold for being widely distributed... Why pay to reach many thousands of people with a widely read paper when you can pay pennies to reach dozens of people that you don't want to apply to the job anyway? This is an entire business model. |
| |
| ▲ | reilly3000 36 minutes ago | parent [-] | | “But the plans were on display…” “On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.” “That’s the display department.” “With a flashlight.” “Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.” “So had the stairs.” “But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?” “Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard. Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy |
|
|
| ▲ | mikeocool 12 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Some of these requirements are so ridiculous that they create the need for everyone to do what Vance is accusing Microsoft of. Many companies fulfill the intent of the law. They run a real hiring process — where they advertise online and interview people with work authorization/citizens and people who would require sponsorship. But if someone requiring sponsorship was the best candidate for the job, then they have to run an additional “fake” process that fulfills these requirements, since no one actually hires tech workers from the newspaper. |
| |
| ▲ | smallmancontrov a minute ago | parent [-] | | > requirements are so ridiculous that they create the need It's the other way around. The "need" creates the ridiculous requirements because companies get the laws they want, and the laws they want give them an excuse to do what they want to do. |
|
|
| ▲ | Karliss an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > The newspaper must be widely distributed in the area where the job is located. Based on that I would expect that if you advertise in small town newspaper, the job needs to be located in that small town. Want them to work in your big office next to big city, then it must be a newspaper widely distributed in that city not a small town on the opposite side of continent. |
| |
| ▲ | mkatx an hour ago | parent [-] | | I wonder if wfh creates any loopholes here, and they just select areas where there are no real candidate pools. | | |
| ▲ | socializer an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | I've seen these ads. Not the latest, some things might have changed, but circa 2015-2018, this is how they rolled: 1. You choose newspapers that are least likely to actually reach people looking for tech jobs. 2. You post an small ad specifying the role in the most vague and unappealing terms. 3. There is some weird and inconvenient way to apply (e.g., fax- or snail-mail-only) that goes to /dev/null. You can argue that it follows the letter of the law, but as a practical matter, the outcome is always that there are no US-based applicants for any H-1B SWE role, so something is wonky, right? | | |
| ▲ | wincy 36 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Didn’t people start publishing lists of these and people started applying and these HR departments lost their minds? | | |
| ▲ | rdtsc 21 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Yup someone started to aggregate those. Corp lawyers probably laughed at their cuteness and then proceeded to obscure the process even more. Say, only publish in newspapers without an online presence, so someone has to physically scan it. Or find a small town where few people in tech live. Also notify the HR department to ensure to flag out all US applications for some other "unrelated reason" that look plausible on paper. | |
| ▲ | Melatonic 27 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Anyone know the list ? Curious to check it out | |
| ▲ | throwaway85825 26 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yes, jobs.now |
|
| |
| ▲ | Karliss an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | What's the point of bringing in workers into US just to have them work remotely from home? At that point why not have them work remotely from other side of ocean. | | |
| ▲ | throwup238 an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Cultural and timezone alignment. We’ve been here before with the outsourcing wave 20 years ago. The answers are still the same, remote is just a job perk. | | |
| ▲ | michaelt 23 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Before Covid-19, when you asked tech folks about outsourcing to central American countries (or even within the US to places with lower wages than the bay area), the answer would always be "nothing can replace in-person meetings around a real whiteboard" |
| |
| ▲ | Melatonic 26 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Taxes probably. And you can bring them in if necessary occasionally. It's a lot less accounting work to have most of your workers in the same state. Imagine single workers or small groups in many different countries. | |
| ▲ | an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
|
|
|
|
| ▲ | literalAardvark an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Those are some seriously out of touch requirements that could easily be fixed if anyone in power actually wanted to. |
| |
| ▲ | kentm an hour ago | parent [-] | | Yeah, I believe these are the requirements for PERM: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-20/chapter-V/part-656/sub... They are wildly out of date compared to how jobs are actually filled. Regardless of any other enforcement actions, this needs to be fixed. I don't think it even needs congressional approval to change these. The DoL could do it. | | |
| ▲ | mattm 19 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Just copying the actual newspaper part here: (B) Advertisements in newspaper or professional journals. (1) Placing an advertisement on two different Sundays in the newspaper of general circulation in the area of intended employment most appropriate to the occupation and the workers likely to apply for the job opportunity and most likely to bring responses from able, willing, qualified, and available U.S. workers. (2) If the job opportunity is located in a rural area of intended employment that does not have a newspaper with a Sunday edition, the employer may use the edition with the widest circulation in the area of intended employment. (3) The advertisements must satisfy the requirements of paragraph (f) of this section. Documentation of this step can be satisfied by furnishing copies of the newspaper pages in which the advertisements appeared or proof of publication furnished by the newspaper. (4) If the job involved in the application requires experience and an advanced degree, and a professional journal normally would be used to advertise the job opportunity, the employer may, in lieu of one of the Sunday advertisements, place an advertisement in the professional journal most likely to bring responses from able, willing, qualified, and available U.S. workers. Documentation of this step can be satisfied by providing a copy of the page in which the advertisement appeared. | | |
