| ▲ | 0c3ca83 3 hours ago |
| Yes, if the product is seen as bad for the world, it won't sell. But it's pretty bad for people, and I don't know how you'd hide that for the people being harmed. |
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| ▲ | palmotea 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| > Yes, if the product is seen as bad for the world, it won't sell. But it's pretty bad for people, and I don't know how you'd hide that for the people being harmed. That's not true. There are all kinds of products that benefit certain people, so sell, but are overall harmful to the world or a harmful to much larger number of people than those who benefit. > and I don't know how you'd hide that for the people being harmed. The trick is to make the people being harmed too powerless to stop the harm being done to them. Then your problem is solved and everyone (who matters) is happy. |
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| ▲ | edot 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| There are lots of products we know are bad for the world that still sell plenty well. Petroleum products (to include plastic), cigarettes, alcohol, guns, etc. People generally understand that all of the above are not clear absolute negatives. There are some positives to each. And to LLMs. |
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| ▲ | dfxm12 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | These are all regulated in ways openai (or ai in general) isn't. Many of which have specific regulations around advertising. |
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| ▲ | jackb4040 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The problem that is unique to the AI labs is, how to make people not hate it while continuing to believe it will probably kill all humans in 3-4 years |
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| ▲ | thewhitetulip 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The same way Goebbels did fir Nazis |
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| ▲ | ch4s3 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Is Altman planning to annex the Sudetenland? | | |
| ▲ | palmotea 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Is Altman planning to annex the Sudetenland? No, he's not a literalist throwback. But he is planning to glorify and expand his OpenAI reich. | | |
| ▲ | ch4s3 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | This is insanely hyperbolic. OepnAI is not a "reich" there is no empire here, it's a company and some data centers. They don't have paramilitary thugs, territorial ambitions, or genocidal intent. They're just a run of the mill company run by an asshole. | | |
| ▲ | jackb4040 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > They don't have paramilitary thugs In many municipalities across the country they have purchased the police department, made them to sign NDAs, and had them arrest people for speaking against data centers in open forums. | | |
| ▲ | ch4s3 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | OpenAI has not purchased any police departments this is a lie. |
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| ▲ | mrguyorama an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | No, he just wants you cut off from society if you don't submit your eye to his orb and he doesn't want you to be able to use this thing that he claims is so powerful unless he has total authority over who can and cannot use it and what for. |
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| ▲ | BenzeneDream 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Its not pretty bad for people. |
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| ▲ | 0c3ca83 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Go talk to an artist, a junior developer, or a musician. And then realize that the goal is to generalize the damage to every other intellectual domain. | | |
| ▲ | bradishungry 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Don’t forget the effect on students! It has the potential to be a great learning tool, but nothing is in place for that to happen. It more likely just kills all reinforcement learning | | |
| ▲ | petcat 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > kills all reinforcement learning I have the opposite experience. My intellectual curiosity has increased immensely since starting to use Chat GPT. I can snap a picture and instantly know what kind of bug I am looking at, whether I am looking at a Red-Tailed hawk or a Red-Shouldered hawk and how to tell the difference, what the gauges on my water tank and boiler mean, and numerous other things that I am curious about daily. These are things around me that I wouldn't have bothered to investigate just due to time and effort. And now I appreciate all these little curiosities more than ever. | | |
| ▲ | 0c3ca83 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | So tell me about the red tailed hawk. Why is it interesting, and how will you apply that in your life? According to current theories of learning, the best learning happens at the point of struggle, where you internalize that you went down a wrong path, and needed to backtrack. What part of the struggle of learning did you experience as a result of this, and how did it reshape other thought patterns? | | |
| ▲ | petcat 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I don't know what to tell you, it's just a tool man. Like a Google search or a trip to the library. Why don't you tell me about your struggle to research and discover all the science and technology behind indoor plumbing so you don't have to take a shit in the yard, or in your pants? | | |
| ▲ | 0c3ca83 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I don't think I ever pitched plumbing as a tool for learning (though, I did learn a lot by repairing it myself). |
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| ▲ | j4yav 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Being able to look something up real quick isn’t the same as knowing something, is it, especially in the specific absence of some reinforcement mechanism to retain it? | | |
| ▲ | petcat 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | This is suggesting that I can only know something if I had to painstakingly research and discover it myself? | | |
| ▲ | j4yav an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | I just mean that I’ve been able to casually look things up once in a moment of curiosity on the internet since the 90s. This did not lead to memorising all those interesting facts, much less understanding them, and I’m not sure what the mechanism is that would lead to that sort of knowledge acquisition. If anything I’ve probably learned less because I know I can just look something up I’d have otherwise needed to learn. And in any case, actually learning hasn’t resulted in a collection of random otherwise unrelated facts I can remember, but understanding systems and relationships. The knowledge I have learned has indeed come from what might arguably be described as, maybe not as painstaking, but certainly something with intention and effort. To me it sounds like you’re describing learning to write by having ChatGPT write essays for you. You don’t actually know how to identify birds, you know how to ask your phone to do it for you. Though I can understand the illusion this may cause you to feel. I get the same when I watch high level chess players play, and then am reminded what I can actually do my next game. | |
| ▲ | jplusequalt 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | No, but your example of being able to quickly look something up doesn't back up your claim that AI will boost everyone's ability to learn. | | |
| ▲ | ipsod 17 minutes ago | parent [-] | | It does, though.
