| ▲ | Ladioss 2 days ago |
| I always find it an illuminating experience about the power of mass propaganda every time I see an American believe they somewhat have the moral high ground over China, despite starting a new war somewhere around the globe either for petrol or on behalf of Israel every six months. |
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| ▲ | rfrey 2 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| Many of us (worldwide, I'm not American) watched China massacre thousands of its own children at Tiananmen Square. The US is descending into totalitarianism, but it hasn't reached that level yet. And China may have changed in some ways but there have been no signals it would not repeat that event if it thought circumstances warranted. |
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| ▲ | kolinko 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Also, many of us have lived in countries actually freed thanks to the west’s (mustly us) intervention, and we felt the support during the Russian occupation pre 1989 | | |
| ▲ | yaakushi 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Many of us have lived or live in countries that are constantly affected and destabilized by past and even modern interventions from the U.S. (the only blame the rest of the "West" bears here is just watching without ever acknowledging the harm done). Just look at Latin America. edit: Not trying to say "US bad, China good." Just there is perspective to everything. | | |
| ▲ | xtracto 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | This is important. Just a couple of days ago we found out that 4 undercover CIA agents were operating here in Mexico: https://www.infobae.com/mexico/2026/04/22/no-eran-dos-eran-c... It has been knokwn that US government operatives provide weapons to Mexican cartels ( https://grothman.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?Document... ). So, yeah, the US is no "blanca palomita" at all. And those of us suffering from their actions have learned that all powerful nations have good and bad things. Here in Mexico, we've got BYD cars, and they are AMAZING. Also being able to use DeepSeek is so cool. | | |
| ▲ | DoctorOetker 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | If your government refuses to stop the flow of drugs into the US by addressing cartels don't be surprised if the US delivers weapons to said cartels so they can have some infighting going on. If the mexican government would actually make work of dismantling the organized trade, there would be no incentive to deliver them weapons to shoot each other. | | |
| ▲ | xtracto 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Demand, markets are always driven by demand. | | | |
| ▲ | bdangubic 20 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | supply is never an issue, USA would supply poison to entire planet if the demand was there. blaming Mexico for the sickness of our society is very rich (but often repeated) | | |
| ▲ | DoctorOetker 19 hours ago | parent [-] | | I never pretend supply is a monocausal issue, but it is a contributing issue. You prefer to believe in monocausal scapegoat mechanisms? Stick your head in the sand at your own peril. You claim US would supply the poison with pleasure itself, but then why is it being imported? |
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| ▲ | DANmode 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | That’s your understanding of why Intelligence backs/works with cartels?! Oh honey. Black budgets. Cashflow, flow of power. The “Mexican government” was headed by CIA assets multiple times in recent history:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34903090 https://jacobin.com/2023/06/mexico-jose-lopez-portillo-decla... What are you expecting Mexico to do, again? |
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| ▲ | HWR_14 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | My Spanish isn't great, but it seems like the CIA agents were going on missions with Mexican authorities. Is that an issue? | |
| ▲ | throwaway85825 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | They were declared cia officers with black diplomatic passports. | |
| ▲ | wayeq 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Just a couple of days ago we found out that 4 undercover CIA agents were operating here in Mexico was that a surprise? i'd be more surprised if it were only 4. | | |
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| ▲ | glenstein 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | And some of us have a sore lower back after playing tennis, while some of us have terminal stage four cancer. Who is to say which is worse? I think right now there's a kind of global propaganda competition playing out and the thing that does the most damage is false equivalences that encourage loss of perspective. | | |
| ▲ | mlnj 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | The only instance of false equivalence I see is the mention of lower back pain vs cancer. | | |
| ▲ | meowkit 2 days ago | parent [-] | | You cant compare qualia of suffering. At least not with our current technology. Thats the point - they both involve suffering but that doesn’t mean one is inherently worse than the other. The details and experience matter which got glossed over in these stupid debates- hence loss of perspective. Honestly I had to read the wiki page of false equivalence and you’re not asserting the fallacy correctly. | | |
| ▲ | DoctorOetker 2 days ago | parent [-] | | we don't need machinery or a mechanism to compare it, natural selection works just fine for 99% of all species on earth. |
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| ▲ | CuriouslyC 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | The US committed massive treaty violations and genocide, on top of huge imperialist destabilization of many sovereign nations. Tianmen square and the Uyghers are bad, but we're straight up evil. | | |
| ▲ | blackqueeriroh 2 days ago | parent [-] | | The Chinese government regularly kidnaps its own citizens, who have no due process rights, and is currently engaged in a mass genocide of a racial group they consider “inferior.” Additionally, they have supported Russia consistently during their occupation of Ukraine, and just install leaders for life. I’m confused how you think the US is worse. I say this as an Afroindigenous person who is very clear about the harms white supremacy has inflicted upon the cultures I am a part of. | | |
| ▲ | bdangubic 20 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Additionally, they have supported Russia consistently during their occupation of Ukraine And who are we supporting since roughly 01/2025? :-) | |
| ▲ | CuriouslyC 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Just on the genocide scorecard, it's us 0, China 1. Ask a native american what they think of the US govt. |
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| ▲ | 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | meloyc 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | tell us your story | |
| ▲ | 1234letshaveatw 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Us? wow, tell us your story | | |
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| ▲ | 21 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | 0x737368 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | And which countries are those? | |
| ▲ | Scroll_Swe 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Comments like this is spot on. Communism is the cool thing now for young people. China propaganda on TikTok is huge. Huge. And I notice the third world eating it up due to resentement. And young people in my country of Sweden. But mention how Poland, Baltics, Eastern EU never ever ever would go back to communism and they have 0 arguments. | | |
| ▲ | tensor 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I see young people advocating for socialism a lot in Canada, but rarely communism as in communist Russia and communist China. As others have said, old style communism isn't even around anymore. Russia is a fake democracy and China is a strange blend of one party rule and capitalism. I don't think it does anyone any good to throw around naive and simple terms like communism. Focus on issues like public healthcare, breaking monopolies, basic incomes, and so on. We'll get along a lot better that way. | | |
| ▲ | 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | 8note 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | canada has our own history of socialism in the form of crown corps and healthcare. why wouldnt we lean into our own successful practices? | | |
| ▲ | roenxi a day ago | parent [-] | | Because they'll make you worse off the more you scale them up. It's like pointing out that a drink of alcohol with a friend led to positive results so why not lean heavily into drinking? And the answer is because it is something that people enjoy that can be tolerated in small amounts but isn't much of a strategy if the goal is a happy, healthy outcome. | | |
| ▲ | tensor 12 hours ago | parent [-] | | That's ridiculous. The countries with the highest quality of living all have strong social programs. If you want an analogy for alcoholism look at the US. Capitalism works here, so let's use it everywhere! | | |
| ▲ | roenxi 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'm tempted to copy what you wrote as a response without the "That's ridiculous" part. It isn't ridiculous, it is just a factual description of reality. The reason the US can afford the strong social programs is because of its heavy commitment to capitalism. If a country is poor and weak then it can't afford to endure the pain that a strong social program causes. Poor countries just can't sustain populations of people who consume resources and don't create anything especially valuable. If you scale up the social programs too far at some point the wealth destruction becomes intolerable; there's some optimal amount of damage that can be accepted and "lean in to socialism" isn't the best strategy to find that balance because by the time the pain becomes intolerable it has already happened. |
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| ▲ | jackb4040 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | "communist Russia" |
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| ▲ | sublimee a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yeah, there are some Eastern EU countries where populist parties still milk the older voters with Soviet nostalgia. Yet, as usual, the same politicians who suggest how good things were back then are usually very happy to enjoy Western goods, freedom of movement, private property and EU funds. But generally, people still remember the Soviet concentration camps, censorship, shortages of basic goods and the inborn corruption that came with the Soviet implementation of communism. Communism ideologies seem to thrive among the young in (pseudo) democratic societies. That’s a paradox for me, as communism seems to exist because of the wealth distribution that capitalism creates. Now, what the EU is doing right now with all that bureaucratic machine and the leftist social agenda, is another topic. | |
| ▲ | jicko 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | China hasn't been communist for a really long time. It didn't truly stay communist for a long time either, it was more of an authoritarian autarky run by a nutjob. What is is today is state sponsored capitalism. You have cronyism, nepotism, lobbying and rent seeking. All of which are also found in the US. China's social spending is far lower than many other developed nations. | |
| ▲ | lossolo 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Go to Shenzhen or Shanghai, if that's what communism looks like, then it has already won. A few weeks ago, when I was in Shanghai, I went for a walk and saw more McLarens and Ferraris in a few hours than I've seen in New York, Berlin, and Paris combined. They're more capitalist than we (the West) ever were. Communism is basically only something that remains in the name of the party. Their version of capitalism just has a lot more state involvement and capital controls, which lets them plan over longer time horizons more successfully and pivot to new priorities much faster. | | |
| ▲ | blackqueeriroh 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Don’t forget, it also allows them to regularly and consistently jail citizens either zero recourse. I promise you they wouldn’t be getting released like we have happening in the US. | |
| ▲ | Scroll_Swe a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >when I was in Shanghai, I went for a walk and saw more McLarens and Ferraris in a few hours than I've seen in New York, Berlin, and Paris combined. Sounds awful imo. Yet when they want beautiful nature and buildnings etc they go here to Europe. | | |
| ▲ | lossolo 21 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Yet when they want beautiful nature and buildnings etc they go here to Europe. You need to be joking or you never were in T1 city in China. |
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| ▲ | pell 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Very much. Try to start a union in China and see how communist that country is. China is essentially a right-wing hypercapitalist country run by a dictatorship. | | |
| ▲ | breppp a day ago | parent [-] | | To be fair, I don't know where starting a union under Mao would get you |
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| ▲ | lossolo 21 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's funny how this comment (which states nothing but facts) was upvoted and then some poeple were coping with reality by downvoting it. |
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| ▲ | kolkov 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | How many not-so-smart and not-so-intelligent people can claim Russia occupied you? Never mind, your liberation by the West will come back to haunt you, mark my words... and very soon! You'll remember how well you lived during the years of the USSR and the Warsaw Pact! | | |
| ▲ | andriy_koval 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | those countries were liberated 35 years ago, GDP and other essential metrics increased significantly. How longer they should wait to start feeling remorse? | |
| ▲ | randomname93857 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | I remember constant grocery deficits, no meat, no cheese, etc in groceries. and all other kind of deficits. But there were rotten potatoes, and 2 types of bread! Glory to our leaders! fun times, you say. |
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| ▲ | chrischen 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Whether a country massacres its own people is not really a good litmus test since there are countries that treat its own citizens well but foreigners really badly. One such country is… oh the US! | | |
| ▲ | roamerz 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | How could you think those two, massacring your own people and buying plane tickets home for people illegally here are on the same scale at all. We are not ideal here at all but we don’t do that and I think if it were tried there would be an uprising against whoever was calling that unimaginable shot. | | |
| ▲ | z2 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | You might be omitting the foreigners that are not in the United States that are being treated rather badly by the United States. I suspect that's what GP was referring to. | |
| ▲ | skrtskrt 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | How about the US massacring more civilians around the world than any empire since Ghengis Khan? | | |
| ▲ | breppp a day ago | parent [-] | | Nazis? Soviets? CCP? Spanish Empire? How are you doing the math? | | |
| ▲ | skrtskrt a day ago | parent [-] | | You only need the Native Americans, the US share of transatlantic slave trade, Bangladesh, Indonesia, and Iraq for the US to be well clear of the Nazis. This doesn’t even touch the Guatemalan genocide, US backing of the Rwandan genocide perpetrators, the white terror, Pinochet, the Khmer Rouge, Afghanistan, or Israel. | | |
| ▲ | breppp a day ago | parent [-] | | I'd like to see the numbers please, how that gets close to 50 million dead by the CCP, and I can't fathom how do you attribute the Khmer Rouge genocide committed by a communist party to the USA or others on the list |
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| ▲ | LeFantome 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | If I did not know better, I would assume you did not know about the government murdering its own citizens and/or buying plane tickets for citizens to countries that have never been their homes. Did I miss the uprising? | |
| ▲ | platinumrad 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | How about bombing a school? | | | |
| ▲ | Ar-Curunir 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | There are plenty of people who are here legally being shackled in chains and deported too. Also, nice try propagandizing chained deportation as “free plane tickets” |
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| ▲ | unethical_ban 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This is a really, really messed up opinion. Who cares if a country installs a panopticon to monitor their citizens and runs them over with tanks, look at this other thing over here. | | |
| ▲ | platinumrad 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Yeah that "other thing over here" is totally irrelevant. It's not like it's the actions of the second country in the comparison or anything like that. Suppose country A kills 1000 people and country B kills 1000000 people and people are criticizing country A for murder while calling country B a better alternative. What is relevant here? |
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| ▲ | incrudible 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You sincerely think a country that massacres its own people is better than the relatively good conduct of the US during war (or the treatment of foreigners on its soil)? | | |
| ▲ | platinumrad 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Why do we keep on getting into these wars in the first place? | |
| ▲ | HPsquared 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | "Good conduct during offensive warfare" is one of those contradictory expressions like "clean coal". |
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| ▲ | spwa4 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Are you implying China treats foreigners well? | | |
| ▲ | platinumrad 2 days ago | parent [-] | | How many schools has it bombed recently? | | |
| ▲ | spwa4 2 days ago | parent [-] | | In it's entire existence? I believe it shot up a couple tens of thousands of schools during the cultural revolution, and not by mistake. But yeah, I guess that's not bombing. China clearly prefers shooting the students, keeping the building. Why are you changing the subject? | | |
| ▲ | platinumrad 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Am I changing the subject? I thought we were discussing treatment of foreigners and I am detailing a very recent example of how the US treated foreigners. | | |
| ▲ | spwa4 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Yes, the question was if you want to claim China treats foreignors well, and was a reference to that China 1) conquers places, e.g. Hong Kong, Tibet, Xinjang, ... 2) kills, "disappears", ... the people there https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbSypV2ixjE 3) China's CCP has been pushing out immigrants, and fostering racist sentiment | | |
| ▲ | platinumrad 2 days ago | parent [-] | | If we're saying that China has "conquered" places like Tibet and Xinjiang then surely the United States has done much worse to the entire land mass it occupies. But honestly, I'm very much opposed to nationalism so I'm not interested in historical claims, even though China's historical claims are much much stronger. What's relevant in both cases is that the United States and China both have both de facto and de jure control over their present territories. > Hong Kong Did India conquer itself when the British returned rule of India to Indians? > China's CCP has been pushing out immigrants, and fostering racist sentiment It's a little more complicated than this. I think the level of racism at both the state and individual levels is similar between China and western countries, although it may manifest in different ways. | | |
