Remix.run Logo
timrogers 10 hours ago

Tim from the Copilot coding agent team here. We've now disabled these tips in pull requests created by or touched by Copilot, so you won't see this happen again for future PRs.

We've been including product tips in PRs created by Copilot coding agent. The goal was to help developers learn new ways to use the agent in their workflow. But hearing the feedback here, and on reflection, this was the wrong judgement call. We won't do something like this again.

burnte 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> We've now disabled these tips in pull requests created by or touched by Copilot, so you won't see this happen again for future PRs.

It's appreciated, but these weren't tips, these were ads. Tips are "Save time with keyboard shortcuts" or "Check out the latest features under 'Whats New' in the help menu!" When you name other products, that's an ad.

ChadNauseam 4 hours ago | parent [-]

That doesn't really make sense. So it's an ad for raycast? But raycast said they didn't know about it. To me the explanation makes perfect sense. "You can use this tool with raycast" seems like a very reasonable tip.

burnte 44 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

> That doesn't really make sense. So it's an ad for raycast?

It's an ad for using CoPilot and for Raycast.

> But raycast said they didn't know about it.

If I buy a billboard that tells people to go eat at a nearby restaurant, that's ad regardless of whether or not the restaurant knows that I bought that ad.

> To me the explanation makes perfect sense. "You can use this tool with raycast" seems like a very reasonable tip.

Raycast is a paid product. Even though they have a free tier, they only have that to get people to use and like the tool enough to pay for it. They want you to use Raycast so you use CoPilot and pay for it. It's an ad.

NekkoDroid 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Cambridge Dictionary defines and ad as: a picture, short film, song, etc. that tries to persuade people to buy a product or service

My short search really didn't bring up any definition that included the need of the product/service owner knowning that the advertising is happening.

And the message very much qualifies as trying to bring people to buy raycast (or at minimum to use it which usually want people to also pay later on).

ChadNauseam 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I don't see the point in arguing about the definition, but I don't think the message was trying to persuade people to buy raycast. What interest would microsoft have in that? Rather, it seems to me like it was trying to tell raycast users that they can use copilot through raycast.

Regardless, even if the dictionary definition of an ad doesn't require that the ad be created intentionally, it's still the case that if you say "ad" everyone will assume you mean something that was intentionally created to sell a product or service. I recommend checking out this classic post about the noncentral fallacy: http://worstargumentintheworld.com

skywhopper 40 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Dictionary definitions are not helpful in this sort of discussion. The exact definition of “ad” is not the point.

AmazingTurtle 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Bet their internal "tips team" used an LLM to generate "useful tips" for their coding agent system ;)

johnnyanmac 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Yup, broken windows all the way down, to put it kindly

skywhopper 41 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Tips are also not acceptable to add to PR text. It’s like the definition of a “weed”. A “tip” in the GitHub UI would make sense. But “tips” injected into my own PR text become unwelcome ads. In any case, what may be helpful “tips” today are only a gateway to straight up paid ads tomorrow. After all, I get told all the time by adtech folks that actually, the ads and all the tracking behind them are good because aren’t I glad the ads are relevant to my interests and that I’m supporting small businesses online whose shops can only exist because of the ad infrastructure. To which I say, no, they aren’t, and that’s a lie.

justinclift 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> We won't do something like this again.

Microsoft has been pulling user hostile crap for decades, so either "we" or "like this" (or both) is probably not super accurate. ;)

namrog84 an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Having worked in such environments. This particular team will try not to do it again But many other teams didn't make the commitment or learn any lesson. And even the original team will churn over people and people will forget or new leadership comes in.

I believe they were being sincere but reality is often more complicated than 1 persons statement.

vdfs 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

We will never do something like this unless we get caught

hightrix 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Just to add to the feedback.

No one, anywhere, ever wants this or anything like it. Do not inject anything that is outside of the context of the session, ever.

This is how you get your software banned at large companies.

Question for you, did anyone on the team really not push back? Does the team really think anyone wants ads in their copilot output? If the answer to both of these is no, you have a team full of yes men, not actual developers.

creativeSlumber 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> did anyone on the team really not push back?

This is the real question. If they are serious about not doing something like this again, they NEED to look at what process failed and let something like this get proposed, designed, implemented and pushed to production. Usually things get reviewed at each stage. Did the people who pushed back on this get steam rolled? If no one pushed back, that's an even serious culture question and the entire org would need training.

