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godelski 5 hours ago

I hope people remember this when advocating for chromium. Just because it is open source doesn't mean they don't control it. We need to start the long process of hard forking now or turn to alternatives like Firefox as a new foundation.

  > Google simply regrets android being open source.
Android wouldn't be what it is if it wasn't open source. With all the work from outside Google. The same is true chrome.

But they won't learn that on their own. They are breaking the deals. So we move. We force their hand

saghm 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> But they won't learn that on their own

I think they're fully aware of this. They just don't care, because the goal of "get market share super high" has been reached, so now they have no need for it to continue being open.

I don't disagree about what that means we should do; I just don't think we should assume they're being naive here. It's like writing a program to play chess; you should select your move assuming the opponent is smart and will make the optimal counterplay rather than assuming weakness, and then if they end up being less smart than that, you're still in a good place.

lokar 10 minutes ago | parent [-]

I think this is true, but I also believe the original people who built it are not the people in charge now.

arcanemachiner 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Android wouldn't be what it is if it wasn't open source.

Yes, and now that they've achieved market saturation, it's time to pull up the ladder.

Thanks for all the free work, suckers!

spydum 17 minutes ago | parent [-]

Don't worry, we will fork and just repeat the pattern with new names! See you next time!

StilesCrisis 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Hard forking doesn't solve the problem of closed source.

If the goal of a hard fork is "the community will invest equal resources that Google does today" then you wildly underestimate how many engineers work on Chrome.

ocdtrekkie an hour ago | parent | next [-]

The bigger problem is wasting developer effort contributing to Google's platform. The real secret behind Android being "open" (sorta) is that while almost nobody runs AOSP, Google has tricked a bunch of fools into working on Android forks instead of building a real competitor.

Playing at their table is a losing game, the house always wins.

mitxela 37 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Windows only isn't still 90% market share because of Wine, then Proton.

ocdtrekkie 4 minutes ago | parent [-]

Neither Wine nor Proton run on Windows. Building Android emulators for Linux: Worth your time. Building Android knockoffs which claim to remove the Google from Google's operating system? Foolishness.

charcircuit 17 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

The developer effort is not wasted because it's open source. Anyone can fork it at any time. None of it can be thrown away from humanity, wasting it.

The reason why no one runs AOSP is because the phone market rewards differentiation. Each phone manufacture wants to build their own experience and building on top of AOSP is how they do so.

Is it really a losing game? Building a new OS from scratch is not worth it. Why throw away an entire app catalog for your device? Consumers want access to existing app catalogs when buying a phone. If anything is a losing game it's building a new mobile operating system over forking Android as a base.

ocdtrekkie 3 minutes ago | parent [-]

If you are not working to destroy Android, you are supporting it. You might feel happy about your custom ROM nonsense and how it protects your privacy, but that just means you're selfish, because nearly everyone will still be trapped on Google's version.

Technologists need to aggressively reject solutions which don't spread freedom to ordinary users as well.

Forgeties79 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

But the open source project wouldn’t need to invest as much as Google does. There are all kinds of features and things they are working on that the general public really does not care about.

paulryanrogers 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> But the open source project wouldn’t need to invest as much as Google does.

Not at first. Yet over time the work increases as one must differ more and more from Chrome. I believe that's why so many forks are giving up on Manifest V2.

charcircuit 21 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Forks are giving up on mv2 because it's not as important as the people online say it is. If mv2 was what would cause a browser to gain market share they would keep maintaining it, but if the market is not rewarding browsers with mv2 then it does not make sense to maintain.

Forgeties79 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Differentiating isn’t as important as not engaging in Google‘s heinous practices

StilesCrisis 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

redeeman 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

but perhaps we dont need several gigabytes compressed code to have a browser. perhaps what google have been doing is an utter abomination?

atomicnumber3 2 hours ago | parent [-]

This is cool until Google doesn't load in your free browser.

bossyTeacher 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Then, you use this: https://duckduckgo.com/

Actually, use it now.

jchoksi 2 hours ago | parent [-]

https://lite.duckduckgo.com/lite

takeda 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Actually it is still cool if they don't.

Because of their enshitification we do have alternatives that were developed.