| ▲ | spwa4 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | Hong Kong did not, and by all indications does not, want to be Chinese. Talk to a few Cantonese Chinese in Australia: they especially do not want it. Tibet did not, and by all indications does not, want to be Chinese. Xinjang did not, and by all indications does not, want to be Chinese. I hate historical claims. There are disputed territories less than 10km from where I live, and if at all possible, I'd like there not to be a war here. I doubt there's many places where that's not the case. I know there's some, but not many. |
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| ▲ | platinumrad 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Tiananmen Square was obviously horrible but not even 10% as bad as the current war against Iran or 1% bad as the Second Gulf War, and those are both very recent conflicts. | |
| ▲ | singularity2001 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The US has massacred millions of people of other countries, is that better? | | |
| ▲ | 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | OtomotO 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | |
| ▲ | code_for_monkey 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | You dont even have to look abroad, the USA kills its own citizens all the time. Police brutality is a huge issue here, we had some large protests here and the country ended those with the realization that nothing can be done about it. Kids get shot in school all the time in the US and once again, nothing gets done about it ever. The USA has a gigantic prison population and you guessed it: nothing gets done about it. |
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| ▲ | neves 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | China is a peaceful country. They don't interfere with other countries politics. They look more trustworthy than countries that kidnapped chiefs of state they don't like. | | |
| ▲ | roenxi a day ago | parent [-] | | > They don't interfere with other countries politics. They look more trustworthy than countries that kidnapped chiefs of state they don't like. On the one hand, anyone who believes this is the sort of person who buys bridges from shady individuals in backstreets. On the other, China will literally sell people quality bridges at good prices. I feel lost for a metaphor. I like the Chinese military policy a lot more than the US one (China's policy is actually making them more prosperous which makes it stand out). But as a nation they're not trustworthy and they're absolutely going to interfere with other people's politics. The network of spies and influencers they manage is actually pretty sophisticated once you look at things like the Confucius institute and their international web of spies/law enforcement tracking people down. |
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| ▲ | maxglute 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > no signals it would not repeat that event Of course there is, there's anti riot gear now when there wasn't before. | |
| ▲ | thiagoharry 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Many of us (worldwide, I'm not American) watched China massacre thousands of its own children at Tiananmen Square. The US is descending into totalitarianism, but it hasn't reached that level yet. Wasn't the US bombing its own children just 4 years earlier in Philadelphia? | |
| ▲ | nz 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | And the US massacred four _million_ people in South East Asia, during the Vietnam war. That is 2/3rds of a holocaust. The Iraq War (second one), cost between half a million and a million lives (estimates vary, and it only includes violent deaths directly caused by American troops -- the war itself caused an increase in crime and murder and out-migration). I could go on, but Tienanmen does not compare to most of the things the US has done outside of its own borders from 1946 to the present. And no, we (I am American) cannot justify a body count in the millions, just because our victims are communist/authoritarian/theocratic. Note also that we only number 5% of the world's population, and that if we compared body-counts as percentage of populations, instead of as absolute numbers, I doubt we even have enough people to settle that debt. Even worse, if the world internalizes that it is fine to murder millions of foreigners, just because they are oddballs that their citizens cannot empathize with, the _we_ are going to have a big problem -- we appear much more odd to the world than the world does to us. I am surprised that our shenanigans have been tolerated for nearly a century. | |
| ▲ | noah_buddy 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Don’t you think that it’s a signal that the last major event you can point to is decades old? Others may say “what about Uighurs?” or “what about Hong Kong?” but I think that the rest of the world is not doing all that much better on terms of civil repression. In the UK, you can be arrested for voicing disagreement with the rationale for another person’s arrest (not generally, but on a specific hot button issue they’d rather not anyone talk about). French politicians are attempting to make illegal criticism of Israel, carte blanche. Don’t even get me started on Germany, which is so self-shamed from the last century they have overcorrected into legitimating an external state above all else. Across the pond, you hardly even have to convince anyone that it’s on the downtrend, unless they’re 30% of the population who believe the Don is christ alive (but don’t like if he says it). The world is very unstable at this point and China is a country that strongly values and incentivizes stability, at the expense of individual rights. This is contra a lot of the west which is both unstable and actively undermining individual rights. | | |
| ▲ | hirvi74 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | There is no such thing as individual rights. In our universe, there are only privileges. What a government gives, a government can take. | |
| ▲ | msabalau 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Oh, sure, putting a million or more Uyghurs in internment camps, sterilizing people, and trying to systematically erase a culture and a religion is "just as repressive" as the what is happening in Europe, as long you one is willing to ignore nearly everything relevant about the scale, recourse, and consequence of the PRCs atrocities. Also, reducing Germany’s complex, decade-long process of grappling with the Holocaust as "self-shame" is... a choice. |
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| ▲ | LeFantome 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > China massacre thousands of its own > China massacre thousands Is the first one worse to you? > massacre thousands Does the second automatically seem worse than the third? The one not called China has shot and killed multiple of its own citizens on the street recently. Perhaps that triggers your morality. Which one of them has killed thousands of civilians just in the last month or so including hundreds of school aged girls (confirmed)? And can they even articulate a reason for doing so? Which one decided, made the choice, to kill hundreds of thousands of children by dismantling USAID? And the reason for that was? I mean, they both have concentration camps where they detain their own citizens without due process. So, I guess a tie there. And, they both enabled Russia after Russia stole tens of thousands of children from their parents. So, ya, maybe no clear winner. Neither are the good guys. But China is losing the death count battle in 2026 at least. If you are trying to say that China is worse because of an event 37 years ago, I am not sure I agree. | | |
| ▲ | nz 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Just to add some perspective to this comparison: the US massacred four _million_ people in South East Asia, during the Vietnam war. That is 2/3rds of a holocaust. The Iraq War (second one), cost between half a million and a million lives (estimates vary, and it only includes violent deaths directly caused by American troops -- the war itself caused an increase in crime and murder and out-migration). I could go on, but Tienanmen does not compare to most of the things the US has done outside of its own borders from 1946 to the present. And no, we (I am American) cannot justify a body count in the millions, just because our victims are communist/authoritarian/theocratic. Note also that we only number 5% of the world's population, and that if we compared body-counts as percentage of populations, instead of as absolute numbers, I doubt we even have enough people to settle that debt. Even worse, if the world internalizes that it is fine to murder millions of foreigners, just because they are oddballs that their citizens cannot empathize with, the _we_ are going to have a big problem -- we appear much more odd to the world than the world does to us. I am surprised that our shenanigans have been tolerated for nearly a century. |
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| ▲ | worik 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > children at Tiananmen Square. The US is descending into totalitarianism, but it hasn't reached that level yet. Ask that question of the American Indians the USA genocided. I do not see why USAnians killing Iranians is better than being killed by other Iranians. Dead is dead The bombs that implemented the genocide in Gaza were dropped by the IDF but supplied, paid for and profited from USAnians Not really so clear | |
| ▲ | FpUser 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Hypocrisy meter just exploded after being fed the message | |
| ▲ | riskd 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Can you share the video where thousands of children were massacred in Tiananmen Square? I haven’t seen it yet and am very curious! | | |
| ▲ | idiotsecant 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Make your claim directly, without weasel language. This is a tiresome way to communicate. | | |
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| ▲ | 45qyqy45 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Bush sacrificed a few thousand Americans on 9/11 so that they could get away with killing a million or so Muslims. |
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| ▲ | kiba 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Just because America is doing bad things doesn't mean China is good, or vice versa. |
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| ▲ | LinXitoW 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Of course not, but that's never how Americans act. The commenter didn't say "I don't like that the only two serious competitors are from the USA and China", they ONLY called out China. It's a small difference, but important. Especially because that person is far more likely to be responsible (voting) for and profiting from USAs bad stuff. | | |
| ▲ | jgwil2 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > The commenter didn't say "I don't like that the only two serious competitors are from the USA and China" That's literally what the comment said: > Still not sure how I feel about China of all places to control the only alternative AI stack, but I guess it's better than leaving everything to the US alone. I.e. it would be preferable if, for example, Europe was in control of the alternative, but having China and the US is better than just the US. | |
| ▲ | strangegecko 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | He said "At the very least you can be sure noone is in this for the good of the people anymore. This is about who will dominate the world of tomorrow.". I.e. he doesn't see the US as "the good guys" either. Pointing out the war threat from China isn't hypocritical just because you don't list all the war threats from the US at the same time. | |
| ▲ | hirako2000 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In fact, unless the comment is from someone living in China: understands the politics, it would only be fair to critique the authoritarian aspects of the government they actually know. The issue is propagandists are typically brainwashed already. | | |
| ▲ | amunozo 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Plenty of people around the world know about the authoritarian aspects of the US way better than the Americans, as they suffer their consequences. | | |
| ▲ | broken-kebab 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Which ones do you like to mention? | | |
| ▲ | amunozo 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Iran, Gaza, Cuba, Irak, Afghanistan, Yemen, Lebanon... These people do not only suffer their tyrannical governments, but they must suffer also the war actions of the US and its allies. | | |
| ▲ | broken-kebab 32 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | It's obviously not the answer for the question asked. | |
| ▲ | Petersipoi a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The fact that you just rattled off a list of terror states like it was nothing is so damn funny to me | | |
| ▲ | amunozo a day ago | parent [-] | | You know that there are regular people living in these terror states that have to suffer not only their terror states but the US? It's not that I feel pity of the terror states, but of the regular people. It's a very easy distinction that for some reason (racism?) people is troubled to make. |
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| ▲ | andriy_koval 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Its two step system: tyrannical government committed war actions against US and allies, US and allies responded, people suffer. |
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| ▲ | jerojero 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Hyper presidentialist state that allows one administration (and realistically one person) to start a war against another nation without having authorization from congress. This happened a few weeks ago, actually. | | |
| ▲ | broken-kebab 33 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Actually, I'm in favor parliamentary republic with proportional representation, but words have meanings, and "authoritarian" is impossible to apply to a country with electorally changeable power by definition. Or a one with working separation of powers. And plenty of other attributes present in the US. |
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| ▲ | 0xDEAFBEAD 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Do you believe only Americans should be allowed to critique the American government? I'm an American and I don't believe that. | | |
| ▲ | Matl 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | The issue is that the way you're expected to criticize America from what I observed is along the lines of 'they mean well but...' With China, you can say 'yeah, this is good, but they eat babies for fun' and it would mostly pass with people nodding along. | | |
| ▲ | juleiie 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Criticising America is nothing new or subversive. Hunter s Thompson was doing it all these years ago and much more interestingly and on point than anyone on here could. Day every day the same unoriginal whining because it is hard to call it something as sophisticated as critique, can be heard all over the reddit. While at the same time no one bothers to critique CCP to the same extent because we simply are not paid for doing this. No one is interested in non profit repeating the same facts about china every single day. We are just content knowing that china is not some sort of “saviour” or alternative. It is an enemy of the free world. I try to not use things produced by my adversary to not fund my own doom. | | |
| ▲ | Matl 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > is not some sort of “saviour” or alternative. It is an enemy of the free world. I try to not use things produced by my adversary to not fund my own doom. Are you aware that this is how America is increasingly perceived around the world? It's not a 'free world' when America dictates and the others are supposed to just take orders. May be you're fine with that, feeling on top of the food chain, but everyone needs friends at some point. What does the 'free' in 'free world' even mean any more? You're not allowed to express your opinion on college campuses anymore, (lack of domestic freedom), and if you're a country, you're increasingly facing trade barriers from the US, (lack of freedom in commerce). I'm not saying that as a sovereign country you don't have a right to impose these restrictions. I simply wish the US would treat other countries as sovereign. | | |
| ▲ | juleiie 2 days ago | parent [-] | | America is still a democracy. Its leaders may be vile today but they are bound to change. Unlike China. I cannot condemn whole nation on the basis of two elections. That’s the beauty of it all. In a democracy there are no irredeemable nations. There are just phases better or worse. China was always evil and cracked down on anyone who questioned power of highest leader. If you think you are going to convince people that somehow an authoritarian state is preferable to a western liberal democracy in any way then you are foolish. Or paid by the state. I love democracy and I love freedom. I will tirelessly work to oppose people like you until my last breath. That I swear. All the disinformation, all the propaganda will be dispersed at the iron flank of NATO. You will never have this land. Europe is my home and it is free and free will remain till I breathe. So I dare you commies, come here to Poland and try anything. We will crush you and you will see what red really looks like. | | |
| ▲ | Matl a day ago | parent [-] | | > America is still a democracy. Its leaders may be vile today but they are bound to change. I disagree that it is a democracy. It's a corporatocracy and it's been for decades. But the elections are a nice PR. The Trump thing of not having a PR filter over policies that were there long before him is just making people question whether system a.) is indeed better than system b.); a.) Pseudo democracy where the will of corporations, but not people is implemented and that the people up for elections are so compromised by special interests by the time we get a choice that it doesn't matter anymore i.e. the US and most of the West. b.) A system that does away with the spectacle of national elections, with the social contract being that the leadership better be competent and peruse national interests and development, but is not directly elected i.e. China.
That competency is supposed to be ensured by only allowing people who have proven competence at lower levels, (some of which they are directly elected to). There's a question about how sustainable either is. I would prefer a third option c.) where you can elect relatively competent leaders, but that doesn't seem to be an option these days. What Trump is unquestionably doing however, is making a lot of fans of the idealized system of democracy c.) think that perhaps option b.) > a.) even if less than ideal. Just because you call yourself a democracy doesn't mean you're one. Just ask citizens of the DRC. | | |
| ▲ | juleiie a day ago | parent [-] | | System B In America wouldn’t be better at all. It would be corrupt corporate authoritarian tendency becoming an established reality. It is not yet a reality. You should work to restore democracy not fantasize about falling deeper into authoritarian pit. I don’t get you people. You whine about authoritarian tendencies of Trump and then you say that maybe an authoritarian system is better and you want authoritarian system? This is just insanity That makes me think all these comments are just propaganda double speak | | |
| ▲ | Matl 19 hours ago | parent [-] | | I am not American and you have misunderstood my point. The point is that if you want to have the privileges of a global hegemon and go around the world and accuse others of being authoritarian governments i.e. China, then your shit better be close to exemplary counter to that. Otherwise people around the world might run out of patience with your shit. Looking at both countries and what system the majority of the world would increasingly rather live under, IMO it would be option b.) not because they love authoritarianism, but because they want to live well and be as free as possible while doing so. The US is increasingly authoritarian, (in China you may not be able to criticize Xi, in the US you cannot criticize Israel without consequences). There's multiple ways one can be 'free'. The US seems to define freedom only in the narrow sense of being free from overt oppression for political opinions, but for many being free from economic insecurity is at least as, if not more, of an important freedom.
