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Klaster_1 4 hours ago

I don't want a "PC future" where you can't just install software without OS vendor blessing.

direwolf20 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This is why Valve invested so much in Linux. They saw the writing on the wall of Microsoft becoming Apple (but shittier). Now they have an alternative. If Microsoft charges a 30% tax on all Steam transactions and won't let Steam run unless they do that, Valve can heavily push Linux and Steam Machine sales.

pjmlp 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

And yet they failed to get game devs to natively target SteamOS.

As long as they depend on Proton, they haven't fully solved their problem.

anonymous908213 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I'm not sure how they could have failed that if that was never their goal in the first place. The entire point of Proton is that the Win32 API is infinitely more stable and worthwhile to target than anything Linux distros offer, and that the financial incentives aren't there for developers to 5x their platform distribution effort to reach 1% more users. An approach that relies on developers doing that would never work, and fortunately for Valve that isn't their approach.

TheCraiggers 2 hours ago | parent [-]

You're thinking of now. Proton didn't exist yet the first time they tried Steam OS.

To be fair to Valve though, back then, there was a lot of movement in direct ports for Linux games. Humble Bundle (before they were bought) was spending real money on it and companies like Feral sprang up to help with titles like Mordor. It looked like there was going to be some real change.

But for various reasons the momentum waned. One of those reasons might be the existence of Proton itself. Some people were very against it because they thought it might lead to less native ports.

anonymous908213 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Oh, right. I completely forgot SteamOS 1 existed, haha.

pjmlp 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Which is exactly my point, keeping game studios on Windows + Visual Studio acomplishes nothing in regards to cut the dependency on Windows gaming.

TheCraiggers 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I wouldn't say that. Software support for Linux is a chicken and egg problem. No software because there's no users because there's no software.

Proton helps fix the users part. If a critical mass is accomplished, that can have real long-term impact.

pjmlp an hour ago | parent [-]

Helps as much as it helped OS/2.

flohofwoe 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Tbh, why bother?

kernel32+user32+gdi32+d3d[11|12]+dxgi is a pretty great API abstraction for game development. And unlike Linux desktop APIs the Win32 APIs are actually stable, so those games will also work in 5 years, and most importantly, performance is the same or better than on Windows. It's unlikely that game devs directly targeting Vulkan would do any better, and when using a high level engine, any layering overhead in Proton is negligible anyway. And don't even get me started about the state of audio APIs on Linux ;)

Also don't underestimate the amount of workarounds and tweaks that (most likely) go into Proton for games that make poor system API use. Without Proton those game-specific hacks would need to go into MESA, Wayland, X11 or various system audio libraries. At least Proton is one central place to accumulate all the game-specific warts in some dusty corner of their code base.

TL;DR: just think of Proton as an extremely low level and slim cross-platform API for games (not all that different than SDL), and suddenly it makes a lot of sense. And I bet that in 5..10 years Windows will have regressed so much that it might actually be better to run games through a Proton-like shim even on Windows (assuming Windows hasn't become 'yet another Linux distro' by then anyway) ;)

Const-me 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> run games through a Proton-like shim even on Windows

Already happening, to an extent. Specifically, modern Intel GPUs do not support DirectX 9 in hardware, yet legacy apps run fine. The readme.txt they ship with the drivers contains a paragraph which starts with the following text: “SOFTWARE: dxvk The zlib/libpng License” DXVK is a library which implements Direct3D on top of Vulkan, and an important component of SteamOS.

pjmlp 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

With game studios using Windows + Visual Studio, what a win!

flohofwoe 2 hours ago | parent [-]

VS2026 is actually quite decent again (surprising tbh), but the good thing today is that a lot more UI apps support Linux than 20 years ago. E.g. I would just give my artists a Linux desktop running Blender, and generally test on a connected min-spec PC (also for the devs even if they are working on a high-end Windows PC in VStudio). E.g. similar to console-development, the low-end PC is essentially the devkit. Also has the advantage that there will be no performance surprises on release when most gamers try to run the game on their laptop or RTX2060 ;)

One thing I would definitely do is to replace MSVC with Clang, MSVC is just too far behind and it almost looks like MS abandondend it.

LtWorf 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Try running a directx 5 game and let me know how it goes.

flohofwoe 2 hours ago | parent [-]

29 years is a lot more than the 5.. years time window I'm talking about. 3 decades is basically "I will need an emulator for that" ;)

But I think even a lot of D3D9 games should still work, and that's 2002 stuff. Also try running a 1997 Linux game binary on a modern Linux distro without recompiling, I doubt that's works all that well...

palata 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> As long as they depend on Proton, they haven't fully solved their problem.

