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mvieira38 3 days ago

Public transportation should always be free in cities, with car commuters paying the operation costs. Not saying it can be implemented right away, but it should be a policy goal for cities.

You have all the right in the world to prefer driving and chilling on your air conditioning and stereo if you can afford it, but it shouldn't be free if you're occupying the lane space 10 people would occupy in a bus, and making the traffic slower for the bus in doing so.

cyprien_g 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Completely agree with you. I live in Montpellier, France, and we have had free public transportation for a year and a half, and it's very good. I definitely use my car less and take public transport more often.

Everyone, including people without cars, pays for the roads through taxes; it is only fair to do the same for public transport.

Herring 3 days ago | parent [-]

Society pays for cars in a lot of ways other than just taxes. Roads/highways/parking takes up tons of valuable land (opportunity costs). Cars cause a lot of medical conditions, from respiratory/cardiovascular diseases, to obesity. Cars add to climate change, which causes extreme weather events. Congestion and noise impacts health and the economy, etc. Cities all around the world would be net improved with much fewer cars.

aqme28 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don't want to comment on if it should be free or not, but public transit and micromobility should always be cheaper than owning+driving a car. Even with NYC's controversial new congestion pricing, it's still cheaper to drive your family to the city than to take them via train.

kccqzy 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

No it's absolutely not cheaper to drive your family into the city. You said owning+driving a car; did you really take into account ownership costs (maintenance, insurance etc) and driving costs (tolls, parking)? Just the cost of parking alone dwarfs the cost of the train.

IshKebab 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Sure but most families need a car anyway, and once you have one the costs of ownership, maintenance, insurance etc. are irrelevant to the costs of individual trips.

const_cast 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Most families in NYC do not need to own a car, and in fact most don't.

But even then we have to consider marginal costs. Owning one car is better than two or three. Here in Texas, it's not uncommon to see households with 4 or 5 cars.

That's expensive.

somecontext 2 days ago | parent [-]

According to this graphic https://www.hunterurban.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/Car-L... 57.3% of children (0--18yo) are in a household with a car. There's a weighting issue here, but I'd still bet that most families in NYC have a car.

const_cast 2 days ago | parent [-]

Well 57% is most, although that doesn't account for having multiple kids in one household.

Either way it's close, and the closer you get to Manhattan the higher that number goes. Remember, there are over 8 million people in NYC, and over 12 million during the work day.

Mawr 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

You want to buy a second-hand car. What's the first thing you check? Yep, the mileage. The cost of a car is basically down to its depreciation, which is basically down to its mileage.

IshKebab 2 days ago | parent [-]

It's not only the mileage. Age is very important too. Look at any car advert - it's the age that is highlighted first. Mileage only if it is unusually low.

Many components degrade simply due to time, especially things like rubber seals.

aqme28 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

A family of 4 is charged $2.90x2 in subway fares, which is more than the $15 congestion price for a car.

colechristensen 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Commuting as one person from Mountain View to SF was cheaper with a car including the total ownership cost of the car, nevermind the reasonable discount for "stuff I wand to do with my car other than commute".

And riding caltrain during peak hours for an hour twice a day would violate the Geneva Convention on the treatment of prisoners of war.

bkettle 3 days ago | parent [-]

Riding Caltrain during peak hours is totally fine and not unpleasant at all, particularly with the new trains (I do it most days and am writing this comment while doing so)

colechristensen 3 days ago | parent [-]

I left California before the new trains were a thing, but peak hours going north starting in Mountain View meant standing room only tightly packed on the world's more unstable train cars.

kccqzy 2 days ago | parent [-]

I took Caltrain regularly pre-pandemic when I had a job in Palo Alto and going to SF. It was not bad at all. Other cities like NYC had way more packed trains.

komali2 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> and making the traffic slower for the bus in doing so.

Strong agree except here, busses should have their own lanes at all expense to cars - even if this means entire roads are now no longer available to cars.

The private car should be the slowest, least convenient way to get where you're going.

mvieira38 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

We have dedicated bus lanes where I live, and they don't really work during heavy rush hour, unfortunately, due to merging and turns. For example, most of the time the bus lane needs to be on the right so it can pick people up, so cars turning right will have to cross the bus lane somewhere. The opposite happens if the bus needs to take a left turn, or if another bus is stopped for maintenance or something and overtaking is necessary.

