And how many people have the free mental space to manage the charge capacity of their phone?

I plug mine into the charger when I go to bed, and unplug it in the morning when I start my day. I don't have time to think about phone charge levels much beyond that.

EU courts generally frown on such shenanigans.

the galaxy s5 had everything we are told they removed for waterproofing. removable back cover and battery, and a headphone jack

The regulation already mandates an OS upgrade period, but the period depends on how long the manufacturer keeps selling the model: software updates must be provided for five years from the day when the manufacturer stops selling the product. From Annex II B, section 1.2:

> (6) Operating system updates:

> (a) from the date of end of placement on the market to at least 5 years after that date, manufacturers, importers or authorised representatives shall, if they provide security updates, corrective updates or functionality updates to an operating system, make such updates available at no cost for all units of a product model with the same operating system;

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2023/1670/oj

There's some weasel wording there ("if they provide ..."), so I'm curious how the courts are going to interpret that clause.

Why only one decade? I’m still running a 2012 Mac mini. Apple stopped updating Mac OS some time ago, but there are plenty of alternatives that can run on the bare metal. Hardware makers should be required to provide support for the life of the device (defined by customers still using the device), or provide a reasonable way to install 3rd party OS.

The point is it's doable (and it was doable long before that. See the S5.)

>Unfortunately it is from 2022, meaning no OS upgrades.

I like how you didn't even bother checking if that was true.

It's receiving monthly updates: https://security.samsungmobile.com/workScope.smsb

Phones should be like PCs - they give you the hardware, and you figure out what to install on it. Unfortunately Linux imo is partially to blame here - if they decided to do a stable driver ABI (don't hate me, this was the norm outside Linux and open source OSes), you could easily separate the OS and drivers and update the m separately.

So, they have an XCover 7 now - with similar specs.

Also, they committed to a rather long support cycle for the xcover6 (5 years I think?) - I have one and it is still going strong. I've replaced the battery twice - not because I desperately needed to, but... why not. They are cheap, and I use the older ones still as backup battery packs since they are fast to swap in.

I think the idea behind parent comment: it's possible to have these features and have a removable battery.

>Unfortunately it is from 2022, meaning no OS upgrades.

False. This is my work phone and the last update was less than a month ago. It's still supported.

Would be really nice. Seems like even android is getting more and more locked down

It's not going to happen, because government need backdoors to the devices. That's why ability to flash own os is severely limited.

Well, I want a phone that's about one tier below flagship and has certain features. I don't think that's unreasonable.

For comparison: The feature I look for the most is a microsd slot. The last time that option existed that was in the quality range I want, I bought it. For anyone buying a phone right now, samsung has dropped microsd support from multiple more tiers, google and apple have never offered it, motorola and some others have the physical hardware but won't properly update the phone...

That's a feature that has been demonstrated to have no meaningful downsides, and manufacturers won't put it in to good models. I'm not convinced batteries are very different. People's refusal to make huge unnecessary compromises doesn't prove any features are DOA. I can guarantee that the above phone using LCD instead of OLED isn't a compromise for the battery's sake.

The biggest downside of removable batteries is that it's not an option on good phones. There might be some solid physics-based reasons, unlike with microsd, but I'm skeptical.

> And all of the commenters complaining they would never buy this phone is great proof that the removable battery movement is DOA.

I had to reflect on that statement for a bit. I've always bought a new phone when there are battery problems or something else. BUT, that's because I can easily afford it.

There are plenty of people in this world who just can't go out and buy a new phone because one part wore out.

Or, to put it differently: I'd really like to replace the battery in my spare phone that I bring into my hot tub.

I always felt the issue with removable batteries was they had a smaller capacity and would run out of life faster - so the need to be able to replace a battery if you wanted your phone to last more than a few years was important.

Now, with much higher capacity batteries that work better and are more efficient at handling all the demanding displays, high end gpu's and now AI tasks running the background? There's really no need to have removable batteries any more.