Maybe not, but they fully solved my problem with games, which was that I could not play on Linux. I started playing again just because of the SteamDeck, I think it's a pretty big achievement :-).

pjmlp 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Hardly any different than running MAME.

palata 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Never heard of MAME before :-)

sofixa 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Microsoft becoming Apple (but shittier)

At least Microsoft haven't fallen so low as to fail basic design principles like having transparent on top of transparent buttons, having disappearing controls depending on window size (scrollbars), or having corners so rounded that the click to drag mostly being outside the actual window.

The Windows 11 UI is annoying, but at least it doesn't look like a kid's toy.

flohofwoe 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> At least Microsoft haven't fallen so low as to fail basic design principles like having transparent on top of transparent buttons

That's just because Microsoft has been there done that already 2 decades ago ;) (IIRC in Windows Vista).

Same with the fine-grained in-your-face permission popups. Introduced by Microsoft in Vista, copied by Apple in Mojave ;)

JCattheATM 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> At least Microsoft haven't fallen so low as to fail basic design principles like having transparent on top of transparent buttons,

They did that but made it work well all the way back with Windows 7, maybe even Vista.

direwolf20 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Apple's bad ideas look ugly. Microsoft's bad ideas lock you out of your computer, delete your files and give the undeleted files to the FBI.

palata 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Same, but my PC runs on Linux so I don't feel threatened.

I feel like at some point normies may end up just using iPadOS or Android as a "convergent" device: a tablet/phone that they can plug into a docking station and use as a computer.

I am sort of hoping that it will work with something like GrapheneOS, so that I will be able to benefit from it on my phone.

netdevphoenix 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Neither do I. But with Windows slipping badly, Google could start encroaching on their core tech.

kace91 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Linux seems to be gaining a lot of traction, both with the fall of windows and gaming being more than feasible.

It makes sense for the tech savvy option to succeed, now that personal computing is disappearing. Average folks won’t use a windows/macbook, they’ll use phones and tablets.

My only concern is ending in a macOS+asahi situation where supporting a single device requires mountains of effort.

pjmlp 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The cycling speech since Window XP Toy's R US L&F days, unfortunely.

Less fragmentation, more focus, OEM support on devices selling on regular stores is needed, otherwise we won't get away from the yearly meme.

flohofwoe 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> otherwise we won't get away from the yearly meme

What's different in the last decade is that Windows is on an undeniable quality downward spiral, it's simply not important anymore for Microsoft.

E.g. desktop Linux doesn't even need to improve, it just needs to wait for Windows to become worse ;)

pjmlp 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Unless it becomes available for normies to buy laptops with it pre-installed at Saturn, Media Market, FNAC, Cool Blue, and co, it won't matter.

They aren't going to buy them from Tuxedo.

flohofwoe 2 hours ago | parent [-]

"Normies" buy smartphones and maybe a tablet, neither of those has Windows preinstalled either.

pjmlp an hour ago | parent [-]

Available at Saturn, Media Market, FNAC, Cool Blue show floor.

flohofwoe 38 minutes ago | parent [-]

...and a market share of 0.02% ;)

https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/tablet/worldwide

(I guess those 'Windows tablets' are running under convertible laptops or something...)

pjmlp 25 minutes ago | parent [-]

Where do you think normies that don't live in cities with Apple stores, or with salaries unable to afford Apple tax, get their smartphones and tablets?

I have made zero mentions of Windows tablets, that market died with Windows 8, replaced by 2-1 laptops.

Loughla 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The fall of windows and Linux gaining traction.

I've seen that written on here, Reddit, /., digg, hell even on usenet back in the day. . . .

kace91 13 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Yes, but have you seen you real life non tech friends move to Linux?

I’m seeing it now, and this is new.

LorenDB 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

And yet it's undeniable that 2025 had some of the biggest Linux hype in recent times:

- Windows 10 went EOL and triggered a wave of people moving to Linux to escape Windows 11 - DHH's adventures in Linux inspired a lot of people (including some popular coding streamers/YouTubers) to try Linux - Pewdiepie made multiple videos about switching to Linux and selfhosting - Bazzite reported serving 1 PB of downloads in one month - Zorin reported 1M downloads of ZorinOS 18 in one month and crossed the 2M threshold in under 3 months - I personally recall seeing a number of articles from various media outlets of writers trying Linux and being pretty impressed with how good it was - And don't forget Valve announced the Steam Machine and Steam Frame, which will both run Linux and have a ton of hype around them

In fact, I think that we will look back in 5 or 10 years and point at 2025 as the turning point for Linux on the desktop.