Not to mention a lot of people figure out where the cameras are for the bus lane auto-fines and just dodge them when appropriate, but I guess that's a third world problem.

jewayne 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Actual Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) systems are in place all over the world, where there are physical barriers protecting the bus lane, and transit signal priority along the entire route. They work extremely well when they don't rely on motorists being on their best behavior.

amanaplanacanal 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

If they don't work where you live, it's because they are poorly designed.

ferguess_k 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Agree with dedicated bus lanes. But your attitude is problematic. You sounds like private cars are your enemies. Private car drivers, in a whole, are also public (just not public services). If you count them as your enemies, they will vote against you.

If you have this attitude, please never ever get into a private car. Good luck!

komali2 2 days ago | parent [-]

I drive a private motorcycle sometimes. It's not like I don't have empathy. I get it - the allure of the ultimately selfish option that puts your comfort and convenience over everyone else's. In abomination cities like Houston it's not like there's an alternative, and society kowtows to you so much as a driver it's no wonder why every driver parked on a sidewalk is confused as I explain to them why what they're doing is wrong. You can almost see their thoughts writ across their face: "but, there was no parking available, and this was free space. Free space in cities is... For cars..." Never mind they're about to get out of their car and become a pedestrian themselves!

Thanks for the warning, but a couple decades of activism has tought me long ago to let go of the idea of winning total support from the most strident opposition. Sometimes people just need to be dragged kicking and screaming into a better world for them and their neighbors. That's ok.

bluGill 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Public transportation should always be free in cities, with car commuters paying the operation costs

Strongly disagree. There are too many perverse incentives that work against transit. If there are a lot of car commuters (which there will be - plumbers taking their tools to the job for example) they have inventive to pressure politicians to reduce that tax - any voting block will always be more powerful than the distributed masses. Your transit operators need to ensure transit doesn't become too popular: the more people taking transit the less cars there are paying that tax.

Besides almost no transit rider is worried about costs. They are all interested instead in better service, so use all the money you can get - including fares - to build better service. This is long term what everyone needs.

Yes you do need a program for the poor. However the majority of your people shouldn't be in that program.

jewayne 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

I'm going to guess that you're a fellow American. That's our answer to everything - build a ghetto. Why make anything nice for everybody when you can make it suck for 79% of us, Hell on Earth for another 20+%, and nice for the privileged few?

lupusreal 3 days ago | parent [-]

Most ghettos aren't built to be ghettos. They were built as nice neighborhoods and have nothing structurally wrong with them, but then had criminals and shitbags wreck the place. Ghettoification can in fact be reversed without any changes to infrastructure by simply having nice people move in who give a shit and make an effort to clean up and maintain their properties. This is derogatorily called "gentrification".

Also, your ratios are absurdly out of wack. 79% of the country doesn't live in a ghetto and you don't need to be economically or socially privileged to maintain a nice neighborhood. Most working class neighborhoods are not ghettos, nor even resemble one in the slightest.

jewayne 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

The ghetto is that bottom 20% living in Hell, not the 79% who merely deal with things that suck.

Although I was more referring to our systems more broadly (health care, education, transportation - the topic of this post), let's go with neighborhoods. Are you really trying to pretend that red-lining didn't happen? Or that de facto sundown towns didn't exist at least into the 1980s?

bluGill 3 days ago | parent [-]

While things are bad for some people, calling the bottom 20% living in Hell is an exaggeration that is nowhere near correct. People always complain about their situation and think it is somehow much worse than other people, so if you see someone who is in worse shape you can think it is a living hell. However the reality is very different, and if you step back and look you discover most people in that bottom 20% are happy overall despite having imperfections.

abeppu 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I mean in the US a bunch of them are still the remaining product of redlining policies where racial minorities were allowed to live but banks would not give loans. Housing segregation was planned and enforced. That sounds a lot like intentional creation of a ghetto. And later when cities need to invest in building amenities, or raze neighborhoods to make way for infrastructure, often it's been the minority neighborhoods that are neglected or destroyed respectively. Of _course_ ghettos are the result of planning and intentional policy.

baggy_trough 3 days ago | parent [-]

Which is a more likely explanation for why banks did not make loans in redlined neighborhoods?

