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whythismatters 14 hours ago

How does it compare to previous (human) translations, what is the regurgitation level? In any case, lots of em dashes, so mission accomplished to bring it up to contemporary standards.

ktzar 13 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Emily Wilson's translation is way better, more modern and adequate to present-day readers and, probably more context aware.

spinchange 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I love Wilson's work and take it as inspiration. Incidentally, I spotted an error in the first printing of her Odyssey that the publisher acknowledged on twitter and fixed in subsequent printings. I am not a professional, just an obsessive with a special interest. In a spirit of intellectual honesty, the fact that she is reportedly re-translating The Odyssey again is an indication that one of perfect adequacy might be elusive.

paytonjjones 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Maybe it's just me, but "modern" and "context-aware" are the two things I most want to avoid when seeking out a translation of an ancient text.

dbuxton 13 hours ago | parent [-]

There's no such thing as a "timeless" translation - if you read something written by Victorians you'll get all sorts of overlaid assumptions and biases, just ones that are unfamiliar

paytonjjones 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

For me, that unfamiliarity is precisely the point of reading something ancient.

Bootvis 11 hours ago | parent [-]

Then you need to read the original. A translator is a product of their time.

suddenlybananas 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

They didn't say they wanted a timeless translation.

adamdb 12 hours ago | parent [-]

Continually revising a text to be modern and context-aware would indeed make it timeless.

spinchange 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I find it to be cross between Richmond Lattimore and Ian Johnston. There are line-level annotations that discuss translation choices and a hyperlinked index w/ Latinate pronunciations was also built from scratch.

suddenlybananas 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

https://theclaudyssey.com/read/book-01.html#n1

The first line is a crappy mishmash of Lattimore and Fagles.

Lattimore: >Tell me, Muse, of the man of many ways, who was driven far journeys, after he had sacked Troy's sacred citadel.

Fagles: >Sing to me of the man, Muse, the man of twists and turns driven time and again off course, once he had plundered the hallowed heights of Troy.

Claude: >Tell me the man, Muse — the man of many turnings, who was driven wandering far, once he had sacked Troy's holy citadel

Combining "man of many ways" and "man of twists and turns" into "man of many turnings" is just dreck.

kamranjon 13 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The sort of sad but interesting thing here is that while this claims to be a more direct translation, Claude models were certainly trained on all of the pre-existing translations and this is likely going to directly influence the output in the ways you've outlined here. I'm not sure any modern LLM could honestly be claimed to produce a translation that doesn't draw on these pre-existing sources.

gjm11 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You're making two separable criticisms: (1) that Fable's translation is a mere "mishmash of Lattimore and Fagles" and (2) that it's a crappy one.

I'm not seeing, from what you quote, how this is more "mishmash" than "translation of the same underlying text as them".

As for whether it's crappy, that's a pretty subjective matter; for what little it's worth "of many turnings" doesn't seem particularly dreck-y to me; it seems in fact a rather literal rendering of "polytropos" and -- as Fable's footnote says -- one that maintains some of the ambiguity between "one whose paths have turned many ways" and "one with a twisty-turny sort of disposition". I am no scholar of ancient Greek and there's no reason why anyone should pay particular regard to my tastes on this; but what is asserted without evidence may be controverted without evidence.

(The one thing in those three lines that I would describe as dreck is "driven far journeys" which to me seems barely grammatical. "Secret" seems like a weird choice, too.)

suddenlybananas 12 hours ago | parent [-]

>driven far journeys" which to me seems barely grammatical

"Tell me the man" and "of many turnings" sound far, far worse, not to mention the egregious em-dash. Obviously there's no way to really _prove_ what is good taste, but I would be quite surprised to hear you really think that Lattimore is worse than Claude here.

