| ▲ | Test your square brackets(fluca1978.github.io) |
| 64 points by speckx 6 days ago | 55 comments |
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| ▲ | jcims 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Reminds me of my rather memorable introduction to special characters invoking functions, seeing this dastardly little quip in the email signature of someone in a mailing list (circa '95 or so). :(){:|:&};:
My curiosity piqued, I pasted it into the shell on my terminal in a pure example of FAFO. The poor little Sparc 5 I was using ground to a halt over the course of about ten seconds. The reboot was as hard as the lesson. xD |
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| ▲ | jez 11 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Something I never understood about this: is the pipe necessary, or just to have another symbol contributing to the mayhem? :(){:&;:};:
This is the same number of characters but doesn’t use a pipe, and I was never able to figure out why it seems so universally to use a pipe. | |
| ▲ | meindnoch 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Context: https://www.cyberciti.biz/faq/understanding-bash-fork-bomb/ | | |
| ▲ | jcynix an hour ago | parent [-] | | And especially the ulimit command mentioned, which is mostly unknown to folks nowadays, it seems. |
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| ▲ | dcminter 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I have this printed on a sweatshirt - it saddens me a little that people who get it are so few and far between these days :'( | | |
| ▲ | jcims an hour ago | parent [-] | | I have it on a tshirt. Pretty sure most people think it's just an emotional rant in emoji form. |
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| ▲ | Normal_gaussian 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I prefer u(){u|u&};u
AKA, fork u. | |
| ▲ | mitchell_h 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | such nostalgia. There was a time when you could tell a fair bit about someone if that was in their email signature. | |
| ▲ | ogogmad 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > The reboot was as hard as the lesson. I'm confused. What happened on reboot? | | |
| ▲ | Normal_gaussian 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | A hard reboot is where the power goes all the way off, a soft reboot is where it doesn't. A fork bomb makes it very hard / impossible to trigger a soft reboot, forcing you to do a hard reboot. As an extra sting, a hard reboot can be damaging if the software and hardware is not correctly handling power interruption, which was much more likely in the 90's. | | |
| ▲ | jcims an hour ago | parent [-] | | Yeah the days before journaling filesystems, a moment to consider your actions as fsck did its best to clean up the mess you made. |
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| ▲ | joshstrange 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| In college I took a database class, it was pretty basic overall as I had been playing with MySQL for a few years at that point. On the final exam I got a 90/100. The test was 10 questions that just had you write SQL to answer the question. I got all the queries 100% correct... except... I didn't put a ";" after each query. On a written test. I'm still a little bitter about that. |
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| ▲ | reactordev 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The ultimately sad part was the professor in a Sun OS machine. In a corner with no where to go, giving demerits because his bash was older than he realized. Reminds me of my college professor that claimed you don’t have to close HTML tags (some you absolutely do) and I proved that you do. Not all of them, but most of them. (Netscape Navigator Days) |
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| ▲ | Sharlin 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Why do you think the prof even used bash? I highly doubt his ancient SunOS machine had a GNU toolchain. `test` and `[` are both POSIX, but if there was no `/bin/[` I doubt the shell in question (original Bourne? Some proprietary Sun shell? Who knows) had it built in either. | | |
| ▲ | reactordev 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Bourne /bin/sh I’m certain of it. If it was Sun OS, it was sh. Was just stating that he was sitting on old while trying to teach new and handing out -1’s for leveraging the new. Terrible… |
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| ▲ | jonhohle 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It doesn’t have anything to do with bash (though modern bash may use a built in for `[`). He don’t have the `[` program (usually linked to `test`). | | |
| ▲ | reactordev 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Which is why later versions of bash have a builtin… Precisely because those older systems didn’t link to it! So my comment still stands. | | |
| ▲ | Someone 25 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > Precisely because those older systems didn’t link to it! Not to speed up bash scripts? Launching a process for simple if statements such as those checking whether a file exists is fairly expensive. |
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| ▲ | Normal_gaussian an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I knew that `[` was notionally the same as `test`, but had never 'checked'. I just assumed `[` was a built-in that conformed rather than them actually being the same. So I very much enjoyed following along with the article, first seeing that `ls -il /bin/test` and `ls -il /bin/[` are at different inodes, then md5summing and seeing they are different, getting concerned, then the article revealing that is the case now (I'm trusting rather than verifying about the separate builds). I was then very satisfied to recall that `[[` is a built-in (as `[[` isn't portable between all shells). |
