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Animats 18 hours ago

Some animals are ready to go as soon as they are born. These are called precocial animals. They are born knowing how to walk.

It's interesting seeing what comes built-in. You can see this if you watch a horse being born. Within the first hour, the foal will stand, and despite long legs, this usually works the first time. Lying down, however, is not preprogrammed. I've watched a foal circle trying to figure out how to get down from standing, and finally collapsing to the ground in a heap. Standing up quickly is essential to survival, but smoothly lying down is not. Within a day, a newborn foal can run with the herd.

Of the mammals, most of the equines and some of the rodents (beavers) are precocial. Pigs are, monkeys are not. It's not closely tied to evolutionary ancestry.

ekidd 14 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> It's interesting seeing what comes built-in. You can see this if you watch a horse being born.

A fascinating example of this are some Labrador retrievers. Labs are descended from a Newfoundland "landrace" of dogs known as St Johns Water Dogs. They have multiple aquatic adaptations: the "otter tail", oily fur, and webbed feet. (Some of these are shared with other water-oriented breeds.) Some lines of Labradors, especially the "bench" or English dogs, normally retain this full suite of water adaptations.

But the wild thing about these particular Labradors is that they love to swim, and that most of them are born knowing how to swim very well. But they don't know that they know how to swim. So many a young Lab will spend a while standing on the shore, watching humans or other dogs in the water, and fussing because they don't dare to join the fun. Then they may (for example) eventually lean too far and fall into shallow water. Within moments, they'll typically be swimming around and having the time of their lives.

The near-instant transformation from "fascinated by water and fearing it" to "hey I can swim and this is the absolute best thing ever" is remarkable to watch, though not recommended.

I remember another Lab, who'd been afraid to go swimming, who one day impulsively bolted for the water, took an impressive leap off a rock, and (from his reaction) apparently realized in mid-air that he had no idea what he was going to do next. Once he hit the water, he was fortunately fine, to the great relief of his owner.

CAUTION: This behavior pattern is apparently NOT universal in Labs. Owners of "field" or American Labs seem to have much better thought-out protocols for introducing hunting dogs to water, and failure to follow these protocols may result in bad experiences, dogs that fear water, and actual danger to dogs. So please consult an expert.

xyzzy_plugh 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This behavior has practically nothing to do with Labradors. Many, many dogs regardless of breed can do this. Cats too. And foxes and wolves and rats and... well pretty much all quadrupeds with reasonable sizes limbs relative to their body. You might notice it's more or less the same motion as walking. Animals that drown usually do so from exhaustion, not because they can't keep their head above water.

Primates are relatively unique in their complete lack of innate swimming abilities.

altgeek 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Yes, while these motor reflexes are not innate, autonomic responses remain. Search for the "mammalian diving reflex".

cma 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Primates are relatively unique in their complete lack of innate swimming abilities.

Human babies can swim, so it's maybe more initially an innate one that gets lost. Though they won't be able to keep their head over water by default if that's what you meant (can be trained to as a toddler). But I'm talking about swimming on the umbilical in water births, etc., showing that there isn't a complete lack of innate swimming abilities.

lupire 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Is it "primates" or is it the strange semi/erect limb attachment that primates have?

9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
threethirtytwo 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You may not have noticed but you are also describing an inborn fear of deep water.

Does the dog fear drinking water? No. So the dog specifically fears deep water. What taught him to specifically fear deep water over a bowl of water? Most likely he was also born with the fear.

This also tells us that evolution often results in conflicting instincts… a fear of water and an instinct to swim. Most likely what occurred here is an early ancestor of the lab originally feared water and was not adapted to swim well. The feature that allowed it to swim well came later and is sort of like retrofitting a car to swim. You need to wait a really long time for the car to evolve into a submarine (see seals). Likely much earlier before becoming a seal an animal facing selection pressure to go back into being a marine animal will evolve away the fear of deep water. It’s just that labs haven’t fully hit this transitional period yet.

lupire 9 hours ago | parent [-]

Is it fear of deep water, or fear of walking on a strange surface that might be unsafe? How does a dog know water is deep? Does a dog think its water bowl is deep?

You can pen a horse by painting stripes on the ground around it.

