Remix.run Logo
Windows 11's Patch Tuesday nightmare gets worse(windowscentral.com)
76 points by 01-_- 6 hours ago | 83 comments
rossdavidh 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

So, a couple years ago Microsoft was the first large, public-facing software organization to make LLM-assisted coding a big part of their production. If LLM's really delivered 10x productivity improvements, as claimed by some, then we should by now be seeing an explosion of productivity out of Microsoft. It's been a couple years, so if it really helps then we should see it by now.

So, either LLM-assisted coding is not delivering the benefits some thought it would, or Microsoft, despite being an early investor in OpenAI, is not using it much internally on things that really matter to them (like Windows). Either way, I'm not impressed.

Someone1234 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I know blaming everything on LLMs is in vogue right now; but this is much more to do with Microsoft very publically firing the QA department[0][1] as a cost savings measure and claiming developers will do their own QA (long before LLMs were on the scene). It started in 2014 and the trickle never stopped.

Microsoft has a cultural problem; it went from an "engineers" company to an MBA directed one, trying to maximize short-term shareholder value at the cost of long-term company reputation/growth. It is very common and typical of US Corporate culture today, and catastrophic in the long-run.

[0] https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/08/how-m...

[1] https://www.reuters.com/article/business/microsoft-expected-...

mancerayder 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The arstechnica article was very good as a history of waterfall v sprint using MS as a case study. However the firing the QA department narrative is not supported:

Prior to these cuts, Testing/QA staff was in some parts of the company outnumbering developers by about two to one. Afterward, the ratio was closer to one to one. As a precursor to these layoffs and the shifting roles of development and testing, the OSG renamed its test team to “Quality.”

Two QA per dev?? That seems ginormous to me. What am I missing about the narrative about evil corp sending all of QA packing, that seems not supported here?

The second, Reuters article seems like it's saying something different than the QA firing narrative - it seems to talk about Nokia acquisition specifically and a smattering of layoffs.

Not supporting layoffs or eliminating QA, and I'm deeply annoyed at Windows 11. I just don't see these as supportive of the narrative here that QA is kaput.

ASalazarMX an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It has been an MBA company for most of its life. If I had to draw the line, IMO seems Windows 2000 was the last engineer-driven product, and by then it had already developed predatory habits.

Night_Thastus 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Microsoft fired their QA because at the end of the day, they are beholden to shareholders. And those shareholders want higher profits. And if you want higher profits, you cut costs.

It's not a culture problem. It's a 'being a business' problem, which unfortunately affects all publicly-traded companies.

rcxdude 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Shareholders are, on average, not this activist. A CEO can in fact run a public company with a long-term outlook instead of pumping the numbers for just the next quarter.

halapro 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Are businesses expected to boom and bust? Cost cutting is fine if you don't kill the company in the process.

rich_sasha 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They weren't great before LLMs either.

Also, it seems from the outside like a dysfunctional organisation, or at least with incentives heavily misaligned with their users. Replace LLMs with a bunch of 10x engineers and it will still be bad in an environment like this.

So not sure how much to blame the LLMs - or in fact how much MS is really using them. Poor souls have to use MS AI tools, I almost feel sorry for them.

BizarroLand 3 hours ago | parent [-]

They hit peak with Windows 7 and will never have an operating system that good again.

Some flavors of Linux are approaching the Windows 7 peak as well as far as ease of use for newbies, software "just working", and for familiarity for users of other OS's.

Their days as the default OS for most people are numbered unless they pull an incredible heel turn.

Octoth0rpe 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> If LLM's really delivered 10x productivity improvements, as claimed by some, then we should by now be seeing an explosion of productivity out of Microsoft. It's been a couple years, so if it really helps then we should see it by now.

That productivity may not be visible. I think MS's move-everything-to-rust initiate would be one hell of an endorsement if they manage to make visible progress on that in the next couple of years.

