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rayiner 3 hours ago

[flagged]

stymaar 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Nobody in Switzerland is worried about the population growing due to birthrate. This referendum is about stopping immigration (even though in Switzerland more than anywhere else, immigration is at the foundation of the country's wealth).

rayiner 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> (even though in Switzerland more than anywhere else, immigration is at the foundation of the country's wealth).

Is that true? Switzerland's foreign-born population was under 5% around WWII. Wasn't Switzerland already a rich country by then?

JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Wasn't Switzerland already a rich country by then?

In 1940, Switzerland’s GDP/capita was 2.9x [EDIT: the world average]; it peaked at 4.4x in 2000 and is now 3.8x [1]. (It increases linearly, long term, from the mid 20s until 2000.)

Relative to Western Europe, Switzerland was 1.6x in 1950, about the same as today.

[1] https://www.rug.nl/ggdc/historicaldevelopment/maddison/relea...

ashdksnndck 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I feel like I have to read this backwards to perhaps understand it. Is 2.9x the multiplier of Swiss GDP/capita vs the Western Europe average in 1940?

JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Sorry, edited for clarity.

2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
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tempay 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In 1910 the foreign-born population was 14.7% and the drop around WWII was caused by other factors.

Much of the industrialisation and banking industry was driven by immigrants. Arguably the wealth of today is the product of managing to avoid the worst of WWII and profiting from Switzerland's "neutrality" but that's an entire conversation by itself.

kakacik 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Well they were neutral, its just most folks, even otherwise smart ones, don't like true neutral behavior if it doesn't actually favor their side, hence such 'smart' snarky remarks I can see all the time, by people feeling they know history. Swiss accepted everybody, hundreds of thousands of refugees too, some parts even when it became obvious they will all face starvation since they were completely encircled by axis. Private banks accepted everybody's money, just like every global bank did before and after the war.

They secretly helped allies - check Campione d'Italia story for example. Thats very far from neutral behavior. And so on. But most people don't want to know facts, they want simple black & white stories.

It continues till today - they are officially neutral but look at their moves ie against russia during Ukraine war. Completely aligned with west (well apart from US which has top brass collaborating with their sworn mortal enemy). Look how their army looks like - 100% compatibility with NATO, 0% with russia or anybody else. They picked their side, they just don't boast around it, actions speak more than 1000 words.

moomin 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It saw a fair bit of immigration before the war to get there. The war itself obviously helped enrich them by not being in it and also practically zeroed immigration. Immigration continued after the war. There’s other factors, obviously, like early industrialisation.

bluebarbet 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>in Switzerland more than anywhere else, immigration is at the foundation of the country's wealth

Such a claim would need terms to be defined, even before justification. Switzerland's mercenary attitude to immigration is well known, yes. I would argue that endogenous factors (history and culture) are far more important in explaining Switzerland's success. Neither natural resources nor immigration are determinative of a country's wealth. See: Japan, which historically has had neither.

bsimpson 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If the referendum passes and the population crosses the threshold, Switzerland may need to remove itself from e.g. the Schengen area. All the remediations mentioned in the referendum are about suspending immigration.

jazz9k 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It depends on who is immigrating there. Back then, it may have been people actually looking to make a life for themselves.

The issue is that the majority now don't ever learn the language and stay on welfare instead of getting a job.

markdown 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I bet you think they eat the dogs and cats too, eh?

prmoustache 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

source?

lejalv 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Citation needed.

bootsmann 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> more people with certain skills (if you're filtering based on that)

This is how freedom of movement works, yes, and it's a key reason why our country is so rich.

philipallstar 3 hours ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

Telemakhos 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The first time I was in Switzerland was 1985, and even then, I would not call it "homogenous." The people at the time spoke French, German, Italian, and Romanisch. Switzerland is an excellent example of the "harmonious" rather than "homogenous": it manages to integrate people from four linguistic groups into a well-ordered society.

rayiner 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

China has 8-10 major dialects that are not mutually intelligible, but many would say that China is pretty homogenous. 90% of the population is classified as "Han Chinese," even though the subgroups are quite visibly different from each other.

throwaway85825 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Homogeneous in the modern use of the word.

JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> Homogeneous in the modern use

What does it mean if it includes heterogenous populations from linguistic, historic, religious and even cultural backgrounds?

throwaway85825 an hour ago | parent [-]

While it's terribly fascinating for linguists it's generally understood that the languages and cultures within Switzerland are more related and generally homogeneous than when compared with for example asiatic language and culture.

JumpCrisscross an hour ago | parent [-]

> the languages and cultures within Switzerland are more related and generally homogeneous than when compared with for example asiatic language and culture

Switzerland speaks languages from the Italic and Germanic clades of PIE [1]. That makes them about as dissimilar as Indo-Iranian and Slavic languages are from each of them.

Helvetia is a confederacy specifically because Switzerland has never been particularly homogenous. Homogeneity explains, in part, Nordic and Japanese success, though less and less the former in the modern era. It does not explain Switzerland’s.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language

throwaway85825 an hour ago | parent [-]

Due to geography Swiss city states were able to maintain their independence and resist incorporation into larger principalities and subsequent empires. The Swiss militia that defended this was the basis for the American 2nd ammendment. Arguably it was the Swiss greater class homogeneity that explains their success.

JumpCrisscross an hour ago | parent [-]

> Due to geography Swiss city states were able to maintain their independence and resist incorporation into larger principalities and subsequent empires

Swiss territory has been part of, variously, the Roman Empire, various Germanic kingdoms, the Carolingian Empire, the HRE and Napoleonic France. Swiss independence was really only enshrined at the Congress of Vienna, I believe at the courtesy of Metternich. Of Austria-Hungary.

> Swiss militia that defended this was the basis for the American 2nd ammendment

Source?

> the Swiss greater class homogeneity

Yes, Switzerland was universally poor and started becoming wealthy with less inequality than other nations in the 1920s. (Note that in the 1910s like 15% of Switzerland was foreign born.)

The homogeneity pitch just doesn’t work for Switzerland.

throwaway85825 an hour ago | parent [-]

>source

Arguably common knowledge but if you must. https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=...

tpholland 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Switzerland does not have a homogenous population, and to a reasonable person who has travelled in Switzerland I think this is an insane thing to be defending. A significant proportion of the population (certainly for Europe) do not even share a common first language. Significant proportions sit on different sides of the reformation which is again a big deal for Europe. etc

Avicebron 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Homogeneous isn't likely the correct word. Shared cultural norms and "harmonious" is often more accurately what people describe when the call a country "homogeneous".

JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> what people describe when the call a country "homogeneous"

The Nordic countries were historically ethnically homogenous. Switzerland has been a multi-ethnic place since like the Helvetii were being picked on by Caesar.

Teever 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I think that it's pretty obvious that the user that you're responding to is using the term 'homogenous' as a euphemism for "white"

rayiner 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Man, American politics really invades every online space, doesn't it? This is Europe, where "white" doesn't make sense as a concept. Brexit involved the UK leaving the EU over, among other things, immigration from Poland! Are Polish people "white?" Obviously it's not about "white" versus "non-white."

tpholland 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Then they should say white. I'm prepared to give a lot of leeway when conversing with non-native speakers but as somebody who has grown up within a culture that understands that the concept of cultural homogeneity cannot refer to native speakers of non-mutually-comprehensible languages or historically antithetical religious positions, if they choose to use the word in novel ways that's their problem not mine!

philipallstar 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I'm not - not everything is about race. That's a pretty basic lesson that World War 2 taught us, that you should have learned.

tpholland 2 hours ago | parent [-]

What did you mean when you said homogenous, given the reality of Switzerland, its history, its civil structure, its languages, and its culture?

philipallstar an hour ago | parent [-]

I don't know what the exact word is - I wouldn't quite say "culture", as there are clearly different cultural backgrounds at work, but just as with Canada mixing French and Anglo traditions, there is a generally homogenous Western European metaculture at work, premised on the Enlightenment, classical liberalism, the rule of law (and equality of opportunity under the law), freedom of religion, the importance of education and hard work, private property, and personal responsibility.