A serious "we won't do it again", needs to be accompanied by a COE on this for identifying what went wrong, and identifying what guardrails can be put in place and then actually implementing them.

QuantumGood 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> did anyone on the team really not push back?

That's a tough one. In the big meeting? In the small meeting? "Officially" push back? Encouraged to make the push back unofficial? Etc. Even just internally, it can be hard to quantify. From internal > external, more so.

sneak 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

They already know that nobody wants it. They don’t care.

hedora 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Wait! I think most people missed your "touched by Copilot" disclaimer.

Over on twitter, someone from MS said that Copilot can modify PRs simply because they were mentioned?

I've been using GitHub since it was new and heavily rely on coding agents for development, but that's an insanely large security hole. There's clearly confusion about what copilot is and is not able to edit elsewhere in this thread.

I'm backing up old repos now, and am no longer trusting your service as an archive. I'm wondering if the world needs to fork things like npm and vs code to save itself from the supply chain attacks these sort of product management decisions will enable.

I already moved active development elsewhere when you dropped below three nines back in 2024-2025.

naikrovek 3 hours ago | parent [-]

If you don’t want copilot to work on your PRs, don’t ask it to.

manmal 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I would expect it to comment, not alter the code?

naikrovek 23 minutes ago | parent [-]

It won’t unless you ask it to. It will review your PRs and it will create PRs if you don’t turn those things off, I believe, but it won’t edit or modify any PR.

My employer pushes copilot quite hard and I’ve never seen copilot do anything without me telling it to act in some way.

nazgul17 5 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> The goal was to help developers

Is Microsoft receiving payments for these?

nrds 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> We won't do something like this again.

This has just as much value as when an LLM claims it won't make a certain mistake again, and for exactly the same reason.

jffry 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> We've been including product tips in PRs created by Copilot coding agent

If the PR is wholly authored by Copilot I get the spirit of this, although maybe not the best implementation. And "tips" like this that look like an ad for a product _definitely_ feel like an enshittification betrayal of the user, even if it was a genuine recommendation and not a paid advertisement.

In the OP's situation, where where Copilot was summoned to fix some thing within a human-authored PR, irrelevant modification of the PR description to insert unrelated content is specifically egregious. Copilot can easily include the tip in its own comment, so I'm curious why it was decided to edit the description of a PR instead.

plasma 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

To be honest, just a user here, it’s only recently (like a week?) you can ask Copilot to edit an existing PR, historically it’s had to open a new one (that merged back to original PR) or it had to make it to begin with, I can see this unintentionally happening as part of this improvement to edit existing PRs

skywhopper 36 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Nah, PR text is a completely inappropriate place for a tip to appear. A PR description should describe the contents of the PR, not include unrelated, unsolicited advice. It’d be like submitting a bug fix, and saying “this PR fixes bug X, and also, have you considered using a different linter in this project?” Completely inappropriate.

TonyStr 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Thank you, Tim.

You should gather together your team and look through the responses to this thread together. There are a lot of emotions in these comments, but it could be a very constructive experience if you're able to put that aside. I'm sure you're aware that customer-sentiment toward Github has been poor lately, but these commenters are your customers. I believe Github has the potential to win back loyalty, but it will require a deeper understanding of your customer segment.

Aachen 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Tip: tomatoes are on offer at Contoso now!

(Now imagine this edited into the post you just made for a more-apt comparison)

If you do work at MS, I cannot believe any person involved legit thought it was "just a tip and nobody will mind their posts being edited to include product recommendations". I don't know what other parts of your comment are honest if the core statement is false

tyleo 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I’m curious how the decision to include ads like this was made. Is that something you can share?

shimman 9 hours ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

ncr100 7 hours ago | parent [-]

MS was deemed a Monopoly I believe around '99 and was not broken up, was instead given behavioral edicts by the court.

Microsoft owns GitHub where many of these ethical violations are easily found and were perpetrated.

I speculate the cultural safety around that monopoly-power for corporate-benefit behavior could still be present and accepted for negotiations between MS and acquisition targets.

moconnor 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Whoever did this must have realised the users will hate it. So… is this just demonstrating that the internal culture emphasises other things than user happiness?

