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sjoedev an hour ago

We’re building data centers in the U.S. at an unprecedented and increasing rate [1]. Is it so hard to imagine that something which was fine at one scale may begin to cause issues at some massively higher scale?

If I drink one glass of wine per day, it’s probably fine. If I drink three bottles per day, I’m gonna start having problems.

[1] https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/monthly-spending-data-cen...

WarmWash an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Yeah, but when we account for that scale, and look at resource usage, datacenters aren't topping the charts, or even really getting in the top 5, for anything.

You have people who eat meat at every meal losing their mind over water usage and people who set their AC to 68 panicking over energy usage.

kennywinker an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Eating meat fills my belly. Setting my AC to 68 keeps me cool. A data center costs my community money, damages the environment directly and indirectly, and further enriches a few already rich people.

Can you spot the difference?

ben_w a minute ago | parent | next [-]

> Eating meat fills my belly.

So do many other things which use less water.

The estimates I've seen place the water consumption of water at such a low level that a whole month subscription consumes roughly as much water as 1-120 grams* of beef.

> Setting my AC to 68 keeps me cool.

What, is 70 not good enough?

Air con, and basically all things connected to the power grid, also "costs [your] community money, damages the environment directly and indirectly, and further enriches a few already rich people."

* yes, one to one hundred and twenty, there's that much uncertainty in the estimates for the AI.

mr_00ff00 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

People say this and then use AI for literally everything they do.

cryzinger 29 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

In my experience, there's not a ton of overlap between people who say this and people who use AI for everything they do... but most people who say this do use social media, cloud storage, on-demand video streaming, and plenty of other things that rely on data centers :)

Not for nothing that YouTube alone is responsible for a double-digit amount of all internet traffic.

xboxnolifes 34 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think this is just projection.

dasil003 an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Consider that there may be large populations doing both, but the overlap might be less than the internet jockey concludes via finger-in-the-wind hypocrisy check.

jmmcd an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

AC at 68F is obnoxious and wasteful. At least data centres enable me to communicate with distant colleagues, watch enriching movies, and use very strong AI tools to accelerate my research.

AnthonyMouse 21 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

> AC at 68F is obnoxious and wasteful.

It's actually significantly more environmentally friendly than heating to above 68F in the winter in most cases, since most AC is done with heat pumps but most heating is oil/gas (100% fossil fuel consumption) or resistive electric heaters (dramatically less efficient than heat pumps). On top of that AC use aligns strongly with solar generation output while heating load does the opposite, which means that even when heating is done with electricity it comes disproportionately from gas turbines at natural gas peaker plants.

atmavatar 17 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Data centers also enable the NSA to store the metadata and contents of every phone call you make and police to (without a warrant) to track anyone who's walked in front of your doorbell or many street corners in your city. They also store all the location data your phone collects for Google or Apple, nearly your entire internet history collected surreptitiously because many sites automatically use your GMail or Facebook logins, and your entire purchase history collected via Visa or MasterCard.

And even better: all of that data is aggregated together and stored in its entirety several times over across multiple data centers because everyone shares your data with everyone else, such that if any single of more than a dozen data centers is ever compromised, it all gets leaked to whomever compromised it.

himata4113 an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

It directly and indirectly increases your quality of life and it is something you use every single day.

jimbo808 an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Thank you sir, may I have another?

jstummbillig an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Oh, it's absolutely easy to imagine. That is what should give us pause. We are fantastic at imagining things. We are less fantastic at being reasonable.

mr_00ff00 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Valid point, but this looks like (roughly) 1 billion to 5 billion in a period of 10 years.

5x in a decade. The way it’s talked about you would think it’s orders of magnitude.

larpingscholar an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Rack densities have also more than doubled just in last 5 years

pessimizer 13 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

It's an order of magnitude.

savanaly an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Complete tangent, but my impression is that one glass of wine per day is "fine", but you're still statistically better off in a non-trivial way by going down to zero. Not counting the benefits of course.... :)

mediaman an hour ago | parent [-]

To continue to take us off topic, there is actually pretty limited evidence that this is true.