Animats 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> You can pen a horse by painting stripes on the ground around it.

No way. Horses are quite good at evaluating ground obstacles. I've never had a horse hesitate at a painted line.

There are some breeds of cattle which will not cross a painted imitation of a cattle guard, but those are beef animals bred to be dumb and docile.

threethirtytwo 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

We know it’s specifically a fear of deep water because there is visible different behavior when dogs run on strange but solid surfaces and water in general like puddles or hosing a dog with water.

Aaronstotle 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

When I was young we had golden retriever and the first time he saw my neighbors pool he dove in immediately and started swimming. He wasn't a complete puppy so maybe he was more confident in his ability.

bongodongobob 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

All dogs know how to swim. Afaik all *animals" know how to swim. No idea what labs have to do with any of this.

devmor 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> So many a young Lab will spend a while standing on the shore, watching humans or other dogs in the water, and fussing because they don't dare to join the fun. Then they may (for example) eventually lean too far and fall into shallow water. Within moments, they'll typically be swimming around and having the time of their lives.

Interesting, I didn’t know this was a common phenomenon! It describes exactly what happened with my childhood lab - my family would go swimming at the river and he would whine and fuss at the shore, until one day he wanted to play with another dog that was in the water so badly that he just jumped in, and was swimming around like he’d been doing it his whole life already.

bongodongobob 10 hours ago | parent [-]

Every dog does this.

_whiteCaps_ 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Humans bred out this ability in French Bulldogs :(

gishh 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

All swans are white.

devmor 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

There are a multitude of dog breeds that cannot even swim at all.

iambateman 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

One of the most beautiful, amazing things about parenting a child is thinking about “where would this child be at this age if it were another animal.”

A three day old horse can walk.

A three year old tiger is often a MOTHER to her own cubs already.

But then by six years-old the human child can do things mentally which are orders of magnitude more advanced than anything another animal has ever done. It’s really amazing.

lupire 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It really is strange how slowly humans grow to full size, and then stop.

Other animals grow in under a year or two, or never stop growing until they die.

How closely is physical size related to mental maturity?

Do other animals mentally mature approximately when they reach full size?

rsynnott 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I'm not sure it's all _that_ unique. Elephants are physically mature at 15 to 20, say, so not that different to humans. Other apes are also similarish to humans in this.

retrac 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Many cetaceans show similar dependency on their parents. They're also some of the few species where the females undergo menopause, like humans. (Elephants might have menopause, too.) Perhaps not coincidentally, maternal elders are very important for these species, often helping their children and grandchildren for decades after they are born.

begueradj 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Example of an animal which keeps growing until it dies ?

skmurphy 4 hours ago | parent [-]

goldfish, lobster, crocodile, crab, python, shark to name a few. It's referred to as indeterminate growth.

thomastjeffery 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What if a 3 day old human knew how to walk? I don't think that would look any different, because they physically can't do it anyway.

The first couple years of human development completely change the structure of the body. Walking is only possible after a significant amount of that process has happened, and the body keeps developing even after you learn how to walk.

A three minute old horse is both structurally and mentally prepared to run. A three year old horse will be taller and heavier, but not structurally different enough to change what walking is to their brain.

What a horse can never do as well as a human, is to learn a completely new behavior. Our brains are unmatched for flexibility in learning. Infant humans don't need to be born with the knowledge or the structure for waking. Both can develop together over time because our brains are able to develop new behavior.

The mystery here is the difference between a horse thinking "legs go" and a human thinking "legs that are just ready to hold me up, do what I see other people do, and don't fall over". We only have a vague linguistic model to express our understanding of the underlying complexity.

Der_Einzige 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The whole "3 year old tiger is already a mother" thing makes perfect sense when you think about relative life spans.

I don't expect my dog to wait to have puppies until it's past 18, because many dogs don't even live that long!

Retric 8 hours ago | parent [-]

Scaling for lifespan they are having kids at ~14 which humans can do, but the average first time mother in the US is 27.5.

lo_zamoyski 8 hours ago | parent [-]

And something human beings used to do.