I also note that ”for PRs” - will we see these appearing as comments in generated code?

odst 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"We won't do something like this again"

Sureeeeee

wartywhoa23 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Will surely do something like another thing nobody wanted or needed instead.

nikisweeting 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I know this is not the right place for this but if there's any chance you could send this link to someone internal at Github who knows how to fix this, that would be awesome! https://github.com/orgs/community/discussions/70577

It's only semi-related in that it's a similar string thats appearing in millions of repos due to a Github feature change, but it's now polluting Google search results with tons of duplicate URLs unnecessarily. Issue has 100+ votes but has been entirely ignored by Github team.

stackghost 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Hi Tim,

I see that you're a product manager at GitHub. Can you explain why you thought this feature was value-added?

naikrovek 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

We don’t like ads, my man. There are too many MBAs in that company now. MBA holders lose contact with reality about halfway through that degree. Do not listen to them. They will destroy any product they touch if given enough time.

markkitti 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Thank you for listening.

7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
AlexandrB 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Can I get that in writing in the ToS/EULA please?

m3kw9 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Who approved this dumbaz move? It’s clearly an Ad and calling it a tip is insulting

poszlem 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Shockingly poor judgment.

JohnTHaller 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

For what it's worth, I appreciate that you took the time to address the issue and respond here, Tim.

explodes 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Huge miss. Again. And again. And again.

Henchman21 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

WE won't see it happen again ... UNTIL IT DOES! You guys are disingenuous actors. Bad faith and all that.

See, what I expect is that you or someone on your team will move on internally, and then all promises made will be not just forgotten, but tossed aside with relief. Because this is The Way within MS now. All projects are just fodder for your CV, and when you get that paybump/position you want some other completely unscrupulous actor will join and implement the same. exact. thing.

Edit: Wow this is a shitshow. It's almost like you dumb fuckers have burned up ALL THE GOODWILL YOU HAD LEFT.

cute_boi 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You may not want to do it, but will Microslop leadership agree? I don’t think this problem can be solved while leadership is focused only on adding more slop.

QuadmasterXLII 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

“We won’t do something like this again”

A verifiable claim! I put it at 75% you totally will, but if any manifolders think I’m full of it it should converge to something less cynical

https://manifold.markets/HastingsGreer/will-microsoft-copilo...

semiquaver 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Don’t worry, some alternate interpretation of the words “we”, “do”, or “like this” will allow a welch.

mananaysiempre 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> A verifiable claim!

Once you put a deadline on it. As stated I don’t think it is.

malfist 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I mean its microslop, it'll probably be back by the end of the week. They only know how to let people to say "yes" or "ask again later"

instakill 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[flagged]

dang 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47576084 and please don't post so aggressively. I'm sure you don't intend to, but it has a strong negative effect on HN threads, and we're trying for something different here.

You may not feel you owe $BigCoEmployee better (though chances are, said person is just as much a community member here as you and the other users slamming them are), but you owe this community better if you're participating in it.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

wswope 6 hours ago | parent [-]

GP did not personally attack or denigrate the person they were replying to.

As the dozens of other comments show, the overwhelming majority of us do not believe the root commentors claims, and this PM quite objectively does not have the leverage and authority to back their claim that they won’t let this happen again.

It’s hard not to read your conception of “trying for something different” as granting undue credulity to a transparently dishonest corporate actor.

dang 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I understand, and I don't want to see ads in such contexts either. But "nobody believes this" is of course a personal attack, and "you don't have the power to [do what you just said you will do]" is pretty aggressive too.

The impulse to hit back against what is perceived as a "transparently dishonest corporate actor" is natural and human. I feel it also, and in fact my first response when I read such comments is always an adrenaline surge and the peculiar pleasure-hit of righteous indignation. So yes, I know where these feelings are coming from; we all do.

The problem is that in the HN context, (1) there is a human being at the other end of the account being attacked, and (2) there are orders of magnitude more attackers. In practice, this can easily turn into a mob dynamic and in fact a mass beating, if a virtual one. That's bad in its own right and bad for the community here.

Edit - past explanations in case relevant:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28821698

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28647036

more at https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

Dylan16807 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I would say that "nobody believes this" would usually be a personal attack by default but when it's followed up with "you do not have the power to prevent it" it's not a personal attack.

wswope 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> The impulse to hit back against what is perceived as a "transparently dishonest corporate actor" is natural and human.

Honest question: If we agree that the transparent dishonesty and the lynch mob behavior are both undesirable, how do you think the two should be balanced in operative terms?