tpholland 28 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Ah, a generally homogenous Western European metaculture then, like that Canada! Thanks for engaging with the specifics of the Swiss Enlightenment you can keep the change

8 minutes ago | parent [-]
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39 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]
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abdullahkhalids an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> it provides an incredibly valuable and trustworthy banking service to the world

For most people in developing countries, Swiss banks are places where politicians and rich people stash ill-gotten wealth (corruption, crime, etc), because they know the banks will never let the legal system get back the money.

throwaway67678 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Switzerland, homogeneous? Is this some kind of joke?

wat10000 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I get hard working and low crime, but why does homogeneity make a country rich?

kuerbel 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It's not even true, 40% of the population has an immigrant background. And as for low crime, yes, blue collar crime. Please don't ask about white collar crime, we don't talk about that here...

netsharc 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's a dog whistle for "if a country's racial identity remained pure everything would've been fine".

philipallstar 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It's nothing to do with race. You need to gain the mindset that not everything is about race.

wat10000 39 minutes ago | parent [-]

If it’s nothing to do with race, then why is a country with four official languages being called “homogeneous”?

rayiner 32 minutes ago | parent [-]

Why do people say China is “homogenous” when people speaking Cantonese can’t understand people speaking Mandarin? It’s because those groups of people have been part of a common polity off and on since the Qin dynasty more than 2,000 years ago.

Similarly, Switzerland has been a thing, in various forms, since French and Italian were considered different dialects of vulgar Latin. The groups that speak the four different languages nonetheless share 800+ years of common political and social history.

wat10000 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It’s a bullhorn, not a dog whistle. I just hate this bullshit being stated as if it was a basic fact everyone agrees with.

philipallstar 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

People talking about dog whistles constantly state that as if it's fact, instead of them just being race-brained.

WarmWash 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Because of Japan. A rigid culture and tradition can obviously carry a lot of weight, but usually comes with intense racism as well.

bluebarbet 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Because it favors social cohesion and social trust, which are strongly correlated with economic success. Americans are reflexively thinking of race, but that's entirely incidental and basically irrelevant.

tpholland 2 hours ago | parent [-]

But Switzerland emphatically does not have a homogenous population. It has an exceptionally diverse population, linguistically, religiously and culturally. And yet as you say it has an exceptional record when it comes to cohesion and social trust. Living the dream!

rayiner an hour ago | parent | next [-]

I’d point out two things:

1) While Switzerland combines several ethnicities and cultures, the fusion dates back almost a millennium. The Old Swiss Confederacy arose in the 14th century, before Italian, French, and Romansh were even recognized as separate languages.

2) The Swiss federal structure goes to great lengths to give autonomy to the distinct groups.

So it’s not accurate to say that Switzerland is “homogenous” in the same way Denmark is homogenous. But it’s not like Switzerland’s Italian-speaking population grew from nearly 0% to the current 8% over a period of a few decades. There is a common umbrella identity encompassing these groups that dates back a long time.

tpholland 11 minutes ago | parent [-]

I quite agree. It's a diversity of peoples who have developed an umbrella identity that dates back a long time. And it's been very successful!

They have a successful federal structure; much more so than more recent confederacies referred to by others in this thread (Belgium, Canada).

bluebarbet 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The social cohesion of Switzerland is mainly within the linguistic communities. Many Francophone Swiss hardly speak a word of German (just as their Belgian counterparts don't speak Dutch). And a large proportion of Switzerland's "diverse" immigrants are in fact from just across the country's borders (particularly Germans). "Diversity" is not what explains Switzerland's wealth.

tpholland an hour ago | parent [-]

Absolutely agree, and of course I would never argue that "diversity" explains Switzerland's wealth. It occupied a pretty unique and interesting place during the Reformation, and maybe there is something there. But the idea that either diversity or homogeneity can explain economic performance is obviously not bourne out by any serious examples. I was thinking about Belgium (and also thinking about Harry Lime) whilst typing away--it seems a bit of a counterexample to Switzerland where the same linguistic and cultural diversity within a country can lead to very different outcomes and senses. Nobody would ever write "Il n'y a pas de Suisse" as Destrée wrote "Il n'y a pas de Belges"--long history vs short history and as always the Reformation upheavals explain it perhaps

philipallstar 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Can you list the statistics that demonstrate the exceptionally diverse population?