Retric 8 hours ago | parent [-]

The average was significantly higher than 14 even in hunter gatherer societies. Women in studied hunter gather societies had their first kid around 19 with a mix of teens and early 20’s being common.

pfannkuchen 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Wasn’t puberty later back then too? Like people weren’t waiting around post puberty saving themselves for whatever, puberty just happened alongside full adult body maturation, not before as often happens today.

frankest 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Puberty even today has to do somewhat with body weight. You have to reach a certain level to get it. Malnutrition may have delayed it in prehistoric times.

micromacrofoot 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

actually the later puberty ages may have been a temporary side-effect of malnutrition common during industrialization, there's some evidence that hunter-gatherers (and even people during medieval times) had good access to animal protein, fats, and other necessary vitamins and minerals from plant life (nutrition plays a big role in puberty onset)

micromacrofoot 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Biologically this may simply be because it's safer to give birth when you're fully grown

lo_zamoyski 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

That may be true, but I'm thinking of much of the ancient world. It would not have been unusual then.

MangoToupe 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> orders of magnitude more advanced than anything another animal has ever done.

I can't be the only person to find thinking about cognition like this to be a little odd. It's like the biological myth of progress. It's true we can reason about the world in ways many animals can't, but we're also biased to view reason (and recursive language, which is its engine) as "more advanced" as that's primarily what distinguishes us from other animals (and even then certainly to a lesser extent than we are able to know!), and obviously we are extremely attenuated to how humans (our own babies!) mature. Meanwhile ants in many ways have more organized society than we do. Why is this not considered a form of advanced cognition? I think we need more humility as a species.

iambateman 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Next time I’m at the zoo, I’ll run this by the zebras to see what they think.

:) I’m being sarcastic but it seems self evident to me that human cognition is a unique treasure on this planet and—while it’s true that ants and octopus and other creatures do some amazing things—-they’re not even close to us. We can agree to disagree but I’m just psyched about the psyche.

G3rn0ti 8 hours ago | parent [-]

While I agree with you, I think, having cognition is not black and white. There are animals with great cognition skills especially among predators. Our brains are essentially anticipation machines capable of predicting the future — a trait uniquely advantageous when hunting other animals. We just happen to have specialized on this trait to the extreme (and otherwise lack good sensory organs or impressive innate weapons).

Whenever this topic comes up I have to think about this octopus who escaped an aquarium. [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inky_(octopus)

LPisGood 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think it’s pretty fair to say humans have advanced cognition. There is no myth here, other animals barely use tools, change the world around them, create and pass on information, etc

MangoToupe 9 hours ago | parent [-]

> There is no myth here

The myth is in reducing complex behavior to a single dimension and calling it "advanced" rather than, well, more human-like. I'm skeptical of the utility of this "advanced" conception. There's no objective reason to view tools, language, etc as particularly interesting. Subjectively of course it's understandable why we're interested in what makes us human.

throwaway2562 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Good grief. This is what 20 years of language policing has wrought. People who are nervous (hiding behind ‘skeptical’) about words like ‘advanced’ when, by any number of dimensions, human cognition is uncontroversially superior, more advanced, more fluid, more deep, more adaptive, more various (pick one, nervous people) to that of spiders or cows.

Or is that all just a ‘myth?’

CamperBob2 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This entire subthread belongs on the 'HN Simulator' story.

MangoToupe 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Heart-making-hands-emoji-with-skin-tone-1

MangoToupe 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I'm not nervous, I just don't see the utility. Perhaps you can elucidate this for me.

Espressosaurus 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

You're communicating ideas across unknown thousands of miles with a stranger in near realtime and are able to comprehend each other, for one.

No cat or dog has managed that feat yet.

No cat or dog has managed to reproduce fire to the degree that evolution has changed their gut to adapt to the increase in available calories.

The big brain comes with down sides, but one thing it does have is utility.

Germ theory of disease has made it so a scratch isn't fatal anymore. Why, after all, do cats play with their prey? To tire it out so there's less chance of injury when they go in for the kill.

We just figure out how to farm it instead and mold it to our needs.

MangoToupe 5 hours ago | parent [-]

I don't disagree with any of this, but what is the utility of viewing this ability as "more advanced"?

throwaway2562 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

What is the utility of denying it?