A) Every bank is run by racists who are sufficiently racist to ignore a profit opportunity

B) The neighborhoods are bad credit risks

abeppu 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

To be very clear, redlining didn't happen just because a bunch of individual bankers happened to be racist. It was a consequence of federal policy -- the FHA would insure loans in white neighborhoods but not in minority neighborhoods, so even for a rational banker uninterested in race, it made sense to issue the loans for white home buyers, and not minority home buyers, even if they were financially qualified. The "redline" choices were not where a bunch of separate banks had independently decided that some "bad risk" threshold was crossed -- they were picked by HOLC/FHA. The FHA also subsidized construction of white housing developments, but not minority ones.

When people refer to "systemic racism", the "systemic" part is typically literal.

Also, I invite you to take a step back and interrogate the examine the implicit premises of your question. I think you're saying that _in a free market of rational agents_, it doesn't make economic sense to not issue loans to people who _aren't_ credit risks, and I would agree -- except housing segregation was always about a heavily artificially manipulated (not free) market, in which people of color couldn't purchase a home in a white neighborhood regardless of their willingness to pay. Public policy bent over backwards to coerce all parties to maintain segregation (e.g. sundown towns, racial covenants, etc), ironically including during cold-war years when the US simultaneously tried to be a global advocate for free markets.

baggy_trough 2 days ago | parent [-]

Thank you for pointing out that history. I will look into it further.

bluGill 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Do you mean today or in 1950? In 1950 I'll go with racists for the majority of banks. Today race is not a factor, but credit risks are still important.

baggy_trough 3 days ago | parent [-]

You only need one bank to seize the profit by making a loan. Every single bank was motivated by racism to deny profitable loans?

mvieira38 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Wow, that first paragraph is a compelling political economy argument against this policy that I hadn't really thought of. Your model seems to take the assumptions that the trade industries can't reorganize to optimize car usage, and that transit operators have only one stream of income (the car tax).

Both are untrue, IMO, and in the desired steady state the car tax is in fact near zero, substituted by higher taxes on everything else. Even if that ends up making the city more expensive, the variation in utility is still at least positive if we model citizens' utility functions as negatively sloped on the pollution axis, and of course if we are assuming the central planning wants to comply with global warming goals.

I would even question if tradespeople would be against paying the car tax if it gets commuters out of the road, to be honest. I'd wager a plumber would be more than willing to pay even 100$ monthly if you worded it as "you get a fast pass to avoid all traffic and get everywhere as fast as the speed limit" and not "it's a tax on your car".

mvieira38 3 days ago | parent [-]

It's also false that transit prices are small, by the way, at least globally. Where I live (third world), taking the subway daily to and from work amounts to 14% of minimum wage

bluGill 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Cars cost more than transit for most people. However transit is expensive no matter how you look at it. The money to run it much come from someplace.

mvieira38 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Yes, transit costs a total X. In the car regime everyone puts in a small amount towards public transit and roads and richer folk put high amounts towards cars, totalling X. In the public transit regime everyone puts in a medium amount towards roads and public transit, and a negligible amount of tradespeople and construction companies buy their work vehicles, totalling X.

You can choose the car regime if you want, the US does, but: 1- public transit is lower quality due to higher income brackets choosing cars. 2- everyone is screwed by the cars' negative externalities (noise and air pollution mainly). 3- lower income brackets are screwed by the traffic generated by the higher guys (50 minimum wage workers occupying the same lane space as 3 SUV-driving middle managers). Also you have to remember how much the mortality increases in higher car traffic areas, so that X figure isn't really true

bluGill 3 days ago | parent [-]

You shouldn't use X as your only variable as it sort of implies a fixed amount that is the same either way. However the systems are different and should have different costs.

lesuorac 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

That's just because the roads are built out by the Department of Transportation no?

Like if you had to drive on toll roads built underground then nobody would ever drive (see Hyperloop). I think the big mistake being made is people are arguing for free subways and really we should just go to free buses first.

bluGill 3 days ago | parent [-]

I'm against free buses in general (though probably not in this particular case) because people want to get places. That money from bus fares should be put to running more buses (or building subways... lots of options, but more service). Nobody proposing free transit has ever proposed anywhere enough money that the city can run all needed services. They can maybe come up with enough money to continue current service, but every city in the world needs more transit service. You need service that can get you from where you are to where you want to be, when you want to go. Sometimes that place is farther away (but not unreasonably far) and you need high speed express service. Sometimes you are running late and miss the bus/train - is the next bus/train coming soon enough that you are not unreasonably late? Sometimes you need to be out late, is service still running? Sometimes you want to do something on a weekend. More service is needed everywhere and that lack of service is the primary reason people buy cars which are ready when people want to go (they claim otherwise but when I dig down it comes down to service)

mtalantikite 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Here in NYC the transit fare is about 35% of the minimum hourly wage for a round trip. I'd guess it's still cheaper than owning and maintaining a car though.

