| ▲ | Canada to order military plane fleet from Sweden in shift from US suppliers(theguardian.com) |
| 154 points by tosh 3 hours ago | 69 comments |
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| ▲ | thegrim33 6 minutes ago | parent | next [-] |
| So, how this propaganda works is by presenting a false picture of reality by selective reporting. Any time someone doesn't choose the US or moves away from the US, etc., or any time events can be remotely interpreted in that way, those stories will get submitted to and raised up to the front page of HN. Any time someone DOES choose the US, or moves to the US, you will never, ever, ever, see a story about it on HN. They won't get submitted, and if they do, they won't get upvoted. You only get shown the negative news that helps their agenda, and you never get shown the positive news that would hinder the picture of reality they're trying to place in your mind. |
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| ▲ | petcat 2 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | > Any time someone DOES choose the US There are 1,000 of those everyday. They get caught by the spam filter because it would pollute the front page. The ones that don't choose USA are somewhat interesting, so they get through. We want to see the 1% and talk about those. | |
| ▲ | yoavm a minute ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The essence of the this story is still true: many non-Americans are choosing non-US tech/products/services whenever they're faced with an alternative. Living in Sweden I see it around me all the time, and this is something no one even thought about two years ago. | |
| ▲ | toasty228 4 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That's the first stage of grief, four to go | | | |
| ▲ | pseudony a minute ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yes, it is all a conspiracy. Or. Have you considered that the erstwhile closest military ally of the US increasingly diversifying AWAY from US programs actually is pretty noteworthy.
You have had canadians boycotting US products, cancel trips to the US, their PM encouraging elbows up attitude and delivering a pretty noteworthy speech in Davos about charting a course for middle powers and you think it’s business as usual? | |
| ▲ | lysace 3 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | HN is accessible from almost the entire world. Your US-centric bias is a bit weird. |
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| ▲ | khriss an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I can understand why this change happened. Even if American equipment is superior, there is a lot of value to not depending on a supposed 'ally' which * Arbitrarily slapped high tariffs on all goods from Canada while exempting Russia and Belarus. * Threatened to take over the country by force. * Officially suspended the Permanent Joint Board on Defense between US and Canada because of criticism of US foreign policy by the Canadian PM |
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| ▲ | daneel_w 27 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | > "Even if American equipment is superior ..." To address the article's context, is the E-3 Sentry superior to the Erieye/GlobalEye? | | |
| ▲ | nickff 12 minutes ago | parent [-] | | The comparable aircraft is the more modern E-7 Wedgetail, which has many features that are superior for Canada's use case (notably including range and NORAD integration). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_E-7_Wedgetail Canada has unfortunately been in conflict with Boeing since before either of Trump's terms, originally triggered by Boeing's trade complaints regarding Bombardier's government subsidies. |
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| ▲ | 866-RON-0-FEZ an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | We call this confirmation bias. The Saab is likely cheaper to operate as it's a smaller plane and Canada only has to patrol its northern border. | | |
| ▲ | danesparza 23 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | "We call this confirmation bias". I'm genuinely curious to know what you think the author's pre-existing beliefs are. You seem to have a few of your own: "Canada only has to patrol its northern border" | | |
| ▲ | jsLavaGoat 18 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | You're not curious. You know what it is. Why is it so hard to say? It's "America bad." And fine, buy all of your military hardware elsewhere. When will you be leaving NORAD and NATO then? Of course you won't. So this is performative. | | | |
| ▲ | 866-RON-0-FEZ 14 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | > You seem to have a few of your own: "Canada only has to patrol its northern border" Another belief I hold is that you didn't care to click the link or read past the title because it literally states "aircraft to patrol Arctic territory" in bold font in the sub-heading. You're being deliberately obtuse with nothing constructive to add to this discussion. |
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| ▲ | mikeyouse 23 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Canada only has to patrol its northern border. At what point on this current trajectory in the US would that change... mostly facetiously, but not entirely.. | | |
| ▲ | petcat 17 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Canada would only have to patrol its southern Alberta border /s No coincidence that Albertans are sparking up the seceding issue again. When 10% of the population produces nearly 20% of the country's GDP it's a breeding ground for contempt. And it also seems like Albertans are the butt of a lot of jokes from the other Canadians anyway. I'm sure this US government would love to see an "independent" Alberta. | | |
| ▲ | rubayeet 8 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | This is false. Alberta is NOT the economic engine of Canada, that’s a huge misconception of a group of Canadians (mostly Albertans) [0] [0] https://youtu.be/5lSJpqA8RU4?si=fxwKpUFFKO7gK63E | | |