At this point the their only services I'm using are Maps, Translate and Keep Notes and it is mostly due to lazyiness as all of those already have alternatives.

Edit: forgot about YouTube, which is ironic, because that one is a toughest one because the value comes from creators, but I'm doing my part and using GrayJay[1] so I can follow them if they switch their platform.

[1] https://grayjay.app/

cecexacjrgec 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> or turn to alternatives like Firefox as a new foundation.

With the way Firefox is heading, that might not be the best idea. Nowadays Mozilla seem more focused on riding the AI-hype wave than actually making an excellent browser people want to actually use.

bryanlarsen 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Is Firefox or Mozilla perfect? Heck no. But we're not comparing Mozilla against pre-IBM Red Hat or Ben & Jerry's or whatever your concept of the ideal corporate citizen is. We're comparing Mozilla against Google. That's a very low bar that Mozilla clears with ease, especially if you're criteria includes shoving AI down your throat.

mitxela 36 minutes ago | parent [-]

I'm not sure Mozilla clears it. Zen or Librewolf or PaleMoon clears it.

josephg 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Mozilla definitely wastes a bunch of money building features I don’t want. But underneath it all, Firefox is still an excellent web browser. You just occasionally have to disable “pocket” or “gadgets” or something.

II2II 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It is sad to see Firefox riding various hype trains over the years, but I can't really blame them. Miss the wrong train, and you fall behind and may not be able to catch up. Miss the train to nowhere, and you are only wasting resources.

As for the excellent browser that people want, that raises the question of what people want. There are likely as many answers as people.

cecexacjrgec 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Yeah. It’s a tough balance to achieve but that’s the situation we’re in right now so Mozilla really ought to step up (and I totally wish they would).

My biggest pain point at the moment (entirely subjective mind you) is not even the AI nonsense, but how disjointed and alien the Firefox UX and general feel is to Apple platforms (what I use, at the moment). I don’t want Firefox to mirror Safari 1:1 but I do want the Firefox UI and UX to feel polished, well thought out and thoroughly in line with system HIG specs—given that I spend a lot of time in a browser, it shouldn’t feel like a stranger in a strange land amidst my other desktop applications.

Aggressive UI improvements would go a long way to restore some faith in the incandescent fox‘ mission—at least for me.

takeda 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Maybe I'm not enough of an Apple fanboy but using work provided mac with firefox for 15 years I never noticed UI being disjointed from the system any more than Chrome.

josephg 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

What aspects feel foreign on macOS? The Firefox preferences for sure. Anything else?

weikju 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Tab close buttons are on the right (windows style) instead of on the left (macOS style), for one.

odo1242 3 minutes ago | parent [-]

I mean, it’s the same on every browser except Safari

jdjfnfjdjjeh an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Mozilla gets 100M a year from Google ??? No fucking way they are biting the hand that feeds.

stuaxo 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It's not really a "both sides" thing given the scale difference between what Google is up to and that.

cecexacjrgec 4 hours ago | parent [-]

No one is forcing Mozilla’s hand (afaik) and no one is actually thinking “if Firefox had a chatbot that might convince me to move over”. Youre right that it is not a “both sides” thing, its a “Mozilla thing”. Through and through.

mitxela 35 minutes ago | parent [-]

Some people are thinking "Firefox doesn't have a chatbot so I'll use chrome" though

Henchman21 11 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Ahem. Ladybird.

charcircuit 25 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There are already several different forks of Chromium and they are able to make their own decisions on points where they want to differentiate from upstream or other browsers in the market.

awakeasleep 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The “we” in your post is interesting to me. Who do you mean? Individuals?

nomel 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> So we move. We force their hand

What do you have in mind?

PaulCarrack 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> We need to start the long process of hard forking now or turn to alternatives like Firefox as a new foundation.

3 hours ago | parent | next [-]
[deleted]
luqtas 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

oh yes sure. just like we can shift the population into installing Debian into their machines so we also deter M$ and Apple abuse /s

olyjohn 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

We did it before. Thanks to Firefox we broke the IE6 monopoly even on Windows.

mitxela 34 minutes ago | parent [-]

How did that happen, anyway? Tabs? What's the next killer feature after tabs? Maybe sync?