Someone1234 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Microsoft has no "move-everything-to-Rust initiative" and never did. That was a bunch of clickbait created based on the personal comments by a single Microsoft developer.

pawelduda 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If they used copilot and it was years ago, I'm actually impressed there are no reports of Windows PC's exploding

j1elo 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's not LLMs. It's returns-driven-development.

adamrezich 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Imagine a world where Microsoft was pushing “Copilot” integration everywhere, just as they are in this one—but the proof was, actually, in the pudding. Windows was categorically improving, without regression, with each subsequent update. Long-standing frustrations with the operating system experience were gradually being ironed out. Parts of the system that were slow, frustrating, convoluted, or all three, were being thoughtfully redesigned without breaking backwards compatibility, and we were watching this all unfold in real time, in awe of the power of “AI”, eyes wide with hope for the future of software, and computing in general.

Think of how dramatically this hypothetical alternate reality differs from the one we live in, and then consider just how galling it is that these people have the nerve to piss on our leg and then tell us it's raining. Things are not getting better. This supposedly-magical new technology isn't observably improving things where it matters most—rather, it's demonstrably hastening the decline of the baseline day-to-day software that we depend upon.

rossdavidh 12 minutes ago | parent [-]

Interesting thought experiment. In that alternate reality, their shareholders would probably be shouting "why would you give competitors access to this awesome tool?!"

CWuestefeld 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm wondering why the guy at Microsoft in charge of Windows is still employed.

Over the prior weekend my installation of Playnite (a catalog/launcher for my games) was broken by the update, until I moved its data off of OneDrive[1]. And the other day I figured out that a couple of icons on my desktop had become completely inert and unresponsive due to the same bug - again due to an interaction between the Windows Shell and OneDrive. And this one I can't fix, I can't shift my desktop out of OneDrive.

MS's strategy at this point is that Windows is a loss leader to get people onto the subscriptions for Office and OneDrive. So when the Windows team releases bugs that break usage of those services, forcing people off them onto alternative solutions, the guy in charge of those updates really needs to be answering some tough questions.

[1] I've now got SyncThing handling this.

rdiddly 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

+1 for SyncThing. No cloud, thanks. And unlike OneDrive, it actually works. OneDrive screwed me when I tried it, so I completely uninstalled it. Still on Windows 10 too. Not regretting it so far.

ferguess_k 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They don't have David Cutler to mow the lawns. I have worked in larger shops (smaller than MSFT but still large enough, almost 10K employees), and people in general are very forgiving about making mistakes. You would think it was a good thing, but what it shows was that no one cared and none took responsibility.

saghm 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

If youn put me in the starting lineup for an MLB team, I'd strike out every single at bat for the entire season, and it's wouldn't be a "mistake" on my part; I'm just fundamentally incapable of doing the job.

A mistake is something that happens when someone capable of doing the job well happens to not do it well in a specific instance (without ill intent, of course). If it happens often enough, the question should be whether it's a mistake or if they're not able (or not willing) to do the job as expected. I don't know that this is what's happening here, but the issues seem to be large and frequent enough to at least warrant a discussion.

oxygenbreather 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

There are fewer and fewer 'David Cutler' types and more and more 'Pavan Davuluri' types at Microsoft. Wonder if the blame is really down to AI or indeed a lack of attention to detail from a new kind of workforce.

stevetron 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

xswhiskey 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

How can a company this big fail so hard in what one would consider their main* product still baffles me.

*Yes, they probably make more revenue in Azure or Office365 licenses but at least when I think “Microsoft” I immediately think Windows.

Akronymus 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Because they no longer see windows as anything more than a delivery platform for their subscription services, IMO

mossTechnician 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

You're entirely right, but they need to maintain Windows in order to promote those services. The OS and their various applications have a symbiotic relationship where they prioritize each other.

If Microsoft discontinued Windows and switched to just providing web apps, the competition would be a lot stiffer.

Akronymus 6 hours ago | parent [-]

"maintain" meaning keeping it somewhat workable or actually improving it?