What do you or anyone else actually get from such obvious absurdity, I wonder?

If it helps - and I have doubts - does (say) a working knowledge of Galois theory require more advanced mathematical cognition than arithmetic?

Would it be immoral to introduce such ghastly, hierarchical language? Etc.

I see you ignored the obvious rejoinder downthread, which stated that the utility of classifying behaviours or capacities is to help you predict outcomes.

How much more help do you need here? It’s not very complicated, but you prefer to showboat.

munificent 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Let's say you're about to embark on a cross-oceanic sailing voyage. For safety reasons, you think it's best to bring another living being with you who can help if things go south or you are incapacitated.

Are you going to bring another human, or a goat? Can a goat navigate while you sleep? Can it apply first aid to you? Can it respond on the VHF radio if you get hailed? Can it operate the bilge pump?

MangoToupe 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Embarking on a cross-oceanic sailing voyage seems to be a particularly human brand of tomfoolery. Why not just stay at home with the goat?

munificent an hour ago | parent [-]

I honestly can't tell if you think you're being funny, deep, or just trolling.

antisthenes 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> I don't disagree with any of this, but what is the utility of viewing this ability as "more advanced"?

Because that's the most accurate description of what it is. The more accurately you describe something, the more effectively you communicate, an aspect of more advanced cognition.

aoeusnth1 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The utility is that it's predictive of future observations, like all good language.

goatlover 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Tool use allowed humans to colonize the planet and outcompete all rivals. We became a super predator species. We even gained the ability to look beyond our home. We look for evidence of other such advanced tool users in space.

observationist 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Humans have fingers and thumbs and sophisticated wiring of throat, lips, and tongue.

Wire up a gorilla with the equivalent hands and vocalization capacity, negate the wild hormonal fluctuations, and give that gorilla a more or less human upbringing, and they're going to be limited in cognition by the number of cortical neurons - less than half that of humans, but more than sufficient to learn to talk.

The amazing thing isn't necessarily that brains get built-in environmental shortcuts and preprogrammed adaptations, but that nearly everything involved in higher level cognition is plastic. Mammalian brains, at the neocortical level, can more or less get arbitrarily programmed and conditioned, so intelligence comes down to a relative level of overall capacity (number, performance of neurons) and platform (what tools are you working with.)

Give a whale, dolphin, or orca some neuralink adapters for arms and dexterous hands, and a fully operational virtual human vocal apparatus, and they'd be able to match humans across a wide range of cognitive capabilities.

By co-opting neural capacity for some arbitrary human capabilities equivalent, you might cripple something crucial to that animal's survival or well-being, the ethics are messy and uncertain, but in principle, it comes down to brains.

What makes us interesting as humans is that we got the jackpot set of traits that drove our species into the meta-niche. Our ancestors traits for adaptability generalized, and we started optimizing the generalization, so things like advanced vocalization and fancy fingerwork followed suit.

kbenson 6 hours ago | parent [-]

> Give a whale, dolphin, or orca some neuralink adapters for arms and dexterous hands, and a fully operational virtual human vocal apparatus, and they'd be able to match humans across a wide range of cognitive capabilities.

While I don't disbelieve this out of hand, I can think of different things that might easily make this untrue. On what evidence is this assertion based? Is it just "our brains are essentially similar and much of it is not hard wired therefore they should perform the same" or is there deeper science and/or testing behind this?

observationist 3 hours ago | parent [-]

There's a lot of data that seems to fit. I'd say the science heavily leans this way - things like the dog/cat talking button studies, AI vocalization research in primates, whales, and birds, a whole ton of biological research across mammals, and most data start to paint a picture of mammalian brain structure being more important than particular quirks of human brain biology.

There are some theories of function out there, like that of Numenta, which seems consistent across mammal brains, and is at least partially explanatory of cognitive function at a cellular level. There's also value to be found in LLMs and AI research in understanding networks and recursion and what different properties of structures that perform different functions have to conform to.

Pilot whales and blue whales and some other species have upwards of 45B cortical neurons, and if higher cognitive function is conserved across species, then they'd have the potential to be significantly more intelligent than humans - all else being equal.

