| ▲ | bapo 3 hours ago |
| Swiss here and able to vote. In fact, just posted my voting letter today, before taking a 1h bike ride through the biggest city in Switzerland, having lots of space and freedom biking around in our beautiful city. When taking the train to my parents house, I pass several farms and landly smaller cities. Alot of free space in between those, train mostly has spare seats, depending on rush hour timings. There usually are several big commercials on private farmer land stating “NO to 10 Million Population”, prompting people to vote YES on the SVP/UDC initiative. The initiative’s lancers seem to play a lot on people’s fear of overcrowding, which even in the most population-dense city in Switzerland seems like a joke. There’s a lot of space and quality of living is still amazing here. Yes, during rush hours, you might have to stand for 15-30min in public transport.
Yes, finding an appartment is getting harder and more difficult. But is this a problem of more people coming here or the failures of the state preparing for future population growth? We have so much space, benefits from diverse cultures and love for human beings. My letter was specifically voting AGAINST this initiative. |
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| ▲ | kuerbel 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Also swiss here. So many people seem to think that this is about refugees. Wrong. It's about Europeans. Mostly Germans. They are educated and highly skilled and for some swiss, that's a problem. They blame them for not finding a job or an appartement. Just read the comments on inside paradeplatz, you can translate with any llm, on a post about the referendum. A subset of the swiss Middle class has decided that they don't like competition, they want them gone. Of course they themselves are never the problem, the german with a middle management position is however, because quote "they are only hiring other Germans". Also voted no of course. |
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| ▲ | jansport123 an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | seems to be a common concern amongst the local population everywhere "X identity is hiring only X identity" | | |
| ▲ | xenonite an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Yes, we have a really well recognized Spanish team lead here, yet he’s mostly hiring Spanish people (in Switzerland), oh yes and one Italian is the exception. Also we had a German team lead hiring Germans, well surprise it is easier being with similar ones. Diversity back in the day meant Physics, Electrical Engineering and Mechanical Engineering working together… | | |
| ▲ | meken 36 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | I’m an American and I just had the thought - if I was working in Japan at a Japanese company and I had the opportunity to hire, would I have a bias to hire other Americans? Honestly probably, since I understand them the best. | |
| ▲ | deepsun 30 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yes, and that's normal (except for maybe eastern European cultures who better hire an American/west European). | |
| ▲ | vasco 29 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | > well surprise it is easier being with similar ones. It's not easier dealing with people from your own country but it is biased. From someone who has hired hundred+ remote developers in europe for 10 years to lead them and out of those hired a total of 2 people from my country. Wouldn't have been hard either. At the same time I see some managers doing this, currently in another fully remote company have a manager colleague that has hired 3 brazillians back to back. Go figure. Just shows you that it's a biased person in other respects (we all are) and that they make zero efforts to keep it in check (this is a decision you make). |
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| ▲ | an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | 24 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | einpoklum an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The text of the proposal disagrees with your claim. Or - are there lots of Europeans seeking asylum in Switzerland? | |
| ▲ | 0xWTF 29 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Swiss as racists. Amazing. People know Americans harbor racist feelings because they are surrounded by people of many races. But it's trivial to demonstrate racism among any population as soon as you introduce an "other" of virtually any type. | | |
| ▲ | xenonite 10 minutes ago | parent [-] | | No it isn’t racism as Germans had the same skin color. Keep in mind that Germans aren’t stereotypical anymore. In Switzerland live over 41% migrants and children of migrants (just 8.4%). So the native Swiss are not just “surrounded” but greatly diminished. |
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| ▲ | Schiendelman 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It's not just the state - it's your neighbors pushing the same building restrictions as the rest of the developed world, where people say "I don't want another neighbor next to me", which results in too few apartments for even the existing people's children... |