I don’t want to put words in your mouth — but are you saying you won’t allow direct pushback to dishonest corporate actors??

My view is that healthy discourse requires balance and proportionality: flagrant dishonesty, as is the case here, should license a proportional degree of pushback.

I don’t agree at all that “nobody believes this” is quite the personal attack you’re making it out to be, but I don’t care to debate that at length either.

dang an hour ago | parent [-]

Two thoughts:

(1) the long-term health of the community has to be the priority here. Otherwise it won't survive—all the default internet vectors point the other way;

(2) it's possible to push back, express skepticism, etc., in way that respects the person on the other side of the conversation and isn't just venting the impulse to shame the other.

You guys (<-- by which I really mean all of us in this community) need to remember that you're not just addressing a $BigCo abstraction when you post replies to someone else's comments. You're talking to an individual human. Sure, they may be working for a large and powerful company; but in the HN context the power dynamic is actually quite the reverse. If you put yourself in their shoes for a minute, it shouldn't be so hard to recognize that.

Like I said upthread, I agree with you on the underlying issue. But we also have to preserve the container, and the latter has to take precedence.

wswope an hour ago | parent [-]

It’s not about bigco at all in my eyes.

At the end of the day, if you want intellectual curiosity and openness, bad-faith dishonesty needs to be weeded out; thought-provoking and honest conversation should be promoted, regardless of where the contributor is employed.

The problem isn’t working for Microsoft. The problem is dishonesty.

You’re treating the root comment with kid gloves because it’s from a Microsoft employee. Please don’t do that.

bilekas 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> But hearing the feedback here, and on reflection, this was the wrong judgement call

Hi Tim.. Why is there no pushback from grounded individuals against these decisions ?

ryandrake 7 hours ago | parent [-]

I'm sure there was push-back, but only inside the minds of the rank-and-file. Nobody would have dared to actually speak out against it, as it would be career limiting. That's probably how a lot of these boneheaded decisions happen: It's an Emperor's New Clothes situation, nobody speaks up, and then the emperor is satisfied that the decision is great.

vegadw 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Hi Tim, it's Jim, your manager. Please stick to the officially released statement:

"We tried to put ads in our product and it made people upset, upon realizing that this has angered our already paying users, we realize we should try again in a month. We're also aware GitHub is down, and are doing our best to deliver you a single 9 of reliability"

This helps us establish a strong, cohesive brand image inline with what customers of GitHub expect.

---

Edit: I don't mean anything bad to Tim here, seems like a nice guy with good technical experience, etc. Rather, I'm expressing the almost comical extent to which I and - to the best of my understanding - many other community members see GitHub in a very negative light now, being unreliable and, as the article points out, enshitified. So, this is at GitHub, Not Tim, it's just addressed to him for the bit.

Tim, I do actually appreciate you responding to this thread and if you do have the power to make things better, using that power to do so.

7 hours ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
bitdeep 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> We won't do something like this again.

It's like you hiding shorts on youtube.

mghackerlady 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

For some reason I don't believe you. When you do things like this, you lose trust. Work to get it back

monegator 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> We won't do something like this again.

it won't be an ad. It won't be a tip. It will be a suggestion! Recommendation! Opportunity!

chrisnight 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Be like Discord, call it a “Quest”.

semiinfinitely 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[flagged]

itomato 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[flagged]

tyleo 9 hours ago | parent [-]

This feels a bit threatening. Just want to call it out. I also disagree with the decision but I respect that someone came forward and took responsibility. That helps build our shared understanding of what happened. It’s hard and not something we should discourage.

itomato 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I feel threatened by Product placements disguised as "Tips".

We're not remotely even.

g051051 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

How is that "threatening"? Genuinely curious.

itomato 31 minutes ago | parent [-]

And why are they so “threatened”? Are they in the Core AI Org?

buildbot 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

dang 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Please don't attack people for showing up to engage in discussion like this. I'm sure you don't intend to, but it quickly becomes part of mob behavior. We don't want that on HN for obvious reasons, and I'm sure nobody intends it, exactly, but it happens all too easily anyhow.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

buildbot 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Absolutely my bad it came across like this.

dang 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I appreciate the reply. As mentioned, it happens unintentionally. One way to describe the (desired) HN community is everyone learning together how to avoid unintended effects.

johnnyanmac 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> everyone learning together how to avoid unintended effects.

Okay, but when will Microsoft?