The US does not offer that second freedom, but increasingly not even the first one. In light of that, why should the people of the world tolerate US hegemony and not increasingly turn towards China? | | |
| ▲ | juleiie 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | Wait so America is getting increasingly authoritarian and you are afraid of authoritarianism so you chose option B - Authoritarianism Make it make sense “ In China, criticizing the central government or Xi Jinping can result in forced disappearances, total digital erasure, arbitrary detention, and severe legal prosecution by a judicial system controlled entirely by the ruling party.” I don’t like this, I don’t like that option B at all. I got an allergy to detention camps | | |
| ▲ | Matl 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Wait so America is getting increasingly authoritarian and you are afraid of authoritarianism so you chose option B - Authoritarianism > Make it make sense If Option A is a country that pretends is a democracy, but in reality is an oligarchy where you don't get taken care of if you're sick, has crappy infrastructure, most people can't afford a family or a vacation AND you increasingly can't express your opinion and Option B is a country where you can't openly express your opinion, but most of the other things I mentioned you CAN afford, then many people would go for option B, because with option A they likely can't express themselves anyway and CANNOT do things they can with option B. There's no simpler way to dumb this down for you. The point is not 'we love authoritarianism', but that America ONLY has the democracy claim going for it and NOT MUCH ELSE, therefore the democracy it has better be near perfect for that to be a compelling argument. And it is far from that. What I find frustrating with discussions like these is that many Americans seem content with the claim that America is a democracy without examining the reality, meaning the chance for improvement there is slim. | | |
| ▲ | 0xDEAFBEAD 14 minutes ago | parent [-] | | >What I find frustrating with discussions like these is that many Americans seem content with the claim that America is a democracy without examining the reality, meaning the chance for improvement there is slim. Well it's not just the Americans claiming that America is a democracy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index Your idea of what the US is like seems to be a mosaic of viral clickbait loosely tethered to reality |
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| ▲ | alfiedotwtf 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Ask people in Iraq, Afghanistan, Venezuela, Cuba, and Greenland if they think America is their saviour and in general do-gooder of the free world. | | |
| ▲ | 0xDEAFBEAD 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Which people, exactly, are you asking? "That same ice cream shop owner thanked me repeatedly for my help in invading and ultimately overthrowing Saddam Hussein’s regime in 2003. I told him that Canada didn’t take part in the invasion, but he didn’t care. Kurdish people were brutally persecuted by Saddam for over 30 years, and look back on the Saddam years with pure terror. The shop owner refused to take payment for the ice cream and offered that I stay with his family in their apartment upstairs." https://goodperson.substack.com/p/notes-on-my-travels-in-ira... In Afghanistan, you saw their desperate attempts to flee the country as the US withdrew. Nonetheless, it was necessary to reduce our warmongering and military footprint. Afghani women being forced into burqas is ultimately not our business. In Venezuela, apparently, the main complaint is that Trump didn't go even further: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas... In Cuba, on the subreddit, there is a discussion of Trump saying that "Cuba is next" (after Iran). A mod of the subreddit writes (translated): "I am in Cuba, and I would say that 95% of the people here—those I know or have spoken with—are reacting to this with hope. That is something that many people on the outside do not see." See link below: https://www.reddit.com/r/cuba/comments/1s5s1ip/trump_cuba_is... And I'm sure you could find a few Greenlandic Inuit who are tired of Danish colonialism as well. My point is that simply "asking people" is not a particularly reliable or effective method. It's much better to stay complicit, reduce military spending, and avoid being a warmonger. |
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| ▲ | jicko 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I don't think people pointing out American hypocrisy are under a delusion that China is a saint. They're just pointing out the hypocrisy. It's also a delusion to think that the world is free under US hegemony. It's mostly better for those who cooperate, and the incentives are good. But it's not "free". The only entity free to do whatever it wants under US hegemony, is the US. The unoriginal whining is mostly about China or any country that isn't the US, really. Asia is unimaginative and can only copy. Europe is lazy, blah blah blah. Because Americans who can't take being told that their country isn't #1 in the morality olympics seem to also not know much about other countries at all. Like look at all the whining about China being communist. It's fcking hilarious. They've been an authoritarian, state-run capitalist country for decades by now. Just google their social spending vs other countries, will you. | |
| ▲ | andersonpico 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Criticising America is nothing new or subversive. Hunter s Thompson was doing it all these years ago and much more interestingly and on point than anyone on here could. The existence better critique out there is irrelevant if you don't take the argumentt in front of you on its strenghts. > Day every day the same unoriginal whining because it is hard to call it something as sophisticated as critique, can be heard all over the reddit. Criticism of a country with military bases across the whole world doesn't have to be hip to be correct. No one cares what you think about reddit or how hipster you like your political takes to be and this doesn't exempt you from having to argue about the concrete facts in a discussion forum. > While at the same time no one bothers to critique CCP to the same extent because we simply are not paid for doing this. No one is interested in non profit repeating the same facts about china every single day. You are so wrong about no one criticizing the CCP that's it's difficult to believe that this statement is sincere. Maybe I could attribute it to selection bias as you're on an american forum? There's also a cottage industry around anti-Chinese propaganda besides the western funded government propaganda machine that is in place for the last decades. > We are just content knowing that china is not some sort of “saviour” or alternative. Oh but they are! China is a concrete alternative for an economic partner for most parts of the world, but only if the US doesn't sponsor a military coup or invade your country in response. If they you can get away from Americans threats, China is also a more reliable partner with much more stable policies and much less likely to sabotage your elections, secretly pay your politics and judges and manipulate your markets. > It is an enemy of the free world. I try to not use things produced by my adversary to not fund my own doom. This has no basis in reality. The US is the actual enemy of the free world and has been since ww2: occupying countries, sabotaging their domestic politic disputes, staging military coups, bombings, etc. Whatever justifications for those actions after the fact do not make any other country more free. | | |
| ▲ | 0xDEAFBEAD 2 days ago | parent [-] | | >military bases across the whole world Another reason I'm eager to leave NATO is leaving will help cut down on our military base count. I expect some Europeans will protest, the same way Kurds protested when Trump pulled us out of Syria: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz-WKu881Yc We'll have to stay strong and ignore their protests. It's the only way to reduce our military footprint and warmongering tendencies. | | |
| ▲ | jicko 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Yeah because obviously the US-Europe relationship is one way, isn't it? NATO exists because the US won't allow any other global hegemon to exist. US backing of Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan are for that same reason. I meant that as a neutral statement; large regional powers also do not like each other when situated too close, that's why India and Russia are friendly, and why Russia and China have a complicated relationship despite both being opposed to the US. Has quite a lot of good also come out of that? To the Europeans, yes. But it's not like the US is doing it from the bottom of their hearts. And it's not like the US ever intervened in the Middle East for anything other than oil, historically. You go there and piss off the hardcore islamists / dictators, and make use of the Kurds as local fighting forces, and then you abandon them to the revenge of said islamists? Ofc they're pissed. | | |
| ▲ | 8note 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > NATO exists because the US won't allow any other global hegemon to exist. this sounds like you are american. NATO is Europe driven, with a goal of keeping the americans involved. the alternative is going back to european powers fighting against each other. the US the whole time has been basically absent. trump didnt start the "will they wont they" rom com setup. its always been there. NATO didnt go to Afghanistan because the US wanted it. europe demanded that the US invoke article 5, ans insisted on sending help | |
| ▲ | 0xDEAFBEAD 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | >NATO exists because the US won't allow any other global hegemon to exist. The obvious non-US potential hegemon was China, yet we normalized trade with them, which greatly helped their economy grow. The new one is India. We've been buddying up to them a fair amount as well. The US also played a role in the creation of the EU, arguably a more potent rival hegemon than any individual European state: https://archive.is/VC2zV >Has quite a lot of good also come out of that? To the Europeans, yes. But it's not like the US is doing it from the bottom of their hearts. I don't believe that is true. As I stated elsewhere in this thread, even during the Biden administration, right after Biden sent billions to Ukraine, the US was barely net-positive in approval rating for many European countries: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2024/06/11/views-of-the-u... If a lot of good came out of the relationship from Europe's perspective, you would expect them to approve of the US. And yet they don't. So we can conclude that US presence is a negative for Europe, and it would be best for Europe if US troops and security guarantees were withdrawn. Unsurprisingly, many Europeans have requested this course of action. >And it's not like the US ever intervened in the Middle East for anything other than oil, historically. The Gulf War was rather similar to the Ukraine invasion in the sense of a powerful country (Iraq) invading a weaker neighbor (Kuwait). But you probably think we only aided Ukraine for minerals-related reasons anyways, eh? That's why Europe is aiding Ukraine right now, correct? >make use of the Kurds as local fighting forces So the Kurds and Islamic State are fighting. The US steps in to help the Kurds. At that point we become "warmongers" who are "making use of" the Kurds. It would've been better to stay complicit. After all, the only reason anyone would ever oppose IS is due to oil, right? So that must've been our motivation. Time to stop the warmongering. | | |
| ▲ | Matl 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > The obvious non-US potential hegemon was China, yet we normalized trade with them, which greatly helped their economy grow. Of course you present it as a one way street. Nah, you normalized with China to counter balance the Soviets and after that fell your companies benefited, since it is much cheaper to produce in China. China just wasn't standing by and it also got something out of that relationship (know how) - the US only wanted it as a cheap sweatshop factory, so as soon as they became a real competitor to the US, the US started with sanctions, tariffs etc. Having failed in China, the US now wants Latin America to stay behind in development terms, just useful enough to outsource to, but not enough to compete. | | |
| ▲ | 0xDEAFBEAD a day ago | parent [-] | | >Of course you present it as a one way street. Nah, you normalized with China to counter balance the Soviets and after that fell your companies benefited, since it is much cheaper to produce in China. China's population was about 6x that of Russia in 1970. So 6x the hegemon potential, in the long run. I'd say that the US alliance with China has been highly vindicated btw. China has proven to be a considerably less oppressive great power than the USSR. I'd say both China and the US are quite herbivorous by the standards of historical great powers like, say, Imperial Japan. >Having failed in China, the US now wants Latin America to stay behind in development terms, just useful enough to outsource to, but not enough to compete. Aside from Mexico, the US does not trade a notable amount with Latin America: "In February 2026, United States exported mostly to Mexico ($28.9B), Canada ($28.4B), United Kingdom ($10.7B), Switzerland ($10.7B), and Netherlands ($8.48B), and imported mostly from Mexico ($44.3B), Canada ($29.2B), Chinese Taipei ($21.1B), China ($19B), and Vietnam ($15.7B)." https://oec.world/en/profile/country/usa The US wants to see Latin America develop in order to reduce illegal immigrant flows. During the Biden presidency, Harris was sent to address the "root causes" of illegal immigration: https://www.nbcnews.com/investigations/kamala-harris-border-... You're just making up random conspiracy theories to see what sticks. Note that you don't provide evidence for your claims. The fact that they fit your conspiratorial intuitions appears to be evidence enough for you. |
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| ▲ | Matl 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > So the Kurds and Islamic State are fighting. The US steps in to help the Kurds. At that point we become "warmongers" who are "making use of" the Kurds. You left the part where the US sponsored extremist groups in Syria, but of course you did. You know, your anger makes sense if you selectively leave out large part of the involvement of your own government in various conflicts. | | |
| ▲ | 0xDEAFBEAD a day ago | parent [-] | | Sure, and the US also sponsored extremist neo-Nazi groups in Ukraine to fight Russia, e.g. Azov Battalion. |
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| ▲ | 0xDEAFBEAD 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | >The issue is that the way you're expected to criticize America from what I observed is along the lines of 'they mean well but...' Hard to think of any critique of the US I've seen on HN recently which acknowledges the possibility that we might mean well. Even during the Biden administration, right after we allocated billions of dollars to Ukraine, huge numbers of Europeans expressed an unfavorable view of the US: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2024/06/11/views-of-the-u... They call us warmongers and then wonder why we don't want to help them fight their war. Now they say they want to be buddies with China which has been actively helping Russia with arms. I don't think there is any point in the US trying to please Europe. And then you've got the Australians who express their burning hatred of the US for not giving more aid to Ukraine, while Australia's aid as a fraction of GDP is still sitting around 10-15% of that provided by the US. | | |
| ▲ | roenxi 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > And then you've got the Australians who express their burning hatred of the US for not giving more aid to Ukraine, while Australia's aid as a fraction of GDP is still sitting around 10-15% of that provided by the US. Which Australians are we talking about here? Australia, if pushed to the absolute limit might formally send a strongly worded letter to the US expressing concerns. They aren't particularly fussed about Ukraine, we've all spent decades politely accepting the US invading random countries for no obvious reason and in defiance of everyone's strategic interests. Australians clearly do not care if distant countries get invaded. | | |
| ▲ | 0xDEAFBEAD 2 days ago | parent [-] | | It's a sentiment I've seen multiple times from Australians online, that Trump is bad for not giving more to Ukraine. See the Australian who chimed in on this discussion for example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45035076 Similarly, I saw a person from Italy who declared the US an "enemy of Europe" for not giving more to Ukraine, when the US has given far more than Italy. There's a professor with the last name O'Brien who constantly castigates the US for not giving more, when we gave far more than Ireland. We just have to stop the warmongering. It never achieves anything. | | |
| ▲ | roenxi 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Are we talking about rswail's comment? He seems to be framing the situation as a short-term aberration and trying to encourage the US to adopt policies he sees as sensible for them. That is hardly an expression of burning hatred. If only I had enemies so devoted to my success. Technically he didn't even say anything related to US activity in Ukraine either. He was pointing out that US policy related to international trade and oil was bad. Which is basically a non-controversial opinion as far as I know. | |
| ▲ | 8note 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Ive seen more than 2 nazi-sympathizers from the states, but i dont think that means americans are all nazis. youve seen 4ish people and you are extending that to tens or hundreds of millions? seems a bit silly to me |
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| ▲ | Matl 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > They call us warmongers and then wonder why we don't want to help them fight their war. Europeans helped when you called after 9/11.