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| ▲ | kakacik 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | You should check Geneva then - they are building apartment buildings like crazy in past 5 years. Too much if you ask me - in very center, almost every small park or green spot is now 6 story concrete building. Only the biggest protected parks are untouched. City is visibly and permanently degrading into concrete field. Weirdly schizophrenic move - they try to keep pushing bike lanes everywhere, even where not safe to share the road, yet they also remove greenery and trees. I guess the money is too juicy. But not to just bash - they build on outskirts too. Switzerland as a country usually strikes good balance between various extremes, much better than US or EU countries do. I have no doubt they will work it out, not ideally, but better than most. Immigration they tackled much better than rest of Europe for example. And for the vote - its 1:1 Brexit. Vote for capping, damage your long term prosperity, and those unpopular jobs still will need to be staffed, or country will work worse, be dirtier etc. And if one can earn cleaning streets or putting stuff in shop shelves as much as cca doctor in France (with higher costs of life, but it doesn't have to be extreme), the amount of people willing to try coming and working is basically endless. The idea one can freeze time and keep the country as some idealized image from their childhood (without the nasty stuff that happened ie in 70s to orphaned kids en masse, aka Verdingkinder), one would have to become second North Korea. Everything changes these days, massively and quickly. Dictators won't be sending their kids to study here under false names anymore, would they. | | |
| ▲ | diath 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | These jobs are unpopular because the pay is shit, not because people don't want to do them, the government could simply have grants/bonus program for people employed in these positions so that the taxpayer money directly funds the bettering of the society and environment around them. Besides, Japan is a good real world example that you do not need to lean on immigrant labor to stop your country from becoming "dirty"; it's one of the most ethically homogeneous countries and also one of the cleanest places you can visit. | | | |
| ▲ | tempay an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > in very center, almost every small park or green spot is now 6 story concrete building I struggle to see this. Central Geneva is full of beautiful, well-maintained green spaces and children's play areas with plenty of larger parks scattered around. | |
| ▲ | jnwatson 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Geneva is the 2nd most expensive city to live in (behind Zurich). I commend any attempt at moderating prices by building more housing. | |
| ▲ | lejalv 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I agree about bike lanes in Geneva, they should take the space away from cars. Their success is so phenomenal, that they are carrying more passengers/h in some sections than the much wider street they flank. |
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| ▲ | MoonWalk 19 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Considering the other EU ramifications, this is basically Swixit, is it not? |
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| ▲ | izacus 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Well, first UK had to vote for their own anti immigration nonsense, then US tried out their MAGA winning and now it's time for Switzerland to follow in their footsteps and make their country great again with SVP at the helm. After all, this time it HAS to go better right? |
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| ▲ | like_any_other an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Sounds like a lovely place. Why wouldn't you want to pass a law to keep it that way? |
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| ▲ | flexagoon an hour ago | parent [-] | | Why would you want less people to live in a lovely place? | | |
| ▲ | skiing_crawling 38 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Maybe some (or many) people believe that more people will make it less "lovely". I think this is a popular stance and I think many people are more than satisfied with the current population density of their area. | |
| ▲ | like_any_other 29 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Ah now we're pretending we don't understand that the number of people affects what a place is like. Growing a small town of 10k into a metropolis of 1M won't change it at all. It'll just be like 100 small towns! |
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| ▲ | panick21_ 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Yes, finding an appartment is getting harder and more difficult. And that has everything to do with bad land use and housing polices. We all know what this issue really is, its right wing people using 'big number bad' logic because it sounds less racists then what they tried before and the goal has always been to close the border as much as possible again. |
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| ▲ | fHr 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | kypro 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | saagarjha 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Yeah I think a culture that turns away asylum seekers is pretty awful tbh | |
| ▲ | stouset 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Your xenophobia is not welcome here. | | |