It is true that wine doesn't do anyone any good (unless you count it making people more social or something). But the effects of one glass a night is indistinguishable from zero. There are definitely statistically significant morbidity effects at 3.

I've been shocked reading public health proclamations that "anything above zero" is bad, and then reading the actual underlying paper they refer to, which clearly states exactly the opposite finding. I think it is an extension of the public policy belief that the public cannot be trusted with moderation, and so therefore must be communicated to in absolutes, and nobody will read the underlying paper anyway.

victorbjorklund 13 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Most modern research I have seen says there is no safe levels of alcohol where you will get no negative effects on your body. 7 glasses of wine per week isn’t that low. Is it worse than sometimes eating crap food? Maybe not. But it isn’t without risks.

AndrewKemendo 27 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

According to the best longitudinal study from the WHO There is no safe level of alcohol consumption (1). Every molecule of alcohol is measurably bad for you physically

People want to conflate their personal desires and perceived social benefits with health benefits because mental health and physical health have overlaps

However they need to be separate to actually make a claim about alcohol as there are millions of people in functional communities that reject alcohol and have non of the negative effects

(1) https://www.who.int/europe/news/item/04-01-2023-no-level-of-...

pessimizer 7 minutes ago | parent [-]

> According to the best longitudinal study from the WHO There is no safe level of alcohol consumption

This would be a misquote, but you didn't use quotes. The WHO said that they "can't identify" a safe level of alcohol consumption and that there are no studies that would indicate a safe level of alcohol consumption.

> The new WHO statement clarifies: currently available evidence cannot indicate the existence of a threshold at which the carcinogenic effects of alcohol “switch on” and start to manifest in the human body.

I could see why you would say that from this:

> “We cannot talk about a so-called safe level of alcohol use. It doesn’t matter how much you drink – the risk to the drinker’s health starts from the first drop of any alcoholic beverage. The only thing that we can say for sure is that the more you drink, the more harmful it is – or, in other words, the less you drink, the safer it is,” explains Dr Carina Ferreira-Borges,

But that seems to be a mixture of some language difficulty and some intentional hyperbole.

joaovnunes 38 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

isn't one glass a night already lack of moderation? by drinking a glass a night, or even weekly such as every friday night you're creating habit and dependency.

Carrok 12 minutes ago | parent [-]

Everything in moderation, especially moderation.

wat10000 41 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's not so hard to imagine that something which was fine at the old scale may cause issues at the new. At the same time, it's also not so hard to imagine that the new scale still isn't particularly large and that there are about a million more important things to worry about.

The question isn't whether it's possible for something to become problematic past a certain scale. The question is whether data centers are at that point, or will be anytime soon.

The actual facts and figures that are presented in opposition tend to be stripped of the larger context, which makes me skeptical. The graph you linked looks wild, but in a country that spends two trillion dollars per year on all construction, is the jump from $1 billion/month to $4 billion/month very important?

Forgeties79 16 minutes ago | parent [-]

I feel like this has to be reiterated every single AI discussion. Anytime someone points out something it enables, someone has to go “well that existed before” as if the scale is somehow 1) irrelevant and 2) not orders of magnitude larger.

If you gave me one night, a pot of coffee, and few scruples, I could probably dump hundreds if not thousands of fake posts on the internet. Hundreds would easily break through and who knows, a handful might even go viral on Twitter. Yeah I could do that 5 years ago, but not nearly at the same scale. Maybe a few dozen?

Back to DCs: it’s like saying “well we had coal fire plants years ago.” Ok…well there are more now generating way more power and spewing way more pollution. It’s not the same situation anymore. This DC build out is massive.

nkrebs13 an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Your point would stand better without the insincere analogy.

sndodnfinr an hour ago | parent [-]

Insincere analogy. F-ing lol. You AI Slopologists are all the same. Can’t see the forest from the trees. Or was that insincere as well? :eye roll: