| ▲ | Judge sets framework for Nine PBS to retrieve archival data(current.org) |
| 89 points by qingcharles 5 hours ago | 37 comments |
| |
|
| ▲ | hn_throwaway_99 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| I think stories like these highlight the need for clearer (not necessarily more) regulations around contractor/subcontractor/client relationships and what happens when one of them goes tits up. There were rampant issues in the fintech world that exploded when Synapse, a banking as a service provider, went bankrupt and their ledger didn't match what partner banks had in their accounts. End users were told "your deposits are FDIC insured", but in bankruptcy court the judge was sort of at a loss over how to rectify things - the banks weren't insolvent, and the FDIC (rightfully) said "hey, this isn't our problem, our regulated entities are in compliance". Looks like a similar situation happened here, where the contractors are both doing the "not it" thing. I feel like a lot of tech innovation and "business process innovation" over the past 15 years was just ignoring regulations that were built up over decades, only discovering the reasons for those regulations when the tide went out and seeing that lots of companies had been pantsless the whole time. |
| |
| ▲ | toofy an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | > … was just ignoring regulations that were built up over decades, only discovering the reasons for those regulations … yeah it’s unreal to me how many people who imagine themselves intelligent are just now discovering the equivalent to why we make wheels round. they never think to ask “why does regulation x exist?” its absolutely crazypants. | | |
| ▲ | mywittyname 39 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > they never think to ask “why does regulation x exist?” They do, but they think the answer is always some riff on, "government overreach because bureaucrats need to justify their jobs." That attitude has been firmly ingrained into (at least) a generation of people. | | |
| ▲ | Hobadee 7 minutes ago | parent [-] | | TBF, a solid 50% of regulation is probably government overreach. The problem is that it's intrinsically tangled with the other 50% (crossing various specializations/laws/departments) that isn't; you can't undo one without undoing both. |
|
| |
| ▲ | ww520 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Whoever claims "your deposits are FDIC insured" needs to be prosecuted as fraud and scam artists. “Your” the company’s deposits in the bank is FDIC insured. My deposit with you the company is not. When the bank goes belly up, your deposit is FDIC secured up to the account limit which is tiny in the scale of things. When your company goes belly up, my deposit is gone. | | |
| ▲ | dylan604 an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | > When the bank goes belly up, your deposit is FDIC secured up to the account limit which is tiny in the scale of things. The FDIC is meant to protect individual people from loosing all of their money from the collapse of a bank, currently at $250k. If you have more wealth than that yet have it all as cash in a single account, then, you're pretty much an ID10T. For regular mere mortals, that's a helluva lot better than a bank telling you to pound sand when they collapse. If you're a business thinking the gov't is meant to protect you, then you are also delusional. | |
| ▲ | recursivecaveat an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | My understanding is that they split the accounts to keep up with the limit. Otherwise though yeah, FDIC will only step in for the extreme minority scenario of failure by the underlying bank. You absolutely should not be allowed to advertise FDIC insurance unless it goes all the way to the consumer. |
| |
| ▲ | s1artibartfast 43 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Why do you think the laws and regulations are unclear? This seems to be following the completely standard and expected process. Contractor goes belly up, so you go to court and a judge who confirms they were a custodian of your data and you are entitled to retreive it. Same would be the case if I was leasing equipment to someone and they had it at a storage lot. If the middle party dies or goes bankrupt, I get a court order to claim it from their other possessions. | |
| ▲ | kmeisthax an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | If you talk to a lawyer (or, worse, a legislator, many of whom are also lawyers and all of whom are surrounded by them), they will insist up and down that this is a pretty standard custodial arrangement dispute and that the system worked as intended. And I would, very begrudgingly agree with that. The legal system is perfectly capable of recognizing stolen property no matter how many layers of abstraction you put it through. The problem is always in the fact that the dispute resolution process is too expensive[0] to be useful. If you are defrauded for $10,000; but the legal fees for your representation will exceed that; then that juice ain't worth the squeeze. See also: Bricks and Minifigs. In the Nine PBS case the judge correctly recognized Iron Mountain as a constructive bailee of Nine PBS's property and created a framework to retrieve their data. The problem is that this took almost half a year of legal work to get to the obvious outcome to make Nine PBS whole. In Synapse's case, the problem is slightly different, because Synapse is not a bank, they are a reseller of banking services. That's the whole idea behind "fintech[1]" - that we can sell banking services while dodging all the regulatory compliance designed specifically to stop these kinds of issues so long as a real bank is involved. Saying their deposits are FDIC insured is like saying you have auto insurance because you happen to be riding a taxi. Technically correct but misleading and fraudulent. FDIC insurance doesn't cascade into your customers' accounts, because if it did, you'd be a bank. [0] There's a similar problem with Bitcoin, where only a certain number of transactions can ever be processed per hour and thus it bottlenecks any higher-layer process that intends to use the Bitcoin blockchain as a settlement or dispute resolution system. [1] "Fintech" in particular is meaningless as all banks are tech companies. They were one of the first adopters of electronic computers, online transaction processing, and a whole load of other things that seem utterly quaint now. EDIT: changed "years" to "almost half a year", I was too lazy to do another Google search | | |
