| ▲ | pllbnk 18 hours ago |
| I hope more than anything Ukrainians will stay strong and persevere. Perhaps not even for themselves or their country, but just to witness the enemy collapse when it all ends. The mere fact that you are Ukrainian and live in Ukraine invokes a certain level of respect. |
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| ▲ | Georgelemental 18 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| > Perhaps not even for themselves or their country, but just to witness the enemy collapse when it all ends. I hope more than anything that Ukraine (and Russia, and Israel, and Palestine, and all the war-torn regions of the world) can one day be free of this ghoulish mindset, that world leaders will choose life instead of worshipping death |
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| ▲ | darkwi11ow 16 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | You're probably was lucky to be born in war-free region, so it is easy to
label things as ghoulish from a position of morally concerned outsider. You was never forced
to leave your homeland and become a refugee, you was not separated from your loved ones
by the border of warring countries, your friends and loved ones were not killed or imprisoned
by invading nazi army.
And it's a good thing for yourself, but you are not in a suitable position to judge Ukrainians or Syrians
or other peoples who have been through it. | | |
| ▲ | Georgelemental 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yes, I am lucky enough to not have experienced mass violence, and also I don't wish it on anyone else. I empathize (though I do not agree) with people who have experienced it, have had their souls worn down by the evil done to them, and who adopt these sorts of attitudes because of that. But there are also people who have had lives just as easy as mine, and yet, from their place of safety and comfort, they egg on war, and cheer when others get killed. I have nothing but contempt for this last group |
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| ▲ | culi 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This consistent oversimplification and allergy to reading actual history and being an informed citizen is what ensures these types of wars will continue | |
| ▲ | jojobas 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yeah wishing to see people who tried to torture and kill you dead is ghoulish. | | |
| ▲ | AIorNot 16 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It’s not ghoulish but it also perpuates a never ending cycle unfortunately- we as in each culture, man, woman are all wronged in so many ways and most have legitimate grievances and are skilled in restarting and kindling those grievances with the next batch of children..ironically religion and nationalism kindles that even further while also providing a base identity to create fellowship between its adherents But is the only way out further death and destruction? Blessed be the peacemakers, as they say | | |
| ▲ | jojobas 16 hours ago | parent [-] | | While the attack on you is ongoing, yes, fighting back is the only way out. Giving up and dying is not peacemaking. | | |
| ▲ | thayne 13 hours ago | parent [-] | | Fighting back to protect yourself is one thing, but exacting revenge leads to a cycle of violence. Especially when it is on an entire nationality or ethnicity. | | |
| ▲ | dmkolobov 13 hours ago | parent [-] | | Honestly, who are you talking to and what are you reading? Most Ukrainians I've met, my parents, their friends, refugees we've met: just want the Russians to go home. | | |
| ▲ | thayne 12 hours ago | parent [-] | | From a few levels up in this thread: > Perhaps not even for themselves or their country, but just to witness the enemy collapse when it all ends To me this sounds like a desire for retribution, not just an end to hostilities. And that is what I am replying to. I have no reason to believe that is an attitude commonly held by Ukrainians. And it seems like that post wasn't even written by a Ukranian. |
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| ▲ | 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | bpavuk 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | on a serious note, it really is. death/execution as a punishment makes no sense. there are fates worse than death for those whose offenses we'd love to spill the blood for. Alcatraz is one such place where those fates are served. and for crimes that are not enough to execute for, bog-standard prisons are enough. they are imperfect, but those willing to change prove themselves there, and a good one should give enough opportunities for a criminal to re-educate, reconsider some of their life choices, and rehabilitate. punishment by death is never the right fit. | | |
| ▲ | jojobas 15 hours ago | parent [-] | | We're not talking a finished crime where "peaceful" punishment is an option. It is an ongoing war, missiles destroy cities and lives. When someone is doing that to you, killing them is usually the only way to stop it. Surrendering is not an option, see Bucha. | | |
| ▲ | bpavuk 15 hours ago | parent [-] | | agree. yet, most of the time, most people have enforcement infra, and having an intent to kill, and not resisting it, is ghoulish. that way, one is perpetuating the very cycle that Europe attempted to stop within itself through coal and steel |
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| ▲ | i_love_retros 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | How can you group Ukraine and Palestine in with Russia and Israel? Russia and Israel are the countries causing the regions to be war torn. They are mass murdering invaders, no better than Nazi Germany. | | |
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| ▲ | nujabe 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
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| ▲ | UpsideDownRide 16 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | No. It was Russias inability to accept sovereignty of Ukraine. How is that hard to comprehend? | | |
| ▲ | nujabe 16 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | We saw what the US did in Venezuela for simply cozying up to China, so I’m not sure what you expected Russia to do when it’s smaller neighbour is inviting its biggest adversaries to settle at its border. | | |
| ▲ | Defletter 15 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Yes, we are in agreement that empires bully their smaller neighbours. This is bad, right? You agree that this is bad... right? | | | |
| ▲ | irlib 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Finland is a small country, and it joined NATO without Russia so much as flinching. Ukraine is nothing like small. It's bigger than France, for instance, with almost 50M people. Attacking it was just plain madness. | | |
| ▲ | bluegatty 12 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It was not madness. If Zelensky fled, Ukraine would have collapsed. It was not an 'attack' so much as it was 'military rolling into Kyiv, nobody stopping them' - like the tanks rolled into Hungary. The anomaly was that they decided to fight back. And Russia's Army was not what it was, and they didn't go in with enough for a proper fight, yada yada. | |
| ▲ | nujabe 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | You know very well that Finland and Ukraine are not the same. Ukrainian territory has been controlled by Moscow for centuries and their ties go much further. > Attacking it was just plain madness. I get why Putin did it. You don’t want Ukraine to become a porcupine like Taiwan or some de facto NATO state.
