| ▲ | rakejake 5 hours ago |
| Yeah, I think you can't just throw money randomly at problems and expect results unless you know a line of attack that can get you all the way. OpenAI chose the line of attack only after it became known to them via rumors. They "front-ran" the researchers. |
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| ▲ | cmiles8 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Yes. What the headlines hailed as an AGI discovery the facts show more to be someone spending years mining for gold, rumor gets to OpenAI that there might be gold in this specific place, they mine there and instantly discover gold, then tell the world they’ve developed the worlds best gold finding/mining machine. Separate from all the allegations of more nefarious actions and ethical issues, that’s the most charitable version of what happened here. |
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| ▲ | Romario77 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | they threw it on all the millenial math problems (I think there are 6 at this point unsolved, well, 5 now). And according to them at some point they saw that one was close to being solved, so they pointed all the agents at it. The same thing happens to humans - at this time there are no simple problems left, so solving the hard ones requires using prior knowledge and attempts at solving things. | | |
| ▲ | nrdvana 20 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Yeah but the one they decided the AI was close to solving may have been so because the researchers' progress on this problem became part of the training data for that AI... |
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| ▲ | eieje1 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| You can’t do anything novel with these models from scratch and let it fly. I’ve observed something over the past few months Work on something novel -> llm is kinda useless and low value-add -> Keep at it and in the process feed it more information -> keep doing this periodically -> a few months go by and you realise the model outputs are almost like-for-like regurgitations of what was inputted in some prior period. Once it’s accumulated new info can it produce something automated that is somewhat useful? Sure. But by itself - absolutely not. I clearly see humans will be needed - the best ones that is. For ‘rote work’ and stuff that is not IP sensitive firms will be ok with employees putting that as inputs into models. But I’d wary about trusting the labs. They will push the letter of the law to the max. Personally I’ve stopped doing anything novel with these models. If I do use a model on something adjacent but not totally novel I have to craft the inputs in a strategic way not to give much away. I’d wager firms will soon realise this and that growth rate of revenues of the frontier labs will become questionable. The economic cost that firms have brought out thus far is only financial. There’s a whole bunch of other costs people aren’t talking about. |
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| ▲ | seafoam a minute ago | parent | next [-] | | Agree all. And as the revenues become questionable, the frontier labs practices will necessarily become (more) questionable. Vicious cycle. To avert that dynamic, the frontier labs must deflect and otherwise act to prevent this controversy from breaking through. Both to the general public, but also more specifically to the firms' decision-makers. All of whom are generally aware of the IP issues, and some of whom are aware of what happened with Cursor and Figma, but with few exceptions have not yet themselves acted to protect their property. | |
| ▲ | chermi 29 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think you stopped at the wrong time with the wrong perspective. Why can't that info accumulation part also be made more self-contained? I guess I'm having trouble unraveling your experience and personal usage vs. what you're concluding about the labs. | |
| ▲ | vonneumannstan an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | This doesn't follow for me. There are what, Dozens or Erdos tier problems that got solved with no progress for decades? How does that factor in to your view? |
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| ▲ | chermi 32 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Almost but not quite I think. You can throw money at parts of problems. I think it's helpful to think it kind of like supercomputer MD/MC or electronic structure calculations. A tool that can get you valuable answers but not necessarily aid understanding. Simulations can be used to aid understanding also, and are integral to theory development. In the same way the approach to this result is. |
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| ▲ | dcre 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Worth noting they claim they did not choose the line of attack. Of course we don’t know whether that is true. |
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| ▲ | rakejake 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Plausible deniability - The line of attack is in their sessions/prompts data. Just make the prompt pointed enough that the search space is tractable and use your ginormous compute. > "Of course we don’t know whether that is true" Yep. Who is verifying these claims? We all know how trustworthy Altman & Co are. |
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| ▲ | whimsicalism 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| but the researchers were also largely relying on AI |
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| ▲ | cmiles8 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | “relying on” is misleading here relative to what the researchers have said. If I write a book and pass it through a spelling and polish checker, I still wrote the book and its core IP. I didn’t “rely on” the tool to create the IP. | | |
| ▲ | whimsicalism 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | it’s much more like you come up with the premise and someone else writes the book. the released prompts for other foundational problems (like unit distance) prove that. | |
| ▲ | vouaobrasil 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The tools the researchers used though was much more than an spellchecker, because spellcheckers don't come up with chains of reasoning for the arguments in the book. The LLMs did in the case of the Navier-Stokes problem. | |
| ▲ | vonneumannstan an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | If this were the case the problem would not have remained unsolved for this long. A new spell checker is not what cracked the problem. |
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| ▲ | hunterpayne an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The researchers were driving prompts and trying to actually do math. The OpenAI effort was a pure brute force attempt. I'm not even sure an LLM was actually involved. I think they just used their hardware to run the matrix multiplies required by the search for a counter example. Perhaps some clever approach guided the search but that seems to be about it. | |
| ▲ | pphysch 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | In the same way you rely on a keyboard or touchscreen to type this comment. It doesn't mean the tool is the brain behind the work. | | |
| ▲ | Romario77 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | that's not how AI was used in this case. It's more like a professor with assistants. Professor says the assistants - why don't you dig in this direction, I have a hunch it might produce something valuable. And AI assistant does just that, proving or disproving a hunch. This would take the professor a lot of time if doing by themselves. | |
| ▲ | vouaobrasil 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Keyboards don't suggest chains of reasoning or words to type. When I press the K key, I know exactly what will happen. It's just a translation layer that gives an output known ahead of time and thus does not impinge upon the creativity of putting words together. A better example would be playing chess against a player slightly stronger than me and using a chess computer to suggest some good moves. I could win, but it certianly wouldn't be just my brain that wins. It would be an amalgamation of my brain with a machine that suggests good moves. One cannot simply reason by analogy. | | |
| ▲ | visarga an hour ago | parent [-] | | > Keyboards don't suggest chains of reasoning or words to type My iPhone keyboard does |
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| ▲ | whimsicalism 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | frankly don’t know how to reply to these sorts of comments anymore | | |
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