Sure, you're going to get a few lemons here and there, but for the most part, batteries these days have no problem lasting the 4-5 years that you need them. You still see three or four year old iphones on ebay with 80-85% battery being sold like hot cakes.

It is also a rugged phone. So if you want to make a fair comparison with an iPhone, you have to put the iPhone in a case, resulting in a similar weight and thickness.

The horror.

Hooray! No more camera bump :)

Oh yeah so it's utter trash and not worthy of our attention. Imagine carrying a whole 58 grams more, during a whole day, impossible for the average tech worker's atrophied muscles

I don't think the mobile phone market produces variety, somehow its market forces make it strive for uniformity. All phones are basically of the same from factor (with the two foldable ones being niches), roughly the same size, same battery, same connectors, one of two OS, etc.

It's the curb-cut effect. Just because the larger population doesn't demand something doesn't mean they won't benefit from it.

You can't buy an iphone with this functionality, and many people are locked into that walled garden for a lot of different reasons.

Better than average phone sold today. The only problem might be lack of android upgrades otherwise it is straight upgrade for most people. This is reason why replaceable battery is important. If you leave IT bubble people happily use ancient phones and do not need upgrades if battery is ok and there is space to save new photos.

There's a new model the 7 pro https://m.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_xcover7_pro-13780.php

The comment is not meant to give you something to buy, it's just proof that it can technically be done, they just don't want to do it for modern flagships.

I cleaned a Samsung A53 under the faucet about 2 years after purchase brand new, using only a little water.

It failed soon after from water damage. I had to get it dried out and a new screen fitted, and some functions never worked properly since then.

I expected better as the specs claim IP67 ("Submersible in up to 1 meter of fresh water for up to 30 minutes"), and I used only a little water.

I had a Pixel 6a last year bought not too long after it came out. I left it on a patio table. I was hosing things off and there was a significant amount of over spray on to the table. The screen died over the course of a couple of hours due to water ingreess.

all that water is keeping the glue moist

A lack of physical port makes troubleshooting more difficult. Apple didn’t remove the diagnostic port from their watches until the series 7. Also I think certain governments require that phones have a USB-C port.

Making these devices repairable is not just about taking it apart, it's also about getting it back together. If I need to electrically debond the adhesive, then I'd also need to new strips of this special adhesive to hold the new battery in place. All of this is after needing a heat gun to weaken the adhesive just to get into it, which I assume also needs to be reapplied on reassembly to retain the same level of water and dust resistance.

It's not just a matter of buying a battery and using some tools the average person has on hand. A whole kit of specialty tools and parts needs to be ordered to facilitate the repair. Apple's own repair kit is the most extreme form of this, where they ship 70lbs of tools, which would be comical if it wasn't so sad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjsc6UypDOI

Friendly for who? I certainly cant electrically debond chemical compounds, but I sure do know how to undo a screw.

not if they manage to find a screw head that can only be opened by a clean, minimalist, proprietary, expensive Apple screwdriver

People in humid climates and cold climates were regularly having their phones get denied warranty service because the water ingress stickers turned red due to condensation, without ever exposing their phone to water immersion. This was understandably upsetting for a lot of people who just wanted their phone to be fixed under warranty.

Thus, companies put in a big effort to seal their phones against dust and water, which ought to have dramatically reduced these service issues and led to a better customer experience overall!

Life happens, people want the assurance that their phone isn’t necessarily e-garbage after an accidental dunk.

It is not that long ago that smartphones would die from moisture exposure if you left them in the bathroom while taking a shower. I had a girlfriend around 2001 who spent all her savings on a shiny new Nokia 8250, got drunk and barfed on her jacket. The phone was in the pocket, and the moisture from the wet jacket completely killed it, she cried about it for weeks. I also remember my mother dropping her iPhone 6 in the harbor while getting off a boat, it got picked up but was dead. Last year I was out hiking in the rain, and my aging (5+ years old) iPhone 11 got water inside it and started dying soon after (I'd been sailing/swimming with the phone and had exposed it to salt water, apparently that will wear down the seals if you do it enough.)

