| ▲ | 0xDEAFBEAD 2 days ago |
| >The issue is that the way you're expected to criticize America from what I observed is along the lines of 'they mean well but...' Hard to think of any critique of the US I've seen on HN recently which acknowledges the possibility that we might mean well. Even during the Biden administration, right after we allocated billions of dollars to Ukraine, huge numbers of Europeans expressed an unfavorable view of the US: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2024/06/11/views-of-the-u... They call us warmongers and then wonder why we don't want to help them fight their war. Now they say they want to be buddies with China which has been actively helping Russia with arms. I don't think there is any point in the US trying to please Europe. And then you've got the Australians who express their burning hatred of the US for not giving more aid to Ukraine, while Australia's aid as a fraction of GDP is still sitting around 10-15% of that provided by the US. |
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| ▲ | roenxi 2 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| > And then you've got the Australians who express their burning hatred of the US for not giving more aid to Ukraine, while Australia's aid as a fraction of GDP is still sitting around 10-15% of that provided by the US. Which Australians are we talking about here? Australia, if pushed to the absolute limit might formally send a strongly worded letter to the US expressing concerns. They aren't particularly fussed about Ukraine, we've all spent decades politely accepting the US invading random countries for no obvious reason and in defiance of everyone's strategic interests. Australians clearly do not care if distant countries get invaded. |
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| ▲ | 0xDEAFBEAD 2 days ago | parent [-] | | It's a sentiment I've seen multiple times from Australians online, that Trump is bad for not giving more to Ukraine. See the Australian who chimed in on this discussion for example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45035076 Similarly, I saw a person from Italy who declared the US an "enemy of Europe" for not giving more to Ukraine, when the US has given far more than Italy. There's a professor with the last name O'Brien who constantly castigates the US for not giving more, when we gave far more than Ireland. We just have to stop the warmongering. It never achieves anything. | | |
| ▲ | roenxi 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Are we talking about rswail's comment? He seems to be framing the situation as a short-term aberration and trying to encourage the US to adopt policies he sees as sensible for them. That is hardly an expression of burning hatred. If only I had enemies so devoted to my success. Technically he didn't even say anything related to US activity in Ukraine either. He was pointing out that US policy related to international trade and oil was bad. Which is basically a non-controversial opinion as far as I know. | |
| ▲ | 8note 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Ive seen more than 2 nazi-sympathizers from the states, but i dont think that means americans are all nazis. youve seen 4ish people and you are extending that to tens or hundreds of millions? seems a bit silly to me |
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| ▲ | Matl 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > They call us warmongers and then wonder why we don't want to help them fight their war. Europeans helped when you called after 9/11.
Are you seriously arguing about being called warmongers considering what your government started in Iran?
(and btw screwed the global energy market) This lack of self awareness is what turns people away. |
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| ▲ | 0xDEAFBEAD 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | >Europeans helped when you called after 9/11. So how would you feel if you got labeled as warmongers for that help? You're welcome to call us warmongers. Just don't expect us to help you fight wars if you do. Libya was Europe's idea -- we helped when you called -- yet the US still gets blamed for it. If the US had surged more weapons to Ukraine (as some Europeans were requesting), thus provoking Russia to launch a nuke, we surely would've been blamed for that too. The pattern I've noticed is that anywhere the US has foreign policy involvement (including Europe), there are locals in that region who are both for and against said involvement. People who aren't knowledgeable about the region will generally not know many details, and simply say "oh, the US is involved in a war again". If that's how we're going to be judged, then yes, I want to be involved in fewer wars. And withdrawing from NATO will help with that objective. So I favor NATO withdrawal. | | |
