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ekidd 14 hours ago

> It's interesting seeing what comes built-in. You can see this if you watch a horse being born.

A fascinating example of this are some Labrador retrievers. Labs are descended from a Newfoundland "landrace" of dogs known as St Johns Water Dogs. They have multiple aquatic adaptations: the "otter tail", oily fur, and webbed feet. (Some of these are shared with other water-oriented breeds.) Some lines of Labradors, especially the "bench" or English dogs, normally retain this full suite of water adaptations.

But the wild thing about these particular Labradors is that they love to swim, and that most of them are born knowing how to swim very well. But they don't know that they know how to swim. So many a young Lab will spend a while standing on the shore, watching humans or other dogs in the water, and fussing because they don't dare to join the fun. Then they may (for example) eventually lean too far and fall into shallow water. Within moments, they'll typically be swimming around and having the time of their lives.

The near-instant transformation from "fascinated by water and fearing it" to "hey I can swim and this is the absolute best thing ever" is remarkable to watch, though not recommended.

I remember another Lab, who'd been afraid to go swimming, who one day impulsively bolted for the water, took an impressive leap off a rock, and (from his reaction) apparently realized in mid-air that he had no idea what he was going to do next. Once he hit the water, he was fortunately fine, to the great relief of his owner.

CAUTION: This behavior pattern is apparently NOT universal in Labs. Owners of "field" or American Labs seem to have much better thought-out protocols for introducing hunting dogs to water, and failure to follow these protocols may result in bad experiences, dogs that fear water, and actual danger to dogs. So please consult an expert.

xyzzy_plugh 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This behavior has practically nothing to do with Labradors. Many, many dogs regardless of breed can do this. Cats too. And foxes and wolves and rats and... well pretty much all quadrupeds with reasonable sizes limbs relative to their body. You might notice it's more or less the same motion as walking. Animals that drown usually do so from exhaustion, not because they can't keep their head above water.

Primates are relatively unique in their complete lack of innate swimming abilities.

altgeek 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Yes, while these motor reflexes are not innate, autonomic responses remain. Search for the "mammalian diving reflex".

cma 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Primates are relatively unique in their complete lack of innate swimming abilities.

Human babies can swim, so it's maybe more initially an innate one that gets lost. Though they won't be able to keep their head over water by default if that's what you meant (can be trained to as a toddler). But I'm talking about swimming on the umbilical in water births, etc., showing that there isn't a complete lack of innate swimming abilities.

lupire 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Is it "primates" or is it the strange semi/erect limb attachment that primates have?

9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
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threethirtytwo 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You may not have noticed but you are also describing an inborn fear of deep water.

Does the dog fear drinking water? No. So the dog specifically fears deep water. What taught him to specifically fear deep water over a bowl of water? Most likely he was also born with the fear.

This also tells us that evolution often results in conflicting instincts… a fear of water and an instinct to swim. Most likely what occurred here is an early ancestor of the lab originally feared water and was not adapted to swim well. The feature that allowed it to swim well came later and is sort of like retrofitting a car to swim. You need to wait a really long time for the car to evolve into a submarine (see seals). Likely much earlier before becoming a seal an animal facing selection pressure to go back into being a marine animal will evolve away the fear of deep water. It’s just that labs haven’t fully hit this transitional period yet.

lupire 9 hours ago | parent [-]

Is it fear of deep water, or fear of walking on a strange surface that might be unsafe? How does a dog know water is deep? Does a dog think its water bowl is deep?

You can pen a horse by painting stripes on the ground around it.

Animats 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> You can pen a horse by painting stripes on the ground around it.

No way. Horses are quite good at evaluating ground obstacles. I've never had a horse hesitate at a painted line.

There are some breeds of cattle which will not cross a painted imitation of a cattle guard, but those are beef animals bred to be dumb and docile.

threethirtytwo 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

We know it’s specifically a fear of deep water because there is visible different behavior when dogs run on strange but solid surfaces and water in general like puddles or hosing a dog with water.

Aaronstotle 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

When I was young we had golden retriever and the first time he saw my neighbors pool he dove in immediately and started swimming. He wasn't a complete puppy so maybe he was more confident in his ability.

bongodongobob 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

All dogs know how to swim. Afaik all *animals" know how to swim. No idea what labs have to do with any of this.

devmor 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> So many a young Lab will spend a while standing on the shore, watching humans or other dogs in the water, and fussing because they don't dare to join the fun. Then they may (for example) eventually lean too far and fall into shallow water. Within moments, they'll typically be swimming around and having the time of their lives.

Interesting, I didn’t know this was a common phenomenon! It describes exactly what happened with my childhood lab - my family would go swimming at the river and he would whine and fuss at the shore, until one day he wanted to play with another dog that was in the water so badly that he just jumped in, and was swimming around like he’d been doing it his whole life already.

bongodongobob 10 hours ago | parent [-]

Every dog does this.

_whiteCaps_ 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Humans bred out this ability in French Bulldogs :(

gishh 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

All swans are white.

devmor 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

There are a multitude of dog breeds that cannot even swim at all.