| ▲ | Dig1t an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Sweden imported large numbers of people from Syria and Afghanistan, their gun violence rate has increased tenfold since 1990 because of it. >Homicide rates are heavily concentrated among individuals born outside of Sweden. For example, the homicide rate for 16-to-19-year-olds born in Africa was 161 per 100,000, and 78 per 100,000 for those born in Asia. In comparison, the rate for 16-to-19-year-olds born in Sweden to two Swedish-born parents was 15 per 100,000. It is entirely valid to ask questions about where your refugees come from. >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_Sweden >https://bra.se/english/publications/archive/2025-07-04-homic... | |
| ▲ | thin_carapace an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | do you have an answer as to how you would react if an ardent proponent of sharia law became your neighbour? or am i a xenophobe too for daring to consider the idea that aspects of some cultures are actively incompatible with certain aspects of others |
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| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > how diverse are we talking? Switzerland is deceptively effective at assimilation. Migrants tend to learn the local language and customs. | |
| ▲ | wat10000 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Many people are awful. I’d be fine with Afghan refugees moving in. Even if we accept the premise that Afghan culture is “awful,” wouldn’t the fact that they’ve fled the country indicate they’re not exactly in sync with that culture? I live in an extremely diverse area with many immigrants on my street and it’s fine. | | |
| ▲ | yonaguska 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | They could have fled for any number of reasons- that doesn't mean that they aren't exactly in sync with the culture they are coming from. And even if they aren't in sync with the culture they are fleeing- they very likely still hold radically different values than you. I met a man from Afghanistan sometime last year, however, once we got past the introductions and realized we shared things in common- he opened up to me and began trying to make me realize the value of Sharia law in America, and how much better it would be here if it became the cultural norm. | | |
| ▲ | wat10000 37 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | I’ve had that experience as well, except instead of Afghanistan it was America, and instead of Sharia law it was Biblical law. I am far more afraid of certain of my native-born countrymen than I am of people who come here. | |
| ▲ | wizzwizz4 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Sharia law is quite big! So big that I'm fairly certain that there is at least one aspect of Sharia law that you would agree with, even if (as it sounds like) you are overall against. If you accept that, you can have a honest discussion of the merits and detriments. I find it's best to break these things down and discuss them individually (or discuss how multiple rules combine to produce a particular effect, as the case may be): then it's easier to tease out which arguments are honest ("I genuinely think X is better, for Y reasons") and dishonest ("I think X is better for Y reasons, but I believe you'll find Z more persuasive, so I'll say Z"). There's also a phenomenon where people attribute beneficial (or detrimental) properties to one, visible part of a system, when they're really due to another: consider the arguments about capitalism versus communism, which are rarely actually about economic policy, and are more often about other (on the face of it, unrelated) policies of the state: your interlocutor might realise this after detailed discussion, if that is what is going on, when otherwise they might have gone their whole life without noticing the misattribution (as many people do). Cultural exchange can be mutually-beneficial, even if you both go away thinking "wow, that other guy was an idiot". |
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| ▲ | IlikeMadison 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | toader 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Please elaborate on this "harmful ideology you are trying to conceal"? | |
| ▲ | 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | tastyface 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I'd be *far* more concerned about living next to the Swiss equivalent of Tommy Robinson than a Muslim or African. |
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| ▲ | rayiner 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
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| ▲ | stymaar 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Nobody in Switzerland is worried about the population growing due to birthrate. This referendum is about stopping immigration (even though in Switzerland more than anywhere else, immigration is at the foundation of the country's wealth). | | |
| ▲ | rayiner 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > (even though in Switzerland more than anywhere else, immigration is at the foundation of the country's wealth). Is that true? Switzerland's foreign-born population was under 5% around WWII. Wasn't Switzerland already a rich country by then? | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Wasn't Switzerland already a rich country by then? In 1940, Switzerland’s GDP/capita was 2.9x [EDIT: the world average]; it peaked at 4.4x in 2000 and is now 3.8x [1]. (It increases linearly, long term, from the mid 20s until 2000.) Relative to Western Europe, Switzerland was 1.6x in 1950, about the same as today. [1] https://www.rug.nl/ggdc/historicaldevelopment/maddison/relea... | | |