| ▲ | Jtsummers 37 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > The problem is that this took years of legal work to get to the obvious outcome to make Nine PBS whole. Not years. This whole "saga" has been going on for 5 months, and the suit against Iron Mountain was only filed on 28 July, so it just took weeks to come to this current arrangement. There's no reason to make such gross, falsifiable exaggerations (or, less generously, lies) as you've made in your comment. | | |
|
|
|
| ▲ | js2 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Open Source Storage (OSS), the vendor in question, was around for two decades before going out of business last year. The first and last archived versions of its web site: https://web.archive.org/web/20040628023451/https://www.ossto... https://web.archive.org/web/20250329140721/https://www.ossto... (The first version isn't too exciting. It's a broken Flash site.) |
|
| ▲ | johnnyApplePRNG 9 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| https://archive.is/OBGDn |
|
| ▲ | dredmorbius an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Earlier coverage (St. Louis KETC / Nine PBS sues Iron Mountain for data access): "Nine PBS sues Iron Mountain over blocked access to archival data"
<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49285418> This is working out largely as I'd suggested it should, albeit with a court's intervention. See: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49293058>. I'd still argue that I.M. should have anticipated this situation, and have some process in place to address it. "See a court" might well be part of that process. |
|
| ▲ | boscillator 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The ruling seems fair and reasonable, and I'm surprised they couldn't come to the same conclusion without a court. |
| |
| ▲ | Jtsummers 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Sometimes these things can go better for companies like Iron Mountain when there's a court order/decision in place to cover them. Nine PBS, in order to access their own data, could end up accessing data belonging to other people and that may not be properly covered under existing contracts and policies. It's a risk for Iron Mountain if this happens. Having a court decision and court set procedures that essentially force them to participate and also establishes third party review of the data will give them some cover if one of those other clients of the now defunct OSS discovers that Nine PBS accessed or inadvertently retained their data. | |
| ▲ | bluGill 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | A court is needed for cover since it is possible that sometimes else's data will be seen or even corrupted in the process. This way they can say they were doing what the court asked for. That is legal cover for everyone to do what they want. Also legal limits on what they can do. That is how I interpret the article anyway | |
| ▲ | trebligdivad 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | They couldn't really - I doubt Iron Mountain actually objected to giving the data, but in the end it probably wasn't in a position to know what data belonged to PBS and what belonged to other clients of OSS and you'd get very worried if a data storage company gave a companies data to someone else without authorisation. | | |
| ▲ | plorg 22 minutes ago | parent [-] | | An Iron Mountain employee is quoted in this article saying basically that. |
| |
| ▲ | mikeryan an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | It’s likely that Iron Mountain needed a court order in order to do this with legal cover. It’s just a data warehouse and OSS likely had multiple clients data and backups. Iron Mountain can’t let one third party go searching through a defunct customers stuff that has a bunch of additional third parties property intermingled with it. Too many unknowns and potentially litigious third parties. |
|
|
| ▲ | walrus01 21 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I previously commented on this when a different, earlier news article and it wasn't clear at the time if the storage company was a colocation customer, or a dedicated server customer of Iron Mountain: ============================================= (from 4 days ago) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49293326 The news article is really not clear about whether this was, relative to the company "OSS": a) OSS is a colocation customer with its own hardware colocating it inside an Iron Mountain datacenter. In which OSS owned the bare metal and paid iron mountain for rack space and power. or b) OSS is a dedicated hardware customer of Iron Mountain running a service on bare metal owned by Iron Mountain, and has gone defunct, leaving behind a bunch of servers/storage arrays that would in normal circumstances get wiped/reprovisioned. From the point of view of a customer of OSS (PBS), that's two extremely different things. If it's scenario A, I don't see how PBS has any claim against Iron Mountain. Your typical datacenter colo host for bare metal hardware owned by a customer has no involvement whatsoever in the condition or operation of the data, operating system, filesystems, RAID arrays, ZFS, etc of how the customer has set up their environment. Nor any ability to do anything with it. A colocation host that hasn't been paid for its rack space and power will typically have clauses in its colo contracts allowing for seizure and sale of abandoned hardware after a certain period of time. ==================================== New commentary: The new news article seems to shed a bit more light on it, it sounds like it's scenario B, in which OSS never owned the hardware (they just set up the operating system/software config on it), and was renting it from Iron Mountain. In this scenario it's much more realistic to expect to be able to get some data back. And as the new news article says, PBS is paying all of the overdue bills in order to be able to do so. Ordinarily a dedicated server provider that is renting rackmount bare metal hardware to people has a very automated and fast re-provisioning process, if you don't pay your bill, the terms of the contract let them wipe the servers within a fairly short amount of time and reallocat them to new customers. Now if it had been scenario A, I think that there would have been very little opportunity for judicial remedy in an order requiring Iron Mountain to do anything, because Iron Mountain would have had no control over what a failing/bankrupt/dead colocation customer did with the data on their servers. PBS might have had a claim against the principals of the OSS company, but then you get into the "blood from a stone" problem of trying to enforce a judgment against people who have no assets or ability to pay. |
