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burnt-resistor 4 days ago

We've heard the "biodegradable" greenwashing scam of plastic technology advances over and over again. Maybe we shouldn't be seeking continued use of toxic petrochemical processes and should instead change our storage and packaging materials to be less hazardous and more reusable, because many other options already exist.

StableAlkyne 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

It's very easy to say "why don't we just stop using toxic petrochemicals," but very hard to do in practice. For a sustainability advancement to be considered a success, it has to actually replace something. To replace something, it:

- has to be affordable, or people will refuse to buy it. The general public cares more for its wallet than the environment.

- has to be at least as performant as what it's replacing, or people won't want to change. The general public is not going to buy an inferior product in the name of sustainability.

- has to be more environmentally friendly than what preceeded it, or it has no benefit.

If you can find a more environmentally friendly material that is able to replace plastic, achieve its physical properties, at the same cost, then patent it and you will be very wealthy. And will have outplayed the billions (probably a lowball) being dumped into this by governments, universities, and private companies around the world.

Also, the reason most of these articles hype their own work up is because the name of the game in academia is grant money. If a funding agency doesn't think your work is impactful, they'll give it to someone who is. That's why articles rarely describe their incremental work as just being incremental.

mathgradthrow 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

It doesn't have to be cheap, It just has to be made cheaper artificially with globally enforced taxes.

The number one economic role of government is mitigating externalities that arise from free trade, often through the restraint of that trade.

anigbrowl 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

globally enforced taxes

Why not just pass a law requiring everyone to be good?

Spivak 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Congrats you just made everyone subject to those taxes artificially worse off. People aren't stupid and can see what you did. You will be voted out of office next term. If you're going to artificially adjust prices it's got to go the other way where you subsidize the behavior you want. It worked with lightbulbs.

ant6n 4 days ago | parent [-]

Or perhaps everyone is actually better of if negative externalities are taxed.

Spivak 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

You made a change which caused consumer prices to go up, folks are already struggling financially it doesn't matter if it's for a good reason.

This is the "I know you're struggling but the economy is actually doing great" but applied to environmentalism.

WillPostForFood 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Or perhaps everyone is worse off because some well connected lobbyist got the government to mandate their more expensive, less effective product.

4 days ago | parent | prev [-]
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chiffre01 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I would be interested to know the cost of more sustainable packaging at economies of scale. Almost all plastic-based packaging emerged after 1950, yet even before then, there was a need to package mass consumer goods on a large scale.

I also believe plastic and PFAS coatings are used in packaging largely because they are assumed to be the only suitable materials. However, in earlier times, there were many clever and cost-effective solutions.

georgyo 4 days ago | parent [-]

Population of the world in 1950 was 2.5 billion. The population of the world has over tripled. This world put a lot of scaling pressure on everything.

I didn't think plastics are used because they are considered the only submittable suitable material, but they are definitely the cheapest and easiest to use. You cannot injection mold wood to be the exact shape and size with a snug fit for something you are packaging.

dredmorbius 4 days ago | parent [-]

The fraction of the world's population regularly consuming manufactured and packaged goods is also increasing. That increases discarded plastics and other materials.

About a decade ago I tracked down the somewhat provocative claim that contemporary New Yorkers (city, not state) produced less refuse, by mass, than those of the 1930s. My first thoughts were that total packaging weight and waste food might account for this, older packaging materials being more ecologically-friendly, but generally more massive: wood, glass, metal, etc., and refrigeration and food preservation less developed.

Good guesses, but wrong as it happens.

The culprit was coal ash, on the order of 40% of all rubbish by weight. It had been > 80% in 1900.

Building heat was supplied by boilers running on coal. That left a large quantity of fly ash as residue. As heating switched to natural gas and cogeneration steam from the 1950s through the 1960s, coal use was largely eliminated.

Former generations of New Yorkers would often refer to receptacles as ash cans, and they were traditionally made of galvanized steel, both useful when contents might contain glowing coals. As trash evolved to colder refuse, plastic bins or bags could be substituted. "[T]he New York City Sanitation Department began encouraging the use of plastic garbage bags in 1969." (<https://archive.nytimes.com/cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/...>)

Net non-coal refuse has increased, but the total, at least as of a decade ago, was still below the early-20th-century high point. Much of the current total however is plastics, and in particular disposable diapers.

I'd had additional sources on this at one point though I can't locate them presently.

This paper discusses composition and confirms the 40% & 80% figures above:

"How New York City Residents Diminished Trash", Paul E Waggoner and Jesse H. Ausubel, The Connecticut Agricultural Experiment Station, New Haven andRockefeller University, New York. October 2003.

<https://phe.rockefeller.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/NYTra...>

The NYT article above also confirms "ash cans".

kazinator 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> The general public cares more for its wallet than the environment.

More or less, yes, but I think it deserves more nuance. Most of the general public is stuck trying to make ends meet, and regard the environment as a problem to be solved by their government and rich corporations.