In other words, I absolutely see the need for waterproof phones, even for ordinary people doing ordinary things, and am never going to buy one that isn't.

I like to wash my phone under the tap, not getting paranoid of having it in a table close to the pool while drinking a few beers with my wife and friends, it is a really nice to have feature if you live in a warmer climate.

> Or dropping them in their toilets?

That.

It’s also nice to be able to wash them under the tap

I like to wash my phones every now and then. Even submerging them in water.

Kayaking, fishing, river floating, surfing, diving, snorkeling, etc. "No one I know takes their phone snorkeling" <- that's because they're not presently waterproof, but I imagine a lot of people would like to take a high quality camera under water.

kayaks or hiking or fishing is like 40%% of entire population sole hobby in europe

I'd rather have an 3.5mm audio jack

Swimming. Lakes generally don't come with a securely closed box, and even if I come with company, they usually want to swim at the same time.

Of course I don't have to actually _use_ the phone while swimming, so it goes into a waterproof pouch - but having a 2nd layer of defense is nice.

> Are people showering and swimming with their phones or something?

Believe it or not, yes!

Tens of millions of people have outdoor hobbies that puts them in direct or incidental contact with water. Hundreds of millions live in places where rain happens. Billions live in situations where a spill of drinking water (or water based liquids) are a real risk for thier phones.

I don't want to take extra care and caution just to have a life and a fone. Theoretically this thing makes my life easier and I want it to act like it damnit.

What, you stop refreshing HN while you're showing?

I think it's mostly marketing. When all phones are identical glass rectangles, the only meaningful way to distinguish your product is by being the biggest, thinnest, highest IP-rating.

Most of these metrics are entirely orthogonal to what any real person wants from a phone, but that's an irrelevant detail to marketing types

Yes, people are so addicted to scrolling their idiotic looping videos that they take their phones in public pools. Saw it myself.

They don't. The screws are outside of the gasket: https://rmdd.net/writing/2023/sensor-watch/2.jpeg

Usually there is a gasket, which ages just like glue (it gets stiff and brittle) and should be replaced every decade or so.

I actually never did. I think you're only supposed to replace it on those scuba-style watches with screw-on casebacks that shred the gasket when fully tightened to ensure a tight seal.

But on those watches with 4 screws on the case, the gasket seemed fine to me to keep reusing.

Then use more screws. Stud them all the way down the perimeter of the back 1cm apart for all I care. Still better than heat-guns and prying.

They also don't have speakers, microphones, and charging ports.

Is there any chance it was counterfeit (Timexx or so)

I don't see them as very big weak points. USB doesn't have enough voltage to do jack in water even if you don't detect the water and turn it off. And the speaker can be made entirely out of waterproof materials, there are literally waterproof floating pool speakers you can buy for dirt cheap. The weak link is the main oring/glue as always.

Without sufficient technical information on how the computer works and without root access, we can't be certain a "wipe" will actually wipe everything.

For malware that could be inserted in a targeted manner, even with desktop computers we don't have access the every firmware of every part.

When we're talking about mobile "phones", we usually have an interface that tells us "sure, it's wiped", but is it? Without full root to every part of it, can you be certain that it is? When you press "wipe" on an iPhone or a closed Android flagship (or whatever the UI is), what happens exactly on the filesystem that you can't even access fully?

Telling people to hand over their devices willy-nilly is far from "good". We shouldn't settle for this. The hardware companies can ship us the tools to replace the battery ourselves. Maybe not "ourselves" - my aunt can ask me to do it for her if she can't do it on her own. But she trusts me more than she does people she's never seen ever. If the tools are expensive, we can ship them back. There are many options so we should discuss them.

That was 10 years ago. Are there any other instances similar that are more recent?

"Remember the time Apple fixed iOS so the iPhone would run instead of crashing under low voltage conditions" remains, to me, the most inexplicable of HN's mass psychoses.