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| ▲ | HarHarVeryFunny 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Whoa! /bin/[ as a binary looking for it's own "]" closing bracket! What a nasty syntax hack! I wonder what the motivation was for doing this rather than just implementing test expression support directly in the shell? I just tried and bash also accepts some other odd filenames in place of "[", so you can do: ln -s /bin/test "-" ln -s /bin/test "$" And use either of these in place of "[" (assuming they are on your path). Of course they still expect the closing "]" since that requirement comes from /bin/test. It's an interesting way to extend bash in a confusing way! You could write a "$" utility that did something else entirely, perhaps looking for a "closing $" too, then write something like: if $ args $; then fi |
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| ▲ | 1f60c 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I also love argv[--argc]. Evil genius. And it's fully legit (from the draft C standard, 5.1.2.2.1, § 2 "Program startup"): > The parameters argc and argv and the strings pointed to by the argv array shall be modifiable by the program, and retain their last-stored values between program startup and program termination. https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/WG14/www/docs/n1256.pdf [pdf] |
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| ▲ | projektfu 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Here is the part of the test.c source from V7 Unix: main(argc, argv)
char *argv[];
{
ac = argc; av = argv; ap = 1;
if(EQ(argv[0],"[")) {
if(!EQ(argv[--ac],"]"))
synbad("] missing","");
}
argv[ac] = 0;
if (ac<=1) exit(1);
exit(exp()?0:1);
}
So, if the professor was missing the "[" command, they were missing a link. More likely, they had a weird orthodoxy about using "test" instead of "[" because reasons. One good reason to use "test" instead of "[" in a Bourne shell control statement is if you are running a list of commands between "if" and "then", and the test is the last part of the list.Another good place to use "test" is if you are not in a control statement and you are just setting $?. Edit: EQ() is defined as: #define EQ(a,b) ((tmp=a)==0?0:(strcmp(tmp,b)==0))
char *tmp;
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| ▲ | jcynix 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The [[…]] built-in test version was introduced in Peter Korn's korn shell, ksh88 IIRC. As where various other modernized notations like array variables, process substitution or $(command)
as a much more readable version of the backquotes version.https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E36784_01/html/E36870/ksh88-1.htm... While learning the Bourne shell as acstudent, I was rapidly lured by csh and then tcsh, but Tom Christiansen's pamphlet
https://everything2.com/title/csh+programming+considered+har... and (or?) the appearance of Paul Falstad's Z-Shell saved me ;-0 |
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| ▲ | xg15 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| So if you really want to troll someone, you can put them in quotes. if "[" "$foo" "==" "bar" "]"; then ...
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| ▲ | mcc1ane 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| https://github.com/anordal/shellharden/blob/master/how_to_do... |
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| ▲ | Wowfunhappy 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > When I was a young, green, university student, I was forced to use test(1) as the only true way to do testing in shell scripting. […] Yeah, I was also forced to not use semicolons as they were evil (according to my professor, any comment unneeded!). The author’s professor clearly went overboard, but doesn’t this entire anecdote demonstrate the value of teaching it this way? Having green students call the `test` binary provides more insight into how UNIX operates, and gets them using a UNIX mindset. They can discover the syntactic shortcuts later. |
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| ▲ | ogogmad 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Hmm. What if we replaced the whole of bash with the contents of /bin? | | |
| ▲ | Wowfunhappy 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | …you always need some sort of shell to call the binaries, don’t you? I do think it makes sense to have beginners use `sh` instead of `bash`. | | |
| ▲ | jcynix an hour ago | parent [-] | | Oh, "once upon a time" I did set emacs to be my login "shell" and emacs can call other binaries via execve, handle sub processes, etc. Worked as expected. Getting a Linux or Unix system to boot without a proper shell would be another complication, so a system completely without a she'll? I expect that to either be easy nor useful. |
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| ▲ | CGMthrowaway 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I've been spending too much time researching home improvement and thought this was going to be about deck-building. |
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| ▲ | meisel 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The real solution is that as soon as you need square brackets, switch to a better language than bash |
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| ▲ | stabbles 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Nowadays [ is a builtin. The subprocess for a simple branch would be excessive overhead. |