If you take away their plastic bags and straws, they will make do.

hcarvalhoalves 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

You seem to believe plastic containers are used due to being a more affordable and technically superior solution. That’s a common mistake.

The true reason it’s so cheap and available, is subsidies. $7 trillion as of 2023, to be exact.

Without subsidies, using a non-renewable, expensive to harvest resource, to produce single-use plastic would be an absolutely irrational decision.

https://www.imf.org/en/Blogs/Articles/2023/08/24/fossil-fuel...

incrudible 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

This bogus number comes from putting a value on the supposed environmental cost, but that is not what subsidy means in the economic sense. We already established that if we somehow could globally settle on a price for externalities, alternatives would be competitive, but they would still be intrinsically more expensive.

leptons 4 days ago | parent [-]

Except it isn't a "bogus number". Fossil fuel subsidies are real.

>"It’s not just the US: according to the International Energy Agency, fossil fuel handouts hit a global high of $1 trillion in 2022 – the same year Big Oil pulled in a record $4 trillion of income."

https://www.budget.senate.gov/chairman/newsroom/press/sen-wh...

I say give the subsidies to environmentally friendly producers instead, that don't use fossil fuels as the base material for producing packaging products. $1 trillion in one year is just an unfathomable amount of money to give away to corporations that are already making record profits far above the $1 trillion they already get.

incrudible 3 days ago | parent [-]

If you say "$7 trillion to be exact" and then reduce that to $1 trillion in a followup, the number you initially gave is bogus.

I don't care to figure out exactly how much of that number is similarly misleading, but the article you quoted gives $20 billion for the US in 2022, or 0.3% of the federal budget that year. I don't support these (actual) subsidies, but clearly such numbers are not game changers when the average American spends 10% of their income on energy.

leptons 3 days ago | parent [-]

I never said "$7 trillion to be exact", that was someone else.

The fact is that any subsidies to fossil fuel companies is wrong. They don't need it, and petroleum use in almost all industries is ruining the planet.

incrudible 2 days ago | parent [-]

The people lamenting “the ruination of the planet” would be the first to be eaten by the people starving due to cessation of petroleum use.

leptons 2 days ago | parent [-]

Nobody is advocating for a sudden "cessation of petroleum use". Taking away subsidies from petroleum companies that already make record profits year after year isn't going to cause mass cannibalism, and I'm not sure why you would think that. Replacing petroleum use with sustainable green alternatives also won't cause mass cannibalism - because the energy sources will be replaced with better alternatives. I'm not sure how you jump from "replace petroleum" to "mass cannibalism", it's really quite absurd.

dredmorbius 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

You'd want to factor in externalities as well, both on the extraction side (fossil fuels are phenomenally under-priced, likely by a factor of millions), and disposal (environmental impacts of discarded plastics and pollution during manufacture).

numpad0 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Toxic stuffs are always technologically superior. Always. Fluoride etched Indium-Gallium-Arsenide-Phosphide make great solar cells. Iron-Aluminum-Gold alloy, not so much, if it worked at all.

Human life expectancy literally doubled as we switched from those "less hazardous and more reusable" options to disposable plastics. What justification do you have to go back to that? No one has one.

We need sustainable plastics production. Maybe from agricultural waste or something. Not a transition to a "Glass-and-steel Age". There's no way around that.

ninalanyon 3 days ago | parent [-]

> Human life expectancy literally doubled as we switched from those "less hazardous and more reusable" options to disposable plastics.

Really? And are the two things causally connected in the way you imply? In that period infant mortality was falling which has a dramatic effect on mean life expectancy but is probably not all that greatly affected by disposable plastics.

Also life expectancy in Norway was 72.8 years in 1950-1955. When, if ever, was it only 36.4 years? I'm quite that plastic packaging was rare or non-existent in Norway and the rest of Europe in the early 1950s and life expectancy is certainly not 145.6 years now that it is ubiquitous.

InDubioProRubio 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That will be 5 $ more per butterstick, for the logistics of reusable porcelain butter packages.. which have to be collected, washed and shipped. Which makes it a rich people feel good status-symbol luxury, sadly.

Aloisius 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Your sticks of butter come wrapped in plastic?

I don't think I've ever seen anything other than wax paper or foil, with only tubs of butter, rather than sticks, in plastic.

njtransit 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Up until earlier this year, many "grease proof" papers (e.g. butter wrappers) were PFAS.

Aloisius 4 days ago | parent [-]

PFAS aren't plastics.

And removing them clearly didn't increase the price of sticks of butter by $5.

atombender 4 days ago | parent [-]

A lot of plastic containers use fluorine-treated plastic [1], resulting in the creation of PFAS. The fluorine is used to strengthen the plastic and make it less permeable.

> Since EPA released its investigation, we have learned the disturbing fact that the fluorination of plastic is commonly used to treat hundreds of millions of polyethylene and polypropylene containers each year ranging from packaged food and consumer products that individuals buy to larger containers used by retailers such as restaurants to even larger drums used by manufacturers to store and transport fluids.