Whether or not they take advantage of it... "You can lead a horse to water..." |
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| ▲ | buellerbueller an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Wasn't that the exact point of Terrence Tao's "A Severe Misalignment of AI in Mathematics"? [1] [1] https://mathandai.org/ |
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| ▲ | ipsod 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Same. Reminds me of this cartoon: https://imgur.com/life-before-google-q0eP1Rg __ "Life Before Google: A Short Story" dog: I just thought of something I'd like to know more about. rabbit: That's a damn shame. THE END | |
| ▲ | vablings 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I mean for me personally I have always had an obsession for knowing these things anyways, it just lowered the barrier to entry for me a little bit in terms of information gathering First I went from asking my parents then reading lots of books then specifically researching on google and forums now for most general knowledge information I can just ask AI | |
| ▲ | jplusequalt 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | >These are things around me that I wouldn't have bothered to investigate just due to time and effort. And now I appreciate all these little curiosities more than ever. I think you're conflating access to information with genuine learning. |
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| ▲ | howunfortunate 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | This same argument is easily dismissed by most because it boils down to "why not dig with spoons?" It only becomes compelling to me if you believe in true AGI/ASI, at which point all human labor becomes irrelevant, and then we have something quite new to think about. But simply "it automates away a small portion of jobs" is not compelling. | | |
| ▲ | 0c3ca83 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | How much of human labor has to become irrelevant before we have something new to think about? |
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| ▲ | tantalor 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It has literally contributed to suicide and murders: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deaths_linked_to_chatbots Here's just a taste: > ChatGPT was shown to support and even encourage dangerous drug use, with statements such as "Hell yes—let's go full trippy mode" and advice on reducing his Xanax tolerance so that a single tablet will "fuck you up" | | |
| ▲ | lucumo 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > It has literally contributed to suicide and murders: So have ballpoint pens. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-32489335
https://www.tribune242.com/news/2020/jan/22/ballpoint-pen-ki...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hi-Fi_murders | |
| ▲ | ipsod 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > It has literally contributed to suicide and murders So have many pharmaceuticals that are generally regarded as beneficial. Suicide is a side effect of more than a few, but doctors disregard that, believing that the results are worth the risk. | | |
| ▲ | tantalor 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Drugs that carry a risk of suicide are required to have a black box warning. Should we add that to ChatGPT too? | | |
| ▲ | ipsod 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Honestly, a lot of people could stand to be a lot more informed about what they're getting into. People could use a lot more skepticism when interacting with AI, social media, news feeds, and basically every other form of media, especially those originating at the top of some pyramid or another. I don't tend to like controls or regulations, though. Not that they aren't needed, but I don't trust the people responsible for writing and enforcing them. More often than not, they are just the top of the pyramid squashing everything beneath it. |
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| ▲ | Lerc 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | How proportional is it to deaths caused by other technologies by usage? With large enough numbers the existence of any extremely rare event becomes certain. Consequently claiming there are instances carries no information value. Proportionality is the only sensible measure. How much more dangerous are Chatbots compared to, say, teapots? | | |
| ▲ | Insanity 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | That’s close to whataboutism.. just because other technology can also be dangerous doesn’t absolve OpenAI/ChatGPT. Also, ChatGPT is clearly exerting a massive (potential) influence on people if their MAU numbers are to be believed, so rightfully it should get attention on the potential harm. |
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| ▲ | officeplant 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Thank you for your service, your influencer token stipend has been applied to your account. | |
| ▲ | skybrian 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It can be bad for some people (many stories in the news about this) while still being good for other people. Hard to say overall or in the long run. | | |
| ▲ | selfhoster1312 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'd like to argue the other way around, it can be bad for some people while still being extinction-level bad for entire species. I'm not talking about sentient AI going Matrix, i'm talking about the real material impact of datacenters being built so that a small minority can enjoy funny tools. | | |
| ▲ | ipsod 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Do data centers compare to the human population going from 2 billion to 8 billion over the past 100 years? Or, are they just a drop in the ocean? | | |