A useful thought experiment is to compare different species to feral humans. Absent culture, the training, education, knowledge, and framework for understanding reality, without language, natural and wild living is pretty grim and intense. There's a whole lot we take for granted underpinning our abilities to reach the heights of technology and abstract use of language and thought.

It could be humans and primates have some sort of magic sauce - a particular quirk of networking or neurochemistry that augments relative capabilities, as opposed to embodiment or other factors. People have sought the magic sauce for decades, however, and that doesn't seem to be a viable explanation.

pyridines 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Animal intelligence is often underestimated, (e.g. there's a famous test that shows that chimpanzee working memory is better than ours) but our use of language is qualitatively different from other animals. Some animals have rudimentary communication, but no other animal is capable (as far as we know) of recursive, infinitely variable language structure like us.

rolisz 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Objective reason: humans have done the most change to the planet (and have put stuff into space). No other species has done that.

oceanplexian 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Also objective:

As far as we know humans are the only species to leave Earth’s gravity well. No other species has been able to do that in 4 billion years.

NobodyNada 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Humans have not left Earth's gravity well. We've built probes that have, but humans have only gotten as far as orbit.

pezezin 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Did you forget about the Moon landings?

NobodyNada 5 hours ago | parent [-]

That's pretty close to escaping the Earth's gravity well, but not quite out, since the Moon is definitely still orbiting the Earth.

MangoToupe 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> humans have done the most change to the planet (and have put stuff into space).

I think we have a long way to go to catch up with algae.

kruffalon 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Please never change (in thus regard at least)!

I agree with you, it's not obviously clear what "advanced" means in this context if we don't automatically equate it with humanlike.

anthonypasq 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

brother we could easily eliminate 99% of life on the planet tomorrow or drastically alter the composition of the atmosphere if we wanted to.

shpx 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

That remaining 1% are then actually the most advanced species, since they can continue their billion year existence through a blip of a couple thousand years when the environment became a bit more radioactive. We're so fragile that we're effectively biologically unstable, they're so advanced that they don't even need to know what happened.

MangoToupe 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It's not our capacity that matters but our actual behavior. Sure, we could cause even greater mass extinction. But will we choose preservation over suicide? That matters in evaluating our role in the hierarchy of life

cindyllm 4 hours ago | parent [-]

[dead]

stray 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I think it's funny that humans think humans are uniquely advanced. The brain thinks the brain is the most awesome machine in the universe :-)

GuB-42 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Homan cognition is more advanced than in any other animal. I think it is clear enough. Humans are not the only animals that evolved higher intelligence, but we have a combination of attributes that made it really effective: we are larger animals (with room for a big brain) with a social structure and a relatively long lifespan (good for passing knowledge).

Ants beat us when it comes to society, but in a sense, we may also consider multicellular organisms as a society of single cells. Still impressive, and there is a good chance for ants to outlive us as a species, but we are still orders of magnitude more intelligent than ants, including collective intelligence.

By intelligence, I mean things like adaptability and problem solving, both collective and individual. It is evident in our ability to exploit resources no animals could, or our ability to live in places that would normally be unsurvivable to us. It doesn't mean we are the pinnacle of evolution, we have some pretty good competitors (including ants) but we are certainly the most advanced in one very imporant area.

MangoToupe 5 hours ago | parent [-]

I think this is the best argument yet. Not sure how much I agree, but it's a satisfying analysis. Cheers.

8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
lo_zamoyski 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> But then by six years-old the human child can do things mentally which are orders of magnitude more advanced than anything another animal has ever done.

It is amazing.

I would make a stronger claim, however. That is, I would qualify these comparisons as analogous. When people say that adult members of some species are "smarter" than a human child of age X, because they can do Y while the child still can't, then this is an analogous comparison. Many intellectual errors are rooted in the false dichotomy between the univocal and equivocal. So, if I ask, if an animal of species X doing Y is doing the same thing as a human being doing Y, some people will take the univocal position, because there is an appearance of the same thing going on (few will take the equivocal position here and deny any similarity), but it is more accurate to say that something analogical is happening. A dog eating is like a human being eating in some sense, but they are not univocal, nor are they totally dissimilar.

somenameforme 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

One of the most curious things I learned about babies is that they are born with a walking instinct, long before they actually can walk. If you hold them up, they will move their legs in a perfectly correct walking fashion. But they lack the strength and agility to keep their body up. At around 3 months this walking instinct disappears, and then at around a year we 'relearn' to walk when we have the strength and agility to hold ourselves up.