| ▲ | ashdksnndck 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I feel like I have to read this backwards to perhaps understand it. Is 2.9x the multiplier of Swiss GDP/capita vs the Western Europe average in 1940? | | | |
| ▲ | 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | tempay 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In 1910 the foreign-born population was 14.7% and the drop around WWII was caused by other factors. Much of the industrialisation and banking industry was driven by immigrants. Arguably the wealth of today is the product of managing to avoid the worst of WWII and profiting from Switzerland's "neutrality" but that's an entire conversation by itself. | | |
| ▲ | kakacik 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Well they were neutral, its just most folks, even otherwise smart ones, don't like true neutral behavior if it doesn't actually favor their side, hence such 'smart' snarky remarks I can see all the time, by people feeling they know history. Swiss accepted everybody, hundreds of thousands of refugees too, some parts even when it became obvious they will all face starvation since they were completely encircled by axis. Private banks accepted everybody's money, just like every global bank did before and after the war. They secretly helped allies - check Campione d'Italia story for example. Thats very far from neutral behavior. And so on. But most people don't want to know facts, they want simple black & white stories. It continues till today - they are officially neutral but look at their moves ie against russia during Ukraine war. Completely aligned with west (well apart from US which has top brass collaborating with their sworn mortal enemy). Look how their army looks like - 100% compatibility with NATO, 0% with russia or anybody else. They picked their side, they just don't boast around it, actions speak more than 1000 words. |
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| ▲ | moomin 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It saw a fair bit of immigration before the war to get there. The war itself obviously helped enrich them by not being in it and also practically zeroed immigration. Immigration continued after the war.
There’s other factors, obviously, like early industrialisation. |
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| ▲ | bluebarbet 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >in Switzerland more than anywhere else, immigration is at the foundation of the country's wealth Such a claim would need terms to be defined, even before justification. Switzerland's mercenary attitude to immigration is well known, yes. I would argue that endogenous factors (history and culture) are far more important in explaining Switzerland's success. Neither natural resources nor immigration are determinative of a country's wealth. See: Japan, which historically has had neither. | |
| ▲ | bsimpson 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | If the referendum passes and the population crosses the threshold, Switzerland may need to remove itself from e.g. the Schengen area. All the remediations mentioned in the referendum are about suspending immigration. | |
| ▲ | jazz9k 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It depends on who is immigrating there. Back then, it may have been people actually looking to make a life for themselves. The issue is that the majority now don't ever learn the language and stay on welfare instead of getting a job. | | |
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| ▲ | bootsmann 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > more people with certain skills (if you're filtering based on that) This is how freedom of movement works, yes, and it's a key reason why our country is so rich. | | |
| ▲ | philipallstar 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | Telemakhos 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The first time I was in Switzerland was 1985, and even then, I would not call it "homogenous." The people at the time spoke French, German, Italian, and Romanisch. Switzerland is an excellent example of the "harmonious" rather than "homogenous": it manages to integrate people from four linguistic groups into a well-ordered society. | | |
| ▲ | rayiner 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | China has 8-10 major dialects that are not mutually intelligible, but many would say that China is pretty homogenous. 90% of the population is classified as "Han Chinese," even though the subgroups are quite visibly different from each other. | |
| ▲ | throwaway85825 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Homogeneous in the modern use of the word. | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Homogeneous in the modern use What does it mean if it includes heterogenous populations from linguistic, historic, religious and even cultural backgrounds? | | |