bluGill 3 days ago | parent [-]

Minimum hourly wage is a terrible metric - very few people make that wage. In your areas where transit is most useful it is also the most economically productive so even less people are making minimum wage than the normal population. I don't the cities in question, but in general these days minimum wages is what you see paid in the economically depressed dying small towns, or people so disabled (generally mentally) that they cannot do your easiest fast food jobs.

How do costs compare for average people in that area is a much better metric. (understand that in transit areas I'd expect people with cars to have newer luxury cars, while in more car centric areas I'd expect more used non-luxury cars, and in poor areas worn out cars - which is itself a skew of the facts)

IshKebab 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If your public transport is so popular that it's becoming infeasible to fund it from car taxes... mission fucking accomplished! That is such a wild and nonsensical fear. "But what if it's too successful?!"

qcnguy 3 days ago | parent [-]

Eh no, that is an actual failure mode. Germany is experiencing it right now. What it means is everyone ends up being forced to use horribly broken public transport and it screws up everyone's business and personal lives.

It is possible for public transport to be too popular. It looks like overloaded, crowded and constantly broken lines that can't get better because they're starved of funding.

k_g_b_ 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Public transport being massively/too popular is the only way for it to get anywhere near the level of funding it needs. That's not really a failure mode, just a symptom of the real failure. It was extremely easy for governments to ignore it and leave it to rot for decades because it had next to no lobby compared to cars.

The 9€ and Deutschlandticket reinvigorated that lobby - although that's being snuffed out again.

belorn 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Looking at the Swedish railway, the issue is related to budget but the problem is not that simple. The main issue is that the railway system lacks redundancy in track capacity, meaning that any failure require short term fixes in order to reduce short term losses. Those short term fixes eventually leads to overall higher downtime and higher failure rates, which only lead to a even more focus on quick fixes and shoddy repairs. Building out new capacity becomes too expensive and takes too long time, and takes money from the budget that is needed to do all the quick fixes that pop up. When those lines become too popular, the pressure only increases to continue do quick fixes, since any downtime has even larger impact both on the straining cargo traffic and passenger throughput.

It becomes like the meme when people talk about nuclear power. Sure, it would had been an good idea 10-20 years ago, but there is no time to do it now and it cost too much. Next year will be even later, and it will cost even more. Any new funding need to be channeled directly to the starving short-term budget, which will continue to always be too low on funding.

bluGill 2 days ago | parent [-]

One differente with nuclear power is that today we have a better option - renewables - and so nuclear doesn't make sense at all any price. By contrast we don't have anything completely better than mass transit for some cases and to it makes sense to build it and make it cheaper.

qcnguy 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

This is backwards. The public transit lobby is the Green/climate lobby which is absolutely massive and incredibly influential because it peddles to politicians a unifying moral story about the end of the world that justifies unlimited exercise of political power.

What does the auto industry have in response? Jobs? The left don't care about jobs to begin with, they view anything linked to capitalism or employers to be inherently suspicious.

To see this is true, just look at which group is a net tax payer vs net tax recipient. Car drivers subsidize public transport everywhere I know of (unless you get into stupid arguments that assume world peace exists solely for the purpose of oil transport).

bluGill 2 days ago | parent [-]

Much of the green mokement is a hypocrite that wants to appear green- but don't take their cars or gas away. And so polititians exploit that to build minimal transit - enough to look like they did something but not enough to take away cars.

birn559 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Budget for German train system has been cut and was too low for two decades. It was well known that would result in what we have today.

You have to invest in infrastructure to keep it at a high quality level. It's crowded because it has been lacking proper funding for years. It's a result of politics, nothing stops public transport from being popular and providing reasonable high quality service.

qcnguy 2 days ago | parent [-]

Inability to competently manage finances within the framework of populist democratic politics is one of the top reasons governments suck at running things and "public *" often ends in failure.

birn559 2 days ago | parent [-]

"private *" also ends in failure quite often. The German train system started to fail when it was partially privatized.