But if we were on a planet with significantly lower gravity, humans would likely be walking very near immediately.

lordnacho 14 hours ago | parent | next [-]

One of my kids could stand on the day she was born. She seemed super strong, so while I held her I just took my hands away, and she stood there and stared at the rest of the family. Lasted a good 10 seconds, then I thought it was enough.

iambateman 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

According to my wife, who is an OT, children are born with a reflex that straightens their legs and which sounds similar to what you saw.

She said they lose the reflex during their first year, and then develop the actual skill of standing separately.

It was fun to watch with our kids, too!

trelane 9 hours ago | parent [-]

Is this separate from the prenatal kicking? Or just a continuation of it?

iambateman 9 hours ago | parent [-]

I don’t know, it was just something she mentioned at 3am while we’re trying to put the baby back to sleep

But I think it could be!

walthamstow 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

My boy is 2mo old and he could lock his legs with extreme strength in the first few days. I was very impressed, but my wife told me to stop letting his legs hold any weight. Apparently his uncle was walking at 9mo but his body wasn't ready and he gave himself a hernia.

altcognito 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Babies have strong legs in order to push themselves out of the womb

phkahler 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>> One of my kids could stand on the day she was born. She seemed super strong, so while I held her I just took my hands away, and she stood there and stared at the rest of the family. Lasted a good 10 seconds, then I thought it was enough.

Probably a good experience. However, at that age it may have been a setback if the kid fell down and got hurt because they weren't strong or coordinated enough. The experience (good or bad) of doing something for the first time can be very influential on future behavior.

dotancohen 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If we were on a planet with significantly lower gravity, walking would be much more difficult. Notably, on flat ground we absolutely must have an upward component to our application of force with the surface - this is clearly seen in videos taken on the lunar surface during the Apollo missions. This baby on a hypothetical lower gravity world would find standing easier, yes, but not mobility. At least not once he's taken his first few trail steps.

stonemetal 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

If gravity were lower we would have evolved differently, walking would have adapted too. On the other hand babies probably wouldn't be able to walk either. Being mobile, defenseless, and not having "runaway!" as the default defense mechanism (like horses) is an evolutionary dead end.

rowanG077 9 hours ago | parent [-]

Sure we might have evolved differently. But that doesn't mean that the human body doesn't work better at sustained 0.8G or 1.2G or whatever.

mikkupikku 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Problem is we don't have any good data about which gravitational accelerations would be suitable for long term health. We have 1g as our baseline, and we know that months in 0g messes you up and longer is a bad idea. We don't know anything about the long-term effects of living in Mars or Lunar gravity though. It could be studied using von Braun stations, but nobody has done it.

lukan 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The moon has very little gravity bringing extra problems, but maybe Mars would have the right gravity to enable Babies walk from the beginning?

jonplackett 17 hours ago | parent [-]

If you enjoy this kind of speculating you might like the Expanse series of books and TV shows.

They have humans growing up on Mars, the asteroid belt, moons. Anyone who doesn’t grow up on earth cannot go there without extreme gravity training.

le-mark 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

That series strived for realism in that regard, and in using magnetic boots to work in zero gravity; which was admirable. That made the things that were not realistic stand out even more imo. The (unfortunately named) Epstein drive, a drive that consumes very little mass under constant acceleration allows for relativistic speeds in very little time (weeks). Their ships were flying from one side of the solar system to the other in weeks, but they couldn’t make interstellar flights? Also the effects of cosmic rays and hard radiation on reproduction makes the disaffected belter population seem impossible. That’s all fine of course, just inconsistent imo.

Shohreh Aghdashloo performance was a real treat though!

ghaff 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

She was also in a show with Ray Liotta (Smith) that, in spite of some unevenness, sadly didn't make it through its first season.

nilamo 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The Epstein drives are efficient, but not efficient enough to run for months at a time without stopping, and are thus unusable for interstellar travel. The books go into that when talking about Medina/Behemoth/Nauvoo... The whole reason it had a rotating drum was because the engines would only be active at the start and end of the journey.