| ▲ | Matl 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > Libya was Europe's idea. Hardly 'Europe's', it was the idea of some 'humanitarian interventionists' in the Obama admin and the then current president of France who wanted to cover up his corrupt dealings. For what it's worth, I am not a fan of NATO either, so we can agree on that. All US troops should imo immediately leave Europe and loose all access to military facilities on the continent. As for the whole warmongers thing, answer me two simple questions: 1. Was the 2003 Iraq war started based on false claims about WMDs? Yes/No? 2. Did you just attack Iran for no good reason? (Yes/No?) | | |
| ▲ | 0xDEAFBEAD 2 days ago | parent [-] | | >Hardly 'Europe's', it was the idea of some 'humanitarian interventionists' in the Obama admin and the then current president of France who wanted to cover up his corrupt dealings. You can see French and UK leadership were making moves before the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_... Obama's approach was referred to as "leading from behind". >For what it's worth, I am not a fan of NATO either, so we can agree on that. All US troops should imo immediately leave Europe and loose all access to military facilities on the continent. I'm glad we can agree on something. I find that a lot of Europeans are not willing to accept the logical implication of their stated beliefs. >As for the whole warmongers thing, answer me two simple questions: [...] I'm not sure why you're pushing this "warmongers" point. As I said, I'm an isolationist. I've left many comments here on HN about how I want the US to be more like Switzerland. The Swiss never do anything and thus they never get blamed for anything. The families of the thousands of Iranians slaughtered by the regime doubtless think that we are attacking Iran for a good reason. Same way the thousands of Ukrainians slaughtered by Russia probably thought our weapons deliveries were being given for a good reason. In any case we may be called "complicit" if we do not act -- the same arguments were used in the case of Libya. But we can't keep playing world police. We aren't very good at it, and it is not clear whether it is helpful. Not to mention the dubious ethics of getting involved in the affairs of other countries. You're either "complicit" in "propping up" bad regimes, or a "warmongering" "imperialist" who "destabilizes" them. There's no way to win. Given the choice, I prefer to be complicit. | | |
| ▲ | Matl 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > The families of the thousands of Iranians slaughtered by the regime doubtless think that we are attacking Iran for a good reason Regardless of the 'thousands of Iranians slaughtered by the regime' which is supposed to just be accepted as fact despite everyone citing some random number everytime, no they don't. Because the logic of 'we'll liberate you from oppression by bombing you' does nothing but unites Iranians more than they ever were united before. Or do you think the killing of schoolgirls by the US is welcomed by Iranians somehow? Honestly, I am speechless. | | |
| ▲ | 0xDEAFBEAD 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Why do you believe that the current Iranian regime prevents its people from accessing the internet? It's because a lot of the people hate the regime and want it gone. You can see that in activist spaces like the /r/NewIran subreddit or on X from accounts like https://x.com/__Injaneb96 that yes, they do very much welcome US intervention. Here's a video from a townhall in my parent's congressional district where some Iranian-Americans speak up on the war: https://old.reddit.com/r/NewIran/comments/1rbdxzb/democrat_c... It's quite similar to Ukrainians complaining about Putin. "My country sucks, come save me" is always a trap, because if you attempt to come "save" them you just get called a warmonger. | | |
| ▲ | andersonpico 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Oh no the great war crime of _getting called a warmonger_ for bombing children in schools and invading other countries... Your grievances with how you perceive other people opinion of the US are irrelevant when confronted with the warmorgering reality of american foreign policy, no matter how offended you feel on behalf of your favorite military industrial complex. | | |
| ▲ | 0xDEAFBEAD 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Sure, and the Ukrainians (sponsored by Europeans) are killing Russian civilians in Belgorod: https://www.economist.com/europe/2024/06/24/death-and-destru... This is the warmongering reality of the EU. First Libya, now this. Don't get offended, I'm just speaking facts. | | |
| ▲ | Matl 2 days ago | parent [-] | | You seem to think that there's some great agreement amongst Europeans about the foreign policies being pursued by European countries when there's not. Yes, I think European foreign policy has in many cases resulted in the deaths of innocent people and our leaders are "warmongers" for following them. See, it's not that hard.
I am not upset, because I can objectively look at the facts and say, yeah, you have a point.