| ▲ | cmrdporcupine 2 minutes ago | parent [-] | | You're right but you should cite something other than the CBC, since it will just be immediately dismissed by the biased as biased. Alberta is very important economically. I'm from there. Ontario (I live there) and Quebec and BC are also massively important. And fanning the flames of disinformation and playing grievance politics to make Albertans feel discriminated against has become an extremely serious problem. Wab Kinew was very eloquent on this topic yesterday. |
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| ▲ | squigz 14 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | > And it also seems like Albertans are the butt of a lot of jokes from the other Canadians anyway. This is hardly my experience as a Canadian. They're not Newfoundlanders, for crying out loud... |
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| ▲ | munk-a 35 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Even if American equipment is superior I'd mention that whether a piece of tech can beat another one on one is a consideration but a larger concern is how maintainable your fleet is. Canada is specifically moving to grow ties with the EU (and has joined their defense industry network) which really incentivizes having a fleet that is a similar makeup to other European countries. The tariffs and international unpredictability of the US is one motivator - but growing closer to EU markets is also a specific focus of the Carney government. The current Trump administration isn't even the only rationale for this - in 2017 the US imposed extremely heavy tariffs on Bombardier that bankrupted the majority of the corporation. | |
| ▲ | cmrdporcupine 14 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | You missed the absolutely huge one: that the plane it's based around is a Bombardier aircraft manufactured here in Canada. And in general this is how Saab has tried to court us -- by making promises (how real is unclear) to bring manufacturing jobs to Canada to build things. That is something the US has not done, will not do, and most importantly cannot do under Trump/Bissent/etc. Canada is very unlikely to be invaded, so the actual military effectiveness / superiority is only one factor. Reducing unemployment and enhancing our manufacturing sector is as or more important. | | |
| ▲ | lysace 9 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > Canada is very unlikely to be invaded Except from the south. | | |
| ▲ | cmrdporcupine 7 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Or, as it turns out, from within. (Looking at you, Danielle Smith). But yes you're right. The only times we've been invaded were from that direction. |
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| ▲ | hermitcrab 5 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| In related news: https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2026/05/21/italy-moves-to... I guess insulting and threatening your allies isn't great for arms sales. |
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| ▲ | hnburnsy an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Boeing and Airbus have tremendous backlogs... >As of March 31st, 2026, Airbus reported a commercial aircraft backlog of 9,031 aircraft. Based on the company’s 2026 delivery target of 870 aircraft, this represents approximately 10.4 years of production coverage. >Boeing’s commercial backlog stood at approximately 6,719 aircraft at the end of March. Using Forecast International’s production estimates, Boeing’s backlog equates to roughly 10.1 years of production coverage. https://flightplan.forecastinternational.com/2026/04/14/airb... |
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| ▲ | xattt 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It helps that the base plane is built in Canada, and that the PM made commitments to the Swedish king in November 2025. |
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| ▲ | kspacewalk2 an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Worth noting that the base plane for one of the US-based contenders, the Aeris X by L3Harris, would also be the same Bombardier Global 6500 business jet. | |
| ▲ | 866-RON-0-FEZ an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Or, consider that the smaller Saab better fits the mission profile for Canada, and may be cheaper to operate, all the while The Guardian is furiously beating off trying to turn this into a bigger story than it really is. | | |
| ▲ | xethos 38 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Cheaper to operate and mission-fit (debatable) is one thing, but the real question is: "Would this have happened without the US president's antics?" | | |
| ▲ | munk-a 29 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Without the second election of Trump? It's likely. Canada's aircraft industry got majorly burned by the US in 2017 during his first administration and Biden didn't significantly reverse the impact in any way. | | |
| ▲ | 866-RON-0-FEZ 19 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > Canada's aircraft industry got majorly burned by the US in 2017 Canada's aircraft industry has been on life support since long before Trump took office, having been forced to partner up with China. The C-Series was divested to Airbus, the Dash 8 isn't produced anymore, and all Bombardier proper produces are biz-jets. |
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| ▲ | jerlam 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The US doesn't even use the Wedgetail, and has cancelled and then un-cancelled it: https://aerospaceglobalnews.com/news/pentagon-e-7-wedgetail-... |
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| ▲ | Bender 12 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Awesome, the more suppliers, sources and competition the better. Might this bring prices down and quality up? |
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| ▲ | ge96 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Bring back the Arrow |
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| ▲ | winfredJa 6 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Trump's damage to the USA will be studied extensively in the future. |