You have to also remember that this was also a de-Nazification operation, there a lot of Nazis in Ukrainian uniform [1]. > Ukraine is nothing like small. I said smaller. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/05/world/europe/nazi-symbols... |
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| ▲ | axus 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | China is a good example for the US and Russia for what to do. | | |
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| ▲ | jongjong 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Governments are a bad idea. That's the root problem. People are stupid for thinking they need a government. You don't need laws. Laws are designed to oppress. Think in your own life how many times the law harmed you vs helped you... Europe, Russia, Ukraine, USA. These concepts do not exist; they are fictions... But the fiction can kill you if you believe it; just like a schizophrenic having hallucinations; those can kill. If the fiction doesn't benefit you; there really is no incentive for you to believe it, and you shouldn't... You can be sure it's benefiting someone else. Do you want to die for the people who created this nightmare reality? | | |
| ▲ | PsylentKnight 14 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Fictions... that allow you to have clean running water, own personal property and get an education? If you want to see what life looks like without a government, just look at Haiti. Gangs fill the power vacuum when the government loses its monopoly on violence | | | |
| ▲ | arcanemachiner 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You're just describing an alternative fiction with a lot less public buy-in, which from the outside looks about as plausible as the Sovereign Citizen movement that became infamous a few years back. | |
| ▲ | hsuduebc2 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Organized groups which are created historically as opposition to another organized groups are bad idea or these are made up too? | | |
| ▲ | jongjong 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yes it's a bad idea. Everyone should just think individually; "is this fiction working for me personally?" If the answer is no, then you shouldn't support it. If the people from some other organized group which "threatens you" are so brainwashed that they think they benefit from their humongous group (when in fact, they're just treated as a meaningless, tiny number), then you may have to bare the pain of their idiocy for a few generations or so until their masters exploit them out of existence. It's an unfortunate situation. The sheep get slaughtered, but unlike sheep, you can't force the sheeple to breed; and they don't; deep down they know how miserable their existence is. In reality, the group has little power over you as an individual. It derives most of its power from your own compliance. The compliance of others is a lesser factor in your oppression. You don't need to believe in alternative fictions unless you created it. You just need to wait it out and pretend hard! Create your own fiction, exploit every loophole! Let the idiots realize their idiocy on their own and rebel on their own later once they realize they were fooled. You have to be a radical realist, wait it out and bare all the costs in the meantime. It's better to bare the pain of system dysfunction for decades than to go along with it and find yourself at the front of the firing line later, fighting against what you helped to create. | | |
| ▲ | TheOtherHobbes 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | >In reality, the group has little power over you as an individual. I'm sure everyone in Ukraine is delighted that the nightly air raids are a mere narrative device, and they can choose to opt out of them by pretending hard. |
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| ▲ | ninkendo 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Let me just try to understand your position here: Ukrainians are warmongers? What does that make the Russians? | | |
| ▲ | hsuduebc2 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | Ordinary angle from people which needs to sound smart or have a need to relativize everything so they end up blaming the victim. "Everybody is bad, nobody is good so then just stop bothering us with defending yourself. It would not hurt if you wouldn't even start in the first place" |
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| ▲ | 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | phainopepla2 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
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