Are you seriously arguing about being called warmongers considering what your government started in Iran?
(and btw screwed the global energy market) This lack of self awareness is what turns people away. | | |
| ▲ | 0xDEAFBEAD 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | >Europeans helped when you called after 9/11. So how would you feel if you got labeled as warmongers for that help? You're welcome to call us warmongers. Just don't expect us to help you fight wars if you do. Libya was Europe's idea -- we helped when you called -- yet the US still gets blamed for it. If the US had surged more weapons to Ukraine (as some Europeans were requesting), thus provoking Russia to launch a nuke, we surely would've been blamed for that too. The pattern I've noticed is that anywhere the US has foreign policy involvement (including Europe), there are locals in that region who are both for and against said involvement. People who aren't knowledgeable about the region will generally not know many details, and simply say "oh, the US is involved in a war again". If that's how we're going to be judged, then yes, I want to be involved in fewer wars. And withdrawing from NATO will help with that objective. So I favor NATO withdrawal. | | |
| ▲ | Matl 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > Libya was Europe's idea. Hardly 'Europe's', it was the idea of some 'humanitarian interventionists' in the Obama admin and the then current president of France who wanted to cover up his corrupt dealings. For what it's worth, I am not a fan of NATO either, so we can agree on that. All US troops should imo immediately leave Europe and loose all access to military facilities on the continent. As for the whole warmongers thing, answer me two simple questions: 1. Was the 2003 Iraq war started based on false claims about WMDs? Yes/No? 2. Did you just attack Iran for no good reason? (Yes/No?) | | |
| ▲ | 0xDEAFBEAD 2 days ago | parent [-] | | >Hardly 'Europe's', it was the idea of some 'humanitarian interventionists' in the Obama admin and the then current president of France who wanted to cover up his corrupt dealings. You can see French and UK leadership were making moves before the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_... Obama's approach was referred to as "leading from behind". >For what it's worth, I am not a fan of NATO either, so we can agree on that. All US troops should imo immediately leave Europe and loose all access to military facilities on the continent. I'm glad we can agree on something. I find that a lot of Europeans are not willing to accept the logical implication of their stated beliefs. >As for the whole warmongers thing, answer me two simple questions: [...] I'm not sure why you're pushing this "warmongers" point. As I said, I'm an isolationist. I've left many comments here on HN about how I want the US to be more like Switzerland. The Swiss never do anything and thus they never get blamed for anything. The families of the thousands of Iranians slaughtered by the regime doubtless think that we are attacking Iran for a good reason. Same way the thousands of Ukrainians slaughtered by Russia probably thought our weapons deliveries were being given for a good reason. In any case we may be called "complicit" if we do not act -- the same arguments were used in the case of Libya. But we can't keep playing world police. We aren't very good at it, and it is not clear whether it is helpful. Not to mention the dubious ethics of getting involved in the affairs of other countries. You're either "complicit" in "propping up" bad regimes, or a "warmongering" "imperialist" who "destabilizes" them. There's no way to win. Given the choice, I prefer to be complicit. | | |
| ▲ | Matl 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > The families of the thousands of Iranians slaughtered by the regime doubtless think that we are attacking Iran for a good reason Regardless of the 'thousands of Iranians slaughtered by the regime' which is supposed to just be accepted as fact despite everyone citing some random number everytime, no they don't. Because the logic of 'we'll liberate you from oppression by bombing you' does nothing but unites Iranians more than they ever were united before. Or do you think the killing of schoolgirls by the US is welcomed by Iranians somehow? Honestly, I am speechless. | | |
| ▲ | 0xDEAFBEAD 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Why do you believe that the current Iranian regime prevents its people from accessing the internet? It's because a lot of the people hate the regime and want it gone. You can see that in activist spaces like the /r/NewIran subreddit or on X from accounts like https://x.com/__Injaneb96 that yes, they do very much welcome US intervention. Here's a video from a townhall in my parent's congressional district where some Iranian-Americans speak up on the war: https://old.reddit.com/r/NewIran/comments/1rbdxzb/democrat_c... It's quite similar to Ukrainians complaining about Putin. "My country sucks, come save me" is always a trap, because if you attempt to come "save" them you just get called a warmonger. | | |
| ▲ | andersonpico 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Oh no the great war crime of _getting called a warmonger_ for bombing children in schools and invading other countries... Your grievances with how you perceive other people opinion of the US are irrelevant when confronted with the warmorgering reality of american foreign policy, no matter how offended you feel on behalf of your favorite military industrial complex. | | |
| ▲ | 0xDEAFBEAD 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Sure, and the Ukrainians (sponsored by Europeans) are killing Russian civilians in Belgorod: https://www.economist.com/europe/2024/06/24/death-and-destru... This is the warmongering reality of the EU. First Libya, now this. Don't get offended, I'm just speaking facts. | | |
| ▲ | Matl 2 days ago | parent [-] | | You seem to think that there's some great agreement amongst Europeans about the foreign policies being pursued by European countries when there's not. Yes, I think European foreign policy has in many cases resulted in the deaths of innocent people and our leaders are "warmongers" for following them. See, it's not that hard.
I am not upset, because I can objectively look at the facts and say, yeah, you have a point.
I even upvoted you. The fact remains that the US has done this on a much larger scale. It's wrong in both cases. | | |
| ▲ | 0xDEAFBEAD a day ago | parent [-] | | So why doesn't Europe pull support for Ukraine then? I'm advocating that the US pull support. Why can't you advocate that EU pull support? |
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| ▲ | Matl 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Why do you believe that the current Iranian regime prevents its people from accessing the internet? In the middle of an unprovoked aggression, is it really that surprising that you might try to restrict channels your enemy might use? I don't think so. | | |
| ▲ | 0xDEAFBEAD a day ago | parent [-] | | Wouldn't enabling internet access allow Iranian citizens to speak against US strikes, if they are all against the strikes, as you believe? >In the middle of an unprovoked aggression, is it really that surprising that you might try to restrict channels your enemy might use? I don't think so. So wouldn't Ukraine also logically want to restrict internet access to its citizens in that case? |
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| ▲ | alfiedotwtf 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Just don't expect us to help you fight wars if you do. Back at you. I'm glad Europe, Asia, and Australia all said no to helping liberate oil from Iran. Also, it's so weird seeing Americans wanting to leave NATO because NATO didn't help invade Iran, whilst forgetting that NATO is a defensive pact. Han shot first :headdesk: | | |
| ▲ | 0xDEAFBEAD 2 days ago | parent [-] | | >I'm glad Europe, Asia, and Australia all said no to helping liberate oil from Iran. I didn't expect any help from them. >Also, it's so weird seeing Americans wanting to leave NATO because NATO didn't help invade Iran That's not why I want to leave NATO. >whilst forgetting that NATO is a defensive pact. It didn't look very defensive when the Europeans dragged NATO into Libya. | | |
| ▲ | wat10000 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Nobody got "dragged" in. Being that NATO is a defensive pact, no country was under any obligation to participate. There is exactly one time in history when a NATO country has actually invoked the treaty that requires help from other members, and I'm sure you know which country that was. |
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| ▲ | wat10000 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | There's a big difference between helping an ally that's been attacked or intervening in a civil war, and attacking countries for no good reason at all. Afghanistan and Libya don't merit the "warmonger" label, but Iraq and Iran do. I don't think there's any equivalent on the European side in recent times. |
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| ▲ | 8note 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | the US dodnt want help after 9/11 NATO insisted on helping | | |
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| ▲ | OtomotO 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > They call us warmongers and then wonder why we don't want to help them fight their war. There is a huge difference between attacking foreign nations because of oil... Oh, pardon me, because of... Geopolitical interests... Oh, pardon me... In the name of democracy and self-defense when you're being attacked (such as Ukraine). We came to help you after 9/11, when for some reason you invaded Iraq although Osama Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda had taken responsibility... But sure, think that you're white guardians of the flame of freedom and democracy all you want! You're in exactly the same ballpark as China and Russia, they're just without the Hollywood propaganda. | |
| ▲ | wat10000 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | "They call us warmongers for carrying out an unprovoked invasion, and then wonder why we don't want to help them resist an unprovoked invasion." Think about this for just three seconds, I'm begging you. | | |
| ▲ | 0xDEAFBEAD 2 days ago | parent [-] | | The phrase "warmonger" doesn't specify anything about the nature of the war, or the reason it was started. It's a very simpleminded "war=bad". If that's how we will be judged, fine. As soon as you use the phrase "unprovoked" then you start getting into messy details. Are we so sure that the war in Ukraine was not provoked by NATO expansion? Are we so sure that the war in Iran was not provoked by Iran's actions against Israel or against its own people? The ideologue doesn't like details. They prefer to see the world in black and white. | | |
| ▲ | wat10000 2 days ago | parent [-] | | warmonger - noun: one who urges or attempts to stir up war And to preempt the inevitable "the dictionary isn't always how people use it" response, this is in fact how everyone uses the word. So yes, it's very much tied to the nature of the war and the reason it was started. Attacking Iran for no particular reason is warmongering. Defending Ukraine from invasion is not. "Unprovoked" can be difficult but I don't think it actually is here. Yes, you can list reasons. But even if you believe the wars' proponents, the justification isn't there. It's like if I tap someone on the nose and they blow my head off. Was there some provocation? Technically, yes. Does the killing count as "provoked"? Not really. That word carries an implication of sufficient, justified provocation, not just "something happened." Did NATO expansion provoke the invasion of Ukraine? Maybe. Is that sufficient to say the invasion was "provoked"? No, not even close. Similar for the justifications given for Iraq and Iran. | | |
| ▲ | 0xDEAFBEAD a day ago | parent [-] | | We'll be called warmongers regardless. E.g. many in this thread suggest all US Middle East activity has been warmongering, even though the Gulf War, for example, was fairly similar to Ukraine in the sense of a powerful state invading its weaker neighbor. |
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| ▲ | hirako2000 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | No I don't mean one needs to be American. The reciprocal isn't valid. I talked about China. Given the misinformation the "western emisphere" has been subject to, I would find it dubious to get the echoes of what mainstream media portrays it as, even though there are elements of truth in what most people believe. The U.S politics are easier to understand from the outside. For one it's a democracy, a more transparent process despite a lot is happening behind curtains. I have no idea what North Koreans are able to make of the U.S scene, I know for sure people in U.S and Europe are hardly able to comment on N.K. tldr: I'm with you non Americans (and Americans) are perfectly able to critique the U.S with some valuable accuracy. | | |
| ▲ | 0xDEAFBEAD 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Why do you assume that the information non-Americans believe about the US is accurate? It seems to me that there is a fair amount of misinformation which gets spread about the US. For example, many non-Americans seem to believe that school shootings are a significant cause of death here. Furthermore, your proposed scheme creates an incentive to be non-transparent and thus not vulnerable to critique. By closing off information about your country, you can say to any critic: "Your critique is incorrect, because you lack information." Thus creating a reputational advantage for countries which successfully clamp down on the flow of information. Is that your desired outcome? You want a world where criticizing the US can no longer be done as soon as Trump kicks out all of the foreign journalists and stops the information flow? | | |
| ▲ | hirako2000 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I'm not advocating for less transparency. My argument is that with less transparent public affairs, it is much harder from the outside to understand what may be going on. One can note the effects of certain measures without cherishing the schemes. For that matter I'm personally convinced more transparency is overall a net benefit. It helps the public at large appreciate situations. But my preference, and the detrimental vs beneficial aspects of a system are irrelevant to the argument I made. | |
| ▲ | wat10000 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | The information believed by Americans isn't any better, anyway. We're closer to the source of information, but we're also closer to the source of misinformation. It's very difficult to discuss anything remotely political with people (I want to say "these days" but I'm not confident this is a new thing) because there's little agreement about basic facts. |
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| ▲ | FooBarWidget 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I find western obsession with "being able to critique X" very weird because it stops at just that. There's very little attention paid to whether the critique produces useful outcomes. While cost of living, energy scarcity, employment, education, wars, etc are all getting worse, people focus on being able to insult the president as the ultimate freedom, even when that achieves nothing. Meanwhile in China, you can't change the ruling party but you can change policies. They restrict media and speech freedom, but they also work tirelessly to improve the livelihoods of the people. If the west chooses the value empty talk over outcomes, fine, you have the right to choose that. But no need to force that value on other societies. China and Chinese society at large has the right value unity and livelihood over speech. They have the right to prefer what westerners call an "authoritarian" government that delivers on those values, without getting demonized. They're not forcing their way on you, no need for you to force your way on them. | | |
| ▲ | kelnos a day ago | parent | next [-] | | > they also work tirelessly to improve the livelihoods of the people. They work to improve the livelihood of people with the same background and ideology, you mean. | | |
| ▲ | FooBarWidget a day ago | parent [-] | | Go travel to lower tier cities and rural places in China. The development those places have gotten in the past decade are huge. Go talk to regular people ask them to compare 10 years ago with now. | | |
| ▲ | MiiMe19 a day ago | parent [-] | | Just like how they harvest the organs of people with a different religion. So progressive!! | | |
| ▲ | FooBarWidget 20 hours ago | parent [-] | | You can travel to Xinjiang and witness for yourself whether religious people and minorities live in daily fear of concentration camps and organ harvesting. There are no special travel restrictions beyond standard country-wide visa requirements. If you're in a western country then odds are you can enter visa-free. |
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| ▲ | MiiMe19 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In china they imprison priests for existing. And sure, they have the right to prefer that, but I can demonize them all I want. If you are the type of person to say the government, made up of people like you, should be able to tell you what to do without voting on if they should be in government at all you are foolish. There is one ethical form of government and it is democracy. Also, they regularly attempt to force their inferior ways onto others. Look at North Korea's obsession with South Korea. China's obsession with Taiwan. Russia's obsession with Ukraine (not really too much of a democracy there though o algo). There is no such thing as a country of that type having freedom to vote and freedom to speak because as soon as you give people those freedoms they choose a different system. It is no different than slavery. | | |