ATM windows still has enough of a moat that they can comfortably do the former.

mossTechnician 5 hours ago | parent [-]

I believe Microsoft can skate for a long time with just bug fixes and security updates. It makes the drop in Windows' quality all the more baffling.

wolvoleo 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

True but it is still their moat. Without windows they will lose a lot of appeal to their cloud products like Intune, Azure AD, M365 etc

pjc50 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There's no realistic competition because the amount of work to switch your OS ecosystem, especially for businesses, is huge. So the product doesn't have to be good, you can just slam ads in the Start menu or whatever.

yuters 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

At one point the product is getting so bad that the cost of switching becomes a real consideration. It seems that every other year I hear about businesses and governments making the move.

spogbiper 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The business version of Windows doesn't have ads in the start menu. That's the consumer/home version. The "Pro" flavors of Windows are quite a bit more pleasant and I don't think there is any downside even on a home computer.

eviks 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Why does it matter (from the company's ability to fail perspective) what you immediately think of? (yeah, Windows isn't their main product, quick search says it's 10% revenue vs 40% for servers, 22% office, and 9% gaming, so wouldn't that decline be relevant in explaining why it's neglected and fail?)

OkayPhysicist 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Windows for personal computers and Office are the only products that make Microsoft relevant. No one on god's green earth is choosing Windows Server on its own merits: They're picking it for software compatibility reasons stemming from software being written on, and exclusively targeting, Windows Desktop. Hell, most of the office suite is chosen because it's easier to buy more stuff from somebody you're already buying stuff from than to find someone new. No one has ever chosen Teams as the best product in its space.

Very few products Microsoft sells would be worth buying by themselves. They exclusively make mediocre products that are merely the default choice once you've been hoodwinked into buying into Windows or XBOX. If the break Windows, all the money disappears.

BizarroLand 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Windows server compared to any linux server os is extraordinarily inferior in every regard except for the AD Domain services interface, which is a leftover from probably Windows NT that they haven't screwed with in the interim so it still functions.

ThunderSizzle 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

If you aren't running Windows, you probably aren't using Office. Half the reason for Office is Exchange, and half the reason is the integration of Exchange with Active Directory.

Without any of that, does Office make sense anymore compared to something like GSuite?

stackskipton 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Yea. Even if you are all MacOS shop, Office has Desktop Applications that run on MacOS.

I find so many companies that use GSuite still buy Office licenses for select employees. There is plenty of places that will just go all in 365 for that reason alone.

eviks 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Ok, so it's an important dependency, but the fact that it's a small product line can still explain the neglect. For example, is it baffling that companies don't invest time/money in open source libraries they use even though those might be important for their main products?

jimnotgym 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Correct. IT departments want Active Directory.

Create a user, apportion a 365 licence and boom, they have email, Teams, OneDrive etc. Add them to some groups and they have all the files they need.

Excel is better than Sheets in ways which are important for 0.01% of users, but that is all.

NetMageSCW 5 hours ago | parent [-]

I think Excel is better in Sheets in ways that are important for a lot more users, but it isn’t the same ways for each user.

jimnotgym 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Also, which I should have said, is for that small group, the missing Sheets features are a show-stopper, not just an annoyance

direwolf20 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Because they know everyone who's still using Windows has no choices to switch to. They won't use Linux or Mac.

BizarroLand 2 hours ago | parent [-]

No, they have choices, but many people just want to turn on their computer, watch a few videos, read some emails, pay some bills and then go do something else.

Those people won't fuss with installing linux and getting rid of Microsoft even though Windows is doing nothing for them that Linux cannot do just as easily.

If there are people in your life that do not use computers to make money or play video games or edit photos and videos but they do use computers, swap them to linux and let them get on with their lives.

direwolf20 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Those people don't even have Windows–compatible computers. They have phones and tablets.