In general, governments tend to not be able to run a system efficiently, but reliably and robust while for companies it's the opposite.

qcnguy 20 hours ago | parent [-]

The German train system isn't privatized in any meaningful way, I don't think any European rail system is. They all have harsh price controls imposed by the government and are unionized, which are classically problems affecting government run services to a much greater extent than normal private sector companies.

jewayne 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I don't know much about what Germany is experiencing, but even Germany's neighbors in the Netherlands and France seem to be having a renaissance predicated upon getting people out of their personal automobiles. Perhaps the problem is actually the outsized influence of the auto industry in Germany?

qcnguy 2 days ago | parent [-]

No, auto industry is dying in Germany and was more powerful in the past. German railway collapse is a recent phenomenon. It's the inverse: the Green push to make everyone use public transport is collapsing both the auto industry and public transit there.

MangoToupe 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Your transit operators need to ensure transit doesn't become too popular: the more people taking transit the less cars there are paying that tax.

So, raise the tax. When nobody takes cars any more you figure out another way to pay for it. The existence of cars shouldn't come at the cost of public services.

Public transit makes the most sense to fund with property taxes proportional to the benefit that public transit brings in.

bluGill 3 days ago | parent [-]

> Public transit makes the most sense to fund with property taxes proportional to the benefit that public transit brings in.

Which is essentially zero in many cities. And even in cities with transit, an expansion should result in a lot more benefit than they are currently getting, but they need that money now not in 10 years after that expansion is done and the city sees that benefit.

MangoToupe 3 days ago | parent [-]

> Which is essentially zero in many cities.

??? How does this make any sense at all? You have no basically economy without transit. And you get a far greater return from mass transit than from roads.

> And even in cities with transit, an expansion should result in a lot more benefit than they are currently getting, but they need that money now not in 10 years after that expansion is done and the city sees that benefit.

This is what bonds are for....

bluGill 3 days ago | parent [-]

When I said transit I mean mass transit. Most people do not refer to roads as transit even though they are part of your transportation network.

MangoToupe 3 days ago | parent [-]

Sure, and I'm just saying there's the rational impulse to tax cars to death and then enjoy the fruits of a mass transit network. The way we have things set up now doesn't make any sense to begin with—almost like we're taxing our economic centers for existing.

1718627440 2 days ago | parent [-]

> we're taxing our economic centers for existing.

Yes. Economic centers need transport. Transport costs money to operate, so it is an external cost for an economic center. Taxes are a ways to price in external costs.

MangoToupe 2 days ago | parent [-]

> Transport costs money to operate, so it is an external cost for an economic center

Only by choice! Hence why america has such inefficient transit even compared to other such-dense metros.

1718627440 2 days ago | parent [-]

Sorry what is the choice here? That transport costs money? That transport is needed by an economic center?

const_cast 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As opposed to the automobile and petroleum industries, who famously have no perverse incentives.

ferguess_k 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I completely agree. Free for the poor people but don't give free stuffs to the other people (including me). Public services are NEVER really free - they take $$ from taxes. Looks like many people simply don't care about taxes.

amanaplanacanal 3 days ago | parent [-]

You either spend the tax money on roads, or on public transit. Roads aren't free either.

bluGill 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Roads are cheaper than transit as far as taxes go. Most of the costs of driving isn't supported by taxes - you buy and maintain your own car (the large share of the costs), and park in private parking lots. Transit not only needs the roads/rails (granted much less), but also needs to buy and maintain all the vehicles plus pay operators for them. The total costs of transit are far less, but the cost to governments is more.

qcnguy 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Roads are much cheaper and more useful. They can be used for moving freight whereas good public transport keeps freight off the lines to avoid timetabling problems caused by blockage.

const_cast 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

They're not cheaper, that's an illusion and lie sold by the automobile and petroleum industries.

The interstates in the US alone have costed more than 25 trillion dollars. That's just the interstates, no other highways or roads.

But none of that even considers cost of using said roads. In the US, on average 15% of gross income is spent on automobile transportation.

That's a 15% tax right off the top, before your other taxes.

baggy_trough 3 days ago | parent [-]

That spending pattern means that automobile transportation is very valuable compared to alternatives.

const_cast 3 days ago | parent [-]

Or it means oil and automobiles are lucrative industries with huge amount of influence.

The reasoning of "we spend a lot of money so it must be good" is just bad. No, we spend a lot of money on stupid shit all the time. Both historically and currently.

baggy_trough 3 days ago | parent [-]

I don't think people are as foolish as that when spending large amounts of their own money. There must be a good reason for it.

const_cast 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

The reason is they have no choice. Consumers are the bottom of the totem pole.