| ▲ | FooBarWidget a day ago | parent [-] | | You ought to travel to China and tell these things (just the parts about China and Taiwan, Russia/Korea etc irrelevant) to locals. In private, in a place with no cameras and no other onlookers, just to sooth your paranoia. People will laugh in your face. Maybe they'll even tell you where to find a church/mosque so you can attend a sermon or bid in the direction of Mecca or whatever. While you're at it, go look for elderlies in their 80s or older, who were born before the People's Republic's founding. Maybe they even witnessed the democratic era of the early Republic (not People's Republic). Go tell them your maximalist thoughts about democracy and see how they respond. |
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| ▲ | 0xDEAFBEAD 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Agreed. |
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| ▲ | glenstein 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >The commenter didn't say "I don't like that the only two serious competitors are from the USA and China", they ONLY called out China What? They explicitly called out China in comparative terms with the US while also criticizing the US. Also, they're the other obvious major global power so it's not a question of singling out. | |
| ▲ | throw10920 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Of course not, but that's never how Americans act. This is just false. I know many Americans and have never observed any of them acting like this, so categorical statements like this are false. Your claims would be more credible if you didn't lead with something so obviously untrue. | |
| ▲ | wat10000 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | They didn't say those exact words, but "I guess it's better than leaving everything to the US alone" is directly aimed at the US. They did say they don't like that the only two serious competitors are from the USA and China, they just used slightly different words. |
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| ▲ | Lapel2742 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Just because America is doing bad things doesn't mean China is good, or vice versa. Of course not. When it comes to SOTA LLMs you have the choice between two bad options. For many, choosing the Chinese option is just choosing the lesser of two evils (and it's much cheaper). | | |
| ▲ | eloisant 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Why people always dismiss the European option? Mistral is right here, their models are in-between the cheap to run Chinese models and top of the line performances of US frontier models. | | |
| ▲ | roenxi 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | People are probably assuming that the trends from the last few decades continue. The EU fumbled semiconductors, production went to Asia. The EU fumbled the software revolution, the successes mainly came from the US. They fumbled the transition to smartphones despite the Nokia advantage. They missed tablets; seemed like they just didn't have the industrial vigour to make a serious attempt. The safe money is they are going to be an also-ran for the AI revolution. They did manage to force Apple to switch from using lightening connectors to USB though so their wins can't just be laughed off. Maybe they'll surprise us but it'd be a welcome change from their usual routine. | | |
| ▲ | jimmydorry 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | We're lucky the EU regulators moved so slowly that the industry had already consolidated around USB-C (a standard that Apple was a key participant of and would have eventually moved to eventually). When they were first deciding what to do back in 2209, they decided that Micro-USB was the best standard. Imagine a world where everyone was forced to use Micro-USB... The obvious takeaway here is that a country / blok can't regulate their way to innovation... so I'm not exact sure why you included it in your list of paradigm shifts. If anything, when the next paradigm shift around charging drops, the EU will be once again on the back-foot due to these short-sighted USB-C regulations they enacted. I do share your sentiment that EU will miss the train once again on AI. | |
| ▲ | sofixa 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > The EU fumbled semiconductors, production went to Asia Production of state of the art semiconductors, yes. NXP, STMicro, Infineon are still there and massive in automotive, industrial, card chips, etc. > The EU fumbled the software revolution, the successes mainly came from the US Worldwide massive success, mostly yes. Most European countries have their local or regional success stories though. > The safe money is they are going to be an also-ran for the AI revolution Not really. Past performances, or lack thereof, are not indicative of future ones. Mistral are pretty good and selling well in the enterprise space. Some of the best voice models are coming from France (Kyutai). | | |
| ▲ | PaulHoule 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | ASML, SAP, Airbus to say a few. | | |
| ▲ | joe_mamba 2 days ago | parent [-] | | That's it? Just 3 companies? Out of which one is a state propped defense provider, and the other won from purchasing US tech. IDK how you can see that as a win for the world's richest block. |
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| ▲ | wat10000 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Past performance is extremely indicative of future results. It's not a guarantee, but it's definitely the way to bet. | |
| ▲ | joe_mamba 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | >Production of state of the art semiconductors, yes. If you fall out of the state of the art then the claim of EU fumbling semiconductors is correct. The richest block in the world should settle for no less than being state of the art. Anything less is fumbling it. >NXP, STMicro, Infineon are still there and massive in automotive, industrial, card chips, etc. The EU semi companies you listed are absent from the state of the art and only make low margin commodity parts that don't have moats. ASML exists but is not enough for claiming EU superiority since the EUV light source is still US IP designed and manufactured. And one top company is too little. >Worldwide massive success, mostly yes. Worldwide success is where the big money is, and you need a lot of money for cutting edge research and experimentation to build the future successes. Hence the claim of EU fumbling software is correct. >Most European countries have their local or regional success stories though. EU mom and pop shops aren't gonna make enough money to be able to afford risky ambitious ventures the likes of FAANGs have. Which is probably why you work for Hashicorp, a large global US company, and not some local EU company. | | |
| ▲ | sofixa 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > EU mom and pop shops Who said anything about mom and pop shops? You're arguing in extremely bad faith, as usual with this topic. Doctolib, Revolut, Adyen, Nokia, Ericsson, Siemens, and tons of others I can't be bothered to list. > The EU semi companies you listed are absent from the state of the art and only make low margin commodity parts that don't have moats You think industrial controllers don't have a moat? > If you fall out of the state of the art then the claim of EU fumbling semiconductors is correct. Absolutely not. There is more to the world that state of the art. | | |
| ▲ | joe_mamba 2 days ago | parent [-] | | >You're arguing in extremely bad faith, as usual with this topic. Care to explain your wild accusations. I never attacked you directly, just the points you made. >Doctolib, Revolut, Adyen, Nokia, Ericsson, Siemens, and tons of others I can't be bothered to list. Do those make anything the US or China can't? A doctor appointment scheduling app? Seriously? >You think industrial controllers don't have a moat? I never mentioned industrial controllers. Just the chips and microcontrollers those companies make. >There is more to the world that state of the art. If you like competing in low margin race to the bottom jobs, sure. Just don't be surprised your tech wages are low then. | | |
| ▲ | sofixa 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > Care to explain your accusations. I never attacked you directly, just the points you made. You twisted "national successess" to "mon and pop shop". It's a typically American argument "unless it's the global behemoth that has a global monopoly in the domain, it's a failure", which is, frankly, absurd. Would you say Venmo is a failure because they're not used outside of the US (because other countries have better banking infrastructure)? Or that GM are a failure because they barely sell outside the US (because their cars are not adapted to other markets)? Or that United Healthcare Group are a failure because they only operate in the US? Leboncoin are a massive peer to peer marketplace in France and a few neighbouring countries (IIRC Belgium), like Craigslist or Facebook Marketplace. They do a couple of hundred million in annual revenue. They are, undoutedly, a local success story. Are they a failure because they don't rival Ebay or Facebook Marketplace? No, because that would assume that the goal of each and every business is to become a global behemoth monopoly, which is an impossibility. Similarly, Doctolib run healthcare appointment and everything related (online appointnments, digital prescriptions, secure storage and sharing of medical data like test results, AI voice note taking assistants for doctos, etc.) in France, and are expanding in a few neighbouring countries. In France they are the standard and pretty much what everyone uses. They are undoubtedly a success. | | |
| ▲ | joe_mamba 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > It's a typically American argument "unless it's the global behemoth that has a global monopoly in the domain, it's a failure" 1. I'm not American, I'm European. And cool it with this finger pointing around nationality as I never brought it up. We can't have a civil discussion if you resort to identity politics as an argument. 2. I said no such thing. I never called those companies failures. You're the one saying that by twisting my arguments. And those online marketplaces and doctor apps you mentioned that are "local success stories" don't have invented any core tech that can be exported and monetized globally the same like Microsoft, Intel, AMD, Nvidia, etc can. export products abroad, they just used existing FOSS technologies to build some local websites in the EU. Any other country on the planet can build their own versions of those apps, and they have, from India to Argentina. It's nothing special the EU made here. So how you can consider them in the ballpark of the tech companies before is beyond me. | | |
| ▲ | sofixa 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > I'm not American, I'm European. And I didn't say you're American, just that you're using the traditionally American bad faith argument. > I never called those companies failures You just called them "mom and pop shops". > And those online marketplaces and doctor apps you mentioned that are "local success stories" don't have invented any core tech that can be exported and monetized globally And that's a different argument altogether. Not everything has to be core tech exportable all over, and one can be very successful without doing that. If you're looking for core tech developed by European countries exported all around the world, enjoy Airbus, Siemens, Infineon, Alstom, Spotify, DeepMind (ok they were acquired by Google), VLC, ASML, SAP and plenty of others. > Microsoft > they just used existing FOSS technologies Can you explain to me the difference between using FOSS and proprietary software to build a product, and what Microsoft are doing? |
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| ▲ | Lapel2742 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Why people always dismiss the European option? Mistral is good for many tasks where you do not need SOTA or near SOTA performance. They cannot compete if you do. | |
| ▲ | 3s 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It’s not top of the line and mostly not open source | |
| ▲ | GistNoesis 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Europe is always 10 years ahead in all theoretical aspects. Then they need money. So most of the talent flee or get bought, typical example in machine learning space is huggingface or fchollet. Then European government plays catch-up and offer subventions, but at the same time makes rules to make sure companies don't threaten US dominance, or Asian manufacturing. Mistral is typically playing catch the subsidy game. Europe is constructed so that it can't win, but can "pick" the winner between scylla and charybdis, pest and cholera. | | |
| ▲ | WarmWash 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | >Europe is constructed so that it can't win, but can "pick" the winner between scylla and charybdis, pest and cholera. Europe is constructed so you can take 60 days vacation, work 32 hours a week, get tons of social benefits, can't really lose your job, and retire when you are 65 with a full pension. Which is excellent. Unless you need to be economically competitive. | | |
| ▲ | pb7 2 days ago | parent [-] | | >60 days vacation Not a thing. >work 32 hours a week Not a common thing. >get tons of social benefits That you pay for in high taxes. >can't really lose your job Layoffs happen at the same rate as elsewhere. >retire when you are 65 with a full pension Unless the government decides to push back your retirement because it's insolvent.[0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_French_pension_reform_str... |
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| ▲ | joe_mamba 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | >Europe is constructed so that it can't win, but can "pick" the winner between scylla and charybdis, pest and cholera. Because they have no spine and no leverage/muscle on the international stage to throw their weight around and make sure they get what's best for themselves at the expense of everyone else the same way US, China, etc do. They play the international nice guy that just ends up being the doormat everyone takes advantage of, being at the mercy of Russian and Azeri gas, at the mercy of US tech, energy and defence, and at the mercy of Chinese manufacturing after dismantling their own manufacturing, at the mercy of Turkey for migration enforcement, etc so they can't do anything radical that upsets their "partners", or that makes their virtue signaling policies look bad, or risk massive repercussions they aren't prepared for, so they just turtle, bury their head in the sand and pretend everything is going fine while falling further into obscurity. EU flaunts its "moral values" as its strength, but their geopolitical adversaries have no such values and are dominating over them in the process exploiting their morals against them as their weakness. There's nothing virtuous in being/acting weak and letting others dominate you. | | |
| ▲ | GistNoesis 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | European Union construction happened after the second world war in the context of the Marshall Plan ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan ) to help rebuild Europe that had been destroyed. By design European laws are superior to national laws. Leaving the union is also instant bankruptcy because all countries have very high level of debt which are only guaranteed because they are in the union. European population is getting old and replaced by a migration coming mainly from previous African colonies. Future paying for the past. | | |
| ▲ | roenxi a day ago | parent [-] | | > Leaving the union is also instant bankruptcy because all countries have very high level of debt which are only guaranteed because they are in the union. That seems to violate basic physics and accounting laws. It isn't possible for everyone to be in debt all at once, because when everything nets out then there isn't anyone to make the loans. Someone has to be producing the goods that get consumed. | | |
| ▲ | GistNoesis a day ago | parent [-] | | That's the magic of interest rates. Countries in the EU, let's say France for example have roughly 115% of GDP of debt. To service the interest of the debt it must finance each year the debt by paying the interests, and borrowing the sum on the market to reimburse the previous debts which are currently reaching their terms. The full owed amount is never paid back, but can be rolled forward indefinitely. These interests are currently ~2% for France. Which mean the debt is manageable and the interests can be paid with the citizen's tax and the music can continue to play. But once France get out of the UE, interests rates become 5% then the citizens tax are not enough to pay the debt, and nobody wants to lend money to France anymore because even at 5% interests the risk of default becomes too great and they risk not getting the full amount-owed back so nobody lends, and since their is no money in reserve, and they can't borrow it means they default => bankruptcy. France doesn't have its own currency anymore so it cannot print its own money which compounds the problem. National resources get plundered, citizens get poor. It is a game of musical chair which is highly non-linear. |
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| ▲ | ahartmetz 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | >after dismantling their own manufacturing Uhm, Europe is not the US. We still have a lot of manufacturing. It varies by country - the UK unfortunately had structural problems, finance supremacy and a Thatcher who hated unions so much that she'd rather destroy unionized industries than have unions. Central Europe still does a pretty large amount of manufacturing. | | |
| ▲ | joe_mamba 2 days ago | parent [-] | | >We still have a lot of manufacturing. Then why are we afraid of China and the US and cave in to their demands? Why is german manufacturing output back to where it was in 2006?[1] [1] https://x.com/ThorstenPolleit/status/2047436171903394294/pho... | | |
| ▲ | ahartmetz a day ago | parent [-] | | We still have a lot != it's doing fantastic and is expanding. | | |
| ▲ | joe_mamba 19 hours ago | parent [-] | | So your >"We still have a lot", is just hiding the decline. | | |
| ▲ | ahartmetz 12 hours ago | parent [-] | | I think the "still" implies that it's at least not increasing and probably slowly decreasing.