Rohansi 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I always see articles like this and have never had it happen to me. It's definitely something that affects specific hardware and/or software combinations instead of just poor QA.

bell-cot 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Ask anyone who was a power user of dBase or Lotus 1-2-3 back in the '80's.

gonzo41 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I was thinking about this very thing today. Personally, I see the Windows OS as a core competency of Microsoft. If the OS is bad, then the company is being run badly. In the same as when you go to a fine restaurant and the kitchen have the polished pots and pans you can see, generally things are going to be great. Its the attention to detail, If those small details are right, then the whole meal will be good. And currently the whole meal is crap with windows.

lloydatkinson 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Realistically it's because a good chunk of their work is outsourced abroad who then in turn outsource their thinking to ChatGPT.

blibble 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I see Microslop's "AI" coding mandate is continuing to go well

5 hours ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
WhyNotHugo 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> "Microsoft has received a limited number of reports […]

Interesting working: one night interpret this as “a few reports”, but they’re technically saying “a finite amount of reports”, without really implying if there were a few or many cases.

6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
r721 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Previous discussion:

>Microsoft suspects some PCs might not boot after Windows 11 January 2026 Update

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46761061

rkagerer 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Modern Windows... It's like having your own DoS adversary baked into your PC.

timpera 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

W11 is the best OS I've ever used, but everyone seems to hate it because Microsoft is so adamant in destroying its reputation by pushing Copilot and bugs instead of focusing on reliability. It's a shame.

bayesnet 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Genuinely curious—what parts of Windows 11 do you like? I can’t find a single redeeming quality compared to W10, but admittedly I daily drive arch + macOS and only occasionally use my windows machine.

timpera 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The multitasking is awesome (especially window and monitor management, it's a huge improvement over W10), everything is snappy, the ARM64 battery life (especially in standby) is Macbook-like, I never have issues with USB-C docks and monitors (unlike Fedora where I always have to tinker with the terminal at some point), and the Windows version of Microsoft Excel is still unmatched.

There have also been great updates to PowerToys recently that I wish were easily available on other systems, but that's not a W11 specific thing.

Finally, I really like the UI (but that's obviously subjective! and if you really care about customization, Linux clearly is the best pick for you).

Den_VR 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If not for being forced off, most people would never have left windows xp… many medical practices and industrial facilities still are in it.

ronnier 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Windows Key + P to change monitor configuration quickly.

spikej 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I hope there's more to it than something solvable with AutoHotkey... So far I just experience a buggier version of Windows 10 with features I don't want.

Genbox 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That is also a Windows 10 feature

timemct 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm pretty sure that's been a shortcut well before W11, W7 iirc.

DrammBA 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Wasn't that introduced in Windows 7?

baal80spam 3 hours ago | parent [-]

It certainly exists in my Windows 10.

nmeofthestate 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Interesting - my annoyance with W11 is nothing to do with AI or CoPilot (or "Privacy", "Phoning home", the usual crap MS haters talk about), it's due to stuff like Windows Explorer getting seriously worse.

zipy124 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

But it's reliability is bad? It doesn't crash as often as previous versions of windows sure, but instead ends up in various inoperable states that aren't fixed without restarting, which isn't really any better.

friendzis 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Forkbombing into resource exhaustion aside, W11 is the only system that left me unable to as much as log in

stronglikedan an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If it were the best, I'd be able to drag a file onto a taskbar icon to do something with it, like I could with every other version of Windows ever (and Mac, and Linux).

pharrington 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

What other operating systems have you used?

timpera 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Dual boot with Fedora on my laptop, and my desktop at home is a Mac mini M4. I really like Fedora, it's my Linux distro of choice, but the experience is not as nice as on W11 in my opinion.

fuzzfactor 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>nightmare gets worse

Gets?

It was actually just as bad when first deployed as it is now, but none of the key humans who were supposed to know about things like this in advance, knew about any of it in advance.

That's the approach that makes it the gift that keeps on giving.

Or the embarrassment that keeps on embarrassing.

Is there a person or team having high standards that is able to accurately say when the changes introduced by this particular download alone have been thoroughly reviewed to their satisfaction?

Or will there ever be anybody like that ever again?

notjustanymike 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> It's unclear why January's security update for Windows 11 has been so disastrous. Whatever the reason, Microsoft needs to step back and reevaluate how it developers Windows, as the current quality bar might be at the lowest it's ever been.

I think I might know...

findthewords 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Cutting QA on your core product is a very Boeing choice.

game_the0ry 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I think I might know...