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| ▲ | bigyabai 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Saab makes excellent AWACS systems, this strikes me as a good choice. It'll be interesting to see if Canada also invests in the Gripen long-term, as a replacement for the aging CF-18 fleet. |
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| ▲ | jmclnx an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > as the country seeks to reduce reliance on US defense firms I wonder why ? I think we may be seeing a lot more of this. Maybe we will get to see what US Corporations value more, real paying customers or large tax cuts w/stock buy back curtsy of US Gov Monetary Support. |
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| ▲ | moltar an hour ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Now the interesting question to me is why is that a country with a tenth of population can have car, truck and military plane manufacturing yet Canada can’t, even with virtually all resources for inputs, including energy can’t. |
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| ▲ | petcat an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Canada has many issues. First and foremost, their entire economy is basically 3 mineral extraction industries stacked on top of each other in a trench coat. They are also (unfortunate?) to share a border with USA and be party to NAFTA. This makes it trivial for educated, professional Canadians to work in the US on a TN visa indefinitely. We know that the doctor and nurse brain-drain from Canada to the US has been ongoing for decades. But it's actually every industry since US firms pay 2-3x more than equivalent Canadian firms. The reality is that Canadians get very good, tax-payer subsidized educations and then immediately go to the US to work for 10+ years and only return later when they need to start drawing on the Canadian social services for things like healthcare and family care. And Canada itself got none of the benefits of that workforce in between. I saw a figure recently that the US issued an all-time-high 800,000 TN admissions to Canadians in 2016. And then in 2023 it surged to nearly 1.3 million. | | |
| ▲ | kashunstva 44 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | > The reality is that Canadians get very good, tax-payer subsidized educations and then immediately go to the US to work for 10+ years and only return later when they need to start drawing on the Canadian social services for things like healthcare and family care. You write this declaratively as if it describes a typical or representative case. In the 11 years I’ve lived in Canada, this isn’t representative of what I see. The direction of migration of medical doctors likewise shows signs of reversal. I’m a physician and my wife is a surgeon. We left the U.S. over a decade ago and are constantly receiving inquiries from US physicians about immigration. | | |
| ▲ | petcat 41 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > We left the U.S. over a decade ago I'm assuming you were educated in Canada, and then you worked in the US (but now you don't)? |
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| ▲ | turtlesdown11 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | > I saw a figure recently that the US issued an all-time-high 800,000 TN visas to Canadians in 2016. And then in 2023 it surged to nearly 1.3 million. This citation is an order of magnitude off. The US doesn't really track/release visa numbers well, what you're citing might be the number of individual entries using a TN visa - visaholders go back and forth, it's not the total number of visa holders. DHS estimates 130k Canadian visaholders in country in 2024. https://ohss.dhs.gov/topics/immigration/nonimmigrant/populat... Canada has 22m workers, so 130k working in the States is nothing like what you're claiming. >their entire economy Resource extraction is about ~10% of GDP, compared to 3-5% in the US and 1-2% in mainland Europe. Scandanvian countries have comparable resource extraction % of GDP. It's hardly the entire economy. It's also diversified resource extraction, it's not dependent on oil, etc. Your claim is overblown. |
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| ▲ | hylaride an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | These are extremely expensive programs that the Swedes have historically been willing to pay to maintain as much neutrality as possible in their defence procurement system. A Saab Gripen has almost the same flyway cost as an F-35 because of manufacturing scale differences (maintenance is far cheaper, though) and the Gripen is far less capable (it is one of the best western fighters if a full blown war happens and your bases are all destroyed, though). Sweden had unique defence requirements due to this that wasn't being met by others. Sweden was forced to take their defence seriously due to their geography and political will. Canada has had an easy ride and when the going got expensive, we cancelled our domestic programs (most famously the arrow, but also a lot of other stuff). | |
| ▲ | toxik an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Sweden does not have a car industry. The fighter jets are a different matter, very strong technical moat and need to prove the system in combat. You can't just start a fighter jet business. | | |
| ▲ | throwa356262 5 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | What do you mean Sweden does not have a car industry? Volvo and Polestar have their HQ in Sweden and huge manufacturing plants. They also develop platforms for some other Gealy brands including Link&co and IIRC also Zeeker. And then there is the Koenigsegg... | |
| ▲ | OakNinja an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Volvo still produces cars in Sweden. Koenigsegg still build their cars in Ängelholm. | | |
| ▲ | danesparza 18 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | The Top Gear enthusiast in me loves that you included Koenigsegg in this conversation. But including a company that hand-builds a handful of hypercars annually in a conversation about the auto industry in Sweden is not the flex you think it is. | |
| ▲ | tredre3 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | But by that metric Canada also has a car industry? Canada builds 1.5M cars annually. |