And except in some of the largest companies like Siemens (where it doesn't seem to be a big deal anymore neither), the idea that manufacturing (or anything) may be profitable but not profitable enough has not taken hold as much as in the US. |
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| ▲ | john_minsk 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | For a lot of people in the world Europe = USA | | |
| ▲ | benterix 2 days ago | parent [-] | | But this makes zero sense. Two different continents, values systems, law systems. Not to mention the current USA administration is openly hostile to Europe. So why would anyone confuse the two. | | |
| ▲ | coliveira 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Europe is at the mercy of the USA. Any difference in posture is due to local politics which can swing local elections, but European leaders are willing and eager to do what the US wants. | | |
| ▲ | benterix 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Sure, I'd agree with that a few years ago. Nowadays when the USA asks for something like just using their military bases for refueling, they're laughed at. |
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| ▲ | quantum_state 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Europe will not be independent as long as there are US military bases there. Saying otherwise would be kidding oneself. | | |
| ▲ | benterix 2 days ago | parent [-] | | You are aware that the number of American soldiers in these bases is symbolic and their presence is meant to be a deterrent for Russia? |
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| ▲ | f6v 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Europe in general is a wide term. Like, UK is in Europe and is a surveillance state. |
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| ▲ | Matl 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yes, but the framing when America does bad is that they mostly do good. When China does good, it's always that they do mostly bad. With China it's always pointed out how much power the state has over corporations there, but in the US out of control lobying is supposed to be 'concerned citizens expressing their opinions' or some shit. We're still supposed to take for granted that it is a representative democracy, if a flawed one. | |
| ▲ | razodactyl 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think a lot of us are blinded by our own propaganda. I would expect many Chinese geeks to have the same values as us for the greater good of humanity. | | |
| ▲ | dnautics 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > I would expect many Chinese geeks to have the same values as us for the greater good of humanity. Yes, they just can't talk about some of those values publically. | | |
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| ▲ | segmondy 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Pick people at random from countries around the world. Ask them what bad things have happened to them or their country because of China or USA. What do you think the result is going to be? | |
| ▲ | 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | zaphirplane 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think people worry about monopolies, be it financial or otherwise | |
| ▲ | cpursley 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yeah, idk this looks pretty good and they ain't bombing anyone nor trying to spread global communism USSRs style: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7W20hdgWXY I think I'll take the open AI models, innovative high quality EVs and cheap solar panels, please. | |
| ▲ | flossly 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Just because America is doing bad things doesn't mean China is good, or vice versa. When someone points out hypocrisy, this is "the answer", it seems. But it is just a statement, not a rebuttal of the hypocrisy that was pointed out. Hypocrisy is still hypocrisy. And bad things are bad things. Yet no amount of propaganda (red scare, "eew dictatorship", Uyger-genocide, Taiwan threat) can convince me that the China is as evil (or more evil) than the US-Israel alliance of the the last 50 years. | | |
| ▲ | strangegecko 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Hypocrisy would be if the person only points out Chinese authoritarianism without acknowledging problems e.g. in US policy. Not mentioning US problems every time they criticize CCP problems is not automatically hypocrisy, and this idea basically means you cannot criticize anything without criticizing everything someone considers just as bad or worse at the same time. Calling a discussion on China hypocritical because it doesn't say "but US worse" is essentially trying to build in whataboutism into every discussion. It's a symptom of increasing polarization and part of the problem. | | |
| ▲ | flossly 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | There's US AI and China AI. Those are the two contenders. We are discussing the problems of using the Chinese AI because of the "evil" govt there. The evil at this point clearly is less evil than that of the US govt. That's the hypocrisy: not seeing the block of wood in the eye of one while complaining about the speck of wood in the eye of the other. By trying to be less hypocritical we create a more level playing field based on facts, instead of gut-feeling based hatred. Whatabboutism is, IMHO, used a lot as a way to circumvent having to address the glaring hypocrisy: i see it's used to shut up those to point out hypocrisy. | |
| ▲ | z2 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | yunwal 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Uyger-genocide I'm gonna go out on a crazy limb here and say that this is on par with the genocide in Gaza? Mass sterilization, forced labor, sex, and torture on a larger scale than Gaza. Certainly we can argue about which is worse, but they're both incredible atrocities. The only thing that makes China less scary IMO is that they currently aren't the empire ruling the world and at the center of the global economy. If that changes, as seems likely, I don't see any reason to believe China would be a better or more compassionate world ruler than the US. | | |
| ▲ | 2ndorderthought a day ago | parent [-] | | There are no scales to weigh 2 atrocities against one another. There is only a hole for the humanity we have all lost. North hell is no different from west, east, south or central hell. |
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| ▲ | stickfigure 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The difference is that - at least in the last 50 years - the US starts wars with brutal dictatorships. Whereas China is threatening war against a thriving democracy. These are not equivalent. |
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| ▲ | chrischen 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | The US starts wars… they just often happen to be with dictatorships. The US definitely also supported dictatorships (like Taiwan and South Korea). You can argue all day about whether A is slightly more rotten than B, but if they are both rotten then in the grand scheme they will both end up being the same thing if something doesn’t get fixed. | | |
| ▲ | stickfigure 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > like Taiwan and South Korea. You had to reach back 50 years to find US support for dictators. > they just often happen to be with dictatorships No, they always happen to be with dictatorships. The motives of US politicians are not relevant to this fact (I personally think Trump is corrupt and incompetent); the US system is democratic enough, and Americans are moralistic enough, that even corrupt and incompetent politicians can't get away with military adventurism except with dictatorships. Thus the end of that Greenland nonsense. | | |
| ▲ | glenstein 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Right, and if distance from the present matters, probably the biggest risk to global peace (such as it is) comes from China's increasingly serious preparations for a military attack on Taiwan. | |
| ▲ | flumes_whims_ 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > You had to reach back 50 years to find US support for dictators. More recently, Sadam and Noriega until America turned on them. Or currently, the Kingdom of Saudia Arabia, Egypt, and many others. | |
| ▲ | jicko 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | People are literally talking about tiananmen square upthread like it's the biggest problem ever with China. Both Taiwan and South Korea had their own version of tiananmen square. I don't think you realise that much of the world was under de facto dictatorships (eg. absolute monarchies) and it wasn't like people in the years before were living in democracies that then got taken away. The US doesn't have a higher moral ground to stand on vis a vis many other countries in the world. | |
| ▲ | tw1984 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > You had to reach back 50 years to find US support for dictators. US allies in the entire middle east are literally all dictators or worse than dictators. For example, Saudi Arabia is an absolute monarchy, you just need 6 years education in school to understand that is worse than dictators when religion is also heavily involved at the same time. | | |
| ▲ | Ajedi32 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Yeah I would refine that argument a bit and say the US will sometimes support (or rather, ally with) dictators when the only viable alternative is an arguably worse dictator. There aren't exactly a lot of democracies in the middle east we could be supporting instead. | | |
| ▲ | flumes_whims_ 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Like supporting Al Qaeda to overthrow Assad. | | |
| ▲ | Ajedi32 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Exactly. Unfortunately, "arguably better" doesn't always turn out to be "actually better" once you have the benefit of hindsight. |
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| ▲ | jicko 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | there weren't a lot of democracies in the world until recently. And even a good many of them are effectively oligarchies. if you want a good path to true improvement in civil rights (not a useless piece of paper or declaration) just track the wealth of a country. Wealthy countries that didn't rely on natural resources to get wealthy tend to treat their citizens better because, well, they make up the fcking economy. most western countries had a shortcut to that via colonialism and slavery. It's very rich to then point at countries that don't have that cushion and talk about being morally superior. | | |
| ▲ | Ajedi32 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Nice theory, but it seems demonstrably untrue to me. Has China made any major strides in civil rights since their economic miracle? They seem as determined to stamp out the few remaining bastions of civil rights in their corner of the world as ever. Democracy is a morally superior system of government, because it's fundamentally premised on a moral idea; that governments "derive their just powers from the consent of the governed". Dictatorships and aristocracies can make no such claim. | | |
| ▲ | Daishiman 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Democracies are not a guarantee of civil rights and easily turn into authoritarian and repressive regimes. | | |
| ▲ | Ajedi32 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Usually only after they stop being democracies. It's rather difficult to repress people who can fire you if they don't like the job you're doing. But in principle I agree, democracy on its own doesn't guarantee morality. There's such thing as the tyranny of the majority. |
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| ▲ | chrischen 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The US starts wars… they just often happen to be with dictatorships. The US definitely also supported dictatorships (like Taiwan and South Korea). | |
| ▲ | alfiedotwtf 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Lol... I think I've typed up and then deleted my response to this comment about 10 times, but now I don't think I'm even going to give you reasoned response. If you really think that the US has the moral authority to invade whoever it likes because they're "saving the local people from repressive regimes", I've got a bridge to sell you. Even Trump has dropped this pretext facade unlike all his predecessors, and now straight out says "we're going in to take their oil". |
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| ▲ | vsgherzi 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Not about moral high ground. Ones a democracy one isn’t. |
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| ▲ | spaceman_2020 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Your democracy has consistently voted senile 75 year olds for 3-elections now The current president - who Americans voted for twice - is heavily accused of being a pedophile and has reneged on every one of his poll promise Really not the best advertisement for democracy | | |
| ▲ | wiseowise 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | The difference is that there was (at least an illusion of) choice. Nobody said that it is a perfect system. And Trump will be gone in 3 years, while Putin and Xi will stay in power until their death. | | |
| ▲ | spaceman_2020 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I don't understand why Americans continue believing that democracy is the only way for every population in the world Why would Russians want democracy? Or the Chinese, for that matter? There have been zero democratic impulses in their societies across hundreds, even thousands of years. The west needs to rest its democratizing mission and accept that every society is fundamentally different My country (India) got a "thriving" democracy, but because there is no real democratic impulse in the society, everything on the ground has devolved into what the society was always like - quasi-feudal bureaucracy | | |
| ▲ | akmiller 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > I don't understand why Americans continue believing that democracy is the only way for every population in the world They don't! The majority voted for the guy who wants to, admittedly (multiple times), be a dictator and is huge fan of other dictators. If he finds a way to stay for a 3rd term his most loyal followers along with all the republicans in Congress will be just fine with it. | |
| ▲ | hootz 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >I don't understand why Americans continue believing that democracy is the only way for every population in the world Well, ideology. I believe my way is the only way for every population in the world too, and I fight for it to happen. Of course, each place adapts to their own condition, but I believe my core ideology is the way for humanity as a whole, and I believe it is the same for people who defend western american-style democracy. | | |
| ▲ | spaceman_2020 2 days ago | parent [-] | | What part of "defending western american-style democracy" involves imposing it on other countries and being mad when they don't adopt it? |
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| ▲ | nailer 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Or the Chinese, for that matter? The marched for it en masse in 1989? Russians and Chinese are also people. They deserve to rule themselves. | | |
| ▲ | jyscao 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | An ideologically driven subset of urban educated youths that was proportionally a tiny subset of the entire Chinese population marched for it in 1989. FTFY. They are ruling themselves in the sense that their governing systems are emergent consequences of their own cultures. All peoples ultimately deserve the governments they have. | | |
| ▲ | breezybottom 2 days ago | parent [-] | | You could say the exact same thing about the cultural revolution. | | |
| ▲ | jyscao 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Yes, so what's your point? | | |
| ▲ | nailer 2 days ago | parent [-] | | That your point about support for Chinese democracy, could also be applied to Chinese communism - was that not obvious? Also in the Chase of Chinese communism the cult was facing a KMT that had suffered from just defeating the Japanese. More of the point though they support for Chinese democracy was broad enough to the Beijing army could not be used to suppress the protests. The tanks and the people that killed the students had to come in from outside the city. | | |
| ▲ | jyscao 20 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Ironic then that most of the students throughout China who supported and even participated in the Tiananmen protests would later admit that Deng acted correctly in squashing it, and that China is better off today for that. This is a sentiment most Chinese living in China today share. Could things eventually go south with the CCP in charge? Of course, and given long enough time, that's almost a certainty. But even when that day comes, it still does not directly imply a liberal democracy was the better governing system for the Chinese people, as your original comment strongly implied. | | |
| ▲ | nailer 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | “ most of the students throughout China who supported and even participated in the Tiananmen protests would later admit that Deng acted correctly in squashing it” That’s a very big claim to make without a reference. | | |
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| ▲ | jyscao 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | >That your point about support for Chinese democracy, could also be applied to Chinese communism Incorrect - my point about Chinese democracy does not apply to the current governing body of China (whether you choose to view and harp on them as communist or not is irrelevant). The Cultural Revolution, which the previous commenter presented as a gotcha, is widely regarded as a dark period and unequivocally a mistake by the majority of Chinese today. But Chinese communism today is both much more and much different than Chinese communism under Mao. OTOH Tiananmen is much more emblematic of "Chinese democracy" than the Cultural Revolution was of Chinese communism. And as already stated, the way Tiananmen was handled is deemed to be correct by the majority of the Chinese populace today. And so once again, this goes back to my original point: peoples of different nations choose their own government, including the form of that government, and not just in the narrow sense of who their next public-facing leader should be during the next several years. The Chinese already does exactly that. | | |
| ▲ | nailer 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | No, correct. You said
“ideologically driven subset …proportionally a tiny subset of the entire Chinese” which is absolutely true of Mao’s cult. | | |
| ▲ | jyscao 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | Mao's cult as you call it, shares little similarities to the modern day Chinese government, which is arguably the most pragmatic government that exists in the world today, certainly amongst developed countries. So once again, wrong. |
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| ▲ | spaceman_2020 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | The Americans marched en masse to get rid of ICE, right? Guess the Tiananmen square tank man is a victim, but Alex Pretti and Renee Good are just statistics (The tank man wasn't even run down by the tank - Good was shot for merely turning the wheels in the wrong direction) Americans really need to shut up about any democratic values or humans rights and clean up their own mess before preaching to the world | | |
| ▲ | nailer 2 days ago | parent [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | layla5alive 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Try watching the videos instead of Fox News or OANN. Pretti tried to help a woman who was pushed down by masked agents, they then attacked and executed him. Good tried to turn AWAY from the man with the gun and get out of the situation and he stepped in front of her and executed her, shooting even after she'd driven past him without hitting him despite him putting himself into harms way. | | |
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| ▲ | 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | MiiMe19 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Because a government has no power to tell the people what to do if the people did not vote for it to be there. There is no alternative. | |
| ▲ | 8note 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | people might not be excited about democracy, but they are about individual rights and freedoms people can tell when their rights are being unjustly infringed upon, even without the verbiage. democracy is just a handy way of working with individual rights | |