I will say it for you -- they're moving too fast with AI.

Topfi 6 hours ago | parent [-]

I wish this were a recent development, connected to major improperly reviewed code changes provided by LLMs, but let us be honest, MSFT has had an appalling, frankly embarrassing track record in this regard dating back literally a decade plus now.

I've experienced it more than once on my Surface back in the day [0], the entire globe was affected by Crowdstrike which also was caused by a lack of testing on MSFTs part and there are numerous other examples of crashes, boot loops and BSODs caused by changes they made throughout the years [1].

Frankly, simply, no matter whether the code changes are provided by the worst LLM or the most skilled human experts, it appears their review process has been faulty for a long time. Bad code making it into updates is not the fault of any new tools, nor (in the past) of unqualified developers since, frankly and simply, the review process should have caught all of these.

Mac OS can be buggy and occasionally is a bit annoying in my case (Tahoe though is actually rather stable besides a few visual glitches for me, surprising considering a lot of my peers are having more issues with it over 25) but I have yet to see it fail to boot solely due to an update.

Linux distros like Silverblue have never been broken due to an update in my experience (though there are famous examples like what happened a while back with PopOS). With immutable distros like Silverblue, even if you intentionally brick the install (or an update does break it), you just select the OSTree prior to the change and resolve any issue instantly.

For an OS one is supposed to pay for both with money and by looking at ads, Windows has been in an inexcusable state long before LLMs were a thing. Considering such major, obvious issues as "system doesn't start anymore" have been falling through code review for over a decade now, imagine what else has fallen through the cracks...

[0] https://www.computerworld.com/article/1649940/microsoft-reca...

[1] https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/you-receive-an-eve... and https://www.eweek.com/security/microsoft-yanks-windows-updat... and https://www.404techsupport.com/2015/03/12/kb3033929-may-caus... and https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/troubleshoot/windows-clien...

scrlk 6 hours ago | parent [-]

> MSFT has had an appalling, frankly embarrassing track record in this regard dating back literally a decade plus now.

IMO, it's all traceable to their decision to lay off their dedicated QA teams in 2014

coldpie 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Having done contract development work for a number of different-sized software companies, a common rule I've noticed is the quality of the product is directly proportional to how many QA staff are employed. Clients that had me in direct contact with their QA teams provided high-quality bug reports, consistent reproduction steps, and verification of fixes that I could trust. Clients that did not have a QA team, where I was working directly with developers, usually had extremely fraught bug/fix/test cycles, low quality reproduction steps, fix validation that turned out to be not actually validated.

It's difficult for companies, especially big ones, because QA seems like purely a cost. The benefits are not obvious, so they're easy to cut when lean times come. But having people dedicated to the role of Assuring Quality actually really does accomplish that. If you are not delivering quality software, you are going to destroy user trust and lose to competitors. If the company is cutting QA staff disproportionately, that's a sign the leaders don't know what they're doing, and you should be looking for the exit (both as an employee & as a user).

I don't know what the right number of QA staff is, but it's probably higher than you think. At a small company I worked at previously, it was about 1 QA staff per 4 developers. That felt all right, but I certainly would have been happy to have more QA staff available to validate my work more quickly.

rootnod3 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Vibe coding to the max. Forcing employees to use it and that’s the large scale result. Cause it’s garbage. Hands down on large scale it just doesn’t work. Especially on something the scale of an operating system.

There will be the usual downvotes and I’ll take em. If the pro-AI folks can’t convince me that LLMs are able to write and maintain systems at that scale, that will be par for the course.

Wait, “you just didn’t write enough spec and unit tests for the LLM to do it correctly and you are promoting it wrong”.

AlexandrB 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

There's a reason many call them Microslop.

tjpnz 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Not slop but sophistication.

zxcvasd 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[dead]

ta9000 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Only 12 year old boys 25 years ago. Use Linux or MacOS, just move on.

steve1977 5 hours ago | parent [-]

I don't think Microslop was a common term 25 years ago.

9rx 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Okay, Micro$lop.

ChrisArchitect 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dupe] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46761061