[1] https://blogs.edf.org/health/2021/07/07/beyond-paper-pfas/

SoftTalker 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

A lot of "butter" spreads are sold in plastic tubs.

AlotOfReading 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Butter used to be packaged in wax paper, which was (then) biodegradable. The plastic packaging is about branding and shipping, not cost.

potato3732842 4 days ago | parent [-]

It still is.

Well maybe not at Whole Foods, I've never been in one, but at Walmart it's four wax-paper wrapped sticks in a cardboard box.

kaikai 4 days ago | parent [-]

Do you know that it’s waxed paper, and not plasticized paper? Genuine question, since I imagine “wax” paper is either plasticized or using petroleum-based waxes.

riffraff 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Not arguing the general point, for which I agree, but isn't butter commonly sold in aluminum foil wrappers?

vhcr 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Or you know, supermarkets would purchase 50kg blocks of butter and fraction it, clients would then be responsible for bringing their own reusable containers.

gwbas1c 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

No one will actually do that, except the few weirdos who think that it's a good idea.

Remember: "Reusable" containers also have an environmental cost. Each container will be used, on average, X times. Then it will break, or otherwise end its useful life, and end up in a landfill too.

Don't assume that a "reusable" container is better for the environment: My house is full of free, pristine, reusable water bottles that are gifts, souvenirs, ect. My kids go through about 2 reusable water bottles a year, each.

kaikai 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

I’ve had the same steel water bottle for over 10 years. Just because you don’t reuse things well doesn’t mean it’s impossible.

gwbas1c 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

I stress the word "free" here. Most of them were gifts.

See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42214319

syndicatedjelly 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

What were the inputs like to manufacture the steel container?

trollbridge 4 days ago | parent [-]

Probably less than 3.650 plastic bottles, assuming he drinks one per day.

syndicatedjelly 3 days ago | parent [-]

Wish there was a way to know

wholinator2 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I mean, of course it's not perfect. But isn't 2 water bottles in a land fill orders of magnitude better than 300? Isn't the reduction of bulk trash the point? Why would the fact that a glass container can break make it not still a better alternative to 50 plastic ones?

gwbas1c 4 days ago | parent [-]

> But isn't 2 water bottles in a land fill orders of magnitude better than 300?

I think you're making a lot more assumptions than you think:

For example, glass vs glass: My single-use glass container may be recyclable, but the fancy glass reusable one isn't.

Aluminum: Aluminum cans are highly recyclable. Is your metal reusable water bottle recyclable?

Plastic: Ooooh, I won't go there.

layer8 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You’d still have to pay the employee who’d be responsible for cutting and weighing the butter for each customer, and taking payment for the butter (or however else that would work). Or build a machine that does it. Not sure how the cost for that would work out, or the machine’s ecological footprint in comparison.

jdietrich 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Plus all of the food hygiene and logistical implications of handling products in bulk, multiplied by the 30,000 different products in a typical supermarket.

I don't know about the US, but in my country butter is packaged in waxed paper, which is fully biodegradable.

layer8 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

It wouldn’t be that different from how a lot of cheese is being handled where I live. Except they currently put the cuts into plastic wrappings (which are “sealed” by the price sticker) instead of customer-provided containers. On the other hand, for fruits we already do use nets brought by the customer, and the weighing happens at the checkout.

riffraff 4 days ago | parent [-]

In my hometown in Italy you can ask to put your cheese or cold cuts from the counter in a container you provide.

I'm not sure this ends up as a net positive compared to the paper with plastic lining they provide tho, since you have to wash the container at some point.

antisthenes 4 days ago | parent [-]

> I'm not sure this ends up as a net positive compared to the paper with plastic lining they provide tho, since you have to wash the container at some point.

Unlike different kinds of plastic, water is 100% recyclable and doesn't come from nasty petrochemicals in the first place.

riffraff 4 days ago | parent [-]

Water is, but detergent is not

Loughla 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

>multiplied by the 30,000 different products in a typical supermarket

It's almost like we're going to have to reduce our consumption or something. Maybe we don't need 200 different kinds of cereal and 300 different kinds of coffee available every single day.

Tagbert 4 days ago | parent [-]

And due to the labor, it can only handle a low volume of goods with a high markup. When I go there, you end up waiting in line to be helped by the one or two people working that counter. Meanwhile, the cheaper, prepackaged foods can be picked up as needed.

mrguyorama 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

My local supermarket chains already do that. It's called the Deli Counter. The cost is not a big deal.

fragmede 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Butter is, perhaps, a bit sticky for that, but my local co-op has various bulk grains and flour and beans and such that customers can bring their own containers for.

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1minusp 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This. There seems to be one of these announcements every so often, and i havent seen any of them used at scale, or making any kind of dent in the status quo.

4 days ago | parent | prev [-]
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