NOTanAlagent 23 minutes ago | parent [-]

[dead]

Rohansi 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It's so much easier to switch browsers than platform/OS. Unless you have an iPhone or iPad.

sieabahlpark 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

saghm 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm reading your comment on Firefox. You can probably read mine and write a reply on it too!

JumpCrisscross 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Donate to Ladybird https://ladybird.org/

jm4 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

They have their own problems. They may be "open source", but they don't accept contributions. I'm skeptical it will ever become more than a hobby project.

tech234a 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Commit activity actually increased after they blocked external contributions in June: https://github.com/LadybirdBrowser/ladybird/graphs/commit-ac...

ragnese 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Is not accepting contributions the only/biggest issue you have with the project? I'm honestly becoming more and more okay with the "cathedral" style of open source. Depending on the project, catering to "the community" can lead a loss of focus, lack of a cohesive "vision" or scope, and just generally trying to be everything to everyone without the resources to maintain a giant beast.

With something like a browser (engine), I'm totally okay with someone saying "I'm an expert and I'm trying something with my own vision/priorities. I don't want input from random people that I have to spend time evaluating."

seb1204 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes I can relate to this. Picking good, valuable feedback out of the noise has become a chore.

takeda 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It's on BSD license, Google or someone else can again Embrace, Extend, Extinguish.

shevy-java 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Well, it is time to realise that GPL and similar variants, are better in the long term. I like MIT too, but GPL worked so much better for the linux kernel. Google and others abuse the ecosystem of open source contributors here.

microtonal 5 hours ago | parent [-]

You mean the Linux kernel that the GrapheneOS project has to request every update for and then has to wait up to weeks to get a Google Drive link?

The GPL is worth nothing if nobody is enforcing it aggressively.

mitxela 34 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Yes, as opposed to the Fuchsia kernel where they wouldn't even get that. We're lucky Google is institutionally incapable of creating things.

nomel 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Could you quote the part of the GPL that they're not adhering to (which you seem to be implying), in this situation?

dvdkon 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The GPL is the only reason they even get that. More enforcement would certainly be good, but it's not like the GPL is worthless without a legal team backing you up.

jauntywundrkind 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's sad we lost ChromeOS. They got Linux, they got open source, they didn't make so so so many unforced errors.

Now that the chromebooks are also Android, it feels like the slide is only going to grow ever more fearsome.

the_real_cher 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

LOL "start" using Firefox. I've been using Firefox for half a decade. There's zero I miss about Chrome.

weikju 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Rather than being smug, I’ll say awesome! The best time to start using Firefox is yesterday. The second best time is now.

IOW:

Don’t threaten to stop using Google Chrome if they do one more evil thing. Start now.

drnick1 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Some of us have been using it for two decades more or less.

OtomotO 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

LOL half a decade.

I've been using it for more than 20 years.

I don't know why either of use loled though

vsviridov 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

LOL, I've been using it since Netscape Navigator 3.0 Gold, via Mozilla M3 (SeaMonkey tech preview), Phoenix, Firebird, and then finally Firefox :D

cecexacjrgec 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Me too. Too bad I had to abandon it because Mozilla seem more focused on making AI-nonsense than a browser nowadays. No, Firefox, you don’t need AI features. You do need a better UI. You do need smoother scrolling. You do need privacy focus (which automatically means you do not need AI features). You do need to feel like you belong on the platform you’re installed on and not wish everything were Linux. You do need better designers that understand UX is not just “add controls everywhere”.

takeda 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I'm assuming you use Lynx now then? Because I don't think you would be using Chrome or its clone if that's where you draw the line?

josephg 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Huh? What ai features? Firefox seems largely the same as it did a few years ago.

I’m not doubting they added some ai junk somewhere. But whatever they did seems very easy to ignore.

olyjohn 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Its just an excuse people use to keep using thier beloved shiny brand.

nunodonato 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Mosaic :P

usrnm 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I've been using it since the time it was called Netscape Navigator. Just sayin'

nunodonato 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Loved netscape navigator! That entire suite with mail, website builder (composer?)

fragmede 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Shit, remember Mosaic? Gopher?

mrkstu 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Any fellow CompuServe users around???