| ▲ | wiseowise 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Why would Russians want democracy? Could be something to do with almost 400 years under czar heel and then 70 years under commie repressions and mismanagement that yielded one of the worst crises in the history of the country that is still being mentioned with fear (90s, brrrr). > There have been zero democratic impulses in their societies across hundreds, even thousands of years. > Russia What the am I even reading. Educate yourself before making such claims. Decembrist movement, 1905 revolution, 1917 provisional government, constant unrest after the death of mustached cunt, perestroika. Navalny recently died in prison for fighting for democracy, ffs. The only reason why we're having current Russia is because the West royally fucked up by not economically supporting them in 90s and allowing oligarchs to usurp vast soviet empire resources. | | | |
| ▲ | sofixa 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > I don't understand why Americans continue believing that democracy is the only way for every population in the world It's not Americans, it's educated people who believe in personal liberties. > Why would Russians want democracy Because they would have a choice if they want to be robbed blind by a bunch of oligarchs, and if they want to be sanctioned off from the world because the supreme leader decided he wants to kill and maim a million Russians to achieve nothing more than killing Ukrainian civillians. > There have been zero democratic impulses in their societies across hundreds, even thousands of years Absurdly bad historic revisionism. Russia had democratic impulses in 1917 and 1990, both hijacked and went nowhere. China's 1911 revolution was also overtly democratic in nature, but was also hijacked. | | |
| ▲ | spaceman_2020 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > It's not Americans, it's educated people who believe in personal liberties. I find this attitude deeply parochial and colonial. Who are these so-called "educated people" (most of whom would be in western developed nations) to decide what sort of governance system a country should have? The democratic revolution in America and France came from its own people. If the Russians or the Chinese want democracy, they'll get it on their own Western hand-wringing about the "lack of democracy" in foreign (usually poorer) countries is just concern-colonialism. I think most of these educated people should focus on their own countries and let the rest of the world be | | |
| ▲ | wiseowise 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > If the Russians or the Chinese want democracy, they'll get it on their own There's literally a saying about USSR (which by proxy now applies to Russia) which roughly translates to: half the population in prison and another half as guards. You can't get it when army, police and whole government apparatus is aimed against it. Times have changed, people are not willing to die en masse for a change when one single cop can kill a crowd. They literally killed 132 hostages during a saving operation [1], how many do you think will die when they start shooting the crowds? 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis | |
| ▲ | sofixa 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > I find this attitude deeply parochial and colonial. Who are these so-called "educated people" (most of whom would be in western developed nations) to decide what sort of governance system a country should have? Do you think only people in western countries want a democratic system of governenance for their country? > If the Russians or the Chinese want democracy, they'll get it on their own Both of them tried it, but were denied. |
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| ▲ | 8note 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | both putin an xi maintain a convincing illusion of choice too. There's plenty of leadership selection process for both, that could remove them orban even lost with a similar illusion of choice. | |
| ▲ | cycomanic 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | At some point I saw an analysis that looked at the policy/political differences between the different fractions of the Chinese communist party and compared them to the spread in a western parliament (I don't remember which one I think US or UK). They found that the spread was very similar. With that I'm not saying that the Chinese system is better, just that these statements are not as straight-forward as one things. I think a much better metric is suppression of dissent, human rights records etc., not (the illusion of) choice at the poll booth once every 4 years. | | |
| ▲ | TheOtherHobbes 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | The marketing pitch of Western "democracy" has always been that you can criticise your government freely and the government won't jail you or murder you. Also, consumer goods. The voting and multiple-branches-checks-and-balances elements are sidelines. Currently none of those promises are true in the US. The government is murdering and jailing people for whimsical and self-indulgent reasons, the consumer economy is about to crash, and the only checks-and-balances are the checks going straight to the Emperor's private accounts. To be fair, there's some judicial pushback, and some political friction. But Senate and Congress are wholly captured, the opposition is flaccid and foreign-funded, media independence is a myth, and the last time The People had any real influence on policy was the 70s. Possibly. I have no idea if China is "better". From a distance China seems to be doing much better at building useful things and making long term plans. But ruling cliques always seem to end up being run by psychopaths, so my expectations for humanity from China's rulers aren't any higher than those for the US. | | |
| ▲ | NoGravitas 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Despite being formally less democratic, the Chinese government is in practice more responsive to its constituency than the US government. I have to think that class character of the parties is the determining factor. The CPC is, despite everything, still a proletarian party. In the US, the two parties are both directed by the interests of the haute bourgeoisie, with the Republicans pulling votes from the petit bourgeoisie, and the Democrats pulling votes from the professional-managerial class. |
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| ▲ | spaceman_2020 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I mean the American people who will cry about humans rights records in China will also watch masked government agents shoot down their own citizens just because they're suspected to be illegal immigrants It would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad | | |
| ▲ | SmirkingRevenge 2 days ago | parent [-] | | It's not true that people just sat by and watched. There was massive public backlash and real organized resistance, especially in the streets of Minneapolis. People literally put their lives on the line, communities banded together to help migrants who were afraid to go to work or leave their homes, and they ultimately forced the government to retreat and change tactics. And it resulted in the firing of a cabinet secretary and the border patrol commander that was the face of the whole thing. And plummeting public approval that has only declined further since A somewhat similar campaign occurred in Hong Kong, but the resistance sadly was not able to fare as well against China tyranny |
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| ▲ | SmirkingRevenge 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | To be fair, it really has been the structurally anti-democratic elements in the American system that enabled Trump to come to power in the first place, and that have allowed the GOP to remain competitive nationally for quite a long time, despite being a minority party The US badly needs to reform these elements, but it's those elements that really make reform nearly impossible at this point. Electoral college reform, gerrymandering reform, increasing the size of the house or some kind of proportional representation, etc |
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| ▲ | dspillett 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I'm going off democracy, at least how it is currently implemented. It is proving far too easy to pervert. It turns out that the people will vote for some terrible things in order to get that one petty little thing a given candidate promises and they want, or because they don't like something specific about the other candidate(s). And of course many may later say “well, I didn't vote for that” when they quite demonstrably did. | | |
| ▲ | iso1631 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure The measure is the number of votes. "What shall we have for dinner" measures things, there's no target in a "curry vs pizza vs thai" poll, and it doesn't really matter, the target is a nice night in with a film. However with politics, getting power is the goal, thus the number of votes is thus the target, and thus its not good at measuring what the country actually wants, just who can best get the most votes. This isn't new, but modern brainwashing allows manipulation at a scale hitherto unseen. | |
| ▲ | benterix 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Well, the politicians learned how to game the system well. Now people need to learn how to game the politicians. A formal verification process of pre-election promises would be a good start. | | |
| ▲ | iso1631 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Nobody cares that politicians don't keep pre-election promises. And in most cases they shouldn't, circumstances change. You can have no intention of doing something, then something else happens, and you change your mind. The problem is that people put stock in pre-election promises, rather than voting for the character of the person they want to represent them. |
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| ▲ | makingstuffs 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | How can there be democracy in an environment where freedom of thought is all but nullified due to social manipulation through mainstream media. Calling something ‘free’ doesn’t make it so. The reality is that the term democracy in western society has essentially become meaningless due to the swathes of algorithmic manipulation which occurs every second of everyday through every possible digital medium. | | |
| ▲ | foobiekr 2 days ago | parent [-] | | It’s not the mainstream media that is primarily manipulating people in the US and has not been since the eighties. Extremely biased “conservative” (in reality anything but) propaganda has been dominant for a third of the population since Gordon Liddy and Limbaugh turned lying and fear mongering into a profession on the backs of the authoritarian paranoid personality segment of the population. |
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| ▲ | Al-Khwarizmi 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The moral weight of democracy is heavily overrated. Of course democracy is better than autocracy, all other things being equal. But I don't think a democracy that starts wars and bombs a new country every other year is morally superior to any relatively peaceful autocracy. Rather the opposite. | | |
| ▲ | steviedotboston 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Try holding up a sign in the street anywhere in China that says anything remotely critical of the Chinese government. Or live in China and post something online remotely critical of China. You will be arrested, thrown in jail for years. Democracy isn't just having an election every four years. We have rights that we shouldn't take for granted. |
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| ▲ | lmz 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | So that means the people are complicit in whatever wars the US started. Not sure if better or worse. | | |
| ▲ | nuancebydefault 2 days ago | parent [-] | | A lot of people voted for someone who was known to be an evil crook. It was very clear that he got into politics for praising his own ego. They voted against 'the good' in the hope for their own benefit and against that of the world. If they did not 'expect' the current state of affairs then they just refused to listen to their own heart. |
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| ▲ | sscaryterry 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried". Winston Churchill | | |
| ▲ | parthdesai 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Quoting a guy who is (in)directly responsible for murder of about 4 million people. Nice | |
| ▲ | jampekka 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Socialism with Chinese Characteristics had not been tried at that point :) | | |
| ▲ | usrnm 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | To be fair, Deng Xiaoping's reforms were based on the older New Economic Policy or NEP from the 1920s USSR, so it had been tried at that point. It was scrapped in the USSR for other reasons, not because it failed. | |
| ▲ | WarmWash 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Ironically you can map China's progress over the last 30 years directly with their adoption of capitalistic policies. The more capitalistic they become, the more growth they have seen. | |
| ▲ | 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | sscaryterry 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Exactly, maybe we've got it all wrong :) | |
| ▲ | crimsoneer 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | The word you're looking for is dictatorship, and it is not new. |
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| ▲ | jampekka 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Ones a democracy one isn’t. China characterizes itself as a democracy too, just not as a liberal democracy. There are democratic processes, although these are not free in the sense of liberalist ideology. The CCP justifies its control of the elections as a counterbalance to being corrupted by money, which starts to look like not an entirely unreasonable justification. The CCP narrative also emphasizes "outcome orientation", i.e. that (democratic) legitimacy comes from people being happy about what the governance delivers, not about how it gets chosen. Which again starts to look not totally crazy, given western governments nowadays tend to have dismal approval ratings. And even after taking into account the likely biases in the polling, I do believe the majority of the Chinese truly approve of the CCP. I'm not a fan of the Chinese system, but I think there are lessons we could take, and a binary "democratic or not" is not a very meaningful categorization. | | |
| ▲ | WarmWash 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Just a reminder that the DPRK is "Democratic People's Republic of Korea". North Korea is a democratic republic! | |
| ▲ | stickfigure 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | This is utter nonsense. Democracy is the idea that people should control their government. The CCP's (and Putin's) notion of "democracy" is something along the lines of "as long as the government controls the people, the people can decide". Democracy may be a spectrum but China isn't on it, neither in practice nor in spirit. If you have to control the media and prevent free discussion, you aren't practicing democracy. | | |
| ▲ | tw1984 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > Democracy is the idea that people should control their government. who started the recent war with Iran and war in Vietnam? did those wars started by American people? did those wars got approved by the people of America or their elected representatives? | | |
| ▲ | stickfigure 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > their elected representatives Yes? The US president is elected, and while you or I might the system would be better if presidents didn't have quite so much authority... we know the system works this way when we vote. | | |
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| ▲ | chvid 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Germany was (formally) a democracy when it fought the Soviets. | |
| ▲ | sucrosesucrose 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | And why should anyone prefer a democracy over any other form of government? Doesn't it depend on the philosophy of each People? | | |
| ▲ | leoedin 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | As far as I'm aware most autocratic forms of government have to clamp down on dissent with some level of force, be it violence or imprisonment or seizing assets. It means people are afraid to criticise power. Western democracies don't have that problem. Yes, they have other problems. Many problems which are hard to solve. But if you live in a western democracy you can freely criticise those in power without fear of retribution. | | |
| ▲ | NoGravitas 2 days ago | parent [-] | | In a western democracy, you can, at least in theory, freely criticize those in power without fear of retribution, but also without any hope of your criticism changing anything. It's just a pressure release valve. When criticism starts taking a form that might force change, the mask and the gloves come off, as you can see in the violence against protesters once protests reach a critical mass. | | |
| ▲ | leoedin 2 days ago | parent [-] | | You can't force change, sure, but that doesn't mean you can't be part of it. Individuals can and do join political parties and become influential within them. Political parties win elections and ultimately set policy which can start to change things. None of those things happen quickly, and most people don't succeed in their attempt to do it. That doesn't mean it's not possible. I'd argue that it's a feature of the system that the system makes it hard to change course - it averages out the extremes. |
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| ▲ | wiseowise 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > created: 18 minutes ago Right. | | |
| ▲ | hootz 2 days ago | parent [-] | | He didn't even say anything outrageous, he's just participating in the discussion. People can create accounts to be able to reply to a discussion, even throwaways. | | |
| ▲ | wiseowise 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Saying stupid things isn't outrageous indeed. | |
| ▲ | sigmoid10 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Questioning democracy unfortunately is a very common agenda by certain countries that don't want their own people to realize how much they are getting screwed by authoritarianism. But in the end it's like saying people have a "right" to get fucked over as long as it helps me. It's just a distraction. If you watch this sort of stuff closely, you'll find there has been a huge uptick online with pro-China content lately. Probably not a coincidence that Xi has told his army to be ready to invade Taiwan by next year. If Trump keeps chickening out and fumbling Iran so bad, they will probably seize the opportunity before the US or NATO have a chance to reorganize themselves into something that could actually rival China. They already have the largest navy in the world by now and they are not done building up their strength. |
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| ▲ | drcongo 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Can you clarify which is which? | | |
| ▲ | sigmoid10 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Chinese propaganda seems to hit very hard these days. If you really don't know, you seriously need to check what media you are consuming. Yes, the US has huge problems, many old and some new, but on a serious technical level the answer is (at least for now) 100% clear. | | |
| ▲ | mysecretaccount 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > Chinese propaganda seems to hit very hard these days. Assuming that everyone who disagrees with you is a propagandized bot is a terrible way to live. You will not learn. | | |
| ▲ | sigmoid10 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Assuming that China is not officially a 100% authoritarian dictatorship takes some serious mental gymnastics or hardcore brainwashing by propaganda channels. In fact forget media manipulation. A simple look at what they did to their constitution would already tell you everything you need to know. The US might be moving in this same direction under Trump, but it sure as hell isn't there yet. And if they do try to do the same, there is a good chance for another civil war. So while China is already lost, there is still some level of hope for the US. |
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| ▲ | monadgonad 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | "Not about moral high ground. One's an ideology my morals agree with, one isn't." | | |
| ▲ | wiseowise 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Is believing people should have a choice a moral high ground now? | | |
| ▲ | modo_mario 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | You have a 2 party system where on many fronts both parties tow (almost) the same line and roughly behave like a oneparty system. | | |
| ▲ | NoGravitas 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | China has one proletarian party. The US has two bourgeois parties. One might think the ideal would be to have one bourgeois party, and one proletarian party, but that hasn't seemed to work out anywhere. | | | |
| ▲ | SmirkingRevenge 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | The two parties couldn't be more different today. Republicans are basically an authoritarian party that would be more at home in a place like Russia - or China - today. That being said, democracies are about generating consensus between factions with otherwise irreconcilable differences. There should be overlap on many fronts - that's kind of a feature, not a bug - at least in many cases. |
