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hbn 7 hours ago

A funny quirk of English I never noticed until I started learning Spanish:

In Spanish, to say for example, "he is a doctor," you would say "él es médico." Which more literally translates to "he is doctor," which feels unintuitive coming from English. Spanish DOES have an equivalent for "a" - "un/una", so the natural thing for an English speaker to say would be "él es UN médico", but I understand that to be awkward/unnatural.

But then I realized, when you say the same sentence in plural - "they are doctors" - you don't have an article. You don't say "they are some doctors" (I had to Google, apparently "some" isn't an article anyway?)

So Spanish ends up more consistent - Singular: "Él es médico." Plural: "Ellos son medicos."

Unlike English - Singular: "He is a doctor." Plural: "They are doctors."

bradrn 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It’s simply that, in English, there is no indefinite plural article — or, equivalently, that the indefinite plural article is null. So ‘they are doctors’ is consistent with the behaviour of plural nouns elsewhere.

Contrast this with, for example, French, where the indefinite singular un(e) correspond to the indefinite plural des: La boulangerie vend des baguettes ‘the bakery sells baguettes’ (whereas English cannot say *‘a baguettes’). But as in Spanish, professions take no article either way: Il est médecin / Ils sont médecins. So all three languages are self-consistent, just in their own ways.

hbn 6 hours ago | parent [-]

English still feels hard to explain when things sound natural and when they don't.

You can say "there are some vendors in the street" and it sounds normal. But if you were to say "they are some vendors" it sounds weird. It's pretty firmly more natural to say "they are vendors."

bradrn 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Oh, certainly, as is the case for any language!

In the case you mention, I note that Huddleston & Pullum in their Cambridge Grammar of the English Language specifically call ‘some’ an existential determiner. As is usual with them, this is an insightful observation: you use ‘some <noun>’ specifically in order to say that there exists some set of things drawn from some larger set or in some configuration. You say ‘there are some vendors in the street’ because you’re drawing attention to their existence in the street (and indeed ‘there is/are’ is the prototypical English expression for existentials). You don’t say ‘they are some vendors’, because the use of ‘they’ implies some specific group of vendors already known to both speaker and listener — highlighting their existence again feels weird.

(Of course, this analysis is still incomplete. At some point you simply have to list all the specific ways in which ‘some’ is used — which, indeed, is exactly what Huddleston & Pullum do. Furthermore I’m certain that there is some discourse context in which ‘they are some vendors’ would be natural, even though I haven’t managed to think of one just yet.)

schoen 5 hours ago | parent [-]

I'm not sure this is the best achievable example, but maybe:

"The street vendors have decided to oppose the ordinance."

"But I thought Mike and Jacob said they support the ordinance. And Julia! Aren't they vendors?"

"They are some vendors, but most vendors take the opposite position."

subarctic 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

That one is more natural without the word "some" imo

schoen 30 minutes ago | parent [-]

I agree, so it's still not an ideal example.

cwnyth 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

More simply: "Some vendors support the ordinance, but most oppose it."

jrmg 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

And “they are some vendors” usually actually means “they are excellent vendors”!

1-more 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Really depends on how you say “some”

rectang an hour ago | parent [-]

I will die on the hill that "SOME PIG" from Charlotte's Web was merely an existential determiner.

thayne 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Interstingly it is the same in german, you would say "Er ist Arzt" not "Er ist ein Arzt". Which makes me wonder why english uses an indefinite article there, since it doesn't seem to be either germanic or romantic in origin.

1-more 3 hours ago | parent [-]

This was the root of the overblown Kennedy gaffe where he said “ich bin ein Berliner” instead of “ich bin berliner.”

arlcode 2 hours ago | parent [-]

The thing is that doesn't even sound wrong and I don't think any native speaker would object to the article when used with a place of origin/belonging in a speech.

It emphasizes the statement if you ask me.

Only many years after learning of the speech I read online that it's allegedly "a gaffe".

tzs 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You are right most of the time for English, but today that should be "Arrr! He be the sawbones".

Spain had pirates too, but I don't speak Spanish so had to ask an LLM. It suggested that today in Spanish it would be "Él es el matasanos del barco". Any authentic Spanish pirates who can verify or correct that?

ggambetta 15 minutes ago | parent [-]

Not a pirate but a Spanish speaker.

Interestingly,

He's a doctor [in general] -> el es médico

He's the ship's doctor [this specific ship] -> el es el médico del barco

He's a ship doctor [generally works in ships] -> el es médico de barco

lozf 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Certainly English can be odd. It can usually be understood through tough thorough thought though.

asveikau 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The further back you go in Indo-European languages, they don't have articles. It's a relatively recent innovation.

So for example latin didn't have them. Eventually they evolved from ille and unus.

Much of Eastern Europe still does not have articles.

Joker_vD 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The whole (over)insistence on using the determiners in general seems to be a relatively recent innovation as well, the articles being a large part of it. I am talking about constructions like "he shoved his hand into his pocket and pulled out his wallet" — why not just "he shoved hand into pocket and pulled out wallet"? The context is pretty self-evident, and if you really need to specify some deviation from it (he shoved his hand into someone else's pocket, but still pulled out his wallet), you always can do it by, you know, using the determiners; except now they actually will be non-redundant.

podocarp 2 minutes ago | parent [-]

Indeed that begins to sound like so called caveman talk. He shove hand in pocket and pull out wallet.

rawling 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> The further back you go in Indo-European languages, they don't have articles.

Heh, while we're discussing English, this annoys me.

"The further back you go" is a continuum, the effect you describe should be too.

> The further back you go, the fewer Indo-European languages have articles.

Or match a discontinuity with a discontinuity.

> If you go back beyond a certain point, Indo-European languages don't have articles.

asveikau 5 hours ago | parent [-]

I actually meant it as a continuum. In classical latin, ille and unus exist, but they are not articles. In the vulgar latin period circa 800ad, they are pretty close to articles. In modern romance they're articles.

You can't say "beyond a certain point" because what point that is varies with geography.

cvhc 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There is no plural equivalent of a/an. So where you would use a/an becomes no-article for plural nouns.

emmelaich 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You can say "they are the doctors" -- but yeah it's a slightly different meaning.

BTW in German, it's a fun distinction. The old "ich bin (ein) Berliner". (or hamburger or frankfurter...)

al_borland 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I suppose you could say, “they are both doctors” or “they are all doctors.”

Those sound fine to me, depending on context.

aldanor 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes, but then it may sound as if "both/all" is being highlighted which it isn't in the neutral "they are doctors" statement

pigpag 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Over-learning Portuguese (as a beginner) almost make me feel that "He is a doctor" should become "They are as doctors".

nutjob2 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In "They are doctors" the 'they' is the subject and you don't need articles. 'They' is plural.

But in "The doctors are female" you do because the subject is some specific group of doctors. It's singular because its a single group of things.

Joker_vD 4 hours ago | parent [-]

> you don't need articles. 'They' is plural.

But why not? Plural indefinite article exists in some languages, why not in English?

Onavo 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Is French different? Il est un médecin? Il est médecin? Ils sont médecins sounds fine.

TacticalCoder 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Nope, it's basically as in spanish:

> Il est un médecin?

Nope that's bogus french: you say "il est médecin". But you can say: "c'est un médecin".

makeitdouble 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> That's bogus

To expand a bit, it's a perfectly valid use, but most people will forgo having an extra word that has no role in the phrase.

"Il est médecin" and "Il est un médecin" are perfectly equivalent so people will choose the shorter.

The "un" comes back when using the noun as an adjective isn't possible anymore, e.g. by adding an actual adjective "Il est un bon médecin"