|
| ▲ | s1artibartfast 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Im curious why this topic has been popping up in the news. It seems like a bog standard contractor/subcontractor obligation case. |
| |
| ▲ | dylan604 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | If Iron Mountain made a deal with PBS-affiliate, they'd be breaking the terms of the contract with their customer (the fact it is defunct is just an asterisk). If you were an Iron Mountain client and one of your customers made an end run around you to go directly to Iron Mountain because they refused to pay your bill, you'd be pissed at Iron Mountain. By solving this as they have done, Iron Mountain can assure other clients they will not just let a third person circumvent their clients. They can now say they only did it by a court order even if they were more than willing to accept the asterisk and do it on principle. Everyone is happy. Everyone is whole. | | |
| ▲ | s1artibartfast an hour ago | parent [-] | | Thats my impression too. Iron mountain is doing exactly what I would want if I had data with them. If you are wharehousing data, you dont just let your customer's customer come in, look around, and take whatever they want. Even if they have a sob story. You ask for a court order with specifics. |
| |
| ▲ | telotortium 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The initial reporting implied it was some catastrophic data loss, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Universal_Studios_fire. The truth, while concerning, is a lot more boring. Also some articles and people on social media were unclear that it was just a single PBS station involved, rather than all PBS content. I saw comments that thought that all the archives for Sesame Street were lost. | | |
| ▲ | kotaKat 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Apparently PBS doesn't have some kind of massive conglomerate backup or archives of things that its member stations produce. It's up to every station to archive or back up their own stuff. No standardization as to storage formats, NASes, tapes, or anything. Sometimes things are transmitted in painful ways like rebroadcast in off hours over microwave links between members so they can re-record what they lost. Plus the endless game of "hey does anyone have that one obscure episode of this one program we made?" to your colleagues... | | |
| |
| ▲ | anigbrowl 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Archival/secure storage is big business with big liability headaches if you make a bad decisiion. | |
| ▲ | Barbing 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | A non-profit in a deeply unfair situation tugs at the heartstrings. | | |
| ▲ | s1artibartfast an hour ago | parent [-] | | What is unfair? It seems completely normal and what courts are for sorting out. Iron mountain is acting exactly how I would want them to if they were storing data for me. If you are wharehousing data, you dont just let your customer's customer come in, look around, and take whatever they want. Even if they have a sob story. You ask for a court order with specifics. |
| |
| ▲ | doctorpangloss 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | This audience thinks data center operators are Jedi. |
|
|
| ▲ | Magicrafter13 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| > These archives represent an important part of our region’s history, and we look forward to ensuring their preservation and protection through the Court-approved process. Apparently you didn't find them important enough to have backups. Hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in net income and they couldn't afford a cheap NAS with 4 disks. Incredible. |
| |
| ▲ | MadnessASAP 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | They did, they contracted with a vendor to store and backup the data. If that is insufficient then just about every customer of AWS, Azure, GCP, OCP, and every other managed storage provider is guilty of the same sin. | | |
| ▲ | aaronmdjones 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I have to agree with GP here, this is pretty incredible. They contracted with a vendor to store their data, not to back it up. It's not a backup if you can lose it in the same instant you lose the data. You're right, they are. If your data can't survive a single storage host vanishing from existence, you don't have a backup. If your data can't survive one predictable or regularly occurring catastrophic act of nature, you don't have a backup. If your data can't survive a piece of malware -- with all of the credentials you have -- erasing it, you don't have a backup. EDIT: Also, if you don't regularly test that your backups actually work, you probably don't have a backup. Lots of companies learn that one the hard way. | | |
| ▲ | jambalaya8 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | If you do not have at least one, but usually two copies of a backup in your physical possession, you do not have a backup. |o-o| |
| |
| ▲ | stronglikedan 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Then that is just the 1 in 3-2-1 backups, and neglecting the 3 & 2 is a sin (wrt backup strategies). |
| |
| ▲ | Barbing 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I wonder the proportion of companies who store backups with a minimum of two separate vendors. Low? |
|