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| ▲ | michaelscott an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It does with Volvo, although I couldn't say how big it is relative to global industry. Within Europe it's a large player | | | |
| ▲ | Danox an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Sweden had a native car industry they decommissioned themselves, in short, they basically gave up, but they’re not alone Australia, New Zealand did the same and so did Canada, but they’re starting to realize that they were a little bit hasty in giving up…. Then last, but not least the UK basically threw the towel in too on a wide assortment of industries, but they’re now discovering that that was a big mistake. | |
| ▲ | gmueckl an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Why are you discounting Volvo? | |
| ▲ | andrewstuart an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | >> Sweden does not have a car industry. Apart from Volvo, Koenigsegg and Polestar and Scania. Apart from that, you’re right. | | |
| ▲ | ChrisGreenHeur an hour ago | parent [-] | | If Saab wanted to they could spin up a car factory as well. But they are more interested in selling these airplanes the article is about. | | |
| ▲ | Findecanor 5 minutes ago | parent [-] | | BTW, SAAB did produce cars from 1949. General Motors bought 51% of SAAB Automobile in 1990, and it was defunct in 2016. |
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| ▲ | kashunstva 34 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Canada has historically relied on a relatively stable trading relationship with the U.S. That relationship is a shambles. It remains to be seen how Canada retools itself; I imagine that we will see a blend of on-shoring and new trading sources. So it’s less of an issue of “can’t” and more “hasn’t (yet)”. | | |
| ▲ | joering2 29 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Frankly to me the fact Canada is "retooling itself" knowing well that this nightmare should be over in less than 3 years, and most likely next President will be a Democrat, but yet they keep retooling, means their strong (reliable?) assumption is that Trump Administration won't leave the office at all, similar to how Putin stayed in power in what arguingly is a Democratic Country. | | |
| ▲ | celsoazevedo 16 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | This is Trump's second term and MAGA views won't disappear 3 years from now. Even if they assume that there will be a peaceful and lawful transition of power, I can see why they may be planning on the assumption that the "instability" (from their point of view) will continue into the future. | |
| ▲ | SpicyLemonZest 4 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | You're missing some of the history here. Canada's initial free trade integration with the US in the late 80s was controversial at the time, with opponents specifically predicting a slow erosion of sovereignty until one day Canada is forced to subordinate itself to the US. What Trump showed is that that concern was correct, although the erosion was fortunately not yet complete enough to force Canada's hand. The Canadian people don't want to be continually dependent on the goodwill of future US Presidents; they want "Canada should the US" to sound like "Taiwan should join the US" or "France should join the US", an obviously impossible idea that even the most vehement partisans would have to explain away rather than trying to make it happen. |
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| ▲ | tredre3 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Not that it invalidate your point, but Sweden has 1/4 the population of Canada, not 1/10. | |
| ▲ | bawolff an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There are trade offs in all things. Trying to do everything yourself does also have a cost. It is not neccesarily better. | |
| ▲ | soupbowl an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Because Canada has been poorly managed for a long time by all political parties that have been voted in. | |
| ▲ | energy123 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Resources curse | |
| ▲ | llm_nerd an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | We have a larger partner speaking the same language and with a largely synonymous culture and a heavily integrated economy as our neighbour. The moment a Canadian company sees success -- in optics, autos, science, medicine, weaponry, etc. -- it is absorbed by a larger US company and suddenly is no longer Canadian, and in many cases any Canadian operations will usually get choked out. There are few examples where this isn't the outcome. This has happened across Canada for well over a century, across every sphere. And in the process the Canadian input is retconned out of existence and Americans ponder why Canada "doesn't make anything". They post ignorant nonsense about how Canada is resource extraction in a trench coat or similar nonsense. Sweden had nothing like this, and they punch way above their weight class because of this. Though that has been changing, for instance with a Chinese company buying Volvo, etc. The only protection against this is...protectionism, whether explicit controls or implicitly by ownership or funding structures. Canada became a leader in nuclear tech by the nuclear industry basically being government owned. It became a transportation powerhouse by a government owned railway. And so on. Change is afoot. Carney has made significant efforts to stop just sending hundreds of billions to the US and most military procurement will focus on Canadian products and innovation. Which leads to lots of gnashing and screaming by propaganda rags like the US-owned PostMedia (yup, even a lot of our media gets absorbed by the US, at least where it isn't explicitly barred from doing so). | | |
| ▲ | yobbo 31 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > Sweden had nothing like this Not entirely true. AstraZeneca and ABB are examples that remain partly Swedish but many companies were merged into big multinationals and eventually marginalised. |
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