Or is it a more charitable interpretation to suggest they did intend this to be the effect?

dang an hour ago | parent [-]

No, I wouldn't argue that. The point is we need to do this for ourselves, regardless of what some company or other group of people do.

john_strinlai 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>It’s rather bold to post here…

it is rather nice, honestly. would you prefer to scream into the void and not get any response at all?

an open line of communication with the responsible people seems like literally the best possible option, why are you actively discouraging it?

>Maybe you all want to talk to Microsoft PR/legal before posting?

you would rather not hear anything, or get word-salad legalese that doesnt mean anything? how exactly would that be better?

buildbot 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I’m not intentionally discouraging it.

The responses are affecting my impression of Microsoft and Github extremely negatively. I don’t think I am alone.

It’s already pretty word salad legalese in my opinion, at least from Github.

johnnyanmac 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>would you prefer to scream into the void and not get any response at all?

At this point, yes. What has false platitudes done except cause more in-fighting?

>an open line of communication with the responsible people

And here's how the in-fighting begins. I'm not falling for the "they responded on social media. They're just like us!" anymore.

I don't want words, I want actions. Tired of playing whack a mole.

>you would rather not hear anything, or get word-salad legalese that doesnt mean anything?

Hearing nothing doesn't waste my time.

john_strinlai 2 hours ago | parent [-]

>Hearing nothing doesn't waste my time.

if not wasting time is your goal, several layers deep into the comments of a hackernews post is probably not the correct place to be.

johnnyanmac 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Perhaps. But I still do find insight in seeing the vibes of the community. Not as much from corporate PR.

martinwoodward 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

We are not training on the contents of private repos, but we do plan on training on usage data with Copilot unless you opt out before April 24. Details here: https://github.blog/news-insights/company-news/updates-to-gi...

That post has a link to the FAQ which might also be helpful: https://github.com/orgs/community/discussions/188488

coldpie 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> We are not training on the contents of private repos

Supremely ethical of you to ignore the license terms of open source code, but respect the license for proprietary code.

ncr100 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This too is creepy.

The behavioral impositions by the court in the United States versus Microsoft trial discourage it from Monopoly behavior by opening third-party apis to competitors.

Q: Will Microsoft share its access to users private repos where they have not opted out of this training via its GitHub subsidiary, with third parties (eg OpenAI and Anthropic), in the spirit of its loss to the United States during its trial for Monopoly behavior?

Eg ethically today, Microsoft may be able to be argued to be monopolizing user data for its own AI tooling advantage.

pesus 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Why such strong opposition to getting user consent before doing any of this? Not respecting consent seems to be a very common theme with MS these days, and it really doesn't reflect well on the company or you personally.

johnnyanmac 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Bypassing consent has been a very pervasive theme in tech and beyond this decade.

hightrix 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Opt out is the same as forcing this on people that don’t want it. You know this.

Microslop proving their name time and time again.

ulbu 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

why not make it opt-in?

and I wonder if this opt-out applies to data we stored under your umbrella before having opted-out.

jasonjmcghee 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What am I supposed to opt out of? The only setting in "Privacy" is "Suggestions matching public code" which is blocked and seems wholly unrelated to this.

chaps 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

How much has Microsoft paid you to sell your soul?

microtonal 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

IANAL I wonder how that is legal in the EU, at least for private individuals, since under the GDPR you need consent for collecting such data. (A timed opt-out is not consent.)

voganmother42 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Opt out is horse shit

buildbot 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Yes or No: Hypothetically I put customer data in a private repo, a single file. I use copilot to analyze the file, submitting its contents to that backend. This is the only thing in the repo. Is that data collected and trained on? If the answer is not no, you are lying about what this opt in is.

tyleo 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I’ve felt similarly about moving off GitHub. I bought a small 5U server rack years ago for my home network setup.

I’m considering getting a 1U device to host my own git server. I feel like if I move off, I should do it generally vs just moving to another provider who may also pull shenanigans.

justinclift 8 hours ago | parent [-]

For low-resource usage, Forgejo has a good reputation: https://forgejo.org

ie you can run it effectively on even a Raspberry Pi

Remember to ensure you have proper backups regardless of whatever you decide to host it on. :)

monegator 6 hours ago | parent [-]

i had a gitea instance in a beaglebone black! Self hosting can have really low requirements (now it's a much beefier banana pi R3 router, but there are many containers running on it)