| ▲ | throwaway85825 an hour ago | parent [-] | | While it's terribly fascinating for linguists it's generally understood that the languages and cultures within Switzerland are more related and generally homogeneous than when compared with for example asiatic language and culture. | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross an hour ago | parent [-] | | > the languages and cultures within Switzerland are more related and generally homogeneous than when compared with for example asiatic language and culture Switzerland speaks languages from the Italic and Germanic clades of PIE [1]. That makes them about as dissimilar as Indo-Iranian and Slavic languages are from each of them. Helvetia is a confederacy specifically because Switzerland has never been particularly homogenous. Homogeneity explains, in part, Nordic and Japanese success, though less and less the former in the modern era. It does not explain Switzerland’s. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language | | |
| ▲ | throwaway85825 an hour ago | parent [-] | | Due to geography Swiss city states were able to maintain their independence and resist incorporation into larger principalities and subsequent empires. The Swiss militia that defended this was the basis for the American 2nd ammendment. Arguably it was the Swiss greater class homogeneity that explains their success. | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross an hour ago | parent [-] | | > Due to geography Swiss city states were able to maintain their independence and resist incorporation into larger principalities and subsequent empires Swiss territory has been part of, variously, the Roman Empire, various Germanic kingdoms, the Carolingian Empire, the HRE and Napoleonic France. Swiss independence was really only enshrined at the Congress of Vienna, I believe at the courtesy of Metternich. Of Austria-Hungary. > Swiss militia that defended this was the basis for the American 2nd ammendment Source? > the Swiss greater class homogeneity Yes, Switzerland was universally poor and started becoming wealthy with less inequality than other nations in the 1920s. (Note that in the 1910s like 15% of Switzerland was foreign born.) The homogeneity pitch just doesn’t work for Switzerland. | | |
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| ▲ | tpholland 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Switzerland does not have a homogenous population, and to a reasonable person who has travelled in Switzerland I think this is an insane thing to be defending. A significant proportion of the population (certainly for Europe) do not even share a common first language. Significant proportions sit on different sides of the reformation which is again a big deal for Europe. etc | | |
| ▲ | Avicebron 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Homogeneous isn't likely the correct word. Shared cultural norms and "harmonious" is often more accurately what people describe when the call a country "homogeneous". | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > what people describe when the call a country "homogeneous" The Nordic countries were historically ethnically homogenous. Switzerland has been a multi-ethnic place since like the Helvetii were being picked on by Caesar. |
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| ▲ | Teever 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I think that it's pretty obvious that the user that you're responding to is using the term 'homogenous' as a euphemism for "white" | | |
| ▲ | rayiner an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Man, American politics really invades every online space, doesn't it? This is Europe, where "white" doesn't make sense as a concept. Brexit involved the UK leaving the EU over, among other things, immigration from Poland! Are Polish people "white?" Obviously it's not about "white" versus "non-white." | |
| ▲ | tpholland 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Then they should say white. I'm prepared to give a lot of leeway when conversing with non-native speakers but as somebody who has grown up within a culture that understands that the concept of cultural homogeneity cannot refer to native speakers of non-mutually-comprehensible languages or historically antithetical religious positions, if they choose to use the word in novel ways that's their problem not mine! | |
| ▲ | philipallstar 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I'm not - not everything is about race. That's a pretty basic lesson that World War 2 taught us, that you should have learned. | | |
| ▲ | tpholland an hour ago | parent [-] | | What did you mean when you said homogenous, given the reality of Switzerland, its history, its civil structure, its languages, and its culture? | | |
| ▲ | philipallstar an hour ago | parent [-] | | I don't know what the exact word is - I wouldn't quite say "culture", as there are clearly different cultural backgrounds at work, but just as with Canada mixing French and Anglo traditions, there is a generally homogenous Western European metaculture at work, premised on the Enlightenment, classical liberalism, the rule of law (and equality of opportunity under the law), freedom of religion, the importance of education and hard work, private property, and personal responsibility. | | |
| ▲ | tpholland 27 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Ah, a generally homogenous Western European metaculture then, like that Canada! Thanks for engaging with the specifics of the Swiss Enlightenment you can keep the change | | | |
| ▲ | 38 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | abdullahkhalids an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > it provides an incredibly valuable and trustworthy banking service to the world For most people in developing countries, Swiss banks are places where politicians and rich people stash ill-gotten wealth (corruption, crime, etc), because they know the banks will never let the legal system get back the money. | |