I even upvoted you. The fact remains that the US has done this on a much larger scale. It's wrong in both cases. | | |
| ▲ | 0xDEAFBEAD a day ago | parent [-] | | So why doesn't Europe pull support for Ukraine then? I'm advocating that the US pull support. Why can't you advocate that EU pull support? |
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| ▲ | Matl 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Why do you believe that the current Iranian regime prevents its people from accessing the internet? In the middle of an unprovoked aggression, is it really that surprising that you might try to restrict channels your enemy might use? I don't think so. | | |
| ▲ | 0xDEAFBEAD a day ago | parent [-] | | Wouldn't enabling internet access allow Iranian citizens to speak against US strikes, if they are all against the strikes, as you believe? >In the middle of an unprovoked aggression, is it really that surprising that you might try to restrict channels your enemy might use? I don't think so. So wouldn't Ukraine also logically want to restrict internet access to its citizens in that case? |
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| ▲ | alfiedotwtf 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Just don't expect us to help you fight wars if you do. Back at you. I'm glad Europe, Asia, and Australia all said no to helping liberate oil from Iran. Also, it's so weird seeing Americans wanting to leave NATO because NATO didn't help invade Iran, whilst forgetting that NATO is a defensive pact. Han shot first :headdesk: | | |
| ▲ | 0xDEAFBEAD 2 days ago | parent [-] | | >I'm glad Europe, Asia, and Australia all said no to helping liberate oil from Iran. I didn't expect any help from them. >Also, it's so weird seeing Americans wanting to leave NATO because NATO didn't help invade Iran That's not why I want to leave NATO. >whilst forgetting that NATO is a defensive pact. It didn't look very defensive when the Europeans dragged NATO into Libya. | | |
| ▲ | wat10000 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Nobody got "dragged" in. Being that NATO is a defensive pact, no country was under any obligation to participate. There is exactly one time in history when a NATO country has actually invoked the treaty that requires help from other members, and I'm sure you know which country that was. |
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| ▲ | wat10000 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | There's a big difference between helping an ally that's been attacked or intervening in a civil war, and attacking countries for no good reason at all. Afghanistan and Libya don't merit the "warmonger" label, but Iraq and Iran do. I don't think there's any equivalent on the European side in recent times. |
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| ▲ | 8note 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | the US dodnt want help after 9/11 NATO insisted on helping | | |
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| ▲ | OtomotO 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > They call us warmongers and then wonder why we don't want to help them fight their war. There is a huge difference between attacking foreign nations because of oil... Oh, pardon me, because of... Geopolitical interests... Oh, pardon me... In the name of democracy and self-defense when you're being attacked (such as Ukraine). We came to help you after 9/11, when for some reason you invaded Iraq although Osama Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda had taken responsibility... But sure, think that you're white guardians of the flame of freedom and democracy all you want! You're in exactly the same ballpark as China and Russia, they're just without the Hollywood propaganda. |
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| ▲ | wat10000 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| "They call us warmongers for carrying out an unprovoked invasion, and then wonder why we don't want to help them resist an unprovoked invasion." Think about this for just three seconds, I'm begging you. |
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| ▲ | 0xDEAFBEAD 2 days ago | parent [-] | | The phrase "warmonger" doesn't specify anything about the nature of the war, or the reason it was started. It's a very simpleminded "war=bad". If that's how we will be judged, fine. As soon as you use the phrase "unprovoked" then you start getting into messy details. Are we so sure that the war in Ukraine was not provoked by NATO expansion? Are we so sure that the war in Iran was not provoked by Iran's actions against Israel or against its own people? The ideologue doesn't like details. They prefer to see the world in black and white. | | |
| ▲ | wat10000 2 days ago | parent [-] | | warmonger - noun: one who urges or attempts to stir up war And to preempt the inevitable "the dictionary isn't always how people use it" response, this is in fact how everyone uses the word. So yes, it's very much tied to the nature of the war and the reason it was started. Attacking Iran for no particular reason is warmongering. Defending Ukraine from invasion is not. "Unprovoked" can be difficult but I don't think it actually is here. Yes, you can list reasons. But even if you believe the wars' proponents, the justification isn't there. It's like if I tap someone on the nose and they blow my head off. Was there some provocation? Technically, yes. Does the killing count as "provoked"? Not really. That word carries an implication of sufficient, justified provocation, not just "something happened." Did NATO expansion provoke the invasion of Ukraine? Maybe. Is that sufficient to say the invasion was "provoked"? No, not even close. Similar for the justifications given for Iraq and Iran. | | |
| ▲ | 0xDEAFBEAD a day ago | parent [-] | | We'll be called warmongers regardless. E.g. many in this thread suggest all US Middle East activity has been warmongering, even though the Gulf War, for example, was fairly similar to Ukraine in the sense of a powerful state invading its weaker neighbor. |
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