| ▲ | Indie game developers have a new sales pitch: being 'AI free'(theverge.com) |
| 48 points by 01-_- 2 hours ago | 34 comments |
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| ▲ | dejobaan 32 minutes ago | parent | next [-] |
| I've been keeping an eye out on AI disclosures on Steam (https://www.totallyhuman.io/blog/the-surprising-new-number-o...). While it's unsurprising that devs are using it, what was surprising was the number of games that disclose it. I believe, as of November, it's up to 8% of the while library. The biggest game to disclose AI use right now is Stellaris (with many many millions in sales), though having initially launched many years ago, their GenAI usage is in product updates. |
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| ▲ | 1gn15 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I literally do not care what tools you use to write your code. |
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| ▲ | debo_ an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Most of the focus on this isn't the code. It's the art and music that make up the experience. This is discussed right in the article. > For Kanaris-Sotiriou, the question of adopting the use of gen AI to make games was an easy one to answer. “The foundations that it’s built upon, the idea of using other people’s work without permission to generate artwork [...] are unfair,” he says. I personally think using AI assistance for the code is much less intrusive than using AI for the art and music -- the code isn't as directly experienced by the player as the art. | | |
| ▲ | mikkupikku 38 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Much of it comes from people feeling challenged and threatened by the new tech so they construct elaborate philosophies to justify how they feel, but this rapidly crumbles when you look closer. For instance, artists felt threatened by generative AI and came up with a narrative about copyright stuff. But then Adobe comes along with generative AI which doesn't have the copyright issue and how do those same artists respond? With a loud "fuck you" to Adobe, because the root of their objection was never copyright but rather what the new technology would do to their established careers. In this atmosphere, I think it's easy to perceive an implied rejection of and threat to AI generated code, even if the focus is on art assets, because people aren't being entirely direct and forthright about exactly what it is they're upset about, and that makes for a landmine field. | | |
| ▲ | DoctorOW 14 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Thank God the benevolent Adobe shareholders have swooped in to protect us from people who have learned a skill. | |
| ▲ | stego-tech 29 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yeah nah. The core reason they’re pissed is the blatant theft of their work to train these models without compensation or permission (the age old “if it’s on the web it’s free to use” bullshit argument), with “artistic merit” being a distant, but still critical, second. If you can actually write stories or create art, you can see the “seams” in generative content and it gets to be quite nauseating. The fact it was trained on your own output by a trillion-dollar megacorp via theft while you scrape money for rent is the injury to the former’s insult. | | |
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| ▲ | tapoxi 35 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Arc Raiders and The Finals got some controversy lately for using AI voice acting. Those games don't have any "normal" vocal performances. | | |
| ▲ | diath 24 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Arc Raiders has 160k Steam reviews (which is a lot) and 90% of them are positive. It also has an estimated >4M owners despite a high price tag and is currently the #4 most played game on Steam globally. The AI nay-sayers are a vocal minority - and likely just terminally online Twitter people that do not even play the game, the rest of the players are too busy enjoying the game regardless of whether it's made with AI or not. | | |
| ▲ | meheleventyone 18 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I think it's more that the use of AI is in an unimportant part of the game. They could have zero AI voice overs without impacting the game in a meaningful manner. They're pretty bad though and I've definitely seen them getting mocked. |
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| ▲ | antisthenes 32 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Those games are shooter-slop anyway. I can't remember the last time I cared about voice lines in Quake or Unreal Tournament or any other multiplayer shooter. It's not an RPG or a rich-story genre game, so who cares. | | |
| ▲ | ryukoposting 20 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | I kinda see your point. The warm feeling of knowing a real human told me "die, bitch!" isn't a feeling I've ever taken away from playing UT. On the other hand, lots of AI-generated VO is very easy to spot, and sounds awful. It stands to reason it could meaningfully take away from even a completely plot-free game. If I were a voice actor, I'd feel insulted that anyone would find it comparable to my work. | |
| ▲ | tapoxi 29 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Arc Raiders has NPCs in the game hub which deliver quests and exposition, its not entirely within the context of a raid. |
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| ▲ | Johanx64 14 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It's the sales pitch that doesn't work for "normal" people, but only artsy-fartsy people and "games journalists". Ie. a vocal and mostly irrelevant small minority. Never forget who your main audience is. |
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| ▲ | bodge5000 11 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | But normal people also arent pro AI. Thats again a very small, vocal and irrelevant minority. The main audience isn't going to not buy a game because it doesn't use AI | |
| ▲ | nemomarx 10 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Only a small number of indie games will go mainstream enough for that to matter, I think. If your likely outcome is selling 10,000 copies getting in with the reviewer and blogger crowd is probably helpful. |
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| ▲ | stego-tech 20 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The “they’re just jelly that we can do better than they with AI” camp really needs to spend more time hanging around artisans in general, instead of flouncing into comment sections and evangelizing the AI-booster groupthink. Artists and creators are, broadly, incredibly pissed that their output was used to train these models without compensation or consent by trillion-dollar megacorps and VC-funded startups. That is, and remains, the core grievance. People who already make a pittance by devoting themselves to the creation of art are now forced out of art entirely because programmers just couldn’t be bothered to - GASP - have an original thought and commission someone else to execute it for them. A distant, but still important, secondary concern is the quality of the slop itself (or lack thereof). Anyone who engages with art sufficiently can see the “seams” in generative content, even in state of the art models: perspectives lack consistency across key frames, anatomy isn’t grounded in reality or bends in ways befitting of a horror movie, geometry and materials that do not “graft” together due to a lack of negative space. These models are garbage because they don’t recognize core artistic concepts, only haphazardly reassemble pieces by prompt. I challenge the AI crowd to actually go to an art faire, or commission a custom piece of your idea. Have something you had to contribute more than a simple prompt, to. Identify styles you like and artists that work within them. Take the chance to make more human connections and bond over shared creativity. The artists will thank you, and you’re likely to enjoy the resultant output far more. |