| ▲ | throwaway67678 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Switzerland, homogeneous? Is this some kind of joke? | |
| ▲ | wat10000 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I get hard working and low crime, but why does homogeneity make a country rich? | | |
| ▲ | kuerbel 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It's not even true, 40% of the population has an immigrant background. And as for low crime, yes, blue collar crime. Please don't ask about white collar crime, we don't talk about that here... | |
| ▲ | netsharc 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's a dog whistle for "if a country's racial identity remained pure everything would've been fine". | | |
| ▲ | philipallstar 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It's nothing to do with race. You need to gain the mindset that not everything is about race. | | |
| ▲ | wat10000 38 minutes ago | parent [-] | | If it’s nothing to do with race, then why is a country with four official languages being called “homogeneous”? | | |
| ▲ | rayiner 30 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Why do people say China is “homogenous” when people speaking Cantonese can’t understand people speaking Mandarin? It’s because those groups of people have been part of a common polity off and on since the Qin dynasty more than 2,000 years ago. Similarly, Switzerland has been a thing, in various forms, since French and Italian were considered different dialects of vulgar Latin. The groups that speak the four different languages nonetheless share 800+ years of common political and social history. |
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| ▲ | wat10000 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It’s a bullhorn, not a dog whistle. I just hate this bullshit being stated as if it was a basic fact everyone agrees with. | | |
| ▲ | philipallstar 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | People talking about dog whistles constantly state that as if it's fact, instead of them just being race-brained. | |
| ▲ | WarmWash 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Because of Japan. A rigid culture and tradition can obviously carry a lot of weight, but usually comes with intense racism as well. |
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| ▲ | bluebarbet 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Because it favors social cohesion and social trust, which are strongly correlated with economic success. Americans are reflexively thinking of race, but that's entirely incidental and basically irrelevant. | | |
| ▲ | tpholland 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | But Switzerland emphatically does not have a homogenous population. It has an exceptionally diverse population, linguistically, religiously and culturally. And yet as you say it has an exceptional record when it comes to cohesion and social trust. Living the dream! | | |
| ▲ | rayiner an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | I’d point out two things: 1) While Switzerland combines several ethnicities and cultures, the fusion dates back almost a millennium. The Old Swiss Confederacy arose in the 14th century, before Italian, French, and Romansh were even recognized as separate languages. 2) The Swiss federal structure goes to great lengths to give autonomy to the distinct groups. So it’s not accurate to say that Switzerland is “homogenous” in the same way Denmark is homogenous. But it’s not like Switzerland’s Italian-speaking population grew from nearly 0% to the current 8% over a period of a few decades. There is a common umbrella identity encompassing these groups that dates back a long time. | | |
| ▲ | tpholland 10 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I quite agree. It's a diversity of peoples who have developed an umbrella identity that dates back a long time. And it's been very successful! They have a successful federal structure; much more so than more recent confederacies referred to by others in this thread (Belgium, Canada). |
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| ▲ | bluebarbet 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The social cohesion of Switzerland is mainly within the linguistic communities. Many Francophone Swiss hardly speak a word of German (just as their Belgian counterparts don't speak Dutch). And a large proportion of Switzerland's "diverse" immigrants are in fact from just across the country's borders (particularly Germans). "Diversity" is not what explains Switzerland's wealth. | | |
| ▲ | tpholland an hour ago | parent [-] | | Absolutely agree, and of course I would never argue that "diversity" explains Switzerland's wealth. It occupied a pretty unique and interesting place during the Reformation, and maybe there is something there. But the idea that either diversity or homogeneity can explain economic performance is obviously not bourne out by any serious examples. I was thinking about Belgium (and also thinking about Harry Lime) whilst typing away--it seems a bit of a counterexample to Switzerland where the same linguistic and cultural diversity within a country can lead to very different outcomes and senses. Nobody would ever write "Il n'y a pas de Suisse" as Destrée wrote "Il n'y a pas de Belges"--long history vs short history and as always the Reformation upheavals explain it perhaps |