DennisP 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Regarding reproduction, I'm willing to write that off to advanced medical technology doing DNA repair. Most of the plot wouldn't be that different with slower space drives, so I wasn't too bothered by that either.

But fwiw, it turns out it is possible to get that level of rocket performance, if ToughSF got their numbers right:

https://toughsf.blogspot.com/2019/10/the-expanses-epstein-dr...

It wouldn't look the same and the power level would be higher than what all of civilization uses today, but the amount of fusion fuel isn't all that remarkable. The design uses helium-3, which could be collected in large quantity from Uranus and Neptune.

lukan 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I did enjoy the first season of the series, but then was turned off by some story arcs, but maybe I will give it a try again. Are the books more consistent?

wafflemaker 16 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Much more consistent. Books are huge, hence the need to shorten them.

But IMHO, series have done a really good job overall. Given how nearly impossible it is to simulate micro-gravity, or other advanced technology.

dotancohen 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Also, in season three or four suddenly everybody started cursing all the time. The series just wasn't fun to watch anymore.

jazzypants 13 hours ago | parent [-]

I legitimately did not notice this and I cannot imagine it affecting my enjoyment of a show.

jonplackett 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Walking would probably suck on such a planet and we would see babies bounding long distances instead!

elric 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

IIRC they also have a swimming/diving instinct/reflex, which they similarly seem to unlearn after a while.

itsalwaysgood 12 hours ago | parent [-]

Infants will also grip anything you place in their hands.

lrivers 11 hours ago | parent [-]

They will also grab with their toes. Place your finger across their toes between the foot and the sweet little toesies and they will grip your finger pretty hard. We monkey

10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
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mrtksn 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

IIRC Andrej Karpathy in a recent talk made a point that reading a book isn't like memorizing the book, it's more like prompting the brain with the book.

So maybe this concept of being ready to go at birth isn't about the animals ability to start doing things but just a way of upbringing regardless of how ready the animal is to function. Maybe pigs just start prompting early. AFAIK human babies can swim right out of the womb. In other words, maybe the distinction between precocial and non-precocial(I don't know if there's a word for that) animals isn't that clear?

phi-go 12 hours ago | parent [-]

I don't think babies can swim but they know not to try and breathe in water. Which is probably what you meant.

mrtksn 12 hours ago | parent [-]

I think it's called "diving reflex", not very sure about it all but AFAIK babies can learn to swim properly quite early which makes me think that humans too come with a lot of "ready to go" features but maybe need some prompting to surface

ghaff 10 hours ago | parent [-]

Kids (and even adults) definitely don't know how to swim off the bat though I have no doubt they could be taught earlier than many are. There's a reason some universities have a requirement to take swimming physical education absent a demonstrate ability to swim.

rglover 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I have an anecdote that sounds like it fits this...

The house I used to live in had a ton of blue tailed skinks around it. You could always spot a baby by its size and brightness of the blue in its tail (juveniles have a brighter hue, adults are more brown). To avoid birds, the skinks would do this shimmy under the siding of the house just across from my back porch. What surprised me is that even the babies, maybe a few days old, all knew how to do the siding shimmy. Young, old, didn't matter, you could tell they just knew how (and why) to do it.

Waterluvian 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm immediately fascinated by what I imagine are core questions explored by this domain. Largely the trade-offs. It's almost like choosing to ship a product with a hard-coded configuration vs. a more complex "discover and self-calibrate" phase.

Would the trade-off be that precocial animals are generally "configured" for the environments in which they've evolved? If I birth (well, not me directly) a foal on the moon, will it adapt to the different gravity in the first hour or is that something that's "built-in" to their programming?

Are these built-ins easy to override or modify? Maybe an animal being precogial doesn't negatively impact its ability to also be adaptive, which I think I'm making a big assumption on already.

shevy-java 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Some animals are ready to go as soon as they are born. These are called precocial animals. They are born knowing how to walk.