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| ▲ | kaoD 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | No, but believing our so-called "democracy" (quotes intended, read: "21st century western systems") is how you give people "a choice" is the moral high ground. That is your axiom, but it's often touted as a tautology. The name says "demos" and "kratos" but names are names, not facts. There are many ways to give people a choice and this one has proven to be quite ineffective at that, as it slowly devolved into a plutocracy/oligarchy. Iron law of oligarchy, yadda yadda. What they are very effective at though: crushing dissent, calming the masses with a reassuring illusion of choice, and touting itself as the "one true way". When I look at the outcomes I don't see any semblance of democracy, only a ritual dance/theatre show every 4 years. A farce as big as the "democratic" instruments on the PRC. There's a reason this "democracy" is very diligent at discouraging association and unionizing. Those give actual power to the people (and with power comes choice). That's dangerous. People might start believing they can actually influence the outcomes. "Don't blame me - I voted for Kodos" | | |
| ▲ | sofixa 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > our so-called "democracy" (quotes intended, read: "21st century western systems") Do not conflate the broken American political system, the semi-broken British one, and the whole rest of the "west". Each country has its own political system, and they are wildly different. > crushing dissent Democracies are good at crushing dissent? Compared to other political systems? That's just not true. All other political systems rely on universal truth and unwavering trust in a person / religion / clique of people, who can do no wrong and can never be criticised. > There's a reason this "democracy" is very diligent at discouraging association and unionizing What? You are probably talking about a specific democracy, and the most broken one at that. | | |
| ▲ | kaoD 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > and they are wildly different As someone from the "whole rest of the west", no, they're not different at all. Very minor details change, but the net outcome is the exact same and suffer from the exact same problems. You can't escape the iron law of oligarchy. > Democracies are good at crushing dissent? They're not only good: they are the best. You don't need to curb dissent by violence if you discourage dissent by social manipulation. It's the cheapest and most effective tactic: keeping the populace docile. If you manage to equate "democracy" (again, quotes intended) with democracy (lack of quotes intended), most of the work is already done. "What are you, antidemocratic!?" "Don't blame me - I voted for Kodos" There's a reason my country's system trembled when the bipartisan system was challenged as new parties emerged... but it was curbed within two legislatures without a single shot fired and now we're back to an even stronger bipartisan representation. Quite the fine job, actually. We even have a name for this: "the state's sewers". They're very effective. There's a reason the state's armed forces routinely infiltrate unions and other citizens participation platforms. | | |
| ▲ | sofixa 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > As someone from the "whole rest of the west", no, they're not different at all. Very minor details change, but the net outcome is the exact same and suffer from the exact same problems. Such as? There are countries such as Poland with a political duopoly, but in most European countries, there are multiple parties that work with or against each other. There are different coalitions with varying compromises between them. > They're not only good: they are the best. You don't need to curb dissent by violence if you discourage dissent by social manipulation. It's the cheapest and most effective tactic: keeping the populace docile. Nonsense, because autocracies do both, and the threat by violence is very real and makes sure that social manipulation is more effective. | | |
| ▲ | kaoD 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > There are different coalitions with varying compromises between them. They all failed and were subsumed by the two (read: one) big groups in Europe. Far left and libertarians were crushed in the past two legislatures. Now it's PfE's turn but the antibodies are already in the bloodstream (the two big groups are already signing their covenants to protect the oligarchy) and Trump did them dirty (they're now scrambling to distance themselvesb from USA's and Israel's ties) so they're DoA and will fail too. This said: I understand your points, and thanks for the civil discussion. |
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| ▲ | Jackpillar 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Democracy is a stretch |
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| ▲ | scyclow 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| As an American, I can conclusively say that we absolutely have no moral high ground whatsoever. But bringing the topic back to LLMs, I don't feel great about using an LLM that has a panic attack any time I ask about Tiananmen Square or Taiwanese sovereignty. |
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| ▲ | tw1984 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > I don't feel great about using an LLM that has a panic attack any time I ask about Tiananmen Square or Taiwanese sovereignty. well American censored LLMs that usually willing to take extreme efforts to convince me that there is no genocide in Gaza. the same American LLMs also insist that there are many human genders. | | |
| ▲ | scyclow 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I don't know what American LLMs you're using. Just asked Claude, which gives nuanced answers on both, but amounts to "It's contested, but numerous authoritative bodies say yes" and "it depends on your definition of gender". | | |
| ▲ | tw1984 a day ago | parent [-] | | when it comes to topics like genders, "it depends on your definition"
when it comes to topics like democracy and freedom, western definition is all you must depend on you don't see the problem? lol |
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| ▲ | nailer 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > I see an American believe they somewhat have the moral high ground over China The elected government of the US has the moral highground of over the regime that killed the KMT in it's weakened state after the KMT defeated Japan, went on a rampage against the educated classes, mowed down its own people with machineguns and tanks when they demanded a say in their own governments, and kidnaps people advocating for democracy to this day, including Jack Ma. > despite starting a new war... on behalf of Israel every six months. The war started when Hamas, funded by Iran, went on a murder and rape rampage against Israeli civilians. |
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| ▲ | iso1631 2 days ago | parent [-] | | The origins of this war date back decades, arguably far longer. | | |
| ▲ | nailer 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Yes, they started with Islamic colonization of the Middle East and North Africa in 650. |
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| ▲ | foobiekr 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| There’s no organ harvesting of a religious subgroup in America. |
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| ▲ | Daishiman 2 days ago | parent [-] | | No, there’s organ donor lists for which billionaires get to skip the line. | | |
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| ▲ | wiseowise 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| What makes you think they’re American? |
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| ▲ | srj 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| On the contrary, I find reading your own confused spin on morality here an interesting window into the effectiveness of propaganda. You're taking two oppressive authoritarian governments and elevating them above the US. |
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| ▲ | nipponese 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The U.S. is not the country conducting amoral behavior with terrorist regimes for oil, that’s China. We conduct amoral behavior with terrorist regimes for dollars. |
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| ▲ | Scroll_Swe 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I always find the China glazing online getting worse and worse. TikTok and Hasan has really turned the West against itself. |
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| ▲ | philipallstar 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| China having killed up to 50m of its own population in the 20th century through socialism, while America led the world in funding NATO, global scientific research, and global aid for decades buys America a lot of good grace. |
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| ▲ | glenstein 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| And by contrast what I find stunning is the inability to engage in meaningful comparative analysis of relative harms. There's a lot of spectacularly insightful attention to detail in so far as it mobilizes what aboutism arguments and then that attention mysteriously falls away when we ask questions like the extent to which these sides allow free press or democratic elections with multiple parties or permit fair trials. You used to not have to explain these things. |
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| ▲ | mrkramer 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| All empires are to some degree evil because their agenda is to dominate weaker peoples and nations. They almost all committed crimes against humanity and genocides if you look retrospectively from the todays point of view. Even our beloved Roman Empire that the Western civilization is built upon was genocidal empire. |
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| ▲ | benterix 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Not sure if we can call it "beloved". For sure respected for what it did to build the base of modern civilization, but we are aware of its dark sides. And probably Nero would be an excellent example of what can happen to the empire and its people when a crazy person becomes its ruler. |
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| ▲ | Der_Einzige 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| One province of China has enough hellish nightmarish bullshit going on caused by the CCP that we maintain total moral superiority over them. It’s not even a question to anyone except “fellow travelers”. |
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| ▲ | argentier 2 days ago | parent [-] | | is that you. Adrian Zenz? | | |
| ▲ | nikisil80 2 days ago | parent [-] | | thank god at least 1% of HN users aren't so heavily propagandized - makes me believe in the future a bit more. |
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| ▲ | Rover222 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Chinese citizens will go to jail if they are too critical of their own government. How hard is it for you to wrap your head around those implications? |
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| ▲ | SmirkingRevenge 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The moral high ground claims here can be generalized: Liberal democracies have moral high ground over authoritarian dictatorships (at least along that one dimension) The US is backsliding tragically (and stupidly) and may lose that moral high ground, but the rest of the western democracies will still have it |
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| ▲ | OCASMv2 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The Uyghur say hi. |
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| ▲ | hersko 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Talks about "mass propaganda." Thinks America is starting wars on behalf of Israel. LMAO |
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| ▲ | melagonster 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | catlover76 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | willsmith72 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | latexr 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > That doesn't mean it's positive in human rights Neither is the US, land of slaves, segregation, and the KKK. They did seem to get better there for a few of decades, but sure are working hard to return to their roots. | |
| ▲ | birdsongs 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > That doesn't mean it's positive in human rights Isn't the US building mass detention camps right now for all the brown people there? And arresting / detaining / demanding papers from any and everyone? With federal agents killing civilians? Don't get me wrong, China is also horrible here, they have their own camps. But pretending the US is positive wrt human rights is a wild take in 2026. | | |
| ▲ | Levitz 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | >Isn't the US building mass detention camps right now for all the brown people there? No, it is not, but the freedom of speech protections the US has (that China doesn't) allow for such commentary. | | | |
| ▲ | mapcars 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >Isn't the US building mass detention camps right now for all the brown people there? No? Its for illegal people, regardless of color. Just so happened that most illegals come from specific places | | | |
| ▲ | sam_goody 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > sn't the US building mass detention camps right now for all the brown people there? Why would you think that? > And arresting / detaining / demanding papers from any and everyone? I have lots of friends from outside the U.S. that come regularly and don't find it onerous. Maybe it depends where you are coming from? > With federal agents killing civilians? OK, I agree that there are issues, and even very serious ones. Obviously, not on the level of China, but still serious issues. Nonetheless, what you see on left leaning media is not representative of what is happening on the ground throughout the U.S. Not even close. IMO, the US is definitely positive wrt human rights. There are issues, but you can go to a No Kings protest, and live your life happily without issues, and it is hard to find another country that is nearly as forgiving. And it at least has people trying to spread concepts of individual liberty, vs most countries in Europe, almost all countries in Asia, and ALL Muslim countries, that are leaning to removing individual rights. |
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| ▲ | me551ah 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | With the number of wars that the US have waged over the years including in Vietnam, Iran and supporting Israel. I don’t think even the US has done a stellar job in defending human rights. If you meant American citizen human rights, then you’re correct. | | |
| ▲ | latexr 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > If you meant American citizen human rights, then you’re correct. Not even that. ICE has already killed US citizens, they no longer prohibit segregation, trans people were banned from the military, and many more. All of those affect American citizens. |
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| ▲ | tw1984 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > That doesn't mean it's positive in human rights How about your pack up your arrogance and stop defining human rights for me and other 1.4 billion Chinese? | | |
| ▲ | fisf 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Well, the National People's Congress / CCP define and frame that practically for you. It's not like 1.4 billion Chinese have much say in that. If I am wrong, please remind me again how much say Chinese people had on the escape hatches of Article 51 in your constitution. | | |
| ▲ | tw1984 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I guess Alex Pretti and Renee Good didn't get much say in whether they should be killed by the US federal government. Let me remind you that none of their killers wearing US federal agency uniforms have been charged. I thought their rights were covered by their constitution, that was a mistake. |
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| ▲ | OtomotO 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | How positive for the human rights of the people of invaded countries was the US? Ask around in Vietnam, Iraq, Syria and countless more countries around the world. | |
| ▲ | epolanski 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | FrojoS 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | subdude 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I agree, that's why Iran is correct to arm and defend themselves against Israel and the US. | |
| ▲ | samrus 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yeah, those 8 year old girls had been 2 weeks away from developing a nuke. Had been since 1997 im told |
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| ▲ | rhubarbtree 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | fastasucan 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Not very democratic to invade other countries on the whim of a president. | | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > they said democratic They didn't even say that. They only said China playing is "better than leaving everything to the US alone." | |
| ▲ | Cthulhu_ 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | For now indeed, the people that want to get rid of it are currently in power. The US was one of the first democracies in the world, and many countries followed suit. But the US hasn't kept up, and now the powers that be have exploited the weaknesses in the system. With arguably the biggest one being giving the president too much power (appointing supreme court justices, executive orders, etc). | | |
| ▲ | rhubarbtree a day ago | parent [-] | | I dunno, think it’s doing quite well. Just the people voted for someone who wants to end democracy. Now we see if the system is robust enough to prevent that, but it’s difficult when half the country votes for Trump. |
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| ▲ | 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | jack_pp 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Democracy in most of the countries is just theater. Trump promised no more wars iirc. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather live in a country without a million cameras that automatically fine me for crossing the street illegally but I don't actually deceive myself in thinking my vote counts for much. | | |
| ▲ | culi 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > I'd rather live in a country without a million cameras Are you talking about the US or China? https://deflock.org/ China at least banned the use of facial recognition in public spaces by their supreme court in 2021 (and then further strengthened the ban in 2024 and also got the PIPL). If you're thinking of the "social credit" system please know that that's just an online meme. China's credit score system is not even nationalized and not nearly as invasive as the US's credit score system, which can sometimes determine whether or not someone is allowed to buy a house. Besides their own credit score system, the other thing that sometimes gets labelled the "social credit system" was an attempt they had to track the behavior of business leaders and elected politicians. Basically anyone who holds social power but not the common person. This also never really took off and was not ever nationalized/centralized. | |
| ▲ | palata 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > I'd rather live in a country without a million cameras that automatically fine me for crossing the street illegally Agreed, but there again, the democracies have surveillance capitalism, it's not exactly like we're not being tracked. | |
| ▲ | phatfish 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | You let Trump and all the tech-bro shitheads win with that attitude unfortunately. Democracy is an ongoing battle. |
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| ▲ | cumshitpiss 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | annexrichmond 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| So you think the US should sit back and watch Iran develop nukes? Is that the “moral” thing to do? |
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| ▲ | itsdesmond 2 days ago | parent [-] | | The JCPOA was working fine. We discarded it for vanity and to create an opportunity for more war. That is obviously immoral. | | |
| ▲ | annexrichmond 2 days ago | parent [-] | | If it was working “fine” then why was Iran able to reach 60% enriched uranium and enough for 10 nuclear weapons if they were able to enrich further? | | |
| ▲ | itsdesmond 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | That enrichment occurred after Trump voluntarily exited the JCPOA. The IAEA reported no enrichment over the 3.67% threshold through 2018, then reported over 400kg at 60% in 2025, all created in the period after Trump pulled out. You are describing a consequence of ending the JCPOA. |
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