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| ▲ | philipallstar 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Can you list the statistics that demonstrate the exceptionally diverse population? | | |
| ▲ | tpholland an hour ago | parent [-] | | Absolutely! Although I would have thought it was common knowledge. 62% of the Swiss population have German as their main language, 22.7% French, 8% Italian, and 0.5% Romansch. This is an extraordinary level of diversity for a European country, and as other commentators have noted it isn't like there's a lingua franca: a large proportion of Swiss do not speak the languages used by other groups fluently--for example, 85-87% of Swiss don't speak French at all! This should be quite straightforward evidence regardless of your cultural assumptions, but many people may not be aware of the impact and cultural importance of the Reformation in Europe, which in general meant that nations ended up with a state religion that was either Catholic or Protestant. Switzerland was pretty exceptional and in the 16th Century (which is the important period here) the population was split pretty much 50/50. This religious diversity is pretty important to its history as well as to wider European history. | | |
| ▲ | philipallstar 30 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | I wouldn't call that extraordinary diversity - these are all Western European. I note you've added a new caveat "for a European country" as a get out of jail free card, but this "diversity" is extremely long-standing and, still, exists within Western Europe, the cradle of a hilariously disproportionate percentage of all of the social, civic, scientific, and technological advances the world has ever seen. | |
| ▲ | bluebarbet an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Interesting statistics and I for one will back up your analysis. But the Alpine woolly mammoth in the room is that, in 21st-century Europe, "cultural and religious diversity" does not, for most people, imply a heterogeneity of Germanophones and Francophones, or Protestants and Catholics. It means something else. | | |
| ▲ | tpholland 34 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Sorry if cultural history and facts are a bit dull. I don't really want to argue about *something else* though; let's leave that to the *something else*ists. | |
| ▲ | wizzwizz4 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Can you say the quiet part out loud, please? I'm having trouble hearing what "something else" is meant to convey. |
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| ▲ | 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | bootsmann 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > homogenous population Not even gonna comment on this nonsense. | | | |
| ▲ | mschuster91 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > only spends 16% of GDP on public welfare It's easy to not have to spend much money on public welfare when there is a constant stream of foreign money floating in. | | |
| ▲ | philipallstar 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That doesn't make much sense. Do you think foreign money is directly paid to people who would otherwise be welfare recipients? Is there anything foreign money can't do, would you say? | | |
| ▲ | mschuster91 an hour ago | parent [-] | | When foreign money flows into the economy, it generates jobs, and because there is so much of it, these jobs can be well paid. And when you got a population that has a low unemployment rate and high wages, you consequently need to spend less money on social welfare. |
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| ▲ | 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | TacticalCoder an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Because isn't the whole theory that people are the same? If so, you're just adding new people who are exactly the same as the existing people. That's a very dumb theory. People cannot just be exchanged: you cannot take say, 60 million people out of Bangladesh, put them in Japan, and expect Japan to stay the same. Just as you cannot take 60 million Japanese, put them in Bangladesh, and expect Bangladesh to stay the name. That's a fact. But I could give a shitload of historical examples too... Here's one: when white and black people arrived in the americas, there was still cannibalism taking place in both northern and southern america. The americas had neither white nor black people. Today there's no cannibalism anymore and there are not many kids sacrifices happening in the US to please Inca/Maya gods anymore either. A slightly more reasonable theory is that if you import people through immigration at a reasonable rate, you can assimilate those people. For example for a long time in Europe female genital mutilation wasn't a thing anymore. Now sadly due to mass migration, ask any ob-gyn doctor in western Europe what he sees and what kind of act he has to do: like re-stitching hymens to pretend the women-to-be-married are virgins (because, yes, there are patriarchal cultures where men are going to inspect a woman's hymen to make sure she's a virgin). People just live in a fantasy land in their heads: there are 300 million women alive, today, who've been genitally mutilated (that's a very sizeable percentage of all the women out there). What's actually ongoing is weirder and shittier than most people realize. I say good for Switzerland to curb immigration a bit. People may be not dissimilar but cultures certainly are. |
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