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| ▲ | catapart 8 minutes ago | parent [-] | | At this point, I just assume anyone who advocates for the use of AI is actually just an output from some AI. Given that "human-sounding speech" is the thing that AI is most easily able to produce, and how many different AIs are out there, and how beneficial an army of never-softening commenters can be for any specific pet cause you like, I can't think of why it wouldn't be statistically irresponsible to not assume that. I've met enough real humans with completely self-important defenses of it that I know that they exist, so I'm willing to at least give them doubt. But the assumption is that they are AI and they need to prove being human. To assume otherwise is unreasonable. |
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| ▲ | khoury an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The "hand made" era of software |
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| ▲ | kleiba 33 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | And this when "Handmade Hero" was abandoned over two years ago, after not really getting anywhere over the course of 9 years. | | |
| ▲ | Johanx64 17 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | For what it's worth it spawned a lot of quality software as a side effect. And served as an educational platform for a lot of programmers that felt that there's something wrong with modern day software and python/javascript low quality garbage they did at their day-to-day job, but couldn't quite put their finger on it. Turns out you can both fail, and yet succeed in 10 different ways at the same time. | |
| ▲ | pjmlp 30 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Haven't you kept up with the social media status, and the conferences that came out of it? |
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| ▲ | ceejayoz 38 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Artisanal! I remember when artisanal Doritos came out. That felt like the end of that. | |
| ▲ | b3lvedere 42 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | We of the hand crafted software guild (HCSG) vow to not use too much tools and automation. Sure, you may use a compiler to magically transform your source code into real executable software or use some Adobe product to transform your ugly concept drawing into something amazing, but we draw the vague limit at outsourcing too much to automation at AI generated or curated content. One can only respect the trade if one works extremely hard, drew blood and shedded tears and sweat from one's very overworked body. AI is just creepy and has no soul. Did the great artists, developers and programmers copy paste a lot of each others work and call it a day? We think not! Here we do not re-invent the wheel or copy someone else's wheel. You will be obligated to design, develop, program and come up with your own wheel, even if you have a copy of the best wheel possible for your program. We make hand-crafted traditional software in small batches so the high quality of software is always preserved. Your parents and great-parents will be proud and shed nostalgic tears when using your software. Everything should be as it was and everything should be traditionally awesome. /s | | |
| ▲ | walt_grata 31 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | I'll be more inclined to believe the hype when we start measuring accuracy and predictability like SLOs and holding the companies accountable for bad results. | |
| ▲ | beepbooptheory 41 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | > We make hand-crafted traditional software in small batches so the high quality of software is always preserved I see the `\s` but this part at least is literally what we need to do! | | |
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| ▲ | thedangler 36 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I like AI to figure out complex issue or something I would just find on stackoverflow. It's great for doing boiler plate crap that I don't want to do anyways. But when you need it to do something that it hasn't found in a git repo, it struggles. |
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| ▲ | the_real_cher 10 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It just seems weird to me. It's like a carpenter saying they're power tool free. You have an amazing tool to speed up your work why wouldn't you use it? |
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| ▲ | HugoTea a few seconds ago | parent [-] | | I think of it more like Ikea furniture produced in a factory vs an artisans hand-crafted chair.
One of them is made with love and care, the other is an industrial product, one of millions.
The difference with video games is the artisan's chair is cheaper than the Ikea product. |
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| ▲ | mjr00 19 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Seems like a misguided fight. Slop is slop because it's slop. Sounds tautological, but AI is orthogonal to the problem. Before AI, there were and are Unity/Unreal "asset store piles" which grab a bunch of (mostly free) assets from the engine's store and slap them into a game. Nothing looks coherent or cohesive. AI has made that a lot more easy and customizable, of course, but the end result is the same: a bunch of disparate elements coming together incohesively, making for a poor player experience. In the end it's about taste. People with poor taste will make bad games, whether they use AI or not. AI has certainly accelerated the rate at which bad games can be made, however. Personally I'd rather play an indie game made by one person who uses GenAI to help build out their coherent, unique, and personal vision, rather than an entirely handmade yet another soulless Roguelite Deckbuilder, 2d pixel art platformer, or extraction shooter. |
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| ▲ | Mistletoe 19 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I think the next decade will be one that values anything provably authentic and it will keep becoming more and more rare. |
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| ▲ | sweetheart an hour ago | parent | prev [-] |
| https://archive.ph/20251125055632/https://www.theverge.com/e... I'm actually currently in the process of trying to career shift from a "normal" SWE career into indie game development, and starting to navigate this a bit myself. As I become more invested in the indie game space, both as someone who wants to make a living within it, but also as someone who wants to support other indie devs more and more, I feel like what I care about most is when a game has a clear sense of the individual(s) behind the project. I dont think that this strong sense of identity is antithetical to generative AI use, but I definitely think it can become a crutch that hurts rather than helps. I say all this, but at the same time can't imagine feeling compelled to do without Cursor for development. To me, there is a remarkable difference between AI being used for the software engineering vs. the art direction. But this is just personal preference, I think. Still, it's hard to know if that will mean I can't also use something like a "Gen-AI Free" product label, or where that line will fall. Does the smart fill tool in Photoshop count as Gen AI? How could it not? In the end, I think there is (or there _can_ be) real value to knowing that the product you purchased was the result of a somewhat painstaking creative process. |