| ▲ | selfhoster1312 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Oh, they're more than a drop in the ocean for sure. Which doesn't mean there's not other things to address, where population is definitely not the main problematic factor, but consumerism is (and throwaway culture). This kind of whataboutism is fallacious, you can do better. EDIT: As a small anecdotal point, any new human activity that is measured in GW of power consumption is not a drop in the ocean. Admitted, some of these data centers projects are "only" in the 100s MW scale, but all of this combined is increasing electricity consumption by a vast amount overall. |
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| ▲ | skybrian 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Extinction due to building too many data centers? How would that even work? | | |
| ▲ | selfhoster1312 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | It's not just the data centers, but it's part of a bigger trend of massive industrial projects depleting natural resources for questionable benefits for humanity. There's basically two approaches to ecological problems: either pretend some wonder technology (AI?) is going to save us all and keep driving straight into the wall, or seriously question any industrial activity in a cost/benefit analysis. Our society is currently headed in the first scenario, building ever more useless shit and accelerating environmental collapse, pretending CO2 capture, AI, unlimited energy storage, agro-bots, desalination and on-site recycling of complex materials will magically keep life sustainable despite any scientific evidence showing otherwise. | | |
| ▲ | skybrian an hour ago | parent [-] | | There are some projects I'd consider to be useless, but it doesn't seem very likely that data centers will be useless. Maybe not used for their original purpose, though? |
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| ▲ | user43928 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Debatable. Many of the vocal critics claiming AI will make us all dumb and is terrible go "I have two Max subscriptions myself.." at some point in the discussion. |
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| ▲ | delecti 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Hypocrisy is not actually a counterargument though. "Don't do this thing I do" doesn't mean they're wrong when they argue against that thing, and if anything can be a source of anecdata to bolster their case. | | |
| ▲ | maxbond 20 minutes ago | parent [-] | | That's true but what they were saying is that people may be willing to pay for AI even if they believe it has terrible externalities, not that they are insincere in their beliefs. |
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| ▲ | 0c3ca83 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | If they didn't, wouldn't you argue that they don't know what they're talking about since they haven't experienced it? | | |
| ▲ | user43928 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | The question was whether AI sells despite negative sentiment. It seems to me that more people express a negative opinion than are ready to forego the convenience. Maybe not unlike climate action, where you will see strong agreement ideologically, but little tolerance for personal inconvenience. |
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| ▲ | selfhoster1312 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | That's a strawman argument. I'm pretty critical of LLMs and i don't use such tools. However, even in the strawman version, why dismiss the experiences of people suffering first hand from those tools? I mean, to make a terribly bad analogy, i don't immediately discount the bad experiences of soldiers in regards to killing people, or of addicts in regards to drug abuse. | | |
| ▲ | user43928 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I specifically expressed doubt about the claim that the useful product would not sell because of negative sentiment. Here I'm pointing out that often it seems the usefulness outweighs the negative sentiment as even many vocal critics seem to use the tool. As for dismissing supposed first hand experiences of suffering, I see none here. The critics often argue on other's behalf. | |
| ▲ | andsoitis 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > why dismiss the experiences of people suffering first hand from those tools? Because if you’re paying voluntarily for a tool that you don’t need, you have agency to remove your “suffering” by canceling your subscription and not use it! So the “suffer” complaint in those instances can be dismissed. | | |
| ▲ | selfhoster1312 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That's like saying you just have to stop being a wage slave for a corporation and suddenly you're free.. but you still have to pay the bills. That's a fallacious argument. All people i know around me who use LLMs and have subscriptions are forced upon them by their employers. But even for "willing" users, questions of addiction come into play. | |
| ▲ | jackb4040 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Nobody lives on their own planet. There are countless systems that we all depend on that suck by design. No one would say you're not allowed to criticize American health insurance or social media just because you're forced to participate in them if you don't wanna go down like Ted Kaczynski. This is such a moving goalpost anyways. If someone is a prominent AI critic and doesn't regularly use the tools, that becomes the main line of attack. But the second they get a subscription ALL their criticism is cancelled a priori. |
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| ▲ | palmotea 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > However, even in the strawman version, why dismiss the experiences of people suffering first hand from those tools? Because the people doing that dismissing are being dishonest. Their goal is to attack and discredit their enemy, period. Critical testimony from a user has some vague similarities to hypocrisy, so can be twisted for propaganda purposes and portrayed as hypocrisy. |
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