Early young borns that could walk, like a baby giraffe or baby rhino, often fall down or get exhausted quickly initially; tons of youtube videos show that. Humans are slow learners here, but I would not call these other animals as "born knowing how to walk" if their initial steps are so insecure. Their body structure is different though - a newborn human is basically pretty crap-built. A baby deer kind of is built differently on birth and that also makes sense if you are threatened by other predator animals like wolves or bears or lions.

masfuerte 2 hours ago | parent [-]

There's a distinction between having the knowledge and having the physical fitness.

When someone is confined to a hospital bed for months they find that they get exhausted very quickly when they next try walking. It doesn't mean they've forgotten how.

kaptainscarlet 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think all animals are born knowing how to walk, including monkeys and humans. However, that trait only surfaces at a later stage of their development.

whycome 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You can’t tell me the information and programming for all the is stored in an egg/sperm cell

agumonkey 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I wonder at which point in evolution did organisms decide to embed prototypical structures to save time at birth

_heimdall 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> They are born knowing how to walk.

I'm not aware of any way we can know this. We do know that those species are born with the physical ability to walk within the first few hours after birth. How could we distinguish between whether they were born with the knowledge of how to walk as opposed to them learning it quickly since their body can physically do it?

bob1029 14 hours ago | parent | next [-]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_pattern_generator#Loco...

throw-qqqqq 9 hours ago | parent [-]

This was very interesting to read! TIL thank you

csomar 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

How about running from snakes for their lives right after they hatch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=el4CQj-TCbA

_heimdall 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Are you proposing that as an example that animals (and humans) seem to be born with natural instincts for survival or that we know they are born with that information?

If the latter, how do you propose we know that as a fact? Presumably we would really need to know how that information is passed down to the child and how it knows how to interpret it. To my best understanding, we effectively stop at DNA seeming to be a complex set of instructions for how to make the animal. We don't know if or how it might encode knowledge, or if something else entirely is at play to make those instincts known to the newborn.

csomar 9 hours ago | parent [-]

Watch the video. The iguana just hatched and is already going on insane escape from snakes. That information has to be encoded there from the start. Thus without it would have been probably naturally selected out.

_heimdall 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I agree it seems highly likely, I just can't make the leap to "has to be" when we know so little (if anything?) about how that would work.

Maybe I'm just being pedantic here, if so that wasn't my intent. I very much agree that anything being born seems to already known more than we give credit for, I just can't do absolute certainty there.

chrisweekly 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

that was amazing, thanks for sharing!

tim333 11 hours ago | parent [-]

Remarkable really that they can jump around the rocks like that just after hatching. (jump bit https://youtu.be/el4CQj-TCbA?t=217)

13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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BurningFrog 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If you're a prey animal being born in open terrain, you need to be able to run at full speed right away.

foofoo12 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Some animals are ready to go as soon as they are born

That trade has an extreme genetic advantage when other animals see you as their succulent mains on the a la carte exotic wildlife menu.

alfonsodev 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

is it true that it's a tradeoff ? the "more precocial" the less flexibility to learn new things ? on the contrary knowing less equals less assumptions, which needs more flexibility in exchange.

Would be true that what is precocial in us is the ability mimic and abstract specific patterns into general rules ?

BananaaRepublik 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Naturally, I'm a dev. Could it be something to do with limited genetic storage being dedicated to software instead of coding for hardware capabilities? In my limited knowledge, increasing DNA size comes at a maintainance cost(transcription, replication etc), so there's a soft upper bound.

idiotsecant 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It must be a tradeoff. I don't have any proof, but my thinking is that we pay an extraordinary price in terms of resources required to keep human babies safe for years before they can keep themselves safe. That is a strong selection pressure on everyone involved. The fact that it still happens means it must somehow be worth it.

adrianN 13 hours ago | parent [-]

Humans are born quite prematurely so that the head fits through the birth canal.

guerrilla 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> precocial

I thought you misspelled presocial, but precoial is etymologically related to precocious, both originally meaning early-maturing or something along those lines.

thaumasiotes 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> They are born knowing how to walk.

This is unlikely to be a good way to think about them. The norm is for animals to be born knowing how to move. Whether they actually can move shortly after birth is more of a question of muscle development than knowledge.

For example, when birds are held immobile until they're old enough to fly, they fly normally.