| ▲ | kentm 5 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I'm more speaking to the point that the options are "newspaper or professional journals" in the-year-of-our-lord 2026. Job sites are under a section that gives a pool of other options of which the employer must pick three. Those requirements should be flipped (job sites are the requirement, newspaper and journals are one of the extra options) if the DoL wasn't asleep at the wheel. |
|
|
|
|
| ▲ | rayiner 2 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| [delayed] |
|
| ▲ | LoveMortuus an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Waa! Is that why I'm still unemployed, because I haven't been buying (or reading) newspapers... |
| |
| ▲ | dawnerd an hour ago | parent [-] | | I’m sure they’d find a reason to pass on anyone that does apply through those ads. | | |
|
|
| ▲ | simonw 35 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I heard that this rule is genuinely keeping the lights on for some local print media publications. |
| |
| ▲ | antonvs 31 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Socialism with extra steps. Not that socialism is inherently bad, but why not just be honest about it and implement it more directly? Who am I kidding, socialism is the bogeyman doing hero's duty sustaining unrestricted ultracapitalism. |
|
|
| ▲ | penskymaterial 43 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Are you trying to justify the exploitation of this loophole? Nearly all these ads say "Send CVs to immigration_department@tech.corp" they aren't even trying to conceal what they're doing. |
|
| ▲ | cryptonector 27 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > • The newspaper must be widely distributed in the area where the job is located. > It doesn't say anywhere that it cannot be advertised in a small town. What does 'widely distributed' mean if not "not just in a small town"? |
| |
|
| ▲ | ojbyrne an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I would hazard a guess that Microsoft follows this process exactly, and this probably won't hold up in court. But it looks like good midterm fodder! |
|
| ▲ | siscia an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > It doesn't say anywhere that it cannot be advertised in a small town. I think it is implies in: "The newspaper must be widely distributed in the area where the job is located." |
| |
| ▲ | nilamo an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | When the job is wfh, the entire globe is where the job is located. Are there any physical rags that are widely distributed globally? Maybe it's time to rewrite the aged and archaic laws, instead of selectively applying them to a handful of companies... | | |
| ▲ | e12e 43 minutes ago | parent [-] | | If the job is WFH, is green card applicable? | | |
| ▲ | nilamo 28 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Why wouldn't it be? | | |
| ▲ | e12e 24 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Because you could... Work from home? In Canada or India? | | |
| ▲ | nilamo 18 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Is that supposed to be a downside? I honestly don't see why that would matter. If someone is working for a US company, then they're working for a US company. The flag sticking out of the ground where they sit shouldn't be relevant. |
|
|
|
| |
| ▲ | brainwad an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | But if the job is located in Redmond, does that mean widely distributed in Redmond itself, or the Eastside, or all King County, or the whole Puget Sound area? |
|
|
| ▲ | Melatonic 28 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Sounds like a good time to start responding to newspaper job ads |
|
| ▲ | garbawarb an hour ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Yes, these are literally the guidelines provided by the DOL. And the government seems to want to punish companies for following the exact published guidelines. |
| |
| ▲ | Neil44 an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Oh come on, if a company is placing job ads to comply with the letter of this law in 2026 they're 100% exploiting the process Vance outlines and would undoubtedly try to exploit whatever the replacement process was as well. | | |
| ▲ | bialpio an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Nothing prevents the administration from changing the law then, last time I checked their party holds all three branches of government + SCOTUS. | | |
| ▲ | adamrezich an hour ago | parent [-] | | Are we referring to the same administration that is met with immediate resistance from an activist judiciary whenever it tries to do literally anything? | | |
| ▲ | thfuran 26 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Maybe they should stop trying to do illegal things. | | |
| ▲ | adamrezich 21 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Is this thing they're doing illegal? | | |
| ▲ | bialpio 7 minutes ago | parent [-] | | No, just selective enforcement and maybe sending a message that if you don't behave, the administration may look a bit harder into you than it normally would. |
|
|
|
| |
| ▲ | bathtub365 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Following the published guidelines is not exploiting them. If the government doesn’t like their own guidelines, they should change them. | |
| ▲ | sjducb an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Agreed, if a company wants to fill roles it advertises on linked in. Maybe the rules need updating. | |
| ▲ | IAmBroom an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Where "100% exploiting the process" means complying 100% with the standards. | | |
| ▲ | setr an hour ago | parent [-] | | Ethereum has “code is law”, but we can still have a notion of the code being exploited, because it is the intent that’s been exploited |
|
| |
| ▲ | QGQBGdeZREunxLe an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Not really. Meta had to change advertising to allow online applications. https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/justice-labor-depart... |
|