>"Secret" seems like a weird choice, too

This seems to be an OCR error from the source I copied online! Digging up a real copy, it's sacred rather than secret! I've since corrected this.

jhanschoo 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"man of many turnings", is a more literal translation of polytropon than Lattimore and Fagles, and and in fact the whole line is better analysed as an original, literal translation from common dictionary glosses than a "crappy mishmash". Many people who want to give a literal gloss say "man of many turns" or "many-turned man".

> ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν·

man(acc.) me(dat.) tell(pres. imp.), Muse(voc.), many-turn(acc.), who(nom.) very(adv.) far(acc.) wandered(aor. 3sg. m.p., but note active sense of "to drive off"), after(adv.) Troy(acc.) holy(acc.) city(acc.) (he) sack(aor. 3sg.)

Glosses my own, text from https://scaife.perseus.org/reader/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0012.t...

suddenlybananas 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Claude repeats man twice like Fagles, despite that not being in the Greek. Using driven and wandering is a weird repetition rather than just using "made to wander" which is a more natural way of directly translating the passive. Claude uses the "driven" in both Fagles and Lattimore. It also drops the "very" for no apparent reason (also not present in Fagles or Lattimore). Claude uses "once he had sacked Troy's holy citadel" mirroring Fagles's phasing, when you could just translate it "after he sacked the holy city of Troy". It also uses citadel rather than city, copying Lattimore.

Vis-à-vis polytropos, I just think that "man of many-turnings" sounds god-awful, but the similarity was mostly the fact it uses the construction "man of x" like Fagles and Lattimore rather than a normal adjective like in the Greek.

eszed 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I rather like "man of many turnings", on the page.

The problem I have with Claude's version - same as Lattimore, in fact - is that it's really hard to read aloud; the rhythm just doesn't hit right. Fagles is the best for that, though I'm aware of the occasional liberties he takes to achieve a high poetic standard in English. There are 19th c and earlier translations that wander even further; I love the balance that Fagles strikes.

I've got Wilson downstairs, though I've not read it yet.

13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
spinchange 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The only thing Fable was given was a clean of copy of the ancient Greek. This is not a bastardization of other translations. I appreciate and value the critical feedback in any case (truly).

I find that Fagles is very majestic -wonderful, really- but he's also very liberal (poetically) and definitely did not limit himself to the same number of lines as Homer as this project did.

magicalist 13 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> The only thing Fable was given was a clean of copy of the ancient Greek. This is not a bastardization of other translations

FWIW I gave GPT-5.5 two lines of William Cowper's translation (long out of copyright to avoid any filters) without web search and not only was it able to identify it, it was able to continue it verbatim for roughly 30 lines at which point it went off course, but only by skipping like two books ahead. If I had supplied the original text as an anchor it presumably could have kept going.

I didn't try it with Fable because I'm lazy, but all these translations (presumably the ones within copyright too, given the lawsuits) are definitely well known by these models.

bnm04 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As another comment here points out, Fable likely had multiple translations, academic literature about the text, and maybe the original as well, in its training set. So even if only the original Greek was given to it as input it probably leveraged prior art when translating it.

veqq 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> The only thing Fable was given was a clean of copy of the ancient Greek

Ok, but this clearly combines a few translations line by line if you work through it.

mcphage 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> The only thing Fable was given was a clean of copy of the Ancient Greek.

…and all of its training data.

suddenlybananas 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You think Anthropic didn't train on some of the most famous translations of the Odyssey? Really?

spinchange 13 hours ago | parent [-]

No. I am saying that I had Fable do a literal word for word translation, and then did two independent review pass translations with models of different lineages and then had another adjudicate it. I am just saying what I did, that is all. It occurs to me as I am typing this that a human translator working on an Odyssey translation today would have similar "prior training," culturally. It's one of two of our oldest stories.

suddenlybananas 13 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes and if a human translator produced this work, it would be viewed as near plagiarism of Lattimore and Fagles. Compare this to Wilson. Wilson had surely read Lattimore and Fagles and yet produced something genuinely different (as much as I don't personally care for her translation). Claude just regurgitated others' half-digested work.