tpholland an hour ago | parent [-]

Absolutely! Although I would have thought it was common knowledge. 62% of the Swiss population have German as their main language, 22.7% French, 8% Italian, and 0.5% Romansch. This is an extraordinary level of diversity for a European country, and as other commentators have noted it isn't like there's a lingua franca: a large proportion of Swiss do not speak the languages used by other groups fluently--for example, 85-87% of Swiss don't speak French at all!

This should be quite straightforward evidence regardless of your cultural assumptions, but many people may not be aware of the impact and cultural importance of the Reformation in Europe, which in general meant that nations ended up with a state religion that was either Catholic or Protestant. Switzerland was pretty exceptional and in the 16th Century (which is the important period here) the population was split pretty much 50/50. This religious diversity is pretty important to its history as well as to wider European history.

philipallstar 31 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

I wouldn't call that extraordinary diversity - these are all Western European. I note you've added a new caveat "for a European country" as a get out of jail free card, but this "diversity" is extremely long-standing and, still, exists within Western Europe, the cradle of a hilariously disproportionate percentage of all of the social, civic, scientific, and technological advances the world has ever seen.

tpholland a minute ago | parent [-]

OK, you probably have a point. As they say, once you've seen the La Tène cultural package....

bluebarbet an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Interesting statistics and I for one will back up your analysis. But the Alpine woolly mammoth in the room is that, in 21st-century Europe, "cultural and religious diversity" does not, for most people, imply a heterogeneity of Germanophones and Francophones, or Protestants and Catholics. It means something else.

tpholland 36 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Sorry if cultural history and facts are a bit dull. I don't really want to argue about *something else* though; let's leave that to the *something else*ists.

wizzwizz4 an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Can you say the quiet part out loud, please? I'm having trouble hearing what "something else" is meant to convey.

2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
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bootsmann 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> homogenous population

Not even gonna comment on this nonsense.

philipallstar 2 hours ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

mschuster91 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> only spends 16% of GDP on public welfare

It's easy to not have to spend much money on public welfare when there is a constant stream of foreign money floating in.

philipallstar 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

That doesn't make much sense. Do you think foreign money is directly paid to people who would otherwise be welfare recipients? Is there anything foreign money can't do, would you say?

mschuster91 an hour ago | parent [-]

When foreign money flows into the economy, it generates jobs, and because there is so much of it, these jobs can be well paid. And when you got a population that has a low unemployment rate and high wages, you consequently need to spend less money on social welfare.

2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
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TacticalCoder an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

> Because isn't the whole theory that people are the same? If so, you're just adding new people who are exactly the same as the existing people.

That's a very dumb theory. People cannot just be exchanged: you cannot take say, 60 million people out of Bangladesh, put them in Japan, and expect Japan to stay the same. Just as you cannot take 60 million Japanese, put them in Bangladesh, and expect Bangladesh to stay the name.

That's a fact. But I could give a shitload of historical examples too... Here's one: when white and black people arrived in the americas, there was still cannibalism taking place in both northern and southern america. The americas had neither white nor black people. Today there's no cannibalism anymore and there are not many kids sacrifices happening in the US to please Inca/Maya gods anymore either.

A slightly more reasonable theory is that if you import people through immigration at a reasonable rate, you can assimilate those people. For example for a long time in Europe female genital mutilation wasn't a thing anymore. Now sadly due to mass migration, ask any ob-gyn doctor in western Europe what he sees and what kind of act he has to do: like re-stitching hymens to pretend the women-to-be-married are virgins (because, yes, there are patriarchal cultures where men are going to inspect a woman's hymen to make sure she's a virgin).

People just live in a fantasy land in their heads: there are 300 million women alive, today, who've been genitally mutilated (that's a very sizeable percentage of all the women out there). What's actually ongoing is weirder and shittier than most people realize.

I say good for Switzerland to curb immigration a bit.

People may be not dissimilar but cultures certainly are.