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| ▲ | MontyCarloHall 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | It is indeed a builtin, but `/bin/[` still exists for compatibility reasons! $ which [
/bin/[
$ type [
[ is a shell builtin
The same is true for the `test` command: $ which test
/bin/test
$ type test
test is a shell builtin
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| ▲ | stabbles 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Right, that's also a good reminder that the builtin `command -V` is typically what you want whenever you use not-always-builtin `which` ;) |
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| ▲ | andrewcl 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The Objective-C folks probably are chuckling their square brackets send messages. |
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| ▲ | esafak 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| To me the salient part is that he had an exam on shell scripts?! |
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| ▲ | Normal_gaussian 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I did my degree in 2012-2015; and we had a mandatory first year course on *nix, which IIRC included a test on shell scripting. Its not really theoretical or applied CS, but it is a core skill for meaningfully doing applied CS. |
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| ▲ | theandrewbailey 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Now do [ ... ] and [[ ... ]] I'm still not sure when to use one or the other. I use double brackets by default until something doesn't work. |
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| ▲ | PhilipRoman 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | [[...]] is non-portable and has an extremely quirky corner case with variable expansion in arithmetic contexts, what's not to love? | | |
| ▲ | account42 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It also does wildcards though, with POSIX you'll need a case statement for that. | |
| ▲ | ndsipa_pomu 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I'm intrigued - any info on that? I personally use ((...)) for arithmetic tests and [[...]] for all other tests as I just target new versions of BASH and don't care much about POSIX compatibility. |
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| ▲ | xp84 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | If shipping something that must run on sh, check your life choices and use [ - otherwise [[ is better. Honestly though I’ve been much happier since I stopped writing anything complex enough to have conditionals in Shell. Using a real scripting language like Ruby, Python, even PHP or Perl if you know them, is better. In the Ruby case I just use `%x( … )` when I need to run shell commands (there are some things shell does great like passing pipelines of text through 5 programs) and let the logic part be in Ruby. | |
| ▲ | nickjj 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [[ ... ]] supports regex comparisons and lets you combine multiple conditions in a single bracket group using && and || instead of remembering to use -a / -o. I usually default to [ ... ] unless I need features that double brackets provide. | |
| ▲ | stabbles 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Double brackets are less portable. For example musl linux does not come with bash by default, and your script fails. When unsure, use shellcheck. | | |
| ▲ | duskdozer 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | You mean shellcheck will detect when single brackets won't be enough? I've also just defaulted to double because I never really looked into it | | |
| ▲ | stabbles 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yeah, if you set the shebang `#!/bin/sh` (which is portable), shellcheck will complain about double brackets. It also helps you do quoting correctly when using single brackets. |
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| ▲ | a3w 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [[ is built in, so "test[" as an /usr/bin artifact never exists? (What to call that proposed program, test2, or test[ ?) |
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| ▲ | ndsipa_pomu 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Use ((...)) for arithmetic tests and [[...]] for other tests. [...] is for POSIX compatibility and not as useful as [[...]] though I don't remember the specifics. | | |
| ▲ | jonhohle 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | [[…]] is a bash (probably other shells, too) built in. […] could be a built in, or could be a symlink to /bin/test. | | |
| ▲ | jcynix 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | The [[…]] version was introduced in Peter Korn's korn shell, ksh88 IIRC. |
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| ▲ | zzzeek 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | yeah, if [ is a command in /bin/ what is [[ ? | | |
| ▲ | SAI_Peregrinus 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | A builtin part of the shell, just like `if` and `then` and `fi`. Not all shells have `[[`, the one that doesn't which people unknowingly run into most is probably `dash` as used by Alpine Linux. POSIX doesn't require `[[` in a shell, BASH & Zsh support it but others often don't. | | |
| ▲ | zzzeek 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | right so "[" is a file in /bin, "[[" is implicitly part of the shell, so that's as bad as I thought |
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| ▲ | ndsipa_pomu 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Here's Greg's Wiki about the difference between [, [[ and test https://mywiki.wooledge.org/BashFAQ/031 |