Americans spend on average 15% of their gross income on automobile transportation. That's not including their taxes that went towards said automobiles, roads, and oil.

Nobody actually wants to do that. If you could get to work without an automobile, you would. But you can't, can you?

Automobiles are parasidic in nature. To work, they require vast amounts of space and sprawling urban design. But when you get said vast amounts of space and sprawling urban design, then automobiles are the only thing that makes sense.

baggy_trough 3 days ago | parent [-]

That's my point. Automobiles are much better than any other alternative.

We have a car centric built environment because people have rationally decided for many valid reasons that automobiles are the best way to get around. It's not because they are "parasitic", whatever that means.

bluGill 3 days ago | parent [-]

Mass transit can be just as good as cars for most people at far less cost. For many people transit because it can avoid congestion and go faster than cars (even on an uncontested highway) transit should be better. However transit is lacking the network needed to make it that good.

Note that a large part of why cars are better is the network exists. If you had to drive on dirt (not even gravel!) roads that became impassible when it rains you would call cars a bad way to get around. However the road network is such that you can nearly anywhere in a car.

baggy_trough 3 days ago | parent [-]

I would just propose that the transit advocates concentrate on that goal ("Mass transit can be just as good as cars for most people at far less cost") in one small area, because in most areas in the United States, it is currently extraordinarily far from reality.

Also, they should do this without crippling cars, since that would be far easier to do than producing a compelling alternative to them as they currently exist.

Mawr 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

> Also, they should do this without crippling cars,

Do you mean without continuing to give them 99% of available resources? Cars are by far the most privileged form of transportation worldwide. We bend over backwards to subsidize them as much as possible at all costs.

So of course, any attempts at clawing back at least some of that privilege are met with outrage, e.g. bike lanes.

baggy_trough 2 days ago | parent [-]

99% of what resources? That sounds like quite an exaggeration.

I don't know if cars are subsidized more than mass transit on average. It's quite possible they are. The overwhelming majority of people find cars much more useful and enjoyable than mass transit, and politicians have to provide people with what they want to some degree. It's not a conspiracy of the oil companies.

bluGill 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Most who look like transit advocates in reality are not . They appear to be for transit but they want something else and don't care about transit.

birn559 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

A good reason for a SUV in a city is a pretty subjective matter so I don't think that alone is a good argument.

birn559 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Rails can and are used to transport freight. Trucks contribute a lot to bad traffic and therefore the same kind of blockage you mentioned.

qcnguy 2 days ago | parent [-]

Rail freight is dying everywhere outside the USA, where passenger rail died instead. Mixing the two on the same lines is very difficult and causes tremendous problems, you can't even do it once passenger rail speeds get high enough. Rail freight has been uncompetitive with trucking for a long time as a result even though rail has huge subsidies and road traffic is a revenue generator for governments.

amanaplanacanal 2 days ago | parent [-]

Is road traffic really a revenue generator for governments outside the US? In the US, it's a huge cost sink and has to be subsidized with general taxes.

qcnguy 20 hours ago | parent [-]

Sure. Road and fuel taxes have historically generated a surplus after the costs of maintaining the roads are subtracted.

EVs are changing that because they don't pay fuel tax. So, governments are now proposing to change how vehicles are taxed to make the roads pay for themselves again.

The USA is different to Europe because gas taxes are a political live wire there in a way they just aren't in Europe. Presidents win campaigns by promising to reduce the price of gas! So of course the road network is in deficit there, it's a populist move. The equivalent populism in Europe is to make public transport free instead, as the governments are more collectivist minded there, whereas in the US personal freedom is a major concern.

seanmcdirmid 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I used public transportation less when it was free here in Seattle because it felt less safe. The buses have improved a lot since Seattle started enforcing fare collection again, and a few dollars isn’t much compared to not getting stabbed by some drug addict having a fent crisis.

Switzerland is different though: you know the police aren’t going to put up with crap at all (and they will arrive fairly quickly if there is an incident), so free could really work. Although I was never tempted to drive while living in Switzerland (in the next city over from Geneva). I don’t think free works in the USA however.

ferguess_k 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I think the biggest issue is cost. Also this is completely out of sense if the city doesn't have enough public transit. It's going to be outrageous in my